/lit/ - Literature

>>22247215
Dude wanted a sex change because he couldn't get laid. Was so creepy his own brother fired him from job he got Ted. Was an incel before it was cool.

>>22247215
>The industrial society and his future
Sorry, I wanted to wirte "its". Derp writing.

Interesting, but if you really look into it can be all resumed to: society has fallen, return to monkey!
hot dude btw, rest in peace.

>>22247215
Unless you find the (((uncle Ted's hidden shack))) b4 feds its rudy poo. Thus it goes without saying it is the one.

I have dreams of specifically 20th Century psychopaths I read about on Wikipedia. I dream of going about my day in the park or in the library until they suddenly show up and I fight against them. In the beginning I would cry for help but no one was around later on I started winning the fights. I remember winning a fight against a psychopath in the library.

>>22247273

>>22247215
Industrial society has been a tremendous boon for humankind. Stating otherwise ignores the vast history of human existence where life was meaner, shorter, and with less leisure time and a wealth of things to occupy that time with.

>>22247215
Kinda meh, considering some quotes from it. Dude was clearly nuts.

>>22247307
Life was better in the past. Marx himself among others has made a reference in his book about how some county in England built some of the strongest men for lacking medicine and sewing just to show how widespread this knowledge was. Another French author from the 18th Century interestingly enough explains that if someone wants to meet the most courageous men he should visit a town without medicine and without doctors. "They are the most courageous men and they are indifferent to death." If industrial society has increased the average lifespan, made life more comfortable, the people have become weaker, softer and more feminine.

>>22247273
Ever fight Ed Kemper? You'd probably have to use the environment to beat him since he's so big

>>22247333
>If industrial society has increased the average lifespan, made life more comfortable, the people have become weaker, softer and more feminine.
I don't see a problem with that. I don't want to be a though as nails Afghan tribesman who can't read or even count to 10 but knows how to survive the winter by herding goats and helping his cousins smuggle opium. Is he a hard man? Undoubtedly. Would anyone desire his life? Unlikely.

>>22247343
No but I'd probably give him a solid push into the chest and make him fly, then throw a rock or him or finish with a knockout if he fell to the ground.

>>22247344
You don't get it. Yeah an Afghan tribesmen might have a hard life but he lives completely free in exchange for that. Do you think the Lenni-Lenapes refused to accept the conquest of the English men and Americans because they preferred tribal lifestyle or because they had political reasons to do so? A tribe doesn't live in isolation because they don't know better, they do so because they have the strength to thrive on themselves independently. This goes without saying that there's tribes that even afford making their own cars without the aid of any larger society wich is pretty much the most expensive item an individual can consoom.

>>22247378
>completely free
For what? Do you want to know what freedom is?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8wgPbeH38o
Can he put a confederate flag in his car and yell nigger when he feels like it while living in the greatest nation on Earth? Yeah, I figured.

>>22247394
Idiotic. Why should I care if I'm allowed to yell things or what flags I wear when no one hears or sees them anyways besides my family lol.

>>22247244
not really true of his later work. i recommend The Truth About Primitive Life: A Critique of Anarchoprimitivism

>>22247404
Exactly, he isn't free to be racist, because there is just his tribe there. And you say that he is free, he is literally less free than the average retard who isn't able to leave 4chan.

>>22247215
genuinely devastated by his passing. i had wanted to write him for years but was discouraged by people saying that i'd end up on a list if i tried to communicate with him. he died while i was institutionalized and i didn't learn of his death until last night. goodbye uncle Ted, i'll think of you often

>>22247273
OK Tyler Durden

>>22247433
A tribal, primitive person is free from the domination of state, capitalism, and industrial society. The post-industrial man is forced into dependence on those forces and subjected to a miserable existence of consumerism and post-industrial work lifestyle. A primitive person is subjected to the tribe/community and the toil of work that is definitely arduous but is also life-affirming.

>>22247215
He’s probably right but as an egoist I don’t care enough to try and start an anti tech revolution. If there was an anti tech revolution and I was conscripted I would do whatever job they gave me. Of course, if I were conscripted to fight against an anti tech revolution I’d also do that, but without feeling all righteous

Humanity was fucked on a mass scale as soon as the first agricultural revolution happened 20 thousand years ago, now the only true way to be free in industrialised society is to not desire anything, be homeless and scrounge food from bins and be like a modern day diogenes.

>>22247483
10 thousand years ago* fuck sake.

