/lit/ - Literature

>>19025
you can not. true communists believe in the abolition of all social roles that conservative ideals hold up. communism is not just economic

>>19025
first sentence is too hard to understand
also 405lbs

>>19025
The Basques were. Read Hemingway. Or actual history Spanish civil war.

>>19175
I've read Orwell's Homage to Catalonia. Not too much regarding social conservatism in there from what I remember, but I do know that Orwell wrote about the importance of preserving British culture elsewhere

>>19025
i dont believe you can be both. conservative thought and governments require a well maintained class system where the people regardless of wealth and creed strive to conserve values and tradition that communism would destroy.
also 450

>>19025
contrary to what the people on /pol/ will say, Adorno believed that capitalism degenerated traditional western values, and supported marxism because he believed it would preserve what made the western world great in the first place.

>>19270
yeah apart from the whole "destroy all institutions including family" thing, he was totally trad mang

>>19148
It depends on what you consider Marxism.

There can be a socially conservative society in which workers seize the means of production.

>>19270
I was surprised when I read Dialectic of Enlightenment how socially conservative Adorno came across considering he's pretty much blamed for singlehandedly degenerating culture.

Donald Duck taking his beating so the worker accustoms themselves to theirs. Jazz music's syncopation being a normalisation of inferior modes of existence. Right-wing conspiratorial stuff by today's standards.

Also the stress he placed on building off of tradition rather than producing pure "style" completely removed from it.

>>19300
Where did he write that?

>>19025

Wouldn't you just end up with a caste based system in the long run?

>>19342
listen to random discussion between him and arnold gehlen.

>>19205
Probably because he was biased being a full believer in Communism at the time. Also catalunia and Basque country aren't the same. Catalunia is much more cosmopolitan and lefty. Basque people just want to live in their small farming/fishing villages take care of each other and their ancestral homes and the rest of the world to fuck off and leave them to it unless they want to trade with them.

>>19372
How about a universal proletariat that still values religion, limits on abortion and drug use, and still values the traditional family structure?

>>19148
This

>>19025
Come home NatSoc man.

Marxism and social marxism are two different concepts.

Seizing the means of production has absolutely zero relations with systematic destruction of the morals of a society.

>21st century
>still being a commie

>>19025
It's called being a J E W

Really though, that's basically Jewish Kibbutz.

>>20934
Stealing is immoral.

Seizing the means of production is stealing on a societal scale.

:)

Social justice communism is a 21st century meme.

Old school commies believe in

- secure borders (until world communism is achieved)
- strong military
- family values
- all degenerates must be gulag

>>19025
All the 19th century anarchists were rabid anti-Semites, Stalin was a homophobe, so was Castro, and Che hated blacks for the longest time. Conservative values are largely just a result of social backgrounds, and carry a necessary ideological function to them in order to perpetuate society; if they lose that purpose, i.e. they lose their practice, then they have no purpose and they wither away.
>>19392
>listen to some discussion he had with a dude over his entire bibliography
sure thing.

>>21022
You can't steal things that actually belong to you

;)

>>21040
wrong!
shoo commie shoo nobody believes your poopoo

sort of

see

Christopher Lasch
Jean-Claude Michea
George Orwell

just be yourself

hoping 200kg today

>>21051

>>19025
FACT: You are not a real Marxist unless you are 100% down with all of this shit

>>19025
Who fucking cares?

And 425lbs

>>21051
> Be me
> Buys means of production
> Hires workers
> Workers say means of production belongs to them
> mfw

Zizek is probably the most famous living communist and he's undoubtedly socially conservative, the left hate him now

>>21146
He's not really socially conservative

>>21040
>family values
Higher-up communists in Russia in the 20's believed in many things that are considered "progressive" now. Some they implemented, like equal rights for women. Some they didn't have time to. For example, they thought that family must be disbanded and made quite a few experiments about "communal living". Then Stalin rose and killed them all before too much damage was made.

>>21146
>>21173
and 'the left' doesn't hate him

>>21146
>reddit and tumblr hate him
what a tragic loss!

>>21146

Zizek is a fucking idiot. I'm way smarter than Zizek.

Nope, they are of the devil, and in complete rebellion to the natural order.

495

>>19025
the true patrician option is being at once a far right reactionary and an unabashed degenerate

I don't deadlift because it's a dangerous exercise.

>>21240
>natural order

>>21173
By modern standards he is

>>21311
If you think of it, Zizek looks somewhat like Rippletoe

>>21045
nigga, his weekly radio podcast and tv appearances memed 68ers into existence. he was careful enough to use other peoples quotes (like "destroy for destruction sake" of gottfried keller) in his books, and not leave direct traces in written form.

>>21275
Is there any difference?

>>19025
It depends what you M E A N.

Do you mean rihht wing communism? Yes, that's Sovietism. They were the right to an anarcho-communist Russian left, and their dislike of the communist left was also why they helped Franco against the Anarchists.

Do you mean traditionalist/conservationist and communist? Yes, many in the green movements are like this. As are many around the ideas of folks like Gramsci. It's pretty normal in a lot ways BUT you cannot have old class roles. A communist cannot go back to Feudalism or w/e you have to go beyond the prole/bourge divide.

>>21362
You do realize Adorno was the victim of these student protests, and was pushed to the extent of having to call the police in his lectures at one point because of their interruptions. Student protests did a lot to smear his name and reputation, and some of them went to the extent of labeling him a reactionary.

>>21393
>they helped Franco against the Anarchists

that's not true btw

NATIONAL BOLSHEVISM NIGGERS

>>21213
The modern nuclear family is an economical organization made to accumulate property for the man's heirs to inherit. Without private property why would it have any value compared to organizing communally?

>>21143
They can choose not to work for you as a collective.

>>21452
I fire them and hire someone else then.

>>21426
isolated episode, what matters is that they exected him to join them.

