/lit/ - Literature

>>22265172
why don't you go start a family with a whore of craigslist

>>22265172
Starting a family is too normie. It’s a crass biological solution to an existential problem.

>>22265172
Because he was a bitter asshole who looked down upon everyone else.

Because this isn't Crime and Punishment

>>22265172
Because he was mentally ill, he had a kind of dysphoria, not necessarily gender, also obvious severe personality disorder a la Elliott Rodger.

>>22265172
That's the point of the book. He constantly sabbotages himself. He is afraid of being anything, he is bitter, afraid to be open with others, so when he sees his facade of a cold indiferent asshole start to slip he has to make himself miserable and pathetic again, he also jumps st the opportunity of putting other people down as he feels he's been put down before by others "above him"(you can see this behaviour in this board at times).He is coping, scared to fail, so much so he would rather tell himself it was over from the start and he's NGMI. He is like an incel in a way.
You should read crime and ounishment next. I think all of /lit/ should read this book. If they were to analyse why he ruined his life and avoid his mistakes, rather than just vopy what he does, we would see a lot less of the angry people we see now

>>22265172
He lives in a hell of his own making, and it is with him wherever he is. I would know.

>>22265202
He’s literally me

The letters from the medical student hit him in the ego. His inferiority complex wouldn't allow him to settle with her because he would always be the second choice to the medical student.

>>22265194
oh that's me haha

He reminds me of wings of redemption

>>22265172
He was born into a society that had undermined all traditional values, and then due to his exceptional intelligence he learned early on to consider himself above and against other people to a degree that would shame a medieval aristocrat. With no community of any kind to provide a baseline belief system, he lacks any basis for believing, valuing or being anything, so he constantly questions whatever he thought five minutes ago, wages war against himself until he can't even say with certainty that he should value his own self-interest. He knows everyone else is better than him and that he's better than them, and he hates them for both reasons. His type is extremely common especially on 4chan but he's an impossibly pure example, probably no real person could be quite that bad. Just a loathsome little worm creature who deserves only suffering.

>>22265172
He cannot embody anything because his head is too full of contradictory ideas on himself and hundreds of other concepts. If he tried to help her he'd feel as if he were playing a fake character and lacerate himself; his perception of her would also change rapidly as well. If he didn't ruin it that night he would've done so eventually.

>>22267224
While I agree, 4chan also has a lot of Christian people, recently.

>>22267224
i find his crude sincerity a redeemable quality. in general i donf read him as a "little worm creature who deserves only suffering".completely melodramatic idea. you talk o him like he was some kind of proto-villain of a marvel movie.

>>22267517
You're not wrong, I'm definitely oversimplifying, but I do think it's a decent summary. The guy is not good, and if your takeaway from the book is just "don't be like this guy" you're doing okay. But yeah obviously Dostoyevsky isn't exactly for following the herd either, and there's a sense in which the worm guy is more admirable than like a reddit atheist, who *wants* to be like him and reject all irrationally-held beliefs but is too dumb and self-satisfied to get past the first step.

because he was a total autist. look at how he handled social situations with his old schoolmates

>>22267363
because we read Dostoevsky and watch Jordan Peterson. It's the logical conclusion

I went to a psychologist once and he told me to read this book

>>22267765
I wouldn't feel so sympathetic with him. He's a bugman in the hierarchy of evil. Sure he's been hurt at a young age by the behaviour of other people and by the cynical and corrupted environment he grew up in, but this doesn't really turn him into a victim or a hero.
He is constantly choosing in his head to retaliate and be an asshole with everyone instead of letting other options take shape in his mind, even if it means self annihilation. He has moments of aperture but he never misses a chance to turn them into further reasons to foster resentment and escalate into aggression.
What kind of man get to fuck an attractive 20yo female, him being an ugly and repulsive 40yo, even getting a sentimental attachment from her only to turn this into a grotesque hate driven act of humiliation of the unfortunate girl?
He's been shed a quite rare ray of light and he shat on it.
Let him roll in his own shit, who gives.

>>22265202
Can he even be fixed in the first place?

>>22270013
I believe so yes. But he has to change. For example raskolnikov in crime and punishment changed and fixed his life

>>22270076
>he has to change
Divine intervention?

