/lit/ - Literature

>>22298426
Best book cover of all time.

>>22298434
VGH..... mein bruder...

>>22298426
OP is actually not shitposting, Hobbes is one of my favorite philosophers precisely because I continually see him proven right in the real world. Him and Machiavelli, the real motherfuckers of philosophy. Every other Enlightenment philosopher has gradually been made a fool of, but Hobbes keeps racking up wins.

>>22298447
it's too bad he went all schizo about squaring the circle and discredited himself a bit, still his political philosophy is sublime.

>>22298426
His own country was at its most powerful after is stopped being an absolute monarchy

>>22298474
Having an absolute monarch isn't actually the point of the Leviathan. It can be some other form of government. The point is, you just need the Leviathan, the State, to be of sufficient power to enforce the social contract, to maintain the monopoly on violence.

>>22298474
he says the sovereign can be multiple people.

>>22298477
Weber repeated that.

However, I can’t help to notice a lot of social tensions are brought up about the state forcing people to be equal, contra Rousseau, that without the state and society, man would return to a more hierarchical form

Hobbes had a talent for stating irrefutable facts when he knew them and being honest about his vagueness when he didn't actually know and was merely sharing an opinion or guess.
I finished Leviathan not so long ago and I found it beneficial in numerous ways. Looking forward to reading Behemoth one day.

>>22298434
I never even noticed the people that make up the leviathan until right now wtf

>>22298447
>proven right
what's so painful is the base problem never really changed at its core

Nice, it's another thread where zoomers haven't read something and reduce it to the few summaries and memes they've seen of it, and yet somehow manage to base their entire identity on it!

>>22298426
How do libtards (libertarians) attempt to cope with the problem of security that Hobbes answers with the sovereign?

>>22298477
Sounds like bootlicking to me. no thanks

>>22298996
It’s not a government problem it’s a people problem. You can a sovereign leader but it implies a sovereign leader is infallible, incapable of producing error. You can have any form of government that enforces what is and what is not allowed, but if that leader goes about doing things to his own fancy killing hundreds of people for some personal reasons, then he needs to be held to a higher standard that involves him taking responsibility for the laws he implores on his subjects that should be implored on him. Otherwise he’s just a mindless tyrant.

>>22298426
Holy

>>22298426
>>22298447
He was refuted by the Ancien Regime. Centralization only advances the dissolution of its own unified State body.

>>22298973
holy projection

The existence of the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany refuted it. The leviathan state is only as good as the people running it. Machiavelli won.

>>22298949
must be in our nature then eh?
What I find nauseating along the same line is that Hobbes is considerred outdated.

>>22299888
You mean the Medicis won

>>22298973
>sees different accounts of a book
>makes assumptions
It is a third the length of The Holy Bible, friend, there is a lot in it and the human brain is not a hard drive. Everyone remembers pieces which stuck with them. That's what makes discussion enjoyable and useful, friend.

>>22299111
Then you are a bot.

>powerlevel arguments but philosophers
>Verification not required.

>>22299986
i wonder if anyone checked >>22299999

>>22299977
NPC response

>>22300476
Ironic

>>22298426
>Listen to Hobbes
>end up with globohomo sovereign filled with shallow consumerists
Read Against History, Against Leviathan or end your life OP

>>22298426
I remember one time before an English lecture on Leviathan some BITCH stood up and announced everyone in the hall to join the college Marxist's club.

>>22301151
>not going in and dismantling Marxism point by point in the next meeting
typical chudcel.

>>22300476
Fuck off. You have been checked >>22299977

>discussion of political analysis from the 1650s is derailed by discussion of buzzwords orbiting communism
>any knowledge exhibited relating to the book can be found on the Wikipedia page

>>22298440
>VGH
ywnbaw

>>22301786
since when is vgh is a tranny thing?

>>22301472
>>22301088
Ironic coming from gov bootlickers.

>>22298996
Go back to R*ddit

>>22298426
the real red pill /lit/ will never be able to swallow is that continentals were wrong about everything.

>>22301797
Saying, "ugh," in general makes you sound like a bitching woman.

>>22301944
No answer, then?

>>22301964
Machiavelli and De Maistre are both considered continentals, right?