>>22247483
You can also farm individually. Buy some cheap property in the wild and make a plantation. You will be working a lot but in the spare leisure hours you will live like a true aristocrat like in the days of old.

>>22247496
What is wrong with not eating goyslop? And just living your life as you see fit?

>>22247416
The System’s Neatest Trick is also good to read.

>>22247433
Ted talks about freedom from technique (the totality of methods rationally arrived at and having absolute efficiency for a given stage of development in every field of human activity.) as Jacques Ellul described it.

>>22247504
Being homeless and taking gibs from others to feel "free" because you can spend 12 hours lying in your dirt instead of working for another is low spirited and weak. Farming crops and feeding animals so you can live on your own without relying on anyone is high-spirited and energetic.

>>22247513
Yes, but he is a retard, why would you get triggered over other people living and doing fine? He is kinda le prophet of return to monke, and also a gigachud.

>>22247394
>For what? Do you want to know what freedom is?
Free from spending time on surrogate activities and abstracts not related to human survival and procreation.

>>22247496
It's going to be homelessness or that for me in the the future, I'm not against honest work, but working in a factory or warehouse 12 hours a day until i am old an decrepit?, fuck that been there it's unnatural just rebranded slavery.
https://youtu.be/RFZZEpNKjg0

>>22247527
Just work for a few months until you saved up like 10-20k and buy a cheap property somewhere in the mountains. It's called pulling a Robinson Crusoe and it's not that hard. After like a year of hard work you will already have a fine settlement.

>>22247515
>Being homeless and taking gibs from others to feel "free" because you can spend 12 hours lying in your dirt instead of working for another is low spirited and weak
I don't know, animals do the same, why is humanity so high and mighty that they cannot do the same thing?, i do agree self sufficent farming is better but being a bum is better than being a wage slave.

>>22247541
Of course it's better than being a wage slave but it's still low and pathetic. It doesn't take energy to obey others. It doesn't take energy to be homeless. It takes energy to lead a business, to govern a territory, to turn a piece of wilderness into a farm, to convert savages.

>>22247513
that's a favorite, definitely

>>22247215
INDUSTRIAL SOCIETY an ITS FUTURE Introduction
1 di Industrial Revolution an its consequences ave bin a disasta fi di human race dem ave greatly increase di life-expectancy of dem deh of wi who live inna "advanced" countries but dem ave destabilized society ave mek life unfulfilling ave subjected human beings tuh indignities ave lead tuh widespread psychological suffering (in di Third World tuh physical suffering as well) an ave inflicted severe damage pan di natural world di continue development of technology wi worsen di situation It wi certainly subject human beings tuh greata indignities an inflict greata damage pan di natural world it wi probably lead tuh greata social disruption an psychological suffering an it may lead tuh increase physical suffering even inna "advanced"countries
2 di industrial-technological system may survive or it may break dung eff it survives it MAY eventually achieve a low level of physical an psychological suffering but ongle afta passing through a lang an very painful period of adjustment an ongle at di cost of permanently reducing human beings an many oddah living organisms tuh engineered products an mere cogs inna di social machine Furthermore eff di system survives di consequences ago bi inevitable: There no way of reforming or modifying di system suh as tuh prevent it from depriving people of dignity an autonomy.
3 Eff di system breaks dung di consequences wi still be very painful But di bigga di system grows di more disastrous di results of its breakdown ago bi suh eff it tuh break dung it had best break dung soona radda dan lata
4 wi therefore advocate a revolution gainst di industrial system dis revolution may or may nuh mek use of violence; it may be sudden or it may be a relatively gradual process spanning a few decades wi cannae predict any of dat But wi duh outline inna very general way di measures dat dem deh who hate di industrial system should tek inna orda tuh prepare di way fi a revolution gainst dat form of society dis a nuh fi be a POLITICAL revolution Its object ago bi tuh overthrow nuh governments but di economic an technological basis of di present society
5 inna dis article wi gi attention tuh ongle sum of di negative developments dat ave grow outta di industrial-technological system oddah such developments wi mention ongle briefly or ignore altogetha dis nuh mean dat wi regard dem yah oddah developments as unimportant fi practical reasons wi haffi confine fi wi discussion tuh areas dat ave receive insufficient public attention or inna which wi ave sup'm new tuh sey fi example since there well-developed environmental an wilderness movements wi ave written very likkle bout environmental degradation or di destruction of wild nature even though wi consida dem yah fi be highly important

>>22247477
He isn't freer, because while he is not that dependent on civilization, he wouldn't be able to handle having those choices. Some of those tribes are so fucked up that they literally think about blowing themselves up, because they can't handle looking at things. The nearer you live to nature, the more you will look like an animal, there is nothing good in it. Just look at how chimpanzees behave and it should be somewhat obvious.
>>22247513
Freedom from the technique would mean being a slave of instincts and circumstances. You wouldn't depend that much on other people, but you would depend on nature (who is a fucking bitch btw). It doesn't sound like a decent idea.

