/lit/ - Literature

>>22355962
Filtered.

what do you normally read, maybe I can recommend something better

>>22355971
Idk I read just about anything, at least try em before knocking em
Before this, I read A Walk on the Wild Side, Josephus' Jewish Wars and Berlin Alexanderplatz
Liked all three of them
I think I usually enjoy good tragedies with normal people(as opposed to rich/aristocratic people)

>dumbass comes to /lit/, complains about being too retarded to read the Iliad

Many such cases!

>>22355993
One has to be retarded to enjoy this shit

>>22355989
ah ok, I just wanted to see if you were a retard or just somebody who didn't like the Iliad.

In keeping with the Weimar theme, you could try out Nabokov's Laughter in the Dark. Not his most acclaimed obviously but it's still Nabokov, so valuable

>>22355962
May you get the attention here that you so desperately crave IRL. Here, have a (You).

>>22355962
Growing up is realizing that the Iliad is a philosophic work

>>22355962
You are literally a subhuman.

>>22355962
>plotfags

>>22355962
I literally stopped at the EXACT point you did. Once he started counting the trains I had to throw that autistic shit away

>>22355962
Funny bait OP

Brainlets run into the lists and get intimidated. Galaxy brained folk, like myself, skip them altogether on an initial read. They’re little more than a glossary as far as I’m concerned.

>>22356600
>like myself, skip them altogether on an initial read
I give them a cursory glance and bookmark them for later reference. There is neat stuff like that in the Bible like where if you do all of the proportioning according to how many Jews there were of each group, that the tabernacle was in the shape of a crucifix. Without the boring reference, one would not have the data to parse that result.

>>22355962
>durr the oldest work of literary merit that informed entire cultures and histories isn't autistically polished enough to jerk me off the way my goyslop does

>>22356654
this but unironically. get with the times

>>22355962
>telling us you aren't white without telling us you aren't white

>>22356657
fuck you

>>22355962
>begins smackbang in the final days of trojan campaign, doesn’t explain shit, assumes you know what's what and why's why
Because everyone does. It's shit everyone knows from cultural osmosis since childhood, man.
>Paris stole Helen so Argives went to wage war on Troy
>they are led by Agamemnon and their greatest warrior is Achilles
>Trojans are lead by Priam and their greatest warrior is Priam's son Hector
>the war happened across 10 years and ends with sacking of Troy
>Hector and Achilles both die

>two retarded men with fragile egoes bicker over the ownership of slave girls, somehow I am supposed to care about this shit lol
That do be like it do, do-be-do-be-do. Indeed, why would people of enormous authority who are believed to be among the greatest in their strength and capability act insecure and petty when put into a direct confrontation? It's not like their very authority and status that they hold over a vast number of people and their lives is on the line lol.

>suddenly starts infodumping about the number of ships and various people commanding it for 10 fucking pages
Because it's an awesome sequence. It's what your manga and capeshit splash-pages with heroes in badass poses and their cool titles are trying to emulate.

>Gods are somehow more petty than humans
They have to be, for the the world they run to have all that shit in pettiness in it. If Zeus had righteous and virtuous, why would he allow a guest the break his vows and disrespect his host so grievously by stealing his wife? Would he allow armies to clash, fields to burn, cities to crumble, and young men to lie mangled by a bronze spear?

>Dropped
ok pleb

>>22355962
Too brainlet to know about the matter of Ilion, too souless to enjoy the action. NGMI

>>22355962
Keep reading. This book is quite violent. The fight scenes are exhilarating.

>>22356684
>It's shit everyone knows from cultural osmosis since childhood, man.
Really????

>>22356666
Quads of truth

>>22356723
>picrel
That's not what they wore
OP's pic is more accurate

>>22355989
>>22355962
Don't worry you're normal. Anyone who enjoys something that's 2800 years removed from their own culture is a big weirdo.

