/lit/ - Literature

>>22196542
The myth theory isn't taken seriously because the excising evidence shows that Jesus likely existed.

>>22196667
there is literally no evidence besides the bible and insertions by christians into tacitus and josephus.

>>22196686
>insertions by christians into tacitus and josephus
What's your evidence that the Tacitus passage is an interpolation? Or the mention of Jesus' brother James by Josephus?

>>22196696
Jesus is a myth, so it must have been inserted. either that or Tacitus and Josephus heard about the myth and thought that it was real.

>>22196697
Circular reasoning like this is why Jesus Mythicism is not taken seriously by academia.

>>22196697
>A=B so B=A
holy shit flawless logic by npc over here

>>22196697
How does it feel knowing there’s more historical and scientific evidence to the Bible’s claims than what you’re saying. Did you know there were also a number of earthquakes in the Dead Sea region during the year of Jesus’ crucifixion

>>22196751
>Did you know there were also a number of earthquakes in the Dead Sea region during the year of Jesus’ crucifixion
made up or inserted by christians. most history was fabricated in 1000 ad.

>>22196778
Being as braindead and retarded as you must be excruciating

>>22196751
Why would that substantiate the other claims made by the text? Next your going to tell me they were correct about identifying that there was a Roman presence in Judaea too!

>>22196696
Which passage are we talking about? In both. Are we talking about the part in Josephus where he recites the Nicene Creed some ~300 years before it was invented? Because it was invented 300 years after Tacitus died. In Tacitus, are we talking about him saying that there's a Jewish messianic cult running around claiming that the messiah has come? That's probably authentic, yeah.

>>22196830
you are the one saying that the sun didnt rise for three days and no one except three jews thought about writing this down, not me.

>>22196839
>Are we talking about the part in Josephus where he recites the Nicene Creed some ~300 years before it was invented?
I have no idea what you're referencing, but no. I'm referring to Antiquities book 20, in which it is written:
>Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrim of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others, [or, some of his companions]; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned
This James is corroborated in Paul's letters, Paul having met him.

>In Tacitus, are we talking about him saying that there's a Jewish messianic cult running around claiming that the messiah has come?
He actually mentions Christ by name and claim he was executed by Pilate in the reign of Tiberius.
>Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judæa, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular.

>>22196542
this dude went full chud mode didnt he lol
he has articles on counter currents

>>22196542
>jesus didn't exist because his name was actually caesarion and i'm being obtuse

you need to die and go to hell

>>22196697
>Jesus is a myth

so you think the earth is a sphere hurtling through space but magically never colliding with anything but the idea that the romans nailed a celtic druid to a tree 2000 years ago breaks your suspension of disbelief?

>>22196542
Why is it so hard for people to believe there was a man named Yeshua who whose Mom had an affair with a Roman soldier, used his wits to trick others, and then died on a cross while his cult members/followers lied?

>>22197329
Straight from the Talmud

>>22197352
>nooooo you have to post true, wholesome things that confirm Christ and His salvation of man
Just let me be stupid and bound for hell in peace ok chud?

>>22197327
>the earth is a sphere hurtling through space but magically never colliding with anything
only you dinocaust deniers think that

>>22196887
"Christ" isn't his name, in spite of the expletive "Jesus H. Christ", but rather is actually a title. Tacitus is saying that there were Jewish messianic claimants in the area at the time and that some of the followers of these claimants held that their messiah had been killed by Pilate. "Messiah", from the Hebrew "מָשִׁיחַ", means "anointed one" (literally, olive oil is physically placed upon a messiah). This was translated into Greek as "Χρῑστός". This word is directly cognate with the English "grime", which originally had a meaning of "anointment" in Asatru that was taken as being wicked in Christianity. The term in Greek was used to refer to all sorts of figures and in various non-Christian religious contexts.

So, I'm not sure what you're trying to get at, because the anon that you're responding to did actually agree that Tacitus was in fact talking about the various Jewish messianic sects at the time (which we can't really say are "Christians" because they include weirdos like Sethians and what not).

>>22197327
But the Earth hits stuff all the time, it just burns up in the atmosphere, or if it doesn't it crashes into the planet, sometimes to disastrous effect, and many other Je- sorry, Celts, were nailed to trees 2000 years ago and not all of them are the Jewis- sorry, Celtic messiah.