>>21213
Seems like social democrats have destroyed the family pretty well to me

>>21143
maybe you should have used it yourself instead of forfeiting any claim you had by being a fucking bloodsucker about it

>>19025
Try visiting Easter Europe.

Your mom

>>21213
A nuclear family is part of why women got paid less in the past. That's part of why workers' rights and feminism are so tightly bound.

>>21451
It's also a tool to educate your children on the most basic things in the way you, and not the government, want to. Which is another reason commies wanted (and still want) to abolish it.

>>21393
>you cannot have old class roles
Naturally. This is the main distinction I would make between my beliefs and social conservatives. I mean more in regards to having a shared sense of culture and values.

Any Gramsci you would recommend?

>>21475
Assume nobody else will work for you, what then?

>>21362
The problem is not 68, but its failure. Afterwards, the hippies where domesticated into the liberal managerial classes. All muh political correctness/cultural marxism is just a source of foucaldian discursive power for the bloated managerial state and its hordes of facilitators, HR consultants and shrinks. Their ideological forefathers, are not the Frankfurt school but rather ESALEN and mangled translations of the red book.

>>21494
> bloodsucker
> workers want to appropriate of my things because they are lazies pieces of shit
> wanting gibs
> literal leeches

>>21481
And he never would've, Adorno was always critical of the student protests because he believed that they would've been (and he was right) ineffective at bringing about change since they were purely destructive; and he also subsequently didn't want to bring politics into his own classes, He was a responsible person at his core.

>>21509
>>21451

This is such subversive idpol bullshit.

>workers' rights and feminism are so tightly bound

Kill yourself senpai, feminism has completely destroyed the class struggle in the West.

>>21526
Prison notebooks is where to start bro.

>>21528
Highly unlikely, cause everyone would starve. I just have to hire child and cheap labour in third world countries at nearly non existential wages.

>>21022
That's ironic since captialism itself is nothing but theft by the bourgeois perpetuating theft against the proletariat on a societal scale. This wrong must be righted by whatever means are necessary.

>>19300

citation for this claim?

>>21595
Spoke truly like a full retard.

>>21568
Wtf is an idpol /pol/tard?

If you don't know why a common symbol of the Labour movement is a rose you need to do some book learning. And if you knew that you'd know women's and workers' rights happened together.

>>19025
No. Commutards believe in forced collectivism. the main tenant of Conservatism ism individualism.

>>21129

>FACT:
>>No True Scotsman

>>21594
>b-but th-they need me to survive!
I know this is crazy, but let's say you're just not THAT important. If you have nobody to work for you what is the value of what you believe to be the "means" of "production"?

>>21689
> I go out of business.
> No one works because there's no injection of capital
> Factory stays empty
> There's no magical utopia in which people work for no reward

>>21568
You're partially correct.

>>21648
You are an identity politics shill that has destroyed the left from within, faggot. Feminism and minority rights has completely overshadowed worker's rights and the class struggle thanks to you faggots.

>b-but as long as my capitalist boss is woman it doesn't matter!

>>21655
What you think of as "conservatism" is just liberalism repackaged.

After liberalism/capitalism asserted itself around 1800, the old feudal elites regrouped around social conservatism, accepting a capitalist economy while trying to preserve traditional morals and social orders.

>>21655
>the main tenant of Conservatism is individualism.
No.

Literally every single old school communist would nowadays be labeled alt right nazi for their social views.

>>21787
>current century
>thinking that people are separated by class

Poor whites and rich whites will vote the same.
Poor blacks and rich blacks will vote the same.
Poor asians and rich asians will vote the same.
poor jews and rich jews will vote the same.

You get the idea. We're separated more by religion, ethinicity and even fucking geographical location rather than class.

Your ideology is deeply flawed. Get the fuck off my board.

>>21518
Why is a blood-related family more suitable for this than an actual community of people living and working together regardless of relation? If anything that gives you more control of what influences are okay, while you can't get rid of family as long as it's considered sacred.
>>21568
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1884/origin-family/
>>21787
Realize that bourgeois social relations are tools to maintain economic relations and in no way 'natural'. Women being bloodsuckers is a problem of upholding private property, not a problem of the social ambitions of women.

>>21787
Bud, nuclear family was part of what drove wages, esp women's wages, down to not even subsistence level in the 19th C. It was an economic necessity for these people to survive.

If you're a woman, why do you need to be paid so much? You have a man earning a living wage your wage is just a little bonus. That sort of thing. That's what lead to the first big feminist and workers' movements.

>>21884
Are you literally fucking retarded?

>hurrr chinese farmers and american investors are only separated by their skin color there are no classes

>>21835
Jesus Christ. The amount of mental gymnastics in that post is insane.

Are you unironically implying that the left enforces moral standards? The only moral standard they enforce is to not care about other people's moral standard. The left always lets degeneracy run rampant.

>>21955
> what is meritocracy
Yes, in fact they are.
Actually loling at all the edgy commies and the meme class struggle in this thread.

>>21964
What does degeneracy even mean?

>>21978
>meritocracy
This idiot.

>>21964
>The only moral standard they enforce is to not care about other people's moral standard
Negative liberty is predominantly a liberal idea.

>>21978
>> what is meritocracy
Nice fantasy.

>>22004
>muh meritocracy is a spook
HAHAH

>2017
>communism

When will they learn?

>>19300
>nuclear family unit is a necessity
no, it's just a nice thought

>>21986
>What does degeneracy even mean?
leftists will defend this. Seriously, I have a whole 'degeneracy' folder on my PC, I can just keep dumping examples.

>>19025
I don't believe any form of communism advocates what would be a traditionalist society, but you can be socially conservative easily under something that isn't pure Marxism. Before I get shitposted, communism can be communism without religiously following Marxism, its just not Marxist Communism.

On a somewhat related note it is very easy to have a left-leaning economic state with conservative social values, and is actually very consistent unless you delve into libertarian-conservative values.

>>22021
They never do.