I think it's just more the case that the actual events of history tend to vindicate more right-wing thinkers than left-wing thinkers. Even pre-Revolution thinkers, the ones who had what we today would call more right-wing views have tended to be proven right by the actual course of history.

Especially when you look under the hood of so-called "liberal democracy" and realize that it rests on a lot of myths and magical thinking backed up by clandestine undemocratic elements. Chomsky, ironically, talks about this a lot. He's kind of stupid but like a blind squirrel he occasionally finds a redpill.

>>22298973
>>22299832
>>22299971
He is not wrong. You will come to see this repeated all over 4chan all the time. It gets quite tiring when you want to go deeper in on a subject and you mistakenly believe the people posting can do that but you find out time and time again that all they are capable of is superficial meme references.

>>22298426
Are there any other philosophy works from that time period with such elegant prose? I love all the old spellings in the book, too.

>>22298426
Political theory is great for the first three parts of the work. Part Four is him going off the rails and dropping a massive steaming pile of shit on the Pope

>>22298973
I am a Zoomer and I actually did read the whole book cover to cover. Frankly, I still don’t feel qualified to discuss it.

>>22302560
It wasn't off the rails at all. Pontifical power was very much a piece of the apparatus and he had referred to it already many times before in the book. It was an unavoidable topic.

>>22298426
Any other philosophers that understand the power of violence, and the weakness of theory?

>>22302624
C of E split from Rome the century prior and he already spent much of Part Three discussing church and state. It just read like Catholic-bashing to me. Unless it was sort of a preemptive rebuff to any potential attempts to discredit his anti-papal power theses earlier in the work.

>>22302490

Check out Urn Burial by Thomas Browne. Heavier on the metaphysics than politics but some of the most sublime English prose ever put to pen .

>>22299888
>The leviathan state is only as good as the people running it
The leviathan state has a chance to be good. There have been many kings given the title "the Great" posthumously. Not a single elected representative will, because democracy is just a 5th column government, the system that puts nations on the path to terminal decline.

>>22302696
>it is naturall for men, at one and the same time, both to proceed in reading, and to lose their attention

>>22302366
I have similar experience, but instead of losing heart I take the opportunity to discuss further myself, and take Anons on a ride with me. Notice how this thread is more on-topic once again than it was before?

>>22302696
And in that chapter he elaborates why this was done, the nature of that power, how it still exists, how it existed before. He justifies what he has said, possibly as a preemptive defense for what could appear to be blasphemy before.

The original Aryan government knew no leviathan, that was a later influence. The authority of the vic-pati was always small and temporary and constantly contested by the other noblemen, who's interests he had to serve, rather than the other way around.

>>22303672
If they had a people they had Leviathan.
It is a metaphor for group/herd mentality and that's nature.

>>22303706
Aryans don't have herd mentality
They are individuals in the real sense of the word

>>22302361
Politics in every age has always resulted in the concentration of power in some form of oligarchy, the only difference being whether this group is made up of radicals or aristocrats, i.e newcomers to the system or embedded interests.

>>22303717
Hitler and Nazism founded their government values on the idea that Aryans were an inherently collectivist and hard working people, no?

>>22303791
They didn't think much about the Aryans in the first place.
Herodotus describes the Germanic rulers of Northern Europe as philosopher kings. It is interesting that the latter were living up to what in the Older Greece had already become a mere theory only discussed by academics. I press on the fact that the Germanics, during the times of Herodotus, had preserved more of the Aryan customs than the Greeks, who had already taken influences from the Semites and from the Romans.

>>22303717
Individualism is an abstraction. When you think to yourself "what would others think of this?" and get an answer, that is your herd mentality.
t. Aryan

>>22303821
What are you talking about? They sponsored an archeological and ethnographic expedition to fucking Tibet, promoted anthropological studies on racial taxonomy. They were literally obsessed with an Aryan ideal and this is obvious in Hitler’s speeches, Himmler’s religious beliefs.
Plus, the Greeks were not a degenerated Aryan race. They stemmed from Cretans and Mycenaeans and later from some Thracian people, they were neither Nordic, nor Semitic, nor Roman.

