/lit/ - Literature

>>22171120
Common misconception. His point wasn't that it had null semantic meaning but that it was a statistically improbable sentence.

>>22171120
OP is a faggot
>but butt Mr Chomsky that linguistic construction by design tickles my sphincter!
Not an argument you flaming homo

>>22171120
>but that it was a statistically improbable sentence.
and why that is important in any way?.

>>22171275
this >>22171332

>>22171275
i see, so he was really smart after all
I'm glad he lived long enough to see LLMs something he contributed nothing for but was perhaps the most significant breakthrough ever in his area of expertise

>>22171332
"All knowledge reduces to probability, and all probability reduces to nothing"
David Hume
Just some fat guy what does he know?

>>22171348
what exactly do you mean?. that all knowledge is ultimately nothing?. or that probability is what gives meaning to things?.

>>22171378
Probability is what allows for frequency of events which allows for sense experience which allows for extensions and extrapolations.

>>22171332
Specifically, his point was to show that a finite-state Markov process would not be adequate as a model of grammar

>>22171395
Extrapolations allow for concepts which allows for abstract reasoning and future anticipation which allows for language to symbolize concordant symmetrical abstract units of meaning that can be codified in common congruence.
Interpersonal flexibility allows for slang interpretation with eye rolling that is usually above the capability of women and NPCs to pick up on.

>>22171395
so basically you are just exchanging "meaning" for "probability" making op right all over again?, fuck off.

>>22171120
OP got Chomsk'd

>>22171432
Probability is the big brained question that is quantifiable yet eternally mystifying as the hard problem of consciousness and being itself. Even God would say maybe to probability but how would he do so? Definitively? Indefinitively?
Einstein and Bohr debated this topic.
Some sodomite butt bomber and xzis xzer caved in head brown neon hair bugman Marxist compatriots argue the OP's milking of meaning nonexistent content with nebulous speech as meaningful more than a placeholder for shite.

>>22171435
Chomsky-honk

>>22171448
OP will be chomska-bonka-binka-bonga

>>22171432
Probability

MEANING is what allows for frequency of events (PERSONALLY COGNIZED) which allows for sense experience (INTERPRETED AND REMEMBERED) which allows for extensions and extrapolations.

Very different statement altogether.

>>22171120
Chomskabinchomskaboom.

>>22171465
wait... this people are talking about language as a pure thing?. not as a personally cognized intersubjectivity thing?.

>Analytic philosophy
ewwww

>>22171395
>Probability is what allows for frequency of events which allows for sense experience which allows for extensions and extrapolations.
>>22171465
>MEANING is what allows for frequency of events (PERSONALLY COGNIZED) which allows for sense experience (INTERPRETED AND REMEMBERED) which allows for extensions and extrapolations.
And what is meaning? The current of intention that flows through the structures provided by probability? Yet probability changes over time.

>>22171332
At the time (1950s) the way most people had been trying to deal with syntax was through probabilistic models. The point of the sentence was to show that it highly statistically improbable, yet any native speaker of English would recognize it as grammatically acceptable, (as opposed to, for example:
>*Furiously sleep ideas green colorless.

guys honestly none of this matters openai solved language

>>22171509
i understand. so he dont talk about the meaning of it at all?.

>>22171483
>people
Lol.exe

>>22171581

>>22171120
Poetry however tests our minds to conjure meaning where there may not be one or to override a superior meaning where one is but was lost in communication. It also depends on our experience and anticipation of mutual tangible human interaction.
Take a musical note like C.
Call it something else for your own private intents and purposes.
Say B#.
No one else knows your secret head canon you little conspiracy theorist.
The Ancient Greeks knew about the arcane music theory of Enharmonic equivalents yet it is the framework of intersubjective meaning that gives a musician knowledge over this arcane music jargon only when he studies what had been studied thousands of years prior where no laiety has ever heard or learned A=/=A where the laiety HAS heard A==A.
Yet you in your own mind said this is not a C note it MEANS something different to ME.
I USE IT.
Turns out you had your own secret schizo order beneath the cryptic arcana after all.
>Colourless green ideas
Sounds like the Heart Chakra
>Sleep furiously
Sounds like passion

There is no nonsense beyond the making of sense where the fancy can construct. Internal consistency and a legend to access the new framework however denotes the quality by this new interpretation.

>>22171509
Note that the native speaker is still noticing a statistical pattern but not directly in the relationships between the words like a simple Markov model does. The pattern of grammar that layered models can now detect like native speakers is more abstract, it's on another "layer" of statistical interpretation than direct word relationships.