>>21978
> what is meritocracy
not real
>>22032
>implying porn would exist under communism

>>22032
>socialists/communists want to produce pornography
ah yes

>>21955
Yes. There's a reason why your side lost the cold war. It's because communist ideology is deeply flawed.

To be fair, in SOME countries, the idea that people are separated by class is true. In very few countries.

However, for the majority of Western, industrialized, developed countries, people aren't separated by class.

Have you ever been to a big city? People of the same ethnic decent flock together. that's why you have China Town, Little Italy, Brazilian neighborhoods, Black neighborhoods, etc. in every major urban area. People don't like to assimilate. They identify with their own group.

Like it or not, the right-wingers are right. I'm not even an extreme righty myself. But even I can admit that they're right when they say that culture is the line that divides our society, not class.

>pic related, my political compass

That's just so you can get an idea from where I'm coming from. I'm not a poltard, I'm just not stupid enough to realize that class isn't the main determinant of political ideology.

>>22021
>did you build it yourself?
>yep

Every single rich person has earned their wealth 100% legitimate by their own sweat of their brow, yes sir.

>>22021

>>22117
Still don't see a problem.

>>21986
>>22008

>>22112
BOOTSTRAPS

>>22071
Are you implying THIS is ok? Reminder that THIS is the future leftists unironically want for your children.

>>22122

> be leftist
> born poor
> lazy piece of shit
> wants everything for free
> must be the ebil capitalist boogeyman's fault
It's like they don't see how stupid they are.

>>22145
>complaining that comedy shows show funny things

Literally SJC.

>>22112
So people with successful parents don't get to inherit their money? Where else would it go and why?

>>22167
Look let's destroy the whole fabric of morals and decency and promote social decay. It's just a prank dude. Just a prank.

>>22145
Looks like the shit a parent would only put their kid through in order to kickstart the acting career that will buy them a house in the florida keys.
What would be the motivation to do shit like that if not for money?

>>22218
Do you also cry about comedies promoting rape culture and misogyny? Jesus fucking Christ.

>>22167
JUST
A
PRANK

>>22167
>In 2011, internet journalist Daniel Villarreal advocated queer acceptance by writing: "I and a lot of other people want to indoctrinate, recruit, teach, and expose children to queer sexuality AND THERE’S NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT." [26]

Guess kids is just 'comedy' now, ha ha. Regardless of wether the same leftists who unironically advocate for the sexualisation of children. And I suppose you also happen to be ok with THIS, aren't you?

>>22117
>stole it from niggers

Oh yeah, remember when the Africans had mountains of wealth that white people just stole from them? I remember.

>>22248
name 3 shows that have done that since the 60s.

I am a national socialist.

450

>>22117
> Stole from niggers
I rest my case that whites are superior.
Thank you anon.

>>22112
All right wing defenses of capitalism amount to crypto protestant cuckoldry, most likely you don't have much money yourself but still feel compelled to worship the rich and suck their dicks aytime you have the chance, why?

>>22315
You're alright.

>>19300
>in the antagonistic society, the relationship of the generations is also one of competition, behind which stands naked violence. Today however things are regressing to a condition which does not know the Oedipus complex, but only the slaying of the father. One of the most telling symbolic atrocities of the Nazis was the killing of the extremely old. Such a climate produces a belated and rueful understanding with one’s parents, similar to the one between condemned prisoners, disturbed only by the fear that we, ourselves powerless, may not be able to care for them some day as they cared for us, when they owned something. [...] Unpolitical attempts to break out of the bourgeois family usually only lead to deeper entanglement in such, and sometimes it seems as if the disastrous germ-cell of society, the family, is simultaneously the nourishing germ-cell of the uncompromising will for a different one. What disintegrates, along with the family – so long as the system continues – is not just the most effective agency of the bourgeoisie, but also the resistance which indeed oppressed the individual, but also strengthened the latter, if not indeed producing such. The end of the family cripples the counter-forces. The dawning collectivistic social order [Ordnung] is the mockery of one without class: it liquidates, along with the bourgeois, at the same time the utopia, which at one time drew nourishment from the mother’s love.

>>19025
At best you can be apathetic to what other people are doing and practice 'social conservative' values on yourself

>>21146
No he isn't. And the Left sucks his dick a lot

>>22287
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=comedy+promotes+rape+culture

Take your pick. And that's exactly what you idiots are doing right now crying about muh degeneracy.

>>22325
You're probably some college kid from a first middle class family and a 1st world country. Two can play this game. Fuck off marxie.

>>22358
>huffpo
>the guardian
>reddit
>jezebel
>everydayfeminism

>>22253
Seriously, I could keep going ALL DAY.

>>22339
>disastrous germ-cell of society
he complains that nazis had the wrong medicine unlike commies

>>22363
>being a class traitor is bad

>>22404
What are you hoping I feel with these images exactly?

I can see you want some kind of reaction from it.

>>19025
Marxism doesn't actually go in detail concerning things like family values.

Marx, however, was a very strong proponent of those. He believed that divorce was not an option. Lenin, too, was on the side of monogamy (despite unclear personal relations with Inessa Armand).

All the communist states were not traditional, but significantly more tradition and family oriented than liberal ones.

>>21884
the class argument usually pits proletariant vs. bourgeoisie (i.e. employed vs. employer) rather than working vs. middle/upper class.

>>22487
Sorry about the name, visited the hilarious mlpol board just now.

>>22404
*sneaks up on you from behind*
DIALECTICS!!

ha, scared you there didn't I

>>22487
The end goal of marxism was the destruction of the family unit. They obviously couldn't start off with it already destroyed or nobody would listen to them.

>>22145
Fox is not a leftwing media outlet by a long way.

>>22363
middle class family in spic peripheral country. imo most people don't realise how all pervasive capitalism is. It's rather naive to equate 'freedom' with capitalism, as it is a system that depends on nonstop intensive psywar for its smooth functioning and is ultimately enforced by the barrel of a gun.

