/lit/ - Literature

Not relevant, but I just wanted to say,

Karl Marx was a freemason

>>22260284
They have both volumes of Das Kapital at my local B&N. Should I open the book, hock a loogie onto a random page then put it back? Would anyone even notice? What are the ethics of doing this? I haven’t read, nor do I understand Marx.

>>22260284
I think part of the attractive for some people is that marxism is unfalsifiable because the economic calculation problem makes it impossible to ever happen. No one knows how to make communism work. Not even Marx knew and he was open about it and said the answers would present themselves eventually. This makes communism very attractive as a secular religion. It's ultimately an utopian project based on faith, not unlike heaven, but the last man can fool himself believing it's a science. If instead communism were a more rigorous project with a clear outline of how it would work, then I don't think it would be nearly as popular.

>>22260284
>How can someone be wrong about literally everything and still have such a dedicated following?
Understanding that is one of the key points to understanding humanity. We are not logic machines, we are not scientists. That evil can perpetuate itself through the minds of the easily convinced is a danger of which we need to be always aware.

These past few years in the west should have taught you something. People will give in to the totalitarian impulse very, very easily.

>>22260284
Same as all other statist cucks/capitalist cucks in this modern age still thirsty for a church replacement. If not Marxists, it’s fascists or goldbugs or Bitcoiners. Spooks spooks spooks.

>>22260330
>economic calculation problem
You know that won't be longer an issue with AI, right?

>>22260284
wrong pic

>>22260284
Do you really think you are smarter than every marxist phd living right now?
maybe he wasn't wrong about everything retard. I haven't even studied much marx but i am 100% sure i could respond to any critique of marxism you have

>>22260365
>Do you really think you are smarter than every marxist phd living right now?
Yes, I do.

>>22260366
Then you obviously are one of those right wing nutjobs who think they know better than the experts because you know how to use google. How is long covid treating you? kek

>>22260366
That's just beyond arrogant. I hope you don't truly believe that

>>22260284
because if you are poorer than average you will hope the state redistributes everyone's assets so you can have more = you like Marx

if you are richer than average, you hope to god the state doesn't take away your money = you dislike Marx

simple as that, nothing to do with intelligence

>>22260386
It's not as simple. Most marxists are richer than average. It's more a matter of:

If you don't think you can succeed by your own merits = you like Marx.

If you think you can succeed by your own merits = you dislike Marx.

>>22260366
Based.

>>22260415
I think your version is more accurate use of words. was what I was getting at.

>>22260284
He was fucking funny. Also, a genuinely talented journalist. As a theorist though, he is not very impressive.

>>22260365
>>22260385
Death is all your kind deserves. You are the enemy of humanity and snakes like you must be plucked from the grass and beheaded wherever they are found.

>>22260284
>wrong
They are literally running a spin-off of his shit on China. Look at them.

>>22260433
He was an evil man who hated existence. He's really not different from most far left liberals, he viewed life as torture and thought it would be best if humanity were to be wiped from the globe. Anyone who thinks like that is a resentful madman.

>>22260284
as already said, the basic cog in the machine, the worker, will hope for better conditions.
the religionless PhD looks for an idol.
it's very easy to get indoctrinated by such an ideology, and very hard to disillusion yourself.
you see the contemporaries often end up doing something horrible once the illusion breaks.

furthermore, it's so easy especially because of its formless worldview and weaponization of language.
as you can see in this thread itself, there's a lot of ad hominems and non sequitur arguments.
if those are ignored, and a proper point is made, semantics and etymology are focused on, in detriment of the rest.
in the last case, they may concede to a point to trap you in another.

and, of course, if you discuss the next day, they'll repeat the same point with the same conviction.

it's the logical equivalent of giving a completely wrong answer and, when confronted, covering your ears and screaming.

finally, they're, as mentioned, looking for an idol to fix the world.
the communist worldview is just out of reach and seems functional.
they can put all their hope on that and work towards that mirage of a goal.
it only leads to the degeneration and breakdown of society and the positive status quo.
not to forget the empathic point of feeling like you'll "help the workers and people".

>>22260439
>Look at them.
Yeah.

marxism is just concentrated emotional seething
pure envy, simple as

education is FREE all over developed world
it is YOUR FAULT you reached mid 20s without knowing how to build nuclear reactors, perform triple bypass heart surgeries, or fly fighter jets
even 3rd worlders are moving to countries with free education and healthcare, if you didnt figure this out yet you have 80 iq and you are not gonna make it
simple as frfr no cap not rayciss just dont like em

>we have nothing to lose but our chains!
you are obese and unemployed, unemployable
>check out my sickle and hammer tattoo!
you have never touched let alone worked with a sickle or a hammer
>we need to unionize!
and produce what? the issue was always that you are unskilled and unproductive, multiply a 0 by 7 trillion global unions, its still 0
>muh capitalism! its unfair! it just is! i want to be rich too! how can other people be rich and stupid?!?! i want that too!!!
dont care + didnt ask + you are absolutely never gonna make it
as long as private sector, lottery free, nepotism free, competitive, marketable, meritocratic ventures and opportunities exist, capitalism is just fine...
learn to code, learn welding, unironically learn a marketable skill and stop being mentally underage leftist you 30 year old blue haired freak, the working class votes conservative just to tell YOU to get off my fucking lawn

>>22260449
Considering their starting point, they got pretty far.

>>22260439
>They are literally running a spin-off of his shit on China. Look at them.
>horrible hellstate with no individual liberty or agency, no surviving culture, weighing so oppressively on the mind that not a single one of them can ever be anything but a worker drone insect
Oh yeah Marxism is so successful, turning people into equitable grey goo cogs in the machine beholden to a class structure far worse than any free capitalist society in the world.

>>22260353
You don’t know what AI is, anon. You know fairy tales and wishful thinking about it.

>>22260444
Make a proper point against marxism then

>>22260477
is it an ideal impractical and impossible plan.
human nature alone, by virtue of envy and selfishness would break the system down, as has happened in all cases where it was tried.

marxism is, ironically, the opium of the people. a reason to live amidst their condition, a "hope", since they've tried to abolish God.

>>22260284
Capitalism is the most important force in the world by far. It’s important to understand and be aware of what it does and how it affects us. Plenty of his analysis is still valid - but you’ve never read him or actually studied so you wouldn’t know.

>>22260467
They have some freedom, but again, they started as some literal irrelevant shit hole. I'm not even saying that they haven't paid a "huge price" for it, but they are doing shit.

>>22260467
not to forget the explosions against that, like the murders of politicians and the ever present contraband and udnerground systems.
iirc they even made P2P webs.

>>22260377
>How is long covid treating you?

>be american
>eat shitty processed foods covered in synthetic fertilizers, pesticides, plastics, heavy metals, grown as GMO etc.
>wonder why you feel so sick all the time
>"OH MY SCIENCE IT MUST BE BECAUSE I DIDN'T TAKE THE HECKIN' VACCINE :O"

>>22260512
that's a result of the concessions to the capitalist system.
not to forget their luck on basically being made into the makers of everything in the world, on top of being a commodity behemoth.