You guys really need to wug up your linguistic kowledge.

>>22171632
https://youtu.be/kRui9apjWAY
10:40
This well tempered clavier is not an equal tempered clavier

>>22171552
I'm sure he mentions that it's meaningless, but I think the meaninglessness of the sentence is kind of incidental. I can't think of another sentence that would be equally improbable that wouldn't also be meaningless. (And of course you can ascribe meaning to the sentence if you try, like >>22171632)

>>22171348
"It all returns to nothing. It all comes tumbling down tumbling down tumbling down."
Otaku-tara Nikaya,
The Weeb Meditations

>>22171666
Holy Satan! I need to Bach up my files

>>22171647
NIGGERS

>>22171120
>>22171275
>>22171445
>>22171425
The problem I'm seeing is that there's a clash between
>meaning is already woven into the universe
with
>meaning is created
Statistics deals with predictability ("the probable"), which goes against creativity ("the possible"). Yet without the rules that come with predictability, there is no creativity. Hell, there is no meaning. I don't know how one ought to reconcile the two perspectives. It seems like a fundamental paradox. Hell, they kind of feed off of each other, too.

>>22171120
>The Colorless Green Ideas that Sleep furiously
The perfect title for an anarchist analysis/biography of Ted Kaczynski and green anarchism

InB4 buttmad nazilibs

>>22172154
Is math discovered or invented?
Yes

Discovery feels mystic and world bending.
Invention feels dry corporate and boring like changing diapers.
The discoverer is a mystic like Plato writing the Timaeus. The inventor is a reddit tier fedora like Bertrand Russell wanting to invent his way into some BUSSY

>>22171120
Jesus Christ, what a cringe retard.

>>22172414
Extrapolate this hypothesis of yours

>>22171668
An meaningful but highly improbable sentence:
>OP is straight

>>22172411
>passively observing extant circumstance feels mystic and world bending
>exerting your divine spark upon the world feels dry corporate and boring
You're reaching levels of low T that shouldn't even be possible.

>>22171408
lol holy illiterateposter
you should sit down and read Aspects before posting.
>>22172576
you're smart

>>22171781
How very kiki of you. Not very bouba.

>>22172411
>Is math discovered or invented?
I don't believe the distinction matters personally anymore. Because after listening to Wildberger, anything discoverable math, to me, is anything that's compatible with finitism. Anything beyond that is a fictional construct that still requires the realm of possibility, just not our realm. Yet while the former is perhaps more boring, the latter still has plenty of arbitrary applications that still work more or less. All mathematics requires a prior framework of intelligibility which has to be "discovered", the same way that the caverns of imagination must be already present in order to be explored by the mind.

>>22172795
You should read Three Models for the Description of Language, which is the paper in which Chomsky first used the sentence as an example. The three models in question are finite-state Markov processes, phrase structure grammar, and transformational grammar. The colorless green ideas sentence is used specifically to show the inadequacy of the first model.

bump

>>22172576
>reading about a discovery
Feels world bending. You can discuss discovery with anyone without intersubjective filtering like Indians knowing all this vedanta but being shy bobs vagene IT cricket geeks.
>reading about an invention
You pick up a manual. You use product. You see the smiling inventor. You scowl in your slip shod slop shop industry.
>you do it yourself
You smile
Your discovery your invention is your being one in the same. Your mathematical ecstasy that Plato called the music in man.

>>22172829
mathematical concepts are invented, then their internal logic is discovered. Just like chess was invented, then good moves and tactics were discovered. I can't believe this is still such a major-league problem. Philosophers are pitiful brainlets

>>22175052
My intuition says that chess is invented, tactics are invented, but they're predicated on some internal structure to the invention and tactics in general. And for some reason, it seems like some mathematical concepts are not invented, or at least are so primordial that they're only one step away from pure discovery.

jump

>>22175173
That leap into the primordial allows for you to have more consciousness than the immediate moment.
"I cannot call him a man who knows not that a connecting side (hypotenuse) is incommensurable to the legs of a triangle" Plato
The Diamond Cutter Sutta of the greater perfection of wisdom Prajnaparamitra states a paradox of
A==A=/=A

>>22175874
>i depicted you as the basedjak for failing geometry class
>this is a platonic form

>>22171120
>Literal linguist
>Chose poetry which is linguistic masturbating as reference for example
>.
>.....Poetrylet

>>22171478
>>22171457
>>22171448
https://youtu.be/k7xclaa4vyc
Dweeb
Honky
Honkydweeb
Dweebie chimp
Chomskyhonk
Did you know there's over 87 variations of those soul scalding words?

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