>>22539
Nope, that's Authoritarianism. Capitalism is mutual consent and competition. What you're looking for is moral subversion through media ese.

>>22531
In some ways, yes. The goal of Marxism is to make a family an entirely private matter, instead of economic necessity and dependency. Do you believe that this is wrong, and families should be as they've been before him?

>>22628
Not the anon you're replying to, but yes I believe a Nuclear family model is the most beneficial for society.

>>22404
Where is this?

>>19025
You cannot be a communist and still deadlift a respectable amount.

Childhood is opposing capitalism on moral and practical grounds whilst supporting communism on both.

Adulthood is begrudingly supporting capitalism on practical ground whilst in that knowledge that it is morally bankrupt.

>>22682
If it is then you would not need to force it onto people economically would you?

>>22485
Have you really become that numb to the heights of human depravity? Is there no breaking through the marxist conditioning? Are you really happy living a life of crippling guilt and humiliation as everything you ever loved is swept away by a ghoulish hieronymus bosch like pride parade of burkas and dogmen?

>>22748
I rather support something that is morally wrong but practical than something that is morally right and unpractical.

>>22682
No he's saying should you be forced into a nuclear family because you can't afford not to be? Or should people be able to be independent and come/stay together as a nuclear family because they want to?

Civilize the mind but make savage the body.

>>22775
Not that guy but i think it is the 2nd one

>>22757
>everything you ever loved
What do you think that would be then?

>>22757
where do you live and how observably are muslims taking over?

>>22752
If you take a man and woman and place them in a life or death situation the man will act first, this is a performed experiment. People would choose a more morally decent society without the subversion of the media and cultural marxism. That's how It always has been throughout human history and so far It worked.

>>22767
same here. I've still got a lingering soft spot for communism which is why I have fun arguing against capitalism in these kinda threads. though if it ever came to a situation where communism were in with a shot of 'winning' the war of ideas, i'd probaly quieten down

>>22790
Marx argues against people having to form a nuclear family out of financial necessity. That's really it. We take it for granted now that men and women can all go out and work pretty easily, but back then even though a woman could work she was still having to live off of handouts from men.

>>22811
That ... did not answer my question. At all.

Again, if you genuinely believed that traditional family is superior coz for whatever reasons, you should be okay with scrapping the economic pressures that force people into that mold in the first place

>>22719
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTKe8dYrWWw

>>22841
I'm an avid supporter of the capitalist model. But I don't say the socialist model is completely wrong. I think that socialism would work in a racially homogenic society in which everyone has <120 IQ. Socialism totally ignores that some people are lazy and some people are stupid.

>>22811
>If you take a man and woman and place them in a life or death situation the man will act firs

good thing we live lives of sedentary comfort, unassailed by tigers and bears and other primitive dangers

>>22876
There's not a mold. It's just is. What economic pressures are you talking about?

>>22841
Nigga just read up on socialist and anarchist theory and history to realize that a stateless, moneyless and classless utopia is merely a desired endpoint that the left is trying to push

>>22904
We will always be animals, rules of nature still apply to us.

>>22791
Art, Science, Morality, the whole of western civilisation for godsake fucking damnit. Believe me those leftists face to face, their shrieking, their snivelling, their wallowing in victimhood, these people will never be happy.They will destroy the whole 'oppresive' edifice of patrician western culture and replace it with Beyoncé(TM) twerking extarvaganzas, 4kids sex change clinics, and turn all cathedrals into mosques and still they wont be happy.

>>22935
socialist and anarchist are opposites mate

>>22893
Due to capital's global pervasiveness, socialism would work if it were implemented by a world government (an idea fraught with its own problems). As it stands, any nation who chooses to pursue a hardcore socialist model will quickly and savagely be outcompeted by other nations, leaving them in the dust. As a result, all nations have to put their all into growth - it's the only way to keep up.

>>22935
i didn't deny that it's desired - i simply stated my belief that it's impractical.

if you think otherwise, say why.

>>21884
>Poor whites and rich whites will vote the same.
>Poor blacks and rich blacks will vote the same.
>Poor asians and rich asians will vote the same.
>poor jews and rich jews will vote the same.
This is factually wrong. I'd point you to actual polls that prove my point but you seem to be either trolling or dishonest

>>22948
>Mistaking identity politics pushing neoliberals for class consciousness pushing leftists

>>22923
What the... Did you not read on marxi's critique on capitalism?

>>22948
Lad, why do you all think that commie is the same as democrat. Also a leftist can be more conservative or more libertarian about social issues.

>>23030
> Whose?
> Work hard
> Buys factory
> Hires workers
> Works hard managing the factory
> Avoid being bankrupt
> collects profit
Wow that sure was hard

>>22969
Pinochet is really cool and fashy. where can I get Fashy Cape like his so I can make leftists piss themselves in terror?

>>23030
class consciousness is a silly idea pushed by idealists. leftcommunism is the only sane and consistent strand of communism.

>>22969
>What is the French Commune?
>What is the First International?
>Crowned heads, wealth and privilege may well tremble should ever again the Black and Red unite
Again read history and theory. of both ideologies

>>23014
Communism isn't an ideology so much so it is a dream of a utopia, of which socialism and anarchism are trying to prepare the world for and get them to accept its arrival.

So of coz Communism is impractical, the whole point of the left is to make it practical

>>23079
>http://www.ww2sale.com/ww2-german-m36-general-greatcoat-replica-os007.html
This one is pretty good

>>23097
>So of coz Communism is impractical, the whole point of the left is to make it practical

when I say impractical I don't mean 'politically infeasible'. I mean that when - or rather, if - it arrives, it will fall apart rapidly.

>>23073
Did you forget the fact that if you work on someone's factory you won't ever be able to buy a factory because you're not having all the wage you deserve?