>>22270083
Could be, but i was thinking more of a leap of faith like what kierkergaard said.
There are other ways to change, anything that makes him stop the tangled line of thought that has him trapped would work.

>>22270091
I doubt that a man who cannot give and receive love can change. Basically his anger and suffering are the only things he has. For him, its better this than feeling nothing. Sure he could take the faith leap and sweep his past problems under destiny's rug but that alone wouldnt stop resentment.

>>22270099
His anger and suffering are just copes. He sees himself as both above and beneath being someone and changing himself. His resentment is only an issue because he never channels it in any way, he just turns it inward.
The reason he can't love is because he hates himself. He always feels inferior to others, but because of that he feels that others see him as an inferior and thus has to act like he is somehow better than all of them. So when he recieves love he feels both undeserving and sees that he can use it to hurt others in his percieved social hierarchy.
He needs to have some hope than he can change, and feel that he is worthy of making that change.

>>22270129
>because of that he feels that others see him as an inferior
Was the cycle broken (temporarely) when Liza actually came to his place?

>>22265202
I read it some time ago and felt nothing but vindicated.

>>22270583
Why?

>>22270209
yes but then he ruined it. i think change has to come from within. not just waiting for a woman to fix you like it happens in other books. As the old saying goes"how can you love someone if you don't love yourself", he rejected love because he couldn't love himself and couldn't resist putting her down.
>>22270583
you shouldn't, for your own good, you can be a better person anon!

>>22265172
He didn’t start a family with her because he was simply too fucked up. He didn’t want a relationship in the first place let alone marriage. He was just an incredibly intelligent person that hated himself. Felt incredibly inferior yet at the same time held onto any superiority he could manage. He didn’t let himself be open and vulnerable to her because he always had to think he was in a position of dominance. That’s why he went on that whole tirade with her at the whorehouse, she called him on his bullshit. He was an incredibly interesting person and it’s crazy how Dostoevsky can write such characters with such detail.

>>22270076
>For example raskolnikov in crime and punishment changed and fixed his life
No he did not. Raskolnikov believes all the same things before the start of the novel that he believes at the last page. What you're thinking of is when Dostoevsky writes on the FINAL page of the novel "Raskolnikov changed... do you want proof? Well, to be continued..." That's literally what happened. C&P is utter garbage and the LAST thing that Raskolnikov EVER did in C&P was CHANGE. He is one of the most stagnant characters in all literature

>>22270666
How can even love yourself when your life is that shitty?

>>22270666
>you should sympathise with the main character because poor guy he had le trauma
midwit take

>>22265172
Because she was a hooker with a blown-out hole

>>22270680
The actual timeline in the book wasn’t that long of a time. What do you mean stagnant characters? Are people supposed to flip their whole worldview on a dime? If you think he doesn’t change throughout the book then I honestly feel bad for you.

>>22270685
your life being shitty and loving yourself are different issues. you see less suicide in countries that are very shit, and you see people with good lives who hate themselves too.
obviously making your life better will help but they are different things. for example, Liza also has a miserable life, but she doesn't hate herself like the underground man does. she sees herself as worthy of salvation and of love from the guy who gave her the love letter.
>>22270693
i don't do this because he's the main character. nor do i like him or agree with what he does or think he is justified. im telling anons who are like that character to change because i think his behavior is horrible and destructive to both themselves and the people around them.
dosto wrote the book to warn about and study this type of person, so trying to understand him and then trying to see how to avoid being like him or to stop being like him is what the book is for. not to justify it

>>22270770
there's nothing left if one takes his inferiority away.