>>22247215
he was right about many things, killing these random people just to make a point wasn't really nice however.

>>22248412
he later acknowledged that his bombings didn't really make sense and were more motivated by his emotions than his ideology. shame to think such a brilliant man would senselessly maim and kill human beings just to satisfy his anger, but that's what he did

>>22247244
He doesn't say to return to monke.

>>22248375
Idk if Ted makes reference to idealizing Afghan tribes but probably not. I think Ted idealized a world that didn't actually exist. A utopia. And tried to argue if it was possible. I don't think it's possible, but his arguments on techno reliance is important to keep in mind as we accelerate into techno fascism.

>>22247519
I believe he assumed they weren't happy or fine rather than being edgelord one dimensional superhero villain that wanted to eliminate happiness or whatever.

>>22248511
I read a couple of quotes that people were posting here. Things such as vaccines not being cool because they would allow "unfit" people to "pass the fitness test of our environment", which would lead to frail people who are more frail and dependent on our "devices".
There is some truth to it, and that being somewhat rustic can bring some robustness, but I don't think that our dependency on those things is bad at all, we can do amazing stuff thanks to it. I would only argue that the thing that can end up going out of control is our capacity to mess with the environment. This is what somewhat scares me of us ending up like Interstellar, having to leave the planet to not go extinct, because we went too crazy with "improving the technique" side of things. I don't think we would end up being Earth completely unlivable for everything, but I don't have a hard time imagining it being unlivable for most us and most animals.

>>22247215
discord
gg
/M9PznTVxU

>>22248531
Glow harder

>>22247394

> greatest nation
> freedom is when big twuck
> ooooo look at me, I can say naughty words

kill yourself

>>22248548
>malding
I bet your country isn't as free as the US of A.

>>22248564

i'm american retard

>>22247522
"surrogate activities" aka hobbies. most people enjoy them and would much rather pursue them than threshing wheat in a field all day. ted was an aberration, he was unfit to prescribe anything to normal well adjusted folk because his interface with life was alien to what they experience and if you align with him you also have a screw loose and should be monitored by intelligence agencies. and furthermore you or anybody else would not give a single fuck about what this basket case believed if he didn't blow off innocent people's hands

>>22248576
So why aren't you free?

>>22248585

fwiw, Ted mentions this numerous times in his manifesto. He's aware of it too.

And I don't think you get what he meant by 'surrogate activities'. The point about them is that they are like fast food. Sure, we enjoy them and would rather pursue them, but they are ultimately meaningless beyond said enjoyment. You could argue that enjoyment is the end all be all and leave it there, but the point he makes is that it's not the end all be all and that people, even if unconsciously, are aware that it is meaningless and it slowly fills themselves with disgust. Sure, I'm not going to argue that threshing wheat is fun or enjoyable, but it has purpose, meaning. If you don't thresh the wheat, there's no food and people starve. He's not making the point that it's fun, he's making the point that since most hobbies today lack that sense of purpose and are all around too easily attained, it's the cause for alot of neurosis and mental issues people have today. Fast food is food and has calories, but something feels hollow about it, empty.

>>22248599

Because I'm stuck with people like you

>>22248605
That isn't the problem with food "being hollow". The actual thing is probably that processed food bypasses a certain metabolic stage digestion that would signal our brain that "we are fine and we can stop eating, because we are satisfied", that would happen if we ate "natural food". It is just that we shouldn't rely too much on those things. They won't do you good compared to the real things in the long run.

>>22248611
What is wrong with me? We are living in the best place in the world. It can't possibly get any better than that.

>>22248618

Fair enough, you know more about my analogy than I do. Not sure if you're the anon I was originally responding too, but if you look at what is written here, you get the point of surrogate activities. The problem is modern day society relies on them too much to sustain people.