Comrades itt, what do you think about the so called identity politics? A dear friend of mine has been trying to convince me how identity struggles regarding race, ethnicity, gender, etc are a diversion tactic by neoliberals to fragment the proletariat. Is this conspiracy theory-tier lunacy or a legit argument?

>>23175
> Labour theory of value
just wow

>>23171
>I mean that when - or rather, if - it arrives, it will fall apart rapidly.
Yes that is what I meant too by 'preparing for its arrival'

>>23188
Yes he is absolutely right.

>>23188
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nV7Zlk6GYas

>>19025
No
275

>>23188
I don't believe in your friend's argument, but a fact there is that since the 70's the worker has been demonized, as the inmigrant, avoiding so the class-struggle cuz they made the ploretariats hate themselves and love the rich, while the rich is making them stay poors.

Many communists were personally conservative in their lifestyles, but I don't think Marxism as a theory can be reconciled with the systematic defense of traditional values, specially considering how the power of the revolutionary intelligentsia is contingent on the destruction of said traditions.

I mean, it's not a coincidence communism is so popular with teenagers, as they rebel against their parents, they are easily influenced by an adversary power structure to the one they were raised into.

>>23308
More like the rich have been fooled into thinking they're proles and hating the workers who they believe to somehow have more privilege than them.
This is how you get these upper middle class commies who spend every waking minute insulting and subverting their own country's working class.

>>23366
>>23308
> da rich
> da joo
I don't know which is more ridicule and childish

>>23188
>identity struggles regarding race, ethnicity, gender, etc are a diversion tactic by neoliberals to fragment the proletariat.

How the idea came into circulation has no bearing on its validity.

All I will say is this: don't turn into one of those idpollers who shout down white people or who celebrate about dumb working class Trump voters losing their healthcare and voting against their interests; and conversely don't go so far off the other end that you become indistinguishable from social conservatives/fascists in your edgy rhetoric.

>>23482
2010s idpol is best understood as a tool of foucaldian discursive power at the service of the managerial state. People forget how much of it depends on 'woke' media outlets, paid speakers and corporate diversity consultants.

>>19175
Too bad that nowadays they all want to welcome refugees

You can be any combination of anything If you add post- to the beginning, some ideologies just make it more difficult than others.

>>19025

>>23455
That has happened so many times in the past, where the rich divided the masses

>>23482
>who celebrate about dumb working class Trump voters losing their healthcare and voting against their interests;
Not going to lie but Schadenfreude is a hell of drug

figures that /lit/ dyelfags are a bunch of commies

>>23539
>Look bad people did bad things.
Finally genocide all the muslims because some of them committed terrorism.

>>23482
>How the idea came into circulation has no bearing on its validity.
Okay, but is it a diversion tactic? It seems like the perfect arrangement for a capitalist

>>23563
You don't even know half of it /fit/, we weren't always a commie circlejerk until /sffg/ invited reddit onto the board.

>>22339
>One of the most telling symbolic atrocities of the Nazis was the killing of the extremely old.
When did they do that

>>23537
>collateral damage

>>19025
No.

515.

I'd like to remind all you manchildren that tribalism is the natural state of humanity, thus the state we are genetically predisposed to being the most functional in. Humanity will be at its strongest when we all live in small 300 person max communities.

>>23513
what are your thoughts on things like white privelege?

>>23539
do you understand that your entirely undeserved sense of superiority is why y'all got BTFO in the electoral college? Its funny to see a bunch of communists act so smugly superior to the working man.

>>23539
american liberals aren't really leftists but crypto protestant moralists, their predecessors are Wilsonite progressives and the temperance movement, rather than the radical socialists and unionists

>>19148
Wrong. Marxism states social roles develop form material conditions. The new material conditions created by communism would naturally destroy old social roles but that's an indirect effect, not a direct aim.

>>23627
define "communities".

The Greeks believes that cities shouldn't exceed 100k persons and should ideally be half that.

FACT
Marx was a NEET that didn't have to work in his whole life, much like all the marxists today.

>>23188
Marxism is completely incompatible with identity politics. It maintains that everything in society is derivative of economic practice. Identity politics derives from identities being incidental and subjective.

Identity politics are pushed by big business, to maximize supply on the labour market and minimize its organization, forcing them to fight over breadcrumbs with each other.

>>23602
No clue. Not even sure if that's answerable. But it has definitely been co-opted at least partially by corporate interests, then funnelled down to well-meaning ""radicals"" who think upping the number of women CEOs will solve anything.

>>23637
>What is accelerationism?
These people voted for Trump, thinking he will fix and give them everything. To see them utterly disappointed is funny. Still a terrible thing but hilarious nonetheless

>>23633
It's like the holocaust. Its fiction that we should make reality.

>>23703
>accelerationism
>trump
are you just posting random shit from the Nick Land threads?

>>23669
A grouping of people with common interests equal to or less than Dunbar's number.

>>23014

Not him but I think it's a little bit shortsighted to think of human nature as being inherently biased toward a modern style market economy. Think about it. Pretty much everyone in the world grew up living under a system we'd call capitalist, and only a comparative few even remembers ever having lived under anything different. If the majority of human societies were collectivist (and not under existential threat) it's probable that people would consider 'human nature' to be biased toward the virtues of a collectivist society.

To prove it you can even go back in historical time and find examples of people saying (and genuinely believing) that feudalism or oligarchy or any number of social models is the "natural order of things," or you could look at the outlook of people still living in traditional or nomadic societies. It only seems natural because you've never known anything else.

>>23703
>Accelerationism
Nice to see the retarded redditors here trying to make every leftist look like an idiot.

>>23703
They (common people, not /pol/tards) voted for Trump grudgingly. Still, both he and the Hilldog were extremely unpopular and extremely bad choices altogether. It's not the voters' fault It's the system's fault.

>>23723
Are you genuinely incapable of googling the fucking term?