>>22197352
The Talmud is quoting Celsus.

>>22197401
The Talmud isn't quoting Celsius, Celsus referred to the sayings of Jews in his time which later were compiled in the Talmud

>>22197391
>and that some of the followers of these claimants held that their messiah had been killed by Pilate
oh well, then he definitely couldn't be talking about Christians....

>>22197329
cleopatra was not "having an affair," she loved jesus's father you ingrate

>>22197391
>"Christ" isn't his name, in spite of the expletive "Jesus H. Christ", but rather is actually a title.
Obviously I'm aware his name in his lifetime was not Christ, but that is how he is commonly referred. "Christus" is a proper noun in Latin; Tacitus was using a name.
>and that some of the followers of these claimants held that their messiah had been killed by Pilate.
NO, that's not what he is saying. He is not saying that *Christians* claimed that Christ was killed by Pilate. *Tacitus himself* is reporting that Christ was killed by Pilate.
>which we can't really say are "Christians"
Even though Tacitus mentions that they were called that?

>>22197439
this one in particular of those dumb conspiracies designed to deprogram curious minds

>>22197436
no one said that he isn't except the people in this thread except the larpers who do not believe that messianic Jews and weird gnostics are christians because they're not russian orthodox

>>22197444
>Obviously I'm aware his name in his lifetime was not Christ, but that is how he is commonly referred. "Christus" is a proper noun in Latin; Tacitus was using a name.
So, which is it? Do you think that it's a title, or a name?

>NO, that's not what he is saying.
He literally says that Christians believe this and is reporting on what they say. Are you suggesting that Tacitus is lying and in fact saw the events in question with his own eyes? Which version of events is he reporting?

>Even though Tacitus mentions that they were called that?
Do you believe that Origen was a Christian? What about the guy who wrote the Gospel of Eve? Which version of Christianity are you suggesting that Tacitus was secretly practicing?

>>22197447
>defending the character of christ's mother is a "dumb conspiracy"

you need to go to hell too

>>22197469
Julius Caesar and Cleopatra have nothing to do with Jesus

>>22197475
Noooo you have to bow down to my epic name dropping of historical figures and buy into my word salad of the week.

>>22197391
Why do you seem to believe Sethians existed but not early Christians?

>>22197475
lying is a sin human filth

>>22197460
>So, which is it? Do you think that it's a title, or a name? It was a title that overtime became used as a name. All I'm saying is that Tacitus was using it as a name.
>He literally says that Christians believe this and is reporting on what they say.
Okay, then tell me:
>Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judæa, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular.
Where in this text do you see this? Where is Tacitus saying that Christians said this?
>Which version of Christianity are you suggesting that Tacitus was secretly practicing?
When did I ever suggest Tacitus was a Christian? Are you schizophrenic?

>>22197448
but there are anon in this thread claiming that Tacitus is not referring to Christians (as we would commonly understand the term) despite his referring to a group of people that make the exact claims that Christians make.
I'm sure some of them were gnostics or had strange little pet theories, but it is also pretty likely that the majority of them were Pauline-Petrine Christians.

>>22197478
>>22197484
You could simply deny Jesus like a normal atheist or affirm him like a christlarper; there's no need to assign him prestigous historical figures as parents. It's an exceptionally retarded conspiracy theory that makes associated strains of skepticism look poorly, which would be its purpose in terms of a simplest explanation.

>>22197498
i'm not an atheist. i just don't tell lies like you because i'm not a pussy who's going to burn in hell when he dies

>>22197510
You're already in hell christer, no need to go anywhere else to suffer

>>22197547
the shemsu hor should start bopping non-frens again

there some motherfuckers down here need to get bopped

>>22197560
wanting people to burn in hell isn't very friendly of you

>>22197607
just want to save some cocksuckers some money on heating bills

>>22197327
>nailed a celtic druid to a tree 2000 years ago
we wuz Jeezus n sheeit

>>22196542
Did they finally stop taking this bait on /his/ retard? Fuck off

if only Moses had remembered to say "Thou Shalt Not Work For The Government" this failed planet might not resemble a more retarded version of Terry Gilliam's Brazil