>>22355962
>start reading illiad
>begins smackbang in the final days of trojan campaign, doesn’t explain shit, assumes you know what's what and why's why
that's just "in medias res" and a lot of modern books does this
>two retarded men with fragile egoes bicker over the ownership of slave girls, somehow I am supposed to care about this shit lol
you don't even know how relevant this event will become later lmafo
>suddenly starts infodumping about the number of ships and various people commanding it for 10 fucking pages
ship catalogue is unskipable, if you do it a lot of important champions in the next chapters will be just a lot of literally whos. Take notes.
>Gods are somehow more petty than humans
are you impliying something here?
>Dropped
Filtered.

>>22356564
I am damn sure he's being serious

>>22357152
>that's just "in medias res" and a lot of modern books does this
But they don't assume you know everything. Illiad clearly feels like the climax of some big epic.

>>22357186
You can't read a book older than Christ and not expect to do research

>>22355962
It's called in medias res, Jew
It's called polytheism, Jew

>>22357186
That‘s because it is. You can thank the retards who wanted to transcribe jewish lore thousands of times instead of preserving the classics for us not getting the whole picture.

>>22357213
Jews preserved their own texts. If anything blame the westoids for not preserving their own classics. If not for Persians collecting and translating them, all of them would've been relegated to the dark depths of history.

>>22355962
A few thoughts that will either persuade you to bear with the book or convince you that you're better off dropping it.

- Nine years into the war: we start at this point, because, as per the opening lines, the theme is the rage of Achilles upon Patroclus' death. It's not evident through translation, but the Greek word for that rage is otherwise reserved for the rage of the Gods, highlighting the inhuman character of Achilles' response. Additionally, by implication, it took Achilles nine years to become who he became, as someone more than the best soldier of the Achaeans.

- Retards bickering: the actual argument plays more of a role than just the ego contest it looks like: Achilles, one king among many, is subject to Agamemnon, another king, and this raises the issue of the grounds of Agamemnon's authority. Achilles' argument is that he deserves his prize by right of natural superiority, and, without anyone else noticing, this changes the motivations of the soldiers. Prior, Menelaus and the Achaeans take for granted that Helen belongs to him, but after, he realizes he has to earn her through combat with Paris. Afterwards, *everyone*, Achaean and Trojan, realize that they can fight for their own honor and glory, it reinvigorates the Achaeans, and it infects Hector such that he acts overly brash and seals Troy's fate.

- That fucking ship catalog: the purpose is to show the relative strength and number of forces of each of the Achaean kings, which shows something of the hierarchy involved. Tedious, but it shows, without telling, relative roles.

- The Gods are bitchez: Sure, but this is relevant to a question raised throughout about immortality; the Gods act as they do, in part, because death isn't a consequence for them, and men act as we do because death is certainly a consequence for us. This issue almost has Achilles decide to go back home to be a farmer, and the issue spills into the Odyssey.

>>22357272
Why did these niggas decide to voyage all the way to troy and waste away 10 years of their life? It can't be because of one bitch. Do we know about the political circumstances?

>>22355962
>Gods are somehow more petty than humans
Of course they are, they can afford to be

>>22356740
NTA but yes. Doesn't surprise me of someone nowadays doesn't know the plot of the epic cycle but it's something that people with minimal knowledge of Greek mythology will know.

>>22357285
Helen is her husband Menealus's claim to the throne of Sparta. Besides, all the kings of Greece had sworn an oath that if anyone abducts Helen, they'll all gang up on him.

>>22355962
>Achilles
>fragile
He put up with that retard Agamemnon's shit for like 10 years, he had the patient of a saint.

>>22357285
>doesn't understand the implications of stealing spouse of the brother of most powerful man of mythological greece
do stupid shit, get rekt.

