/lit/ - Literature

>>22401825
The West, as a whole, is ashamed of its own existence, and all artistic and cultural works it produces reflects this fact. Sincerity has been killed by cynicism, and everything is a nasty, sordid, self-loathing parody of what it ought to be.

>>22401888
It's all built on blood, sweat and tears. A sour realization but was bound to happen at some point

>>22401825
Too many uthors are just trying to appeal to the academy or pose as intellectuals
They forgot about their readers and why they like fantady in the first place

>>22403616
What would you say is the reason readers like fantasy?

>>22401825
Art has been consumed by capitalism. It's not noticable when there's a greater surpluss akin to what we saw with boomers, but once things start to go down the drain, the art is the first to suffer.

The reason why "West" is ashamed of itself is related to economics. Industrial Society and its culture has ended up reaching its natural limit. Because of that there's now a conflict of interest between western ideal and realities of capitalism, this inevitably causes the more powerful impulse within culture - namely the capitlist impulse - to overpower the less powerful impulse and then seek an alternative. This alternative in economical terms requires west to complitely shed it's culture.

In simple terms, niggers and racemixing are being promoted as a way to lock down immigrants to combat the inevitable decline of the system, because at the end of the day, the system is a pyramid scheme and people are a way to keep it going forward. Niggers and immigrants feel inferior to the western ideal, so capitalism must thus make it seem like that ideal is not shit, and that niggers are good enough anyway.

It's a complicated topic

>>22401825
Two main problems with western fantasy today:
1. Intersectional bullshit which has already been discussed to death.
2. Cynicism and love for the ugly. GOT is a typical example, but basically any "gritty" fantasy fits this description. Fantasy as a genre has romantic roots - looking back on something once beautiful that is now lost. But the current trend in fantasy is to make your setting as shitty and disgusting as possible. It takes the worst vices of the world that we know of and makes the "fantasy" consist in letting them run rampant - incest, rape, torture, corruption, might makes right, betrayal, ugliness, crudeness, base interests, etc.
It's just a sign of the times, really. People cannot image anything that isn't disgusting anymore, and so they develop a taste for the disgusting and seek things that are disgusting. It's that simple. It doesn't apply just to fantasy either, it's been a long standing trend with the arts in general.

>>22401825
Yeah, they even call comic book and related nonsense "sci-fi" instead of "fantasy" where it belongs.

>>22403937
agreed

Its really not that hard to understand guys, fantasy is ashamed of being fantasy because its SHITE.

Every fantasy author tries to ape Tolkien, every fantasy series is derivative of another fantasy series, cross-contamination with YA, the fandom is easy to please, etc.
There's a reason fantasy is among the lower rungs in the nerd totem

>>22403937
You mistake effect for the cause. Beauty died when Industrial revolution took control and broke any alternative to it, save for communism (and it was an ugly alternative too) which held on by the balls of its skin till it succumbed to the infinite money trick from 1970s. Consequences of this are experienced now because majority of the desicion makes like with the mantra "not my problem".

"Jewishness", which is the list of adjectives you described, is the byproduct of values promoted by contemporary society. And to be fair this ideal always existed, you can go back 80 by over years and still find this shit, the only difference is that the echoes of vanquished culture lingered on and still held people by their hearts. Now after generations upon generations of psyopses the people have turned ugly of course, but none of them know why. And the answer lies not in "people" or "culture", but in the economic necessity that ends up being the driving force behind the former and the latter. Then those contorollers, blinded by their endless greed and need to keep power at all costs, start promoting the values that will result in them holding on to their fragile seats.

Try to write a book fantasy book that is anathema to contemporary "jewishness", a book about honor, virtue, morality, strength, will to rise above and fight evil, to face impossible odds head on, a description of our societal issues - REAL societal issues not the ones that serve as smoke and mirrors - and see how arbitors of "truth" and discourse shit all over it. I've seen obscure fantasy books, written without "jewishness" being review-bombed and cancelled even when they reach was at best like 80-100 readers. Now that I meantioned this part, watch this thread die topkek.

>>22404047
>DERIVATIVE OF DERIVATIVE OF DERIVATIVE
Is the power the true power of /lit/?