Marxism has got to be one of the biggest fucking spooks ever, meaning a thousand different things to different people, even among marxists themselves.

>>22260284
Ik,r?

>>22260353
Communists used to say the same thing about computers.

>>22260520
>be right winger nutjob
>don't trust the experts
>get long covid
See how both of us can play this game?

>>22260460
I can't tell you much about other people, but in my life this is untrue. I'm a lathe machinist manufacturing brass joints for the navy shipyards in my state, and I'm a far leftist. My brother works with me as a pourer and heavy machine operator in the foundry and he is a far leftist. My older sister is a welder for a filtration and purification manufacturer, she is a socialist. My mother has worked as an industrial administrator my whole life, and she is a leftist. My sister works manufacturing lamps, and she is a leftist. My eldest brother passed away after an accident working as a laborer and contractor, he was a leftist. My father passed away from COPD from his time as a steel erector, millworker and carpenter. He was not a leftist, but his, my mother and my brother's lives impacted me deeply.

A lot of what people say may be true in part, but I will lionize them, and it gives me hope.

>>22260660
It sounds like you're a leftist because that's the environment you grew in. Nothing wrong with that though, but it's not really representative of the kind of people that become leftists.

>>22260353
Communists believe in collective action, protests, solidarity to achieve their goals, however. Once AI shapes the economy it will be unrecognizable from any present political ideology. Any AI system capable of making near true post-scarcity would by definition have a system no one has ever come up with before

>>22260607
>>get long covid
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAH

>>22260284
Having a PhD hasn't meant anything for almost a century.

>>22260377
Nice bait

Someone post the letter to Marx from a rabbi thanking him for spreading the doctrine by which the jews would take all of thr goyims property, thereby fulfilling talmudic prophecies.

>>22260340
Blacks blacks blacks

>>22260607
To be fair true socialism is against the state

>>22260721
Wah wah racism

>>22260660
I think there are two types of far leftists. First you have the ones everyone know about. The resentful bottom of the barrel who can't achieve anything by themselves and have nothing to lose so they join forces. In this category I would also put the likes of school teachers and journalists and so on, who may not be at the very bottom of the barrel, but they can only make use of their talents with the help of a big state apparatus, so they prefer credentialism to meritocracy. But then you have a smaller subset of far leftists who don't seem to fit this type at all. Instead they are often good looking, hard working, sociable, and smart, and who could easily accomplish things by their own merits. In this category I would also put academics from prestigious institutions, who may not be at the very top in terms of human qualities, but are still very accomplished. I think the difference between these two categories of leftists is that while the first want to abolish liberalism purely out of a sense of resentment and having nothing to lose, the second type doesn't really dislike liberalism, but has been over-socialized by it, so their problem with liberalism is that they think it comes short at fulfilling its promises of prosperity for everyone, so they see communism as a perfected form of it.

>>22260735
>they can only make use of their talents with the help of a big state apparatus
You rely on this too, but are either too stupid to notice it or too well-behaved for it to feel intrusive. Unless you are doing some low-wage low-prestige manual "work" that was invented hundreds of years ago if not thousands and which in developed countries is predominately done by helotry, whatever you are bringing to market is totally enmeshed in the power of the modern state and its stakeholders to deploy tremendous amounts capital and protect its owners through laws and regulations. Not a marxist but it is ridiculous to think you're some self-made cowboy because you work in the private sector or live off investments or have some other job that would be nearly impossible without the system protecting you.

>>22260284
It's a kind of secular religion, therefore what is right or wrong is irrelevant. Marxism is based on a moral ground first, not truth or reason. What you see as failures or misery from regimes based on this ideology are a feature, not a bug.

>>22260714
Whilst that letter was verifiably published in a Rothschild magazine actual and seems to perfectly foreshadow the now memory holed WEF's 'you will own nothing an be happy' as well as neatly correlating with the Talmudic prophecy of total Jewish world domination for their snake demon Yahweh, it paints Jews in a bad light and is therefore anti semitic and must be disregarded.

>>22260490
>appeal to human nature

He was a good diagnostician and he actually did have some understanding of monetary economics, agreeing entirely with Smith on what made state-issued money valuable (taxation). He just couldn't grasp the problem of value.

>>22260735
>their problem with liberalism is that they think it comes short at fulfilling its promises of prosperity for everyone, so they see communism as a perfected form of it.
retard

>>22260785
NTA, but appealing to nature is not a fallacy in this case because we are discussing the structure of society, and human nature must be considered. You would consider an animal's nature when determining how to care for it.

>>22260765
>AKSHUALLY
Fucking redditors, man. Are you autistic? You're missing the point by taking it too literally and not considering the implications of what I said. The point is that some jobs only exist to strength the state apparatus and if you minimized the state these people suddenly would be without a job. There's not a genuine demand in society for journalists whose entire job is using their platform for political activism nor for human resource departments focused in increasing diversity nor for teachers teaching kids about homosexuality and so on. You get the drill. Not to mention all the people filling the unnecessary positions in the government. These jobs only exist because people lacking in qualities banded together to make them exist. There's a big difference between that and someone working on producing food or creating something of great value. And sure, the later also needs the state, but the point, again, is that, unless a society is doing awfully bad, skillful and competent people will find success regardless if the state is big or small or almost non existent, while incompetent people's success is more often than not proportional to the size of the state.

>>22260797
I don't think even Marx would disagree with that. He was a teleological thinker. Every step in historical materialism is a depuration of what came before, which is why he didn't predict communism would first be tried in agrarian societies, since they needed to step into liberalism first.

>>22260808
You can postulate any nonsense based on human nature because human nature is not concretely defined.

>>22260827
Marxism isn't a "depuration of liberalism", you fucking imbecile. Have you read any theory? Marxism is antithetical to liberalism. The whole point of Marxism is destroying liberalism because humanity is being enslaved by capital. It's the worst thing that has happen to humanity. It literally cannot be depurated, which is why it must be abolished entirely.

>>22260839
>the general psychological characteristics, feelings, and behavioral traits of humankind, regarded as shared by all humans
That sounds pretty concrete to me.

>>22260848
The absolute STATE of social """scientists""".

>>22260853
Lol seethe harder plz

>>22260843
Philosophically Marxism just takes liberalism a step farther you dumb tranny.

>>22260843
Layman here... Can you explain what exactly you mean by "enslaved by capital"?

>>22260843
Not the anon you're arguing with, but you're wrong. Marx was obviously extremely critical of capitalism, but he didn't saw it as something demonic. As a hegelian, he just thought the synthesis of capitalism and its contradictions would bring something better. aka communism. He even celebrated whenever a feudal society started to embrace liberalism, because he saw it as a confirmation of his ideas on history.

>>22260467
>horrible hellstate with no individual liberty or agency, no surviving culture, weighing so oppressively on the mind that not a single one of them can ever be anything but a worker drone insect
Western nations are turning into the same thing. Today's "culture" is consumerist trash that you buy and your "personal liberty" is whatever propaganda you spew out on social media.