>>23627
>appeal to nature
spotted the brainlet

>>23703
Accelerationism is retarded nihilist bullshit. You think you're edgy and superior but really you are a totally hollow person lacking in ideology and purpose. Go lift. Get a job. Read something other than post modernist jewish bullshit. Or just kill yourself, whatever is more convenient.

>>21909
Engelian garbage has nothing to do with communism. Engels was a proto-SJW and very much the root of most of the failures of the left that followed.

Social democracy is objectively superior to communism and doesn't imply the slaughter of millions (bourgeoisie) to be put in practice.

>>23762
Oh sure, those that had no delusions of what they were doing don't deserve Schadenfreude, I was talking about the MAGA crowd who (still?) go for Trump rallies

>>23753
Why yes I would like another Obama 3.0

Yes. Communism is based purely on economics.

>>23769
Are you that professor who got rekt by Tucker Carlson?

>>23762
I don't know why people keep insisting the Republicans suffered from "bad/no alternative choices", Donald beat some of the most successful, well-liked, practical and diverse republicans the party has ever had.

>>23735
I actually agree with everything you've said. I don't have any time of the human nature argument - I recognise human nature, whatever it is, is probably malleable.

My objection is to do with resource distribution. How does it work without price mechanisms? Central planning seems like one idea but a) it doesn't seem to have worked historically and more importantly b) it goes against major communist principles.

>>23773
Animals function and have the least chance of mental issues in zoos when you provide them with a social structure and habitat most like their natural environment. That is likely the same for people. Most of society's problems come from people's empathy being stretched to its absolute limit. Dunbar's number must be accounted for when making a society.

>>23781
>>23843
Not an argument

>>23633
Like good calvinists, Anglo Americans get some sort of perverse enjoyment out of ritualised displays of guilt and self abasement. Of course that doesn't mean 'helping' the dispossessed but rather instrumentalizing them for your own moral psychodramas. Rather than focusing on ending material dispossesion, we focus on emotional management, on determining which forms of dissatisfaction are valid and how they should be expressed. That is, for me, the most disturbing aspect of 'identity politics' the abuse of pseudo-psychiatric jargon. Foucault and Deleuze are surprisingly 'redpilled' on this, even though /pol/ might blame them for being muh cultural marxist sjws. Privilege discourse also preserves the myth of meritocracy. What if the system is absurd as a whole and picks the people best suited to its functioning, which in this day and age also means presenting itself as the main agent of social progress, rather than as something inherently exploitative.

>>23834
This is why your commie bullshit doesn't work. You've clearly never worked a day in your life but you feel entitled to make fun of and even revel in suffering of America's working man and woman because you disagree with their politics. You communists have become the enemy of the working class and your too lost inside your own butthole to realize that you are doing the bidding of the very societal forces you claim to oppose.

>>23831
worldwide social democratic benevolent dictatorship is the only godtier system

>>23895
Thanks, stefan, thing is I have no intent of arguing with you. To engage with your retardation in a dialectic is to give you credibility. I'm simply having fun with rhetoric making fun of you and demonstrating how stupid and contradictory your position is.

>>23936
Don't worry friend. The real life equivalent the Bene Gesserit breeding program is being implemented and we'll eventually have the immortal god-scientist-philosopher-powerlifter-king to take us into the future.

>>23922
>revel in suffering of America's working man and woman because you disagree with their politics.
More like cold comfort in their disillusionment of a Trump presidency. As i said it is still a terrible thing that I would rather not happen, but too bad these voters who also didn't want it to happen voted for the party who did want to make it happen. And are upset that it is happening

>>23982
I'm totally on board but the Bene Gesserit is not the organization I want running the eugenics program.

>>23972
>Calling people names is a demonstration of how stupid and contradictory their position is.
Okay

>>23831
Social democracy is complimentary to communism. The difference is tactical, and they only had a schism during the Russian Revolution.

Social democracy in developed countries and communism in the developing.

>>23903
>Of course that doesn't mean 'helping' the dispossessed but rather instrumentalizing them for your own moral psychodramas.

Indeed. The quote "identity politics is expressive, not persuasive" comes to mind.

Also how old are you anon? You write goodly.

>>23993
There you are again with that smarmy fuckwit condescension. Not one Trump voter is disillusioned. Disappointed with the depth of resistance and lack of support he is facing in dc? Sure. But they know he is fighting the good fight, and had he not won things would be a million times worse with hilary in charge. We're not even a hundred days into his presidency and he has done so many things big and small. And even the faggiest nevertrumper still wants to see his appointee Gorshich on the bench.

You're incredibly out of touch with those you claim to champion comrade.

>>24034
>Not realizing that 'not an argument' is a meme based on stephan molyneaux.

Y'all started the name calling with deplorable. I'm just happy to finish the fight.

>>23876
I'm not actually a commie so take what I say lightly, but it seems the argument is usually either that computers and modern big data techniques will make central planning efficient enough to work properly, or that we should do away with money and just have communities trade commodities with each other without currency as a medium because currency can be accumulated too easily. The reason the second thing is retarded ought to be self-evident but while they're probably not wrong about the first, I really just don't see the point. A planned economy really isn't any less socially stratified than what we've got now.

>>24130
Don't shift the goalposts and conversation to other policies of Trump when we are only talking about healthcare. Already the healthcare bill that the Ryan and Trump want to push was screwed up to begin with

>>24123
21, and thanks, really

>>24183
>implying i care
>indulging in whataboutism

>>22162
Leftists aren't stupid. They're pathetic.

>>24246
damn would've taken you to be older. I'm 20 and my writing is, well, eh...

out of interest are you a bonafide commie or just someone interested in and sympathetic to leftist/marxist thought?

>>24218
Who is 'we' commie? I wasn't ever discussing healthcare. Frankly I'm glad that ryancare failed, it was a shitty bill. Fault for it being shitty is clearly on the house leadership, it shouldn't be the president's responsibility to whip votes or draft legislation. If that bill had gone through it would have cause no end of trouble for GOP down the road, shit only like 17% of Americans liked it. Ryan's failures aren't Trump's, and trying to project them to be so is indicative of the lack of anything else the communist party here has going on.