>>22303930
Yes the Nazis did that but they didn't consider race beyond phenotypical considerations like the nose measure meme wich is kind of hyperbolic but makes the point. More important than phenotype are their moral, social and political characteristics.
The Greeks absolutely are degenerated Aryan race. A Titan is what a Greek person was before any mixture. All this is described in detail in their ancient religious literature and I refuse to elaborate further. A Titan before Deucalion is a Greek without any mixture, Deucalion however was half Semitic.

>>22303937
That’s what I literally said in my first post addressing the fact that Nazis conceived the Aryan people as collectivistic and hard working, this is complementary to their phenotypical metrics to formulate the concept of Aryan for them.
What is a Greek unmixed? A Minoan? A Mycenaean (which were not that different genetically)?

>>22303966
> Nazis conceived the Aryan people as collectivistic and hard working
Source?
> What is a Greek unmixed
A Titan.

>>22302703
>Urn Burial by Thomas Browne
Thanks anon

>>22303966
> Nazis conceived the Aryan people as collectivistic and hard working
Btw, I recall what MK says about the Aryan. He says that the Aryan are not distinguished from the other people's for being sedentary but that the Aryan is an active member of his society while the other people's are passive members of their societies. This has nothing to do with collectivism directly, rather that collectivist societies have passively contributing individuals.

>>22303978
>The Germanic race created the notion of the State. It incarnated this notion in reality, by compelling the individual to be a part of a whole. It's our duty continually to arouse the forces that slumber in our people's blood.
> What we need is a collective view of people's wish to live and manner of living.
>The Aryan peoples are peoples who are particularly active. A man like Krümel works from morning to night.
> The Russian will never make up his mind to work except under compulsion from outside, for he is incapable oforganising himself. And if, despite everything, he is apt to have organisa- tion thrust upon him, that is thanks to the drop of Aryan blood in his veins. It's only because of this drop that the Russian people has created something and possesses an organised State.
A few examples.
>a Titan
You are too stupid to read books. Just go do something else.

>>22304000
>>22304024

>>22304024
How does this contradict anything I wrote in >>22304000
> You are too stupid to read books. Just go do something else
I'm not quoting fascists, I'm quoting what serious ethnologists, historians and linguists have wrote about (P)IE during the 19th Century.

>>22304059
How is shaping people’s wish and manner of life not collectivistic? There’s numerous quotes talking about people’s education, which is even an idea promoted by French thinkers who influenced the revolutionaries. How is a centralized conception of State not collectivistic? How is Socialism not collectivistic? How quote: “COMPELLING THE INDIVIDUAL TO BE PART OF A WHOLE”, not collectivistic?

What 19th century historian, ethnologist affirm that Greeks were Titans?

>>22298447
Mac's advices working out would've gotten him killed, THOUGH.

>>22304024
> The Russian will never make up his mind to work except under compulsion from outside, for he is incapable oforganising himself. And if, despite everything, he is apt to have organisa- tion thrust upon him, that is thanks to the drop of Aryan blood in his veins. It's only because of this drop that the Russian people has created something and possesses an organised State
This is just a paraphrase of an older quote from Arthur de Gobineau during the 19th Century.
> [...] This also why the claims that the Slavs will revify the European culture are nonsensical. The Slavs were worn out before the Celts.
> [...]
> The Western comprehension of energy is strange to the character of the Slav.
> [...]
> Look at the facts, compare, analyze, study. There is in the world one great Slav Empire.
> [...]
> Thus, this empire (the Russian) does not have of Norman other than the fact itself of it's existence.
> [...]

>>22304089
Don’t care who Hitler was quoting (there is nothing to do with what Hitler said in what I quoted from him) he believed it.

>>22304073
The nazis were collectivists you retard. Of course they pretended that their notion of Aryandom was collectivistic. But to actually get an idea of the Aryans one only has to look at the form of their government wich was individualistic (that means that decisions are met by individuals rather than by groups), aristocratic (noblemen, monarchs), capitalistic (private property is legal), and de-centralized (the state never exercised much power over it's active participants and if it didn't act in their interests the former state would soon split in two opposed parties.

>>22304110
And Hitler was a total retard like all the other nazis. They took the name of Aryan probably to appeal to people who believed in racial theories just like they took the term socialist to appeal to the factory workers without actually caring much about the ideas those terms originally portrayed.