>>22357285
Anon at >>22357316 has the gist of it; beyond that, the kidnapper, Paris, came to Sparta as a guest friend, making it a little more egregious. Right before the catalog of ships in bk. II, you can see what a poor effect this has had on the Achaeans, since Agamemnon's ploy, to test the army by pretending to call off the war, has everyone racing back to their boats. Most of that decade is spent raiding the countryside and villages surrounding Troy, like what we see at the start of bk. I, since, being so far from home, the Achaeans regularly have to find food for their troops and enough riches to make the soldiers feel like any of this is worth it, which is part of why Achilles is so indignant over his spoils being taken away, since at that point, if the Achaeans win, Agamemnon's brother is the only making out with anything otherwise. This is also why Achilles' principle of natural right to spoils gets everyone else's noggin going, since honor and glory are about all anyone else can get to make the whole dumb war worth continuing.

>>22356684
You are gravely mistaken if you think that The Iliad and Odyssey are part of 'cultural osmosis'.
The Trojan Horse? Sure. Everything else? Absolutely not.

I met somebody in their twenties the other day who had never heard of haggis. Many people are profoundly ignorant.

>>22356740
I'm not even Greek, but we were taught this shit in elementary school. I guess it's more of an old world thing

>>22357343
>haggis
who?

>>22356745
no

>>22357285
>Why did these niggas decide to voyage all the way to troy and waste away 10 years of their life? It can't be because of one bitch. Do we know about the political circumstances?
1. Courting of Helen included Menelaus besting other suitors (which included nearly every Hellenic ruler of the time) in single combat, with everyone involved making sacred vows sealed by the names of Gods to respect the outcome of single combat and protect the marriage with their lives, so as to prevent any of the suitors from doing exactly what Paris did and plunging Hellas into chaos. When Helen does end up stolen b someone who was not one of the avowed suitors, it forces all of the suitors to go after her - it's either that (protect her marriage to Menelaus with their lives) or be an oathbreaker in the eyes of Gods.

It's explicitly not just because of one bitch. Agamemnon and many other Argive leaders desire glory, immortal fame and the wealth they'd get from plundering Troy. For them, stealing of Helen is more of a casus belli than the actual reason - many did not respect the gods enough to fear breaking a solemn oath, and many desire glory and wealth above all else. They had the forces and will to go and fight other men in a distant land and take their riches for themselves, and the rime of Paris provided them with a fitting cause. This is the most explicit reasons for why the war takes ten years - most of those years involve absolutely no besieging of the Troy itself, but rather plundering of the surrounding lands, fighting Tryo's allies and the Agrive army generally fucking about pursuing lands to despoil and strong foes to fight for glory. In one of the secondary epics (I cant' remember which one tho) Odysseus explicitly points out that if they all were really after Helen, they could infiltrate the city, steal her back and come home all in less than one year. but Agamemnon and many others care very little about Helen they are after plunder and fame, with Menelaus being the only Argive king to still be all in it for the sake of his wife by the end of the tenth year - everyone else either still hungers for loot and fame, or just got used to the war as their preferred way of life compared to protecting their subjects and living with their lives back at home. And it's only the excruciating lengths of the siege and the fear of actually losing the war (and thus covering themselves with shame and dishonor) that drives the Argives to accept Odysseus' plan of taking the Tory with a Wooden Horse - i.e. through deceit and perfidy, rather than glorious honorable combat.

>>22357285
>Why did these niggas decide to voyage all the way to troy and waste away 10 years of their life? It can't be because of one bitch. Do we know about the political circumstances?
1. Courting of Helen included Menelaus besting other suitors (which included nearly every Hellenic ruler of the time) in single combat, with everyone involved making sacred vows sealed by the names of Gods to respect the outcome of single combat and protect the marriage with their lives, so as to prevent any of the suitors from doing exactly what Paris did and plunging Hellas into chaos. When Helen does end up stolen b someone who was not one of the avowed suitors, it forces all of the suitors to go after her - it's either that (protect her marriage to Menelaus with their lives) or be an oathbreaker in the eyes of Gods.