How are you niggers unable to understand that capitalism is inherently risk averse. Tolkien was a product of a time when literature was still yet to be fully consumed, which allowed for an unique timeframe that enabled people like him to appear on the market. After that timeframe, its over. Either you will have retarded publishes chasing trends set by the pioneers, unable to take any form of risk because >MUH BOTTOMLINE, or you have judeo-gestapo blocking any attempt to publish something that goes against their corrupted gestalt.

Do you get it? Nobody can take risks. This shitshow censors - either by the system, or by the values imposed on to us which then cause us to self-censor.

>>22403629
the fantastic
to explore new worlds, discover awe inspire or terrifying locations, be presented to mysteries and to follow the stories of interesting and compelling characters along side some escapism

>>22403937
ASOIAF is one of the modern works that don't have this problem, it knows what type of fantasy it is and shamelessly indulge in it and freely dives in it's world fantastical aspects allowing them to infiltrate in the main story.

this, along side >>22403633 and >>22404139, are examples of the type of intellectual pretender that I talked
they can't accept fantasy that don't push for a "right" ideology or explore a "right" type of fantasy world, so enthralled by their notion of romanticism that they can't accept anything that deviates from it, not different than the ones enthralled by ideas of acceptance and diversity

>>22401825
Fantasy is shit because the literary culture it comes from is dead. Tolkein was good because he understood the Arthurian tradition.

>>22404187
Nose-verification: not needed - the post.

>>22404139
I am familiar with this line of argument, but I am not really convinced. I can't deny that top-down pressures have massive influence on the culture, and it also cannot be denied that publishing is held in a chokehold by powerful cliques. But the real problem today is that neither authors nor readers really feel any serious affinity for higher values. If the vast majority of society held fast to those values, the culture industry would simply operate at a massive loss until it was replaced by organic art. But this has not happened, because the people themselves have also changed, they have tolerated being changed, and are content with being changed. If they were not, the status quo could be ended at any time.
>>22404187
>ASOIAF is one of the modern works that don't have this problem
"The more she drank the more she shat, and the more she shat the thirstier she became." - GRRM
I am SO fucking enthralled by the beauty of this fantasy world anon!
To be honest, I am not even sure how to respond to your accusation of "ideology", because it seems like such a complete non-sequitur to me. People write and read what they feel affinity for. If you write and read art about beauty, justice, honour, love and order, it is because you feel affinity for these things and want to look at them more, to experience them more, to deepen your connection with them. And if you revel only in writing and reading about filth, ugliness, betrayal, suffering, despair and cynicism, it is because you are either unwilling or unable to look at anything else. It is either what you feel affinity for, or it is the only thing you can imagine because you have never known anything else. There's no "ideology" here. It is merely common sense.

>>22402340
each person life is built on blood sweat and tears, why the fuck would our civilization be any different?

>>22403633
Fantasy is a marketing term btw. It didn't exist before capitalism.

>>22404343
>Authors and readers cucked by elites
How do you expect them to feel anything when they grow up on cultural goyslop designed to turn them into crypto-jews? Psychopaths are glorified, ugliness is promoted, cultural sinks are pedestalized etc. You honestly think that people are capable of snapping out of programming as per some Calvinistic ideal where the chosen one will resist to the bitter end and rest will fall prey to Basedtanism?

>People changed and have tolerated being changed
They had no choice, culture is always imposed on them violently. World Wars buckbroke entire generations to the point where they were willing to accept anything so long as the metaphorical beatings stop happening. Those who were strong and fought back were either demonized, killed off, or ostracized and ultimately forgotten.

>>22404393
I retained my tastes growing up. It shouldn't be beyond others to do the same. Or maybe I am just a "Calvinist chosen one"?
Anyway, it's not that I disagree that culture is determined top down, but again, if people genuinely found this state of affairs intolerable, it would not be in place. But they can't even withhold their tolerance. And so the show goes on.

>>22401888
dude TV

>>22404406
>I retained my testes growing up.

>>22404406
>Basedtanism didn't change me
There's a profound discussion waiting to happen on this topic alone - what constitutes someone to snap out of basedtanism while others succumb to it? Is it previledge not being born to single-mother household, and have less than usual when it comes to retardedness of parents? Is it a gift from god that one takes for granted?