>>22304111
Are you mental? This is my first reply to you: >>22303791. I never implied I was talking about anything other than Hitler’s and Nazism’s conception of the Aryan, you retard. Then you replied that they didn’t think about it, then that they had a purely phenotypical, superficial conception of it, then that their conception was not as what I said it was, now you are attacking the fact that I’m talking about Nazi’s conception of the Aryan. Literal insane retard.
Also give me your sources for individualistic and or aristocratic form of government, their views on private property and decentralized government. Not defying the claim, just out of curiosity.

>>22304115
The masses didn’t have theoretical views on race, nor religious beliefs concerning Aryanism, as if Ariosophy was something every 20th century German believed in. Also, he wanted factory workers to side with him because he believed in the labour force and thought it was coopted by Bolshevik Jews to spoil this idea he had of the Aryan. You are a retard.

>>22304161
> Nazism’s conception of the Aryan, you retard. Then you replied that they didn’t think about it, then that they had a purely phenotypical, superficial conception of it, then that their conception was not as what I said it was, now you are attacking the fact that I’m talking about Nazi’s conception of the Aryan
Well the Nazis are known for being ideologically inconsistent, they probably believed all those things at the same time but I take the criticism.
> Also give me your sources for individualistic and or aristocratic form of government, their views on private property and decentralized government
Literally just study the European governments of the Middle Ages, the government of the Classical Greek city states, the Shahnameh and the Mahabharata as well as the pagan religions of those people, or, if you are able to read French, the respective Volumes about those societies in the books of Arthur de Gobineau.
> The masses didn’t have theoretical views on race, nor religious beliefs concerning Aryanism,
No, neither were they the only demographic in Weimar. It was only in 1918 that the rule of the king and the nobilities was abolished in Germany and their descendants were still alive. Not to talk about the bourgeoisie who made up like 40% of the population.

>thread about Hobbes’s Leviathan

>aryan this
>Nazi that
>Hitler this

Maybe the real Leviathan is the society we made along the way..

>>22304571
The deboonking bots did not successfully derail so they brought in Hitleria.

>>22298996
>>22302723
A system that relies on the right man beings in charge is a shit system.

How many of you read the book, how many of you skimmed the wikipedia page, how many of you are piecing together your knowledge of the topic through context clues ITT?

>>22305269
wow you must really feel good about yourself right now.

>>22299888
>The existence of the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany refuted it. The leviathan state is only as good as the people running it. Machiavelli won.
Moldbug reconciles those pretty well. The insecurity of party leadership in states like that increases the drive to purge all possible dissenters, unlike in traditional authoritarian states where the king would just be replaced by a brother or son, meaning you can't take down the system by killing him.

>>22305248
Nigga ALL systems rely on the right person (or people) being in charge. Unless you want an AI technocracy.
Monarchy reduces problems to a single point of failure in an educated person probably born for the sole purpose of rulership. Much better than democracies where the niggercattle have de jure power but are just the medium for oligarchs to rule autocratically anyway, and here, unlike a king whom you KNOW has all the power, oligarchs have zero accountability whatsoever because they’re never taken into account.
Leviathan works both in the abstract and practically.
>what if the king is shit
What if the people are shit

>>22305313
>>22305313
And that drive makes the state waste all of its resources on protecting itself like a cornered rat, congratulations.

All leviathan states come to one of two conclusions. Either the country devolves into a soviet parody of a state and eventually falls apart due to waste of resources or it flies to close to the sun and gets put in its place by everyone else.

>>22305378
A monarchy doesn't prevent someone else more competent than the king to build up enough power to rule, especially if the king happens to be incompetent at the time, which is a common occurrence with spoiled sheltered brats. Democracy is also horrible don't get me wrong, equally to authoritarianism.

>>22305275
Why? do you feel really good about yourself when you ask rhetorical questions?

>>22304571
>4chan thread
>degenerates into discussion of nazis and racial purity
Every fucking time.

>>22298440
i like the spinoff, always thought the long walls were a cute touch

The monarch in Leviathan isn’t the same as “l'etat, c'est moi” (which just means “I’m the king, fuck you”) because the monarch is only all-powerful insofar as he enforces the social contract.

>>22298426
You are going to want to read this lil nigga