>>22260284
Capitalism is retarded in the sense that it props up merchants as the ideal of society that everyone should try to imitate. And if you actually enjoy working you are cattle and lack the aristocratic values of higher men. If your only concern is money and gold, then I see you as no different than a sickly heroin addict buck broken by liberalism. Communism isn’t the solution though because it’s slave morality and negates healthy instincts and higher values. I’ll keep my third position.

>>22260284
>How can someone be wrong about literally everything and still have such a dedicated following?
Marxism is a religion for atheists. People who are smart enough to not believe in God, but still feel a need for some belief in transcendence, justice, an afterlife and some rational meaning in human history. Marxism provides that in a "scientific" formula that doesn't require belief in supernatural miracles like the Holy Spirit going around doing shit, but only "laws of nature" and economic mechanisms.

>>22260815
>Are you autistic?
I am neurodivergent, but at least I'm not a piece of shit who feels the need to insult people in the internet because they didn't get the exact meaning of what I wanted to say. Maybe next time you should consider conveying your ideas better instead of getting mad because people couldn't understand you.

>>22260872
>Today's "culture
There is so much music and literature and cinema available, it's the best time ever in history to be a person who appreciates art. There are niche groups for any artistic inclination you might have, you just have to find them. There is even high quality classical style painting being produced today.

>>22260878
>it props up merchants as the ideal of society that everyone should try to imitate.
Such as

>>22260815
>These jobs only exist because people lacking in qualities banded together to make them exist.
The existence of these sorts is the consumption of a surplus, not unlike prestigous medieval religious institutions were committed to swallowing up. You can shriek and howl all you like that they don't do any "real" work and directly need the state to fund themselves but it changes nothing. You will seethe and their standard of living will continue because people like you are paying their taxes. Perhaps you are the autistic one since you believe productivity is its own end.

>>22260895
>people like you are paying their taxes
I live in the third world and I don't pay taxes.

>>22260460
it does not matter how much you suck off your boss or your company; they will never love you back, and you will never be a billionaire

>>22260897
Your country pays tribute in human capital to mine on a regular basis I am sure, which allows a decent number of my compatriots to become secular clergy.

>>22260815
>unless a society is doing awfully bad, skillful and competent people will find success regardless if the state is big or small or almost non existent
>picrel
you only hear about the ones who survived

>>22260284
I love /lit/ marx threads because every psued who looks like this comes out and displays that they don't understand marx at all. I would wish for it to be different but that would require /lit/ to read a book

>>22260914
That man's physiology is perfectly adapted to his profession, with no energy wasted on unproductive posture or vain appearances. He's the ultimate symbol of meritocratic systems in action.

>>22260914
This. It's hilarious how all the incels on this board think they will become billionaires any day now lmao. If they knew what is in their best interest they would flip so hard they would start fucking worshiping Marx

I think I disagree with Marx on almost every single metaphysical position that underlies his system, but somehow I still think that his economic critique is still very good. I'm honestly surprised about how a guy who was so wrongheaded in his fundamental beliefs about the world could manage to be so insightful

>>22260921
I, too, would vastly prefer hard labor concentration camps to my current middle class lifestyle

>>22260933
Yeah, anon, you will become a billionaire any day so keep wageslaving kek

>>22260892
Quality is totally superior to quantity.

>>22260934
Will you save me, daddy? I want to be suspected of sedition and worked to death like all good communist subjects

>>22260933
Why did you say the same thing twice?

>>22260914
This is what the average marxtard looks like, except less white and more fat.

>>22260921
Nobody thinks they will be billionaires, they just disagree with idiotic materialist marxist ideology because this board "redpilled".

>>22260307
>both
there are three

>>22260941
I just jacked off to loli hentai after smoking 6 grams of weed and slamming an energy drink. This quality of life can't be matched by communist societies.

>>22260941
He was worked so hard on an ensemble line like a good wageslave now his brain is in a constant loop lmao. Motherfucker is like Chaplin in Modern Times

>Marx thread railing against Marxists
Marx's contribution is greater than just, "Marxism", or communism; his materialist theory of capitalism is still relevant today regardless of your politics.

>>22260950
>People should be, like, equal maaan
No.
>Stuff should just be, like, free maaaaaan
No.

It's retarded

>>22260934
He just said he's middle class. If he's materially better off than he would be under communism, why would he want communism? What does it offer? It doesn't offer anything more spiritually fulfilling, in fact it's the opposite. It also has killed hundreds of millions after enslaving and starving them. I can't stand capitalism, doesn't mean I want communism or think Marx was right, he was wrong about a lot, he just had some not bad critiques of capitalism, and now is totally out-of-date and not worth reading. OK is right too

>>22260950
>materialist theory of capitalism
B-but, a-anon! The incels here will say historical materialism is wrong because of... reasons? They haven't even read Marx though kek

>>22260932
>metaphysical
From my understanding, Marx being a Hegelian, his metaphysics obviates the need for metaphysics, being a material science and not concerning itself with metaphysics in the first place

>>22260950
>his materialist theory of capitalism is still relevant today
Kek

Marxists epitomize midwittery.

>>22260958
why do you dimwits seethe so much about midwits?

>>22260956
Why would I waste time reading a shitty, out of date jewish philosopher propped up by bankers whose ideology killed hundreds of millions of people? You idiot.
>incels
As opposed to the average marxcuck, who is probably just a tranny or a severely obese low IQ bulldyke.

>>22260950
I think this anon is one of the only anons in this entire thread who's actually read marx

>>22260964
Touch grass, incel

>>22260952
>people should be like equal man
marx doesn't argue this; not in the way that you're thinking
>stuff should just be like free man
marx does not argue this in the way that you're thinking
>Okay so what does he think then
you have a library card, you go read

>>22260889
holy shit fucking kill yourself

>>22260969
>not in the way that you're thinking
so he does argue it, thoughever

>>22260964
>marx
>propped up by bankers
yes the man who advocated for all wealth to be seized and redistributed, a favorite of bankers kek

>>22260962
They don't, idiot. They join the 140+ IQs to shit on 99 IQ marxtards.

>>22260974
This has to be bait.

>>22260973
if you read marx and what you extract is "people should be like equal man and stuff should be like free man" you have so grievously misunderstood his arguments that you should be tested for a learning disability

This is how I know that despite the airs, /lit/ isn’t well read. Too many brainwashed retards with dogma that start seething immediately when he’s brought up. You don’t have to like communism but his analysis is still worth studying and so are other Marxist leaning analysts. You people are retards.

>>22260978
thoughever you can't refute me

>>22260956
there is clearly a raid going on here and you are clearly seething, kek

>>22260979
But the goo logs

>>22260976
please enlighten me
>HARDMODE: without mentioning meme forgeries like the Protocols of the Elders of Zion
>IMPOSSIBLEMODE: without mentioning jews

>>22260979
>butbutbut cummynism when you no food mister marks

>>22260921
Yes communism has always worked well for the people supporting it.

>>22260968
He refuted you lol

>>22260974
Yes you monumental fucking retard. How are 15 year old spics on /pol/ more awake than you are? International bankers don't care, they fund your revolutions.

>>22260934
Why do you "people" only deal in these idiotic imaginary strawmen. You have no interest in what anyone actually thinks or believes do you.