That aside, lets pretend that I'm gonna come with a crew of niggers into your household and start tearing it down and beating the shit out of you, your mom, dad, lovers and friends - who for the sake of the argument live in your house. These beatings last a long time, then finally they stop because a savior has come to deliver you away from this pain - but only if you follow these goyslop rules.

Would you cuck out, or would you die like a based chad on your principles alone? Don't answer that question btw. I'm just trying to make you understand what kind of shitshow the ones who existed before boomers lived under. Eventually they got so buckbroken as a group that they just went along with whatever prevented them from getting fucked over. That's how it always happens, and I don't care how Calvinistically Based you are, majority of people would cuck out.

Masses always cuckout to the artificial Problem>Reaction>Solution (pushed by controllers). It's a fact of life at this stage. They're literally being manipulated by people who they foolishly think are someone who have their best interests in mind. I would have maybe been on board with you had this happened naturally, no manipulation just based Evil Gigachads descending from mountain and buckbreaking everyone into accepting their ways, but they don't do that, they boil slowly till people are cooked.

Basedtanism=$ØÎtanism btw
>>22404448

>>22404442
>a line that not all American teenagers can say
>>22404448
My friend this has gotten a bit too oddly personal and vulgar for me. And I'd appreciate it if you use the lingo a bit more infrequently.
>Masses always cuckout to the artificial Problem>Reaction>Solution (pushed by controllers).
Sure, but there's also a middle stratum that is indispensable to the system and which needs to be persuaded to follow along. And these people have thrown in the towel as well, alongside the elites, which is why we are in the mess that we are in.
What I am saying is really just that, for manipulation to occur, you don't just need a manipulator, but also someone who allows himself to be manipulated. And the realm of values is quite an important area for people to thoughtlessly allow others to manipulate from the outside.

>>22403937
There is a false notion that grittiness and darkness means depth. Not just in literature but other forms of media as well (people getting wrong ideas from Nolans reboot for the film industry, or the dark Tomb Raider reboot).
Part of the reason I consoom is to avoid how mundane and boring and miserable my current life is and I do enjoy a fair share of gritty media. The obsession with making everything either dark-and-gritty or MCU quippiness (which prevents serious drama) just leads to a sense of staleness, even if the work itself is actually good.
Even when old media (and RR Martin from what I know about him) was dark, it had a sense of "color" and creativity. The original Thief games vs the gritty reboot exemplifies what I mean.
>>22404197
There is also an issue like with anime industry (as Miyazaki noted), the industry is incestous and filled with those more interested in replicating the classics and the current thing than taking inspiration from reality to create something creative.

>>22404343
>I am SO fucking enthralled by the beauty of this fantasy world anon!
interesting how your type always use the same passage without ever explaining why it is supposed to be bad and complete ignore all the other passages of the books and their contexts
Also you are again projecting you ideological vision of "right" fantasy, as I never said a fantasy world should be necessarily beautiful. You are also pushing the premise that if someone write about something is because he likes or support that something, just like the wokes who bitch about "problematic" things in fiction.

>beauty, justice, honour, love and order,
All those things feature in ASOIAF, just not romanticized, and that lack of romanticization that made the books great and refreshing.

>There's no "ideology" here. It is merely common sense.
what you wrote was pure ideology

>>22404607
>There is a false notion that grittiness and darkness means depth.
Yep. It is more "realistic". Realistic to what, and for whom? What kind of person is this cynicism realistic for? Now that's a question people are less eager to answer.
>>22404641
>interesting how your type always use the same passage without ever explaining why it is supposed to be bad and complete ignore all the other passages of the books and their contexts
There is no context in which that passage is tolerable, my friend. If I am reading a work that is already highly cynical, the least favour that the author could do for me is not push filth right into my face. I read in order to immerse myself in narrative - not in order to immerse myself in shit.
>Also you are again projecting you ideological vision of "right" fantasy, as I never said a fantasy world should be necessarily beautiful.
That's what I have been saying all along. Can you not read? My point was that cynicism is trendy, and universal values like beauty are not considered a necessity, as is the case for you.
>All those things feature in ASOIAF, just not romanticized, and that lack of romanticization that made the books great and refreshing.
You are again mistaking cynicism for realism, which is telling. The things I listed are universally valuable - no romanticisation necessary. It is possible to explore difficult or nuanced situations for, say, justice, without collapsing intro cynicism, or conversely, writing some rose-tinted glasses world.
>what you wrote was pure ideology
If you think prizing beauty, justice etc is 'pure ideology' then you're unironically NGMI.