>>22248605
>You could argue that enjoyment is the end all be all and leave it there
i would, not so reductively obviously. how is a life spent slaving to hoard food just so you can sustain yourself to do it again the next day more meaningful than a life spent doing shit you actually enjoy. that's not a pursuit, it's just subsistence

>>22248624
Yes, but the thing is that you can't extrapolate that to everything. It is just a thing that happens to be the case with food and maybe certain things about our environment, but there are a lot of conveniences from living near those techniques. And they are literally the reason why I'm sure that "natural food" is better, I wouldn't be able to know, this is the thing too, you need those things to produce better knowledge.

>>22248629

It's been a bit since I've read the work, but I think there is a distinction to made between being meaningful and *feeling meaningful*.

I agree, it's pretty slavish to do the same shit day in day out. However, the urgency of survival acts in accordance with our evolutionary conditioning and, despite it being fucking shit to deal with, its shit we know needs to get done and thus we are forced to deal with it for better or worse.

The shit we like doing, well, that's where the 'surrogate' in surrogate activity comes in. It quite literally is meant to mimic that sense of survival urgency but no matter how much we try to thing our way out of it, to perform mental gymnastics, we just won't be able to truly give it meaning. I agree, it's not pursuit, it's subsistence. The point is though that there's nothing we can do to actually recreate that meaning nature hardcoded inside of us. I would argue the pursuits we do today we think of as subsistence, things we need to do to make ourselves thrive/alive. However, they won't necessarily fulfill us.

If that sounds pretty bleak, well, it is. I don't fully agree with Ted, since there are a ton of activities today that I think we can do for meaning, but they are all in opposition to the trends of modern culture and focus on pursuit of art or some high fallutin notion of truth. Professional sports? Surrogate activity. I think this stuff can be viewed best as a critique of consoomer culture.

>>22248529
Yeah I agree. I think he was so maxi on his position that most people can't separate out the bits that make coherent sense.

AI, hyper real fake media, eugenics, all accelerate a dependence on an over leveraged system that defines our reality, and if it were to fail or succeed in any sort of extreme, millions would die. Case in point has been covid and the response to it, given how many people died, how it was handled, the propaganda for or against vaccines, the vaccines themselves, the restrictions, the economic response, etc. Whether you're left or right wing in the American sense, no one got what they wanted and everyone suffered.

>>22248375
I disagree. A large reduction in technique does not mean a complete abandonment of rationality but instead following rational produced by yourself. Obviously, some form of technique is always going to exist but the level at which technique is prevalent in our society is profoundly unnatural and reduces freedom far too much.
I would also argue dependence on nature puts more opportunities in your hands as you alone (or a small group including you) are responsible for your own wellbeing. True, things such as weather are still out of control but the alternative is worse. When you are reliant on technological society, many choices are made for you and you have only an insignificant say in how they are made if you have a say at all. Just this week, the Wall St. Journal did a piece on telephone lines coated in lead that were contaminating the surrounding area. This greatly effected the nearby residents health and they had are unable to remove the telephone lines themselves. Nature can be a bitch but humans can be assholes.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/lead-cables-investigation-att-methodology-1703dbb0

>>22247515
>agricoomers really believe this

i'm a big fan

>>22247215
I want to find his "Technological slavery" in .epub format, but there is only pdf..

>>22248426
Where did he acknowledge this? In some of his later writings he doesn’t even acknowledge that he was the bomber at all.

>>22249441
Why ? Pdf is always better. Unless you read on an ereader like a retard.

>>22248798
>>22248896
You are missing what surveillance can do for us if used to "maximize freedom". Consider this, you find a way to make yourself accountable for your goals, and there is an AI aiding you in it. This is literally like having the education of a king in the past, that would have a tutor at his disposal practically anytime.
This is the thing, if things don't get out of control, there is so much potential in things that can be done with what we currently have at our disposal.

>>22250104
But the scary part is that there is a big IF, because if shit hits the fan, we are probably fucked, as in no human beings or most people ending up dead and everything turning into some mad max crap.

>>22247215
He was quite handsome ngl

>>22247226
Cool, which part of the book do you disagree with and why?

>>22247273
The twist is that you're the pyscohpath

>>22247215
Should have wrote something original rather than summarizing Elul. Waste of good bombs.

>>22250225
As in somehow there is an ethology "exploit" that you could potentially use and insert some "vulnerability" on everyone that ends up using this. Suddenly someone who does that would have a ridiculous amount of power.