>>22270737
>What do you mean stagnant characters?
They don't change. They are the same from beginning to end. C&P is set up to revolve around a static character's reaction to an event and Dostoevsky constantly has to use cheap gimmicks to make us believe the plausibility of Raskolnikov's actions (I can't count how many times the narrator directly said something like, "yes this action seems fake, but it's actually true, it really happened")
>If you think he doesn’t change throughout the book then I honestly feel bad for you.
Confirmed never read C&P. He doesn't change, at all. Not even a little bit. Which is why Dostoevsky has to merely tell us that love changed him at the very end and his evidence is literally "to be continued..." there is ZERO proof in the entire novel that love changed Raskolnikov. He believes exactly the same monomaniacal egotistical bullshit while he's in prison

>>22265172
A conscious man cannot become anything seriously. He was too conscious of his own flaws and insecurities to commit to a relationship with Liza. Notice that for a moment he tries to maintain his facade as someone wise and honourable. but in the end he simply gives up and chooses to be who he thinks he really is, a pathetic and bitter person. Ultimately the underground man is stuck in a unbreakable cycle. Because he is aware of his faults he cannot become anything, but as long as he remains the same his faults will only grow worse

>>22270969
Whats the solution? Dumbing yourself down?

>>22271003
The solution is not believing that sad cope. A totally isolated and idle person can't become anything, but if you care about one other person or do one thing you take pride in you've got something.

>>22267224
>Just a loathsome little worm creature who deserves only suffering.
you should really do something about that self-hatred, anon.

>>22269651
>choosing
Ha!

Apparently this whole book is about people who suffer from severe Narcissism. The Last Psychiatrist had a good take on it. Hell is the inability to love others, not being able to receive love yourself. That's what I remember from his analysis.

I've put off reading this novel for years, I'm too scared of it. It's sitting in my shelf.

>>22271399
This niggas girly no cap

>>22265172
There is a certain sweetness to be found in self destruction, unlike any other.
When you give all the money you have in your pocket to a beggar.
When you overindulge in alcohol, far past the point of drunkenness, and you continue drinking knowing that you shouldn't.
When you generously loan money to family, knowing you won't ever get it back, not because you want to help them, but because you want to have less of it.
When you concoct the most vile, hurtful thing you can imagine and you tell it to a chick you vibe with.
It all stems from a deep self-loathing, one that's usually warranted.

>>22271417
Fr fr I'm deadass afraid I'll find out the underground man is literally me and there is no escape

>>22271482
>there is no escape

>>22271486

>>22271504
>Oh no I don't believe in God
>He's totally dead
>I think I'm becoming nihilistic
>OHHHHHH NOOOOOO I'M SEEING A HORSE GETTING WHIPPED, I, I THINK I'M GOING INSANE HELP ME NIGGERMAN
Yeah, posting that fag is not the gotcha you think it is.

>>22271504
If anything, the single most scathing criticism of Christianity I've ever seen came from Dostoyevsky.
Should have posted the grand inquisitor, faggot.

>>22271520
Seethe speaks for itself. Try to be less girly next time.

>>22271399
>TLP
Interesting blog. Wish he did more literary analysis.

>>22271526
>not an argument

>>22271504
Christcucks immediately frothing in rage

>>22271607
And this is why making any threads on Nietzsche should be a ban-able offence. Most Christiana will not make posts in good faith and half of the posters will not have read him anyway. I wish they could've made a board for philosophy/religion.

>>22265172
Damn it’s almost like getting married/starting a family isn’t a magical fix for your inner problems. Crazy how people still haven’t realized this.

>>22271450
Did you got this from the book or your own lived experience? Tell us your story anon
>>22271486
I'm in North Europe and I never understood why I should vibe with a bunch of stories from the desert whether they be Christian, Muslim or Kike variety.

So yeah it seems I'm going with >>22271504
Übermensch or die trying fr fr no cap

>>22268171
Is Peterson even christian though?

>>22271524
The grand inquisitor is about the corruption of church, not the religion. In modern times that inquisitor could be a high ranking catholic pedophile.

>>22271195
>what is accountability
you think like a low IQ bitch

>>22265188
Nice. Based.

>>22273278
Well that’s a different word there, sport.

Someone once posted the first page of this claiming it was their amateur writing and asked for advice and I didn't think it was very good.

>>22271450
Fuck man most of those except you can substitute alcohol for drugs and girls. I'd even provoke them to hurt me but never hurt back.
The protagonist was literally me as much as I hate to write it.

>>22273494
Fucking phoneposting
>I've done mines of those things...

>>22271399
>Hell is the inability to love others, not being able to receive love yourself
Is there even an escape from this?