>>22260979
>his analysis is still worth studying and so are other Marxist leaning analysts.
Not really, he's badly out of date and there are many better more recent thinkers. His ideology is actually just a catastrophe.

>being a comunist
>starves to death
mfw

>>22260993
And capitalism has? Kek. Keep wageslaving, anon. You will be a billionaire in no time

>>22260977
>dimwits magically increasing their IQ
you're a dimwit, aren't you.

>>22260995
kek imagine believing that the bankers would prop up an ideology that says they should be shot and their wealth redistributed. it's like saying deer are in support of hunters

>>22260957
To some extent I agree, and I think that's why he's able to be so insightful. That being said, some of the assumptions that are developed out of his Hegelian background, particularly the teleological aspects of his system, are the real weakness of his work.

>>22260999
>many better more recent thinkers
who?

>>22260979
>still worth studying and so are other Marxist leaning analysts
There are many insightful things in his criticism to capitalism that have aged very well, although many others have aged poorly, but that's expected. Historical materialism and communism are retarded though, and the fact that when you point that out communists usually answer saying "Marx barely talked about communism anyway" says everything about it.

>>22260985
Wall St (Bankers) funded the Bolshevik revolution.

>>22260979
Every Marxist ever says "but you haven't read him."
I read the manifesto and every single thing he said was falsified a century ago and most of what he talked about modern communists pretend he never said.
>But you have to read Kapital
No thanks. I see zero evidence he ever said or did anything worth thinking about.

>>22260999
>badly out of date
You are exactly the retard the other poster was talking about. This is philosophy, not a computer software or some hot meme you fags found on Reddit.

>>22261008
Bro, stop baiting. It's annoying.

>>22261000
We are talking about which benefits average people and given the choice they all fled communist countries to go to capitalist ones.

>be loyal communist
>don't worship [current leader] hard enough
>sent to the goo log
mfw

>>22261003
>magically increasing their IQ
You are not even fully literate.

>>22261008
International bankers literally fund your revolutions. You sound like a retarded high schooler.

>>22261020
He's writing about economics 200 years ago, the field has progressed a long way since then.

>>22261018
>I read the manifesto
>so I've read marx
KEK you read a propaganda pamphlet dashed off in half an hour and you're retarded enough to think it encompasses everything. it's like reading half a shakespeare soliloquy and going "ive READ shakespeare and he SUCKS"

>>22261029
you sound like you look like this, sorry you can't get laid but it's not the jews fault maybe try showering

>>22260599
Yes, the economic calculation problem was only relevant because Mises lived in an era when computation was done on hand. Today, the "calculation problem" is an absolute joke. You could do the calculations on your phone in a few minutes.

>>22261033
>He's writing about economics 200 years ago
he's also writing political economy/philosophy, not just economics. that stuff is still highly relevant as long as we live within capitalism

>>22261046
>You could do the calculations on your phone in a few minutes
What's stopping Cuba and North Korea from abolishing capital then?

>>22261051
They're not communist

>>22261046
now THIS... this is wondrous bait. excellent job

>>22261034
He read a full one of his books and his most famous one, idiot. Why should he waste time reading capital when history proves he was wrong? Read something profound instead, not banker-funded materialist jew propaganda.

>>22261034
If everything he said in it was stupid, and every attempt to put his ideas into practice was a disaster, and everyone who believes in his ideas is an insufferable idiot, why would I assume I should read more?
Maybe instead of telling people to read the book, which you know they won't do, you should actually make the arguments from that book. But that's not the point, the point is to win the argument isn't it. argumentum ad bookum
Anyways it's not hard to figure out the basic ideas behind Marxist class theory, Marxist economics, Marxist history, etc. all of which are horrifically wrong. What besides this does the book have that I need to know about?

>>22260914
Both of you are ugly. Stop playing the pageant game cause both of you will lose.

>>22260945
3 is a fan fiction written by Engels.

>>22261057
>He read a full one of his books and his most famous one, idiot.
You are so fucking retarded that I don't even know where to start, yet you are so fucking sure that you're correct. Please tell me more of your thoughts and opinions on things I need a good laugh

>>22261039
He refuted you and all you could do was call him a chud lol

Marxtards are even more stupid than I had suspected.

>>22261054
Neither is Maduro Venezuela, Khmer Rouge Cambodia, Soviet Russia, etc either right

>>22261051
Greed, which is not the same as human nature, so don't even dare to bring up that bullshit.

>>22261033
Economics is a soft "science", dumbass. In other words, it's mostly made up and perspective-based.

>>22261066
You tell me, dipshit

>>22261064
I wonder what discord server they crawled out of tonight...

>>22261064
He refuted you and all you could do was call him a Marxtard lol

Chuds are even more stupid than I had suspected.

>>22261059
>everyone who believes in his ideas is an insufferable idiot
>muh argumentum ad bookum
oh no no no anon, you don't get to commit fallacy while screaming fallacy. if you're going to do the whole fallacy thing have some integrity at least.
>Anyways it's not hard to figure out the basic ideas behind Marxist class theory, Marxist economics, Marxist history, etc.
I know for absolute certain you could not explain what "commodity fetishism" is without googling, even though it's a core marxism 101 concept. in fact I wouldn't be surprised if you'd never heard of it

The Marx Destroyer has entered the chat

>>22261064
>He refuted you
nah he just screeched about DA JOOS like chuds do when they run out of ideas

>>22261075
Is this the guy Marx accused of being a nigger? Because I can see it.

>>22261047
>as long as we live within capitalism
We don't really live within capitalism anymore. Capitalism implies competition which is being taken away more and more, international and government initiatives control economies now. International finance which controls the megacorps and the governments are fading out capitalism into neo-feudalism. This is why marxism is so shitty, they boil everything down to le capital and don't even know how the financial system works today. They don't even care either, they'll just say it's capitalism and keep praying for another pointless and bloody revolution, which will be in the bankers' favour if it ever happens.

>>22261063
Good argument, keep raging. He refuted you btw and I'm a different poster. Marxtards have low iqs.

>>22261077
Communism is Jewish though

>>22261082
case in point

>>22261073
How did he refute me? I refuted him and he had no argument.

>>22261077
Where did i say anything about jews, idiot? I said bankers. Can you even read?

>nah he just screeched about DA JOOS like chuds do when they run out of ideas

>>22261080
>He refuted you btw
kek no he didn't he read a pamphlet and stuck his nose in the air. he's such a retard and so are you

>>22261084
But it is though. You can't even refute it

>>22261089
>I NEVER SAID THAT I NEVER SAID THAT I NEVER SAID THAT
this man's never heard of implication

>>22260353
>>22261046
lol, you guys think it's a computation power issue?

>>22261077
He didn't say anything about jews you dumb tranny

>>22261084
The Bolshevik revolution was ran by jews, funded by jewish bankers. Do you just not have any rebuttal? Cry more about chud (whatever that is), NPC.