>>22250245
This is true, most people go out of their way to avoid fights, if you willingly go out and look for them you are probably suffering from some disorder of some kind, real fights are not like in movies, it's possible to kill someone with one punch in the right place or if they're knocked onto the floor and bang the back of their heads. In martial arts the first thing they teach you is that you you should escape from a potential conflict first if possible and only fight if necessary.

>>22250248
dude thinks he's reading his garbage mangas.
>goblin rape time travel has never been done before! my expectations are subverted that means it's good!
grow up

>>22250104
Let’s say there are two ordinary people playing chess and they can each consult a chess ai for help. They each want to win and as a result, lean on their chess ai more and more until it is not then who is playing the game but the ai. So it goes for technological society.
Things are already out of control. And if we try to remove a piece of the technological system, then the rest of the system will collapse. So while there are options on what parts to reduce or remove, they each have the same result: the collapse of the technological system.

>>22250346
You are missing the point, this is like saying that calculators ruined math learning, when they were what got us to the moon in the first place. This is what I don't understand how people engage in his stuff, the risk of technology lies somewhere else. This kind of "degenerative" stuff can probably be dealt with with technology in the first place. There are ways to exercise muscles without gravity and so on.

>>22250360
The risk lies of its destructive potential or something having too much control over it that it ends up having too much power.
Consider Microsoft, they are extremely powerful. Most computers run windows nowadays, does that mean it is something bad? I really like my windows machine despite using linux on desktop for almost 15 years.

>>22250307
What?

>>22250248
I think where Kaczynski differentiates himself from Ellul is how revolutionary movements are co-opted by groups that serve in the interest of the technological system. And while his writing is more simple when our next to Ellul, it enabled his writing to serve as a good starting point. It also allows the arguments to reach further than the academic sphere without diluting things.

>>22250360
The system makes our lives innumerably easier but in doing so deprives us control over our own fate.

>>22250389
>control over your fate
It is literally the opposite of it. Nature is a fucking bitch, I don't know what the fuck is wrong with retards romanticizing this shit. Nature looks amazing, so living near it is really cool. It just threw covid at us, aids, ebola, measles, chickenpox, smallpox, black plague and so on. We would be fucked without it. People would need to have 10-15 children and something like 7 would make to adult age. Ask your grandmother how common it was to have a sibling who was deaf duel to scarlet fever.
>move to the woods
>some psychopath/drug addict shows up
>has a gun
>shoots you
>...
>nothing happens

does isaif agree with the tenets of notable religions
do tenets of notable religions agree with the technological society

>>22250476
Unfortunately, we have gone in a circle here.
Regarding romanization, Ted does not have a romantic notion of nature. He lived the life for quite some time. He has also written that people should dampen their expectations of a world without industrial technology. (See, The Truth About Primitive Life: A Critique of Anarchoprimitivism.) I would however argue you are on the other side of things by making nature out as some terrible thing. All the diseases you mentioned were greatly devastating mainly due to a poor epidemiological understanding.
Up until 1876, the miasma theory was widely accepted. This was the same theory that was widely accepted during the Black Death. When germ theory became standard among the scientific community, responses to epidemics were much more effective. Just because we forget how to build nuclear reactors, doesn’t mean we forget about proper hygiene or the importance of boiling water taken from a lake.
You are correct when mentioning the higher infant mortality in non-industrialized groups. I would argue that this is an acceptable price to pay so that those that survive have a better quality of life. It is common today for us to take care of infants with debilitating conditions but we never stop to ask if it is ethical to do such. That person would grow up carrying their disability and would become conscious of their suffering. Those with disabilities are 4 times more likely to suffer from some sort of mental illness. These past two sentences are under the assumption that every infant that does does so due to a disability and I should acknowledge that this is not always the case. We must also look at all the negative impacts industrial society is having on children today. Children can be exposed to hazardous chemicals/materials that negatively impact their physical/mental development, there is an increased rates of child obesity, and more phycological stress is put on children everyday.

>>22250692
That is the thing, you are just overreacting. Life expectancy increased, there is no reason to commit to anything like that, just because you feel like people should play life on hard mode, this is fucking ridiculous. We should take every single shortcut available, especially if it doesn't necessarily mean a heavy commitment, that is the thing too, there is absolutely no reason to not get into any of those things, when not depending on them would mean basically stop using those stuff.

>>22247273
based evil destroyer

>>22250601
Kaczynski was an atheist (although for fun he made up some dirties of his own) so I would say it doesn’t agree with the ethics in the Bible (particularly New Testament). And this is where I disagree with him.

>>22250717
I would also argue industrial society is not compatible with Christianity.