Trump wanted a republican healthcare bill, he doesn't really care too much about the specifics. It was sad to see the GOPe screw him like that but this is still the top of the first inning, we have a lot more game to play.

But I'm more curious what happens when it comes out who was unmasking the identities of Trump staffers and leaking them to the press. Because thats a real, no shit, pound me in the ass prison, level of felony. People are saying its a big fish. Funny how obama is currently hiding in a country that doesn't have an extradition treaty with the US right now.

>>24317
>>24383
This guy is trying to prove they can be both.

For a pseudointellectual you sure aren't very bright are ya kid? Are the russians hacking your ability to defend yourself or do you really think that you and your 3 semesters of SJW studies at a community college make you the arbiter of what is best for America's working class?

>>24489
Russians must have hacked my pants.
Cause I got a huge leak for you.

>>24459

>>24509
Please, list the European leaders who declared war on Hitler here.

>>24514
Mirin deez latz?

>>24407
>I wasn't ever discussing healthcare.
Look up the reply chain we all were talking about healthcare.

>Ryan's failures aren't Trump's
Then Trump shouldn't have shilled hard for it too. Look it is pretty simply, these people voted for Republicans and Trump, thinking that latter will bring them single-payer healthcare. To actually see the former trying their best not to do that and ruin them healthcare-wise is the disconnect here. Is Trump sincere single-payer healthcare, we will find out soon enough.

It is not like these people couldn't just voted Dems in the senate and Trump in the presidency for their single payer healthcare

>But I'm more curious what happens when
Again shifting goalposts and conversation.

>>24546
Judea

>>24546
churchill

>>24540
You must be very afraid about the world that is coming.

I am drinking your reactionary tears and will fuck with my homo queer gang tonight.

Best kisses love <3

>>24609
>>24611
None. And you know it. I hope at least.

>>24489
>maybe if i call him more names I would be more right

>>24509
Damn, you have to be fucking dumb to believe this. Hitler was an expansionist. Other countries could either roll over and take it in the ass or defend themselves. Nobody cared about his retarded ideology until he started fucking with other states

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PlwtAJZ6jc

>>24581
Yeah I'm not about to read a bunch of commies circlejerking. Deal with it.

Nobody voted for singlepayer. Are your parents cousins? Republicans want obamacare gone fuck singlepayer. Its the worst possible alternative. You know those horror stories about the VA? Thats what you'd get times 100 with singlepayer.

We can fix healthcare by deporting those who drain the system most. Immigrants. Get rid of them and the system will work just fine. If its not perfect at that point we create a seperate but equal (though I'm negotiable about equal) healthcare system for the niggers. Boom I just fixed healthcare.

And fuck your goalposts. This thread isn't about healthcare retard. You think you own this conversation? Nigga you can't even own the means of production.

>>24680

>>24637
Enjoy getting aids you evolutionary dead end.
Weimar Germany had a problem with degenerates too...
>>24688
>Leftymemes are shit: the post
Seriously are you missing a chromosome? I ask because you're trying to come at me and in your post you admit I'm right.
"I would be more right."
'more right'
>meaning I'm right
HAHAHAHA

>>19025
Yes, that might make you a Strasserist fascist or a Stalinist.

>>24735
>tfw the lion wakes up an just tears the shit out of everyone*le ebbin hitler dubstep montage ensues*
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-Yszp3SmxE
Whoever edited this is trully the Riefenstahl of our generation

>>19025
A country could try but communism destroys the social fabric of society. Look at welfare and no fault divorce. The effects of both and the general subsidization of women has led to a steep and continued increase in single moms. Single moms are cancer for communities and poison to young innocent children who go on to commit crimes at much higher rates relative to their peers who have both their parents.

Even the retards of /pol/ know how stupid communism is.

>>25050
You fundamentally misunderstand communism. Welfare is inherently a product of Capitalism and was introduced postwar as a Keynsian buffer to the business cycles. There would be no "welfare state" in a Communist society.

This is exactly why I asked the question. I believe Capitalism is the primary force in eroding traditional values.

Also your meme pic is Anarcho Communism - Communism without state - so the power would not be concentrated in the hands of anyone because there would be no state to have control.


Why do people try to talk about politics when they don't even have a basic understanding of it? Honestly, what compels stupid people like yourself to think they have anything worth saying? Honestly curious

>>19025
Fuck all this shit, when can we go back to monarchies?

>>23903
In this paragraph we see a great example of how you write something seemingly complex while not actually writing anything at all. This is common in the education system.

Why should I feel privileged because of my skin color and my cock?
>psychobabble large undefined words
What did you even say?
>more psychobabble condescendingly actually saying nothing
Here's an argument
>not arguing just seemingly complex
What's your point
>garbage

>>24748
>Yeah I'm not about to read a bunch of commies circlejerking. Deal with it.
Someone is getting mad over getting proven wrong

They do want singlepayer healthcare and the republicans are blowing it up

>We can fix healthcare by deporting those who drain the system most. Immigrants. Get rid of them and the system will work just fine. If its not perfect at that point we create a seperate but equal (though I'm negotiable about equal) healthcare system for the niggers. Boom I just fixed healthcare.
Again not really talking about what you think is a good system for healthcare

>And fuck your goalposts. This thread isn't about healthcare retard. You think you own this conversation? Nigga you can't even own the means of production.
Ah more insults, it is fine if you don't want to engage in a conversation and just preach/shill for Trump. Just don't pretend you are actually arguing about anything

>>24851
>I don't know to greentext :the post
I actually got that picture from /pol/

>>25172
Wealth distribution goes against property rights, force, and the free market. Stealing is a common theme in socialist eventually communist nations. Capitalism is

>>25332
>property rights
Wow it is almost as if people who reject private property don't give a shit about it

>>25332
property is theft

>>19025
>socially conservative
Personally, or you want to try and enforce your social conservatism on everyone else?
If its just personally, then yeah, you can be. If its not and you start to try dividing people up in the commie movement, you're gonna get gulaged like all the other counterrevolutionaries

>>25325
A good system for healthcare would be to totally abolish all the cancerous regulations, subsidization, "public" property, and ANY government meddling in the healthcare system. The prices would dramatically drop, people could finally afford healthcare again, and people would stop dying as often.