>>22261092
>You can't even refute it
>DEBATE MEEEEEEE
no lol

>>22260415
being born with a 10 million dollar trust in your name == succeeding on your own merits jejejej you got it backwards retard

>>22260294
that was just a common way to pose for pictures back then. see any picture of any famous person from that age and they probably posed like that too

>>22261091
He read Marx and thought it was gay, Thats just usually how it goes. Marx appeals to midwit teens and first-year college students who aren't white lmao.

>>22261079
This, they will claim every communist experiment ever didn't count because it wasn't 100% the dictionary definition of communism, then they will call the modern situation "capitalism" even though it fulfills most of Marx's criteria for an actualized communist society.

>>22261097
>who said jews? nobody said jews
>but it's the jews
>debate me bro
retardation shouldn't be this funny

>be communist
>my neighbor hid 6 grains of wheat from the gestapo
>tonight he feasts
mfw

>>22261095
See>>22261015

>>22261103
>capitalism is communism so there
do you normally smoke your breakfast

>>22261102
Marxism is a white thing. Blacks and browns hide behind it for gibs and then move on. In a way, they are the only materialists left in Marxism.

>>22261104
It is, you literally have no rebuttal so instead you resort to ridicule. I see it every thread. Someone inevitably posts the list of jews running the Bolshevik revolution and the bankers who are mostly jewish that funded it, and all you little marxist shitstains can do is try to ridicule it because you have no refutation.

>>22261096
Do you realize that if Mises were alive today he would be a communist, right? He was smart enough to realize that AI would solve the calculation problem, and with that, there's no reason to oppose communism.

>>22261113
>DEBATE MEEEEEEEEE
when a child says two and two make twenty-two, you don't argue with them

>>22261105
You're going to accuse him, right, anon? Those 6 grains could feed 6 party members in high positions in the government.

>>22261107
Has anyone ever met a Marxist who was a bearable person?

>>22261119
A full blown Marxist? No, I don't think so. Every single one I've met has been unhinge. I've met bearable people who see merits in Marx but aren't marxists though.

>>22261107
>shitty strawman
Good argument.

>>22261110
No, it's jewish and nonwhite. No truly white country has ever been communist, plenty of nonwhite countries are communist. Jews are behind communism in the West and probably elsewhere. Whites are far too individualistic to fall for marxism.

>>22261114
Do you really want Mises on your side?

>>22261118
Of course. Kulaks deserve no mercy

>>22261123
Have you considered that you're the unhinge one, bitch? How goes the quote? It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.

>>22261117
I don't care if you debate or not. You've lost at this point, all you have is slander because you have no argument. Bolsheviks were funded by Wall St bankers. /pol/ won, keep coping.

>>22261117
>too afraid to debate jewish influence in marxism and communism
You're the child in this situation.

>>22261132
>YOU TOTALLY HAVE TO DEBATE ME TO PROVE ME WRONG, BRO!
Why are /pol/tards so obsessed with debating? You don't debate with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.

>>22261131
Learn English Paco.

>>22261114
No, all the computation power in the universe doesn't help you with a theoretically unsolvable problem. Not that the calculation problem even makes it into the top ten reasons to oppose communism.

>>22261124
They practiced communism for gibs, it wasn't ideological because blacks and browns are usually retarded. Third worldism is full of naive whites that think browns and blacks are coming to save them, even fascists like Yockey fell for the third world meme.

>>22261135
>gets refuted outright
>throws a tantrum about how he actually doesn't want to debate and cries about /pol/
So fucking funny

>Why are /pol/tards so obsessed with debating? You don't debate with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.

This thread was going okay until the tards showed up and started yelling about Jews. You can’t have any kind of discussion on /lit/ anymore because of those tards. Sad

>>22261143

>>22261141
>They practiced communism for gibs
Yes, that's the entire point, you fucking retard.

>>22261135
You're the stupid one. I made a claim that you can't refute, now you're coping by saying you don't want to debate and are just insulting me like a literal child having a tantrum.

>>22261146
It was going okay until smug leftists started whining that no one here has read Marx because otherwise they wouldn't criticize him

>>22261147

>>22261135
>Why are /pol/tards so obsessed with debating? You don't debate with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.

>>22261146
No, it was awful from the jump. The only good discussions about Marx are in threads that don't have his name in the title, usually threads on third positionism.

>>22261148
no, you started slobbering like a schizo and he made fun of you for it. now you're trying to act like you're the paragon of principled, reasoned debate. jesus chuds are so fucking stupid. makes me laugh so hard it hurts. have fun with your meme ideology, don't tell anyone you picked it up from a mongolian anime imageboard or you'll be laughed out of the room again

>>22261146
People started talking about the wall st international bankers who funded the bolsheviks, then marxcucks started crying because they thought people were talking about jews lmao

>>22261158
I really fucking despise these disillusioned Marxists trying to pivot to third positionism. A new night of the long knifes will be coming for all of you.

Every time marxists try to have a rational discussion on a material basis, why does some encephalitic capitalist slave have to run in, wipe his boss's cum off his lips, and start ranting incoherently about 'human nature' and race?

>>22261159
>i point out the bolsheviks were funded by international bankers
>you seethe so hard and just completely give up on your untenable position and everyone starts laughing at you so you pretend to be a different person
haha JUST!

>>22261166
>marxists
>rational discussion
fucking kek

>>22261166
Most people here who rejects Marxism aren't capitalists but fascists. If anything, I'd say nowadays, among young people at least, a sizable portion of liberals are sympathetic to Marx to some degree.

>>22261173
When did fascists start shilling for capitalism and kike rule?

>>22261160
>wall street, international, bankers
Just say Jewish, you're taking forever

>>22261173
Bouie was quoting the 18th Brumaire in NYT. Jacobin is getting Annenberg Foundation grants. Libtards don't care anymore, they are flexing over the defanged corpse of Marxism. Sorel talked all about it in Reflections on Violence.

>>22261177
only the ones who think if they keep wageslaving will become billionaires kek

>>22261171
>>>NNOOOO economics isnt a science because my fee fees tell me that i freely chose to work doubles at mcdonalds all week! Im a very rational good slave-- i mean individual!

>ctrl f (you)
How many (you)s do you have, anons?

>>22261186
nobody on here thinks that, people here mostly reject capitalism but see marxism as even worse.

>>22261196
take your meds.

>>22261180
nice facebook meme, you'll have to look into it yourself if the bankers and people running the bolsheviks were jewish, i guess do what any good newfag does and go lurk /pol/ for a bit

>>22261200
They’re equally bad.

>>22260892
Being an artist doesn't matter if everyone is doing it. It's actually a testament to how atomized and discontent everyone is that something that should be as transgressive as art is merged thoroughly into the culture.

>>22261212
If you enjoy art for the sake of art, then there has never been a better time to live, because the accumulation of mankind's great art throughout history is such that you can spend your entire life admiring it without seeing the same thing twice.

If Marxism is true, why are we still so far away from communism?

>>22260998
>dumb ESL can't even spell communist correctly

>>22261138
>>22261096
>Lol you think a calculation problem is a computational problem
Yes, it is. The one thing computer scientists actually do is look at calculation problems and sort them into difficulties of how difficult they are to calculate. Cockshott has a PhD in computer science and a bachelor's in economics. He looked at Mises' calculation problem and found how difficult it would be to solve today. It was not difficult and he has an open source simulation you can run that can calculate an economy the size of Sweden on pretty ancient hardware.

