/lit/ - Literature

Yeah

Nah

>>22157845
In the sense that it is another author at their best, sure. But it is not post modern if that is what you are thinking.

>>22157873
Postmodern is an attitude.

>>22157873
I meant it the first way. I just read it for the first time and am genuinely surprised how much I enjoyed it. I thought it was better than anything Pynchon's done excepting Gravity's Rainbow and maybe M&D. But I've only read it once so I'm wondering if it's just an initial reaction that would subside on subsequent reads.

>>22157878
Gaddis' attitude is very much of the modernist and it may have actually been of the classicist but accepted modernist out of pragmatism.
>>22157891
Hard to say without you providing more than just "I liked it." They both have that autistic attention to detail and size which means you always miss things to discover on subsequent reads but Gaddis is a bit easier to get and more concrete. With Pynchon we can never really know theme, we can get in the general vicinity but we can't actually know it and feel a sense of completion; Gaddis is more direct in such things but he still manages to raise enough questions in the reader that it is not just preaching.

>>22157922
>With Pynchon we can never really know theme
You are making it sound like his writing is some loosely connected prose pieces. There is clearly a theme running through his work. And he has his fair share of preachy moments.

>>22157922
>theme
it's just Pynchs choices...conspiracies that can't be proven, paradoxes that have no conclusion, cyclical nature's which only have the question of will it or will it not continue? rhetorical stuff as well...it gives you a lot of fuel for exploring but can it really lead to something?

>>22157932
Pynchon is just as interested in the questions as the ideas.
>>22157936
Sure, it leads to plenty, just not to him. Pynchon provides an analytical model and uses it to explore the world, this is why he is a postmodernist. Instead of offering his view of the world he gives us a different way to look at the world, it is up to us to apply the tools he gives us. Just because we can never know the answers does not mean the questions are not worth asking.

>>22157960
>Pynchon provides an analytical model and uses it to explore the world, this is why he is a postmodernist.
That's just naturalism. Predates both postmodernism and modernism by 50 years. I am not sure what you are even referring to when you say analysis. Pynchon takes a historical perspective in delivering his point, which doesn't belong to any specific movement whatsoever.

>>22157845
That's pap compared to GR.

>>22158023
You admit to not knowing but you also plainly state that I am just talking about naturalism? Do you not see the issue there? I am all for engaging in discussion on the topic but you need to offer more than myopic retardation.

>>22158117
I admitted to not seeing whatever dumbassery you are suggesting, you retard. Basically, I was saying that you are projecting the two philosophy books you have read and making it seem like it is more than what it is. How incapable are you of reading two sentences? If this "analytical model" exists in your fantasy, stating it would not make people see your point. But it seems you are a child too taken by his interpretations. There is no discussion to be had. You are not capable of it. The fact you didn't even know what naturalism is kind of says everything to begin with.

>>22158117
Honestly, it seems you just wanted to get offended. >>22157922 absolutely no arguments here. "Analytical model", "postmodermism" first time I have heard of this bullshit.

>>22158152
Given this being 4chan, what does a mixed message suggest? Rarely quality discussion in my experience so I asked for for something more. You could have obliged and asked a few questions, elaborate, and let me hang myself since you seem so convinced I am wrong, but you spaz out instead.
>>22158162
Well if you have not heard of them then they not possibly exist.
>offended
ESL? Or troll?

>>22158296
>You could have obliged and asked a few questions, elaborate, and let me hang myself since you seem so convinced I am wrong, but you spaz out instead.
This 4chan. Even on reddit people aren't servile enough to talk as if they are children talking to a professor. I worded as inoffensively as possible. If you are still going to offended then maybe you had no heart to explain your position to begin with. The post where I disagreed was a perfect setup.

>>22157845
>Does this compare to Pynchon at his best?
One is Reddit, the other is not. You'll just have to read it.

>>22158314
>4chan - shithole filled with pathetic circle jerks and petty bickering
>reddit - shithole filled with pathetic circle jerks