>>21022
>immoral
>He hasn't taken the stirnerpill

>>25332
Free market doesn't sustain itself, brainlet. Measures like welfare are put in place to keep the lowest proles from starving and to keep society relatively productive.

Communism is the collective ownership of the means of production by the workers. Everyone able must labour. There are no social security checks. That is a uniquely Capitalist phenomenon.

Stop drinking the right-libertarian kool-aid, Americans especially are so fucking misinformed when it comes to identifying what constitutes socialist policies and what has necessarily arisen from Capitalism

>>25365
Right. So people who reject private property, communist, want to take the wealth that you have produced and give it to someone else by force. This is wrong. Stealing is wrong. Wealth distribution is wrong. Welfare is wrong. The effects are crippling society and socialism is once again BTFO. Also, throw a rebuttal at me or an argument. You're not proving me any more wrong only more wrong with your non argument.

>>21554
>workers
>lazies
think about that for a sec

>>25483

>>21648
>common symbol of the Labour movement is a rose
That's a sign that you're a succdem, not a real commie. Will you ever tire of backstabbing and being opportunistic pos?

>>25472
The free market does sustain itself and creates vast amounts of wealth for everyone. Also, no welfare means more money for charity. Our socialist government does a shit job at "charity". Theres a bunch of neets like yourself who can get it without needing it. Indiviuals and private organization are much more efficient with charity. They're more likely to not give you money if you don't deserve it.

>>25545
>>25388
Prove to me it's not. I'm throwing arguments and I don't see ONE rebuttal. If guys don't want to argue I'll crush your fuckin skull instead before you try and take away all of my property.

>>21655
>individualism
The only serious individualists are Stirnerite Egoists. Conservatives are just good at repackaging minority rule as """"individualism"""" or """""'libertarian""""""

>>25483
>I declare all these to be wrong therefore X is bad

>>25557
>neets like yourself
worked since I was 16 and never claimed welfare

Also, you're going to need a lot of citations to back up those claims that the free market had ever worked by itself or is even "free" in any meaningful sense.

>>25545
Proudhon was a cuck.

>>25434
Stirnerposting is middle brow frogposting. Stirnerposts are almost always garbage.

>>21655
Fascism isn't just political violence. Why do liberals have to obfuscate everything?

>>19025

Can you deadlift and still be a communist

>>25501
Wanting to claim things that aren't theirs sounds pretty lazy for me.

>>25483

>Stealing is wrong

Agreed. Hence, let's stop porky from stealing the profits of a proles' hard work.

>>25729
Already answered
>>22879

>>21884
>voting patterns in bourgeois elections prove class don't real
found the retard

>>25595
read a book

>>25595

No one's coming for your personal property. There's a difference between private and personal property.

>>25756
see >>23220

>>25896

What's wrong with the Labour Theory of Value?

>>25979
It's completely bogus. Marx tries to work with something completely intangible as work and pretends It generates any value.

>>21936
>big feminist and workers' movements.
They aren't as related as you think. There has been a working class movement since the creating of industry, particular the early 1800s when they started becoming more and more prominent as a class. During this time, the first feminist movements were from the wives of the bourgeoisie and petite-bourgeoisie who wanted to vote. Working class women like Emma Goldman laughed at these attempts and deliberately avoided calling themselves feminists to stay clear of the association. Feminism simply wasn't for working class women until much more recently. With the World War II forcing these petite-bourg women to go to work, and the advancement of technology making the women's role of housekeeper within the nuclear family much more effortless, you started to see a new feminist movement arising. However, it was quickly hijacked by CIA agents like Gloria Steinem and used to turn in the 60s movements in on themselves. I wouldn't mind feminists so much, but ever since the 60s, they've been the conduit for how intelligence agency spooks defanged the left completely, and to this day are what allows the spread of obfuscating, liberal theories instead of more Marxist ones. I have some friends who are feminists, but whenever I try to talk politics with them, I either try to just agree with whatever they're saying and move on to a more nuanced direction in politics, or act like I don't understand what they're saying and point out inconsistencies as if I'm confused.

>>26022

>Work doesn't generate value

>>26114
Demand does. Work only work as a mean to an end. If I work in something that no one wants there' will be no value for the commodity.

>>19025
Strasserism

>>26252

Instead of just shrugging off an obvious defeat when arguing, why don't you just admit you were wrong and perhaps, I don't know, read more into the subject you were talking about so as to not humiliate yourself again in the future?

>>26292
> Let me throw a youtube video to avoiding admitting that I'm wrong
> Better project defeat that will surely show my superiority
kys

>>22363
>middle class
Either petite-bourg or a Prole with above average labour power. If its petite-bourg, they'll eventually either go out of business (the most likely option), be eaten up by a competitor (next most likely) or grow big enough to be full bourg (least likely). Most likely, by middle class you mean a prole with above-average labour power, in which case, still a prole.

>>25292
what? are you retarded? what they said is very simple:

>sjws don't give a shit about the oppressed - they use the culture wars as a way of shoring up their own sense of moral righteousness
>sjws care more about molding one's emotions and expressions than fixing the base, material issues
>a fixation privilege implies that when its gotten rid of we'll live in a perfectly equitable society, which is obviously BS because it assumes that there is a true, pure, and meritocratic capitalism lurking just beneath the surface, waiting to be liberated
>in reality, capitalism doesn't have an underlying 'code' that rewards hard work, so it's inaccurate to paint it as a force of social progress