>>22261233
Revolt of the proliteriate happens when general profit approaches zero. We are slowly getting there but new markets keep opening up which delays the inevitable.

>>22261301
>2 more weeks, trust the plan!

>>22261286
Communism is for shitskins and jews

>>22261320

>>22260438
Why so triggered?

>>22260284
Do you think a drunk mob of rapists, murderers and robbers is an intellectually motivated organization that wishes for prosperity? Do you think a soapbox preacher that tells everyone to join the pillaging and thievery is a bringer of enlightenment? Do you think that a bloody tyrant is a sensitive theoretician with good will for the people? Marx's ideas are old and failed, the revolution is never going to happen. It's the delusional pseudo intelligencia that still reads marx, common communists don't know anything but the envy and bloodlust it inspires.

>>22261322
Then why aren't you a communist, Jose?

>>22261349
You're completely delusion if you think you're at the last stage of history. Capital's infinite growth is not sustainable and would have completely collapsed if the Government didn't keep the rigged game going. We've had massive increases in productivity but we still work the same amount of time and our time is continuously worth less when you factor in that most jobs in the 50's didn't require college degrees as prerequisites. You're as foolish as monarchists who would talk about the eternal divine right of kings.

>>22261399
You're forgetting that you're still a shitskin slave to your government and there's nothing that can change it because you're useless on their positions of elite. You don't have a choice to redistribute anything, your democratic right is only declining.

>>22261437
Government is a means of maintaining and mitigating class warfare. When there are no elites in or outside the state there's nothing to fear from the government.

>/leftypol/tranny raid
Sad

>>22260914
>>22261039
>>22260921
>>22260956
>>22260968
Gain some self-awareness, redditors.

>>22261362
Like this >>22261399 guy?

>>22261508
The tranny on top right is kind of okay-ish. Would.

>>22261508
What make people become like this, man? Is it a choice?

Marxism only triggers the most COINTELPRO'd, most MKULTRA'd of CIA niggers, most utterly Operation Gladio'd of westoid lapdogs. They're all worthless and unsalvageable.

>>22261629
>muh cia

>>22260385
I’m a marxist, but if you get a PhD for any reason other than to become a doctor, you are probably not very high IQ. That’s not a hard thing to do. You just have to want to be babysat well into adulthood.

>>22260365
The basis of Marx's economics is the equality of human labour, which is simply false.

>>22260294
Marx criticized freemasonry a lot in his writtings.
https://www.egaliteetreconciliation.fr/Marx-franc-maconnerie-et-societes-secretes-5597.html
In any case, everybody thinks Marx is a freemason conspirator until one actually reads Marx. Then most realize this guy is the real deal. But i understand. Reading Das Kapital all three volumes is way harder than watching conspiracies videos on the internet.

>>22260284
Marx used immanent critique to draw out a critique of capitalism from within its own inner logic, which makes it very strong. That also came from a critique of religion (ideology), in that people project their own virtues onto a non-human entity which instead creates them, so people become "alienated" from their virtues and pray to this "God" to get what actually belong to them back. In religion, God creates man rather than man having created God.

In capitalism, capital becomes God. Workers make the stuff, but the stuff becomes alienated from them in the form of their own creations which they buy back from store shelves, and which take on fetishistic qualities (like religious icons). A thing isn't just a thing, but an identity. Our human essence no longer belongs to us but the things we buy, which also makes workers dependent on their employers with the economists being like "priests" who use highly technical language that ordinary people can't understand much like priests in the Catholic Church long ago.

Marx predicted the consumer society.

It seems we're a long ways off from communism, but it's like a "woah" moment for people, because it relates to their experiences and has inspired many things. You can read the entire plot of The Matrix as being about the base and superstructure of capitalist society (in a hyperbolic way where people are literally turned into batteries by rogue A.I. who enslaves them in a dream world):
https://youtu.be/O5b0ZxUWNf0

The Wachowski have also said they were influenced by Marxism and one had a Marxist father. This is Marx:

>All these consequences are implied in the statement that the worker is related to the product of labor as to an alien object. For on this premise it is clear that the more the worker spends himself, the more powerful becomes the alien world of objects which he creates over and against himself, the poorer he himself – his inner world – becomes, the less belongs to him as his own. It is the same in religion. The more man puts into God, the less he retains in himself. The worker puts his life into the object; but now his life no longer belongs to him but to the object. Hence, the greater this activity, the more the worker lacks objects. Whatever the product of his labor is, he is not. Therefore, the greater this product, the less is he himself. The alienation of the worker in his product means not only that his labor becomes an object, an external existence, but that it exists outside him, independently, as something alien to him, and that it becomes a power on its own confronting him. It means that the life which he has conferred on the object confronts him as something hostile and alien.

>>22261700
>The basis of Marx's economics is the equality of human labour
Have you tried actually reading the book tho?

>>22261062
Das Kapital volume 3 is actually a compilation made by Engels on Marx's drafts. But it's Marx writtings.
Das Kapital is the most powerful of all three volumes, since it speaks about the tendency of the rate of profit to fall, fictitious credit (our quantitative easing), and Capitalism internal contradictions.

>>22261679
Yeah

>>22261075
Bakunin was wrong. No, you cannot abolish the State with a decree. Not, you cannot keep Capitalism social relations, ala Proudhon, and make them somehow "good". And not, the lumpenproletariat is definitively not revolutionary, but counter-revolutionary.

>>22261716
Can't tell if you're baiting as a tranny or you genuinely are one.

>>22261078
That was Lassalle.

>>22261011
WTF I love Marx now!

>>22261301
This. Since 2008, the rate of profit, combined with market saturation is too low for Capitalism to sustain itself naturally. So it ressorted to fictitious credit, aka quantitative easing aka money printing. Capitalism in 2023 is a zombie. It lives on artificial money.

>>22261716
Good post

>>22261710
>Then most realize this guy is the real deal
It's indeed a revelation when you dive into Marx and realize he's quite different to most marxists. That being said, communism, even if it were possible, would still suck, because communists suck. Look at these freaks >>22261508. We need to create a society that deny them any validation. Capitalism is failing us too though. Personally, I blame the jews.

>>22261749
Samefag.

>>22261740
>So it ressorted to fictitious credit, aka quantitative easing aka money printing. Capitalism in 2023 is a zombie. It lives on artificial money.
Why are you're using financial golem created by US and capitalism as interchangeable terms?

>>22261727
I'm not but I don't think it's a coincidence there are a lot of Marxist trannies really. It's like the logic is a bit more intuitive to them as they reconstruct their gender. See an example of "commodity fetishism" as the typical American truck ad:
https://youtu.be/JPBpZCTRM0I

That's very masculine and patriotic. But in capitalist society, and a highly developed consumer capitalist country, people are not just "who they are." They become that by buying representations of that back in the form of consumer objects, and now relate to each other through these objects. Human beings become objectified. Humans become alienated from their own creations but also become alienated from each other in the process. But it's actually the logic of the machine itself that is in control.