>>22404641
It's interesting to look at the "grim dark" aspect of fantasy from the perspective of something like Howard's Conan. At a surface level, the Conan stories hold all the trappings of grim dark fantasy; brutal violence, rape, slavery... but it's always countered by the heroic strength and power of Conan. The darkness of the world is more of a reflection of historical fiction, drawing from our own violent past--but then injecting it with a hypermasculine hero--someone both selfish and cunning, but still does the moral thing when it most matters.

I think the failure of modern grim dark is the whole purpose of presenting a dark and brutal world, is to thrill us with the joy of seeing good and heroic warriors overcome such immense evil. Yet with the likes of GRRM, he subverts this to everyone's misery.

>>22404343
The economy is too fake and pervasive to allow the percieved dominant narrative to organically fade into obscurity. It brainwashes the consumer into buying whatever it sells, and takes into account the the eventual rejection should it actually happen, which is a big if. And assuming that the outlet is so out of touch that even the culturally brainwashed masses reject it, they can always print out a couple of and reframe the sales to seem more attractive than they really were. If companies can get away with artificial promotion of growth, by showcasing itself as a company that expands and therefore "hires", so that they look nice on statistical papers, all in the name of smoke and mirrors we call modern economy, then the controllers can do the very same thing with everything else. Redefine a flop into a "downward success", employ your hired actors to make it seem popular, hire commercial shills to promote it online and create illusions of popularity, and then all of a sudden it doesn't even look at that bad.

Knowing all this, which I presume you don't, it doesn't take a genious to figure out that majority of individuals that represent the public are incapable of snapping out of it even if they do everything right. In order to actually replace something organically, voting with your wallet is not enough, the masses must also understand the entire mechanism of smoke and mirrors employed by the commercial arm of the system via the digital world. Until it happens, you can have the entire population rejecting something, but then still fall for combination of online shill tactics together with smoke and mirror media presentation - how many times have we seen scenarios with crisis actors making situations seem organic?

You seem like a shill for the system, perfectly programmed to hit everything but the proverbial nail on its head.

>>22405169
This, but I would also add that there's a distinct lack of life experience and a certain je ne sais quoi within the fantasy literature. Tolkien was one of the few that managed to do it well, and I suspect that it's because he was symbolically literate in addition to everything else, but it can't be the only thing since trannies are also quite literature within the language symbolism - theirs is corrupt, ugly and evil though. His wasn't. Of course, if you're a system's perfectly bred slave, someone who embraces all the values, then this isn't exactly self evident.

>>22405521
>Knowing all this, which I presume you don't
You would be wrong, as I said, I am familiar with this line of argument. The problem with it is that here again you are supposing a blank slate controlled by some kind of mechanism, but this isn't really true. If people have taste organically, and especially if they try to develop their taste, some things will simply not fly, no matter how controlled the environment is. But people aren't really interested in developing their sensibilities and ideas anymore, so consequently there's no resistance to "the system" and its standards, for lack of better words. If people did care, then even if there was a whole fake culture being produced by people with money circle jerking each other, you and me wouldn't even know anything about it to discuss it, because we wouldn't care enough to stay informed about it.

>>22405565
>Some things will not fly
As stated previously they have taken into account the potential dissidents that reject the system. They are octrasized, ignored or censored, and it happens on a greater scale than what you seem to be programmed to be aware of - from school to the literal grave. And people aren't interested because they're are consumed by distractions, soul-crushing system of work and education. You only have so much mental energy in a day, and the system knows it well.

>You and me not caring and no outlets for resistance.
There are, but they are all controlled opposition or are eventually infiltrated and subverted. It's done to prevent a cultural impulse from taking root. Legitimate cultural resistance has to go beyond any scope of what was previously considered to be standard just to keep a legitimate fire of criticism alive and coherent.

Conceptualize that the masses do not reflect knowledge we discuss and are at the total mercy of cultural manipulation. You seem to be operating with the notion that everyone is aware to some degree, in reality most aren't.

.