2. It's explicitly not just because of one bitch. Agamemnon and many other Argive leaders desire glory, immortal fame and the wealth they'd get from plundering Troy. For them, stealing of Helen is more of a casus belli rather than the actual reason for war - many did not respect the gods enough to fear the consequences of breaking a solemn oath, and many more desire glory and wealth above all else. They had the forces and will to go and fight other men in a distant land and take their riches for themselves, and the crime of Paris provided them with a fitting cause to do just that. This is the most explicit reasons for why the war takes ten years: most of those years involve absolutely no besieging of the Troy itself, but rather plundering of the surrounding lands, fighting Troy's allies and the Agrive army generally fucking about pursuing lands to despoil and strong foes to fight for glory. In one of the secondary epics (I cant' remember which one tho) Odysseus explicitly points out that if they all were really after Helen, they could infiltrate the city, steal her back and come home all in less than one year. but Agamemnon and many others care very little about Helen - they are after plunder and fame, with Menelaus being the only Argive king who is still all in it for the sake of his wife by the end of the tenth year - everyone else either wants to go home, still hungers for loot and fame, or just got used to the war as their preferred way of life compared to protecting their subjects and living with their lives back at home. And it's only the excruciating lengths of the siege and the fear of actually losing the war (and thus covering themselves with shame and dishonor) that drives the Argives to accept Odysseus' plan of taking the Tory with a Wooden Horse - i.e. through deceit and perfidy, rather than glorious honorable combat. And this bloodlust and greed is one of the major reasons why few of the Argives ever make it home - those who sought violence and death of others for their own gratification and enrichment end up slain on the battlefield or drowned by Poseidon's storms. It's a strong "anti-unjust war" theme by Homer.

>>22357254
What retarded christoids did you think I was talking about. Run your cover for jews somewhere else.

>>22357213
>>22357186
Wow. Took that many posts for someone who actually know history to appear. Shame on y'all monkes posting without knowledge. When I was a child, ppl would say "lurk moar"

>>22357156
Look at OPs replies, dopamine hunting

>>22355962
There's literally no way it began anywhere else because it's one of two remaining parts o an epic cycle.
And both of those are in the middle of the story.
We didn't even get Nostoi.

>>22355962
Agreed. It's boring to modern sensibilities.

>>22355962
>illiad

>>22355962
I’m almost halfway through the Iliad and already it’s quite good. I’m even drinking more red wine and meat to larp as a soldier.

>>22357285
Helen was 7 years old when she was kidnapped

>>22359313
Anon but she already was the spouse of Menelaus.

>>22359313
They all pedos fr

>>22357365
That's not mycemaen armour

my version has a glossary of the characters and a little background summary in the introduction that gets you up to speed so my confusion was only brief. im sure you could find some background explanation online if yours doesnt have those.

is it bad that enjoyed the fagles translation more than the hammond one

>>22355993
nta but just because somebody doesn't enjoy what you do doesn't make them retarded

>>22360077
This website as a whole

>>22359456
>my version has a glossary of the characters and a little background summary in the introduction
which one's that?

>>22360077
shut up

After reading Spengler, I overwhelmingly prefer Germanic and Medieval epics over the Greeks.

>>22359662
>not reading Alexander pope's poetic ""translation""

>>22360136
See I converge in the middle, where it's the Greeks and the Catholics I love, but I can't stand the Romans.

My two favorite epic poets are Homer and Dante. But Virgil is a twerp and I've decided I don't like him.

>>22359313
ToT

>>22360121
the penguin deluxe edition of robert fagles translation. the deckled edge is a bit annoying but i like it so far

>>22360077
Imagine being this objectively wrong.

>>22360168
Reading it rn and it's so much more fun than the gay soulless modern "literal" versions. Going to burn my old translations after.

>>22355962

you are completely correct. it's proto capeshit but somehow even worse.

>>22355962

>>22355962
>doesn’t explain shit, assumes you know what's what and why's why
The story will tell you the backgrounds and motives of chararacters as it progresses.
>suddenly starts infodumping about the number of ships and various people commanding it for 10 fucking pages
This is the point where the story tells you "Don't even try to understand absolutely everything that's going on, you will get it later".