Or something like that.

Your masculinity is no longer your own. Or your sexuality. That's the source of the "woke" ads from companies. Even your own sexual orientation no longer belongs to you, but becomes split off from you and is something alienated from you. That creates a lot of dissonance in the reactionary mind and they will take it out by smashing the object. It looks like a glitch in the "normal" functioning of the Matrix which is disturbing their dream world but they haven't waken up yet. They're not ready.

>>22261716
>All these consequences are implied in the statement that the worker is related to the product of labor as to an alien object. For on this premise it is clear that the more the worker spends himself, the more powerful becomes the alien world of objects which he creates over and against himself, the poorer he himself – his inner world – becomes, the less belongs to him as his own. It is the same in religion. The more man puts into God, the less he retains in himself. The worker puts his life into the object; but now his life no longer belongs to him but to the object. Hence, the greater this activity, the more the worker lacks objects. Whatever the product of his labor is, he is not. Therefore, the greater this product, the less is he himself. The alienation of the worker in his product means not only that his labor becomes an object, an external existence, but that it exists outside him, independently, as something alien to him, and that it becomes a power on its own confronting him. It means that the life which he has conferred on the object confronts him as something hostile and alien.
Damn the man was good. Those who do not understand this, and do not agree, should seriously reconsider their mental ability.

>>22261757
It's Capitalism that created the financial golem created by US. Not the other way round. The american fed is Capitalism natural development.

>>22261721
You're a dumbass

>>22261719
>The labour, however, that forms the substance of value, is homogenous human labour, expenditure of one uniform labour power. The total labour power of society, which is embodied in the sum total of the values of all commodities produced by that society, counts here as one homogenous mass of human labour power, composed though it be of innumerable individual units. Each of these units is the same as any other, so far as it has the character of the average labour power of society, and takes effect as such...
- Capital, part one, chapter one: commodities
Like I said, his economic system relies on a substratum marketplace in which all labour types can be quantified. I say this is false and there is no such thing. All labour types are qualitatively different and incommensurable in a qualitative fashion. The work done by a scientist who invents cold fusion is not comparable to the work done by a grocery store janitor.

Isn't it funny that crapitalism has been collapsing for over a hundred years and still goes strong? Even commiecunts are adapting crapitalist shit to survive.

>>22261815
That does not postulate equality of human labour. Read, nigger, read.

>>22261823
Yes it does, he later goes on to explain that the value of commodities, being based on human labour implies that different labour types produce quantitatively more labour units than others, the weaver produces less labour making the linen than the tailor does making the coat, thus the coat is more valuable. Behind all of this is the labour unit as homogenous mass which I deny entirely. It is spinozan sophistry.
>Substance based philosophies have been a disaster for western civilization.

>>22260294
Even if he was it doesn't matter, Freemasonry is a nothingburger

>>22260981
she's right

>>22261831
...so, he does not postulate equality of human labour.

Amazing.

>>22261836
He postulates their quantifiably according to a standard unit, therefore setting them in equal footing. Once the equation is built, their equality is established. They are suddenly all quantifiable. Value is not a function of unimetric equality.

>>22261766
>they haven't waken up yet. They're not ready
You're not mistaken, but you're wrong if you think people will choose communism over fascism when they wake up. The problem with communism is that it doesn't really solve the alienation of capitalism. It only kicks the can a few meters ahead. The society of recreation that communism aims to create is just a fancier version of a society of consumption. Once communism has been established worldwide, there won't be anything else to do other than live passively, trying to "enjoy life". People may earn a bit more money, they may work a bit less, they may have more time for hobbies, but all those things become meaningless quickly when they are all there is to life. The human heart craves to believe in something bigger than them. People want to be a part of something so big that they are willing to die for it. People need enemies to exist, and communism is just to absolute. Fighting to establish it may be a great adventure, but once it has been settled, there's nothing else to believe. Just eternal meaningless recreation. Fascism is simply a much more attractive ideology, because it's an ideology of constant, never ending struggle.

>>22261874
It is a basic tenet of materialism that there is nothing more than matter. You are arguing with a soulless dimwit incapable of even entertaining the idea of the Spirit. I agree with you, but I guarantee they'll just laugh. Their worldview is simply too sterile.

MARX WAS RIGHT.

NEXT PERSON TO POST OR REPLY BELOW HAS EXPLOSIVE DIARRHOEA

>>22261720
>Das Kapital is the most powerful of all three volumes
It completely contradicts key claims asserted in the previous 2 volumes.

>it speaks about the tendency of the rate of profit to fall, fictitious credit (our quantitative easing), and Capitalism internal contradictions.
Oh, you were just joking.

>>22261944
Isn't vol 3 the one where he gets theory of value right, or at least not as wrong as previously? That alone makes it the best volume.

>>22261749
>>22261765
>>22261716
Seriously, stop same fagging. It's blatantly obvious.
>No it's not me *le screencap*

>>22261944
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA THIS BOZO BE HAVING EXPLOSIVE DIARRHOEA HAHAHAHAHA HE GOT DEM EXPLOSIVE DIARRHOEA OH HELL NAHHH SHAWTY DAT SHITS STINKY OH HELLLLLL NAWWWWWWW SKULL EMOJI SKULL EMOJI THIS MF STINKY FRFR LMFAOOOOO

>>22261954
...What? Is there a way to know people are samefagging now? This doesn't bode well for my posting style.

>>22261700
No it isn't, marx talks extensively about how labor isnt equal. It's why he specifically uses the term "socially necessary labor time", he used the social average

>>22261949
>Isn't vol 3 the one where he gets theory of value right
If you mean the volume where "he" completely abandons the LTV, then yes.

>>22261958
Hang on sec...just give me...there we go, could you repeat that?

The Capital is a rogue AI that traveled back in time to spread its globalizing and deterritorializing exponential decoding capabilities from the ports of Venice and Amsterdam from the sixteenth century onwards. Yall niggas need to read Nick Land and get up to date with the times fast instead of relying on 19th century midwit economics because this is fucking embarrassing to see you discussing Marx of all people, it's 2023 for God's sake. Cool people read Bataille and Laruelle not Engels or fucking Gramsci lmao

>>22261974
I know you're baiting, but there's something so grating about Land, and his fans are even worse.
>Whoaaa what if capitalism is like a Lovecraftian cyberpunk elden God?
I bet a lot of the people who got into him will cringe at themselves in ten years when they remember their Land phase. He does make some interesting points, specially regarding rejecting the enlightenment, but his style is so cringe, man.

>>22261983
>>Whoaaa what if capitalism is like a Lovecraftian...God?
Sure, if you want the simplification to be the actual description. How else would you describe a completely uncontrollable entity that can only be grasped piecemeal by the people that study the thing in question, let alone the average normalfag that rarely, if ever, interacts with it beyond a surface level.

I, for one, think it's an appropriate simplification for normalniggers.

>>22261969
Right but he theorizes a substratum of labour units in which labour is quantified, thereby equalizing them. If they weren't quantifiable you could not compare them, by creating the labour unit system he has equalized all labour as quantifiable. He's thinking in terms in quantity instead of quality, and quantifiable statements can always be rendered equal.

>>22261853
>therefore setting them in equal footing
That does not postulate equality of human labour, tho.

>Once the equation is built, their equality is established.
"Their" being whom?

>Value is not a function of unimetric equality.
Somewhere I hear a Mises revolving.

Now go on, explain how this postulates equality of human labour

>>22262009
>and quantifiable statements can always be rendered equal
Yeah - between identical quantities. Not between individual human laborers.

>>22262021
It does in the sense that the two arguments can be rendered equal. By their I meant the arguments of the equation, the human labor as personified by the commodities. By creating the labour unit Marx stipulates that all labor functions as the producer of a quantifiable value. Thus all labor is equal in the sense that it produces labor. This is false, not all work produces something of value, therefore not all labor produces value.

>>22262022
Again, you are considering labor quantifiably, not qualitatively. My contention is that labor cannot be reduced to a quantity.

>>22262040
>By their I meant the arguments of the equation
So not humans, so it is not equality of human labour.

>his is false, not all work produces something of value, therefore not all labor produces value.
He >>22261969 already pointed out the socially necessary labor time element, so this argument is false. Marx does not claim that infinitely digging and immediately covering ditches in a middle of nowhere inherently creates value - human effort that does not serve any social interests whatsoever is simply not labor.

The only angle you still have is that any quantification of labor and value is fundamentally impossible, which unfortunately would imply that so is pricing, and every economist since Smith (if not since the first currencies, or since the first exchange of goods) has been inherently wrong.

>>22262045
>My contention is that labor cannot be reduced to a quantity.
Labor is just a commodity though. Are you implying that any commodities cannot be reduced to quantities, or that labor is not a commodity?

As a Marxism scholar I was wondering how can I improve on Marx's theory of value. I came to the conclusion, that there is a fundamental elementary particle that is missing from standard model, which I call Laborium. Laborium is something every human posses to some extent and it's what being expended when doing any kind of work that produces something useful. Every item that people create is being infused with the Laborium in the process of it's creation. Therefore there is an objective value to any product of labor. I don't know where does Laborium come from and how does it end up in people yet, one of my working theories is that every human is born with a finite amount of it. Giving birth is a labor in on itself, meaning every human is a result of labor and therefore must be full of Laborium.

>>22260521
So CCP was better at capitalism than other countries? That is the thing.

>>22262085
>Pricing Function Collapse
>Planck Value
>Constant velocity of crisis
>The law of conservation of liquidity
>The Strong Marketing Force
>The General Relativity of Transaction-Price
>Michelson–Mises–Morley Government Interferometer

>>22262095
My comrade, I think you are onto something here.

>>22262092
I do love the part where is turns out that state-business fusion through political party totalitarianism with ambitions of global expansion was secretly the final and most efficient form of capitalism all along.

It's like they are reinventing Lenin by accident.

>>22260340
>Statist
https://youtu.be/rRXvQuE9xO4

>>22260330
>not unlike heaven
This. Pining for “the revolution” is the same shit as waiting for the messiah. Is it any wonder that a Jew came up with this shit?

>>22262064
Pricing is not impossible, though I do assert the quantification of labor is. Let us consider a simple work function W=Fs where F is the force applies and s is the distance traveled. According to this equation the total Force used determines the amount of work created as the total distance traveled is variable according to the object. The conclusion we reach is that, if we consider a to be in a static ratio to F, Force determines the amount of work done. As a result the Force determines the work
In the same vein, we may assert that the power to determine pricing determines the actual value. If I were a monopoly, say, Standard Oil, then I could directly control the value of my commodity since, being a monopoly, I have absolute power over it. If I were not a monopoly then my power to determine the price would be limited by the powers of other economic subjects. Thus the price I can demand is limited by how much power over the commodity I have. Labour has nothing to do with it. Power is Absolute.

>>22260284
You’re a retard.

>>22260365
Yes. Didn't read past the question but yes, of course yes. Are you saying you're not? That's pathetic

He's got a good beard.

>>22261983
It's actually a very insightful metaphor and your pop-mockery of Land's worldview is no indictment of his being right about literally everything.

What Marx did that was so valuable to intellectuals was give them a method centered around critique. He made it no longer necessary to offer genuine contributions but rather made it the norm to offer critiques of the status quo, and we see now that this is the primary mode of “research” within the humanities and social sciences faculties across the Western world.

>>22262237
>He >>22261969 already pointed out the socially necessary labor time element, so this argument is false. Marx does not claim that infinitely digging and immediately covering ditches in a middle of nowhere inherently creates value - human effort that does not serve any social interests whatsoever is simply not labor.

>>22262410
And yet he still refers to it as the social perspective of the value of labor instead of the owners willful manipulation of this perspective to increase profits. If there is no standard the seller decides the price. What is it I am not getting? Why do feel the need to insinuate you are repeating yourself?

>>22262397
Marx is just following the materialist dialectic to its ultimate conclusions, which is a hegelian endeavour in essence, and Hegel in turn reacted mainly to Kant. So the thing you accuse Marx of is essentially the making of Kant and german idealism as a whole, and Marx merely followed along.

Marx was a (literal, avowed) Satanist.

>>22260353
Are you a programmer? If you're not, maybe you shouldn't talk much about this famous hacker "AI".

>>22262545
top tier schizo theory honestly

>>22262425
>What is it I am not getting?
That Marx differentiates between sale value, use value and price? Jesus fuck R E A D T H E B O O K.

>>22260284
Saying a philosopher is wrong about "literally everything" is completely dishonest.

>>22262154
Marx was a statist through and through, this is why he and Bakunin had a FAMOUS disagreement.
>>22261724
Try reading him sometime to clear this all up.

>>22260721
This passes for an argument in the lavatories you hang out in?

>>22263151
>reading russian misanthropes making up theories
couldn't be me.

there's no difference between their theories and the parody that Dostoevsky made through Shigalyev's character and manifesto.

>>22263374
You can't possibly be responding to my post with this non sequitur

>>22263525
Now that i have your attention, could you help a curious fellow giving a nice bibliography and overview/guide steps on understanding socialism and such theories, along with the main authors?
I'm more of the "slow revolution" menshevik persuasion.

Interested in it all nonetheless.

>>22260330
Many of the recent "eco-movement" groups are largely based on this vagueness. They don't even make their stances clear on traditional topics like nuclear power because it would instantly narrow down the number of people they can recruit.

>>22263674
it's always riding vagueness.
That also serves as a defense mechanism; they can, since they don't have any specifics, avoid a pointy question by saying that what is being criticized isn't a part of the movement.
I wonder what most ecos think of nuclear.
Probably brainwashed into hating it by the oil lobbyists who fucked it up some decades back.

It's ok becausr I like seeing marxoids whose heads are perpetually stuck in the 19th century and think material conditions have not changed get brainfucked by post-modernists.

>>22261958
Like this. They are always on the verge of a mental breakdown whenever they get close to realizing how meaningless their lives have been and it's the most hilarious thing ever. You literally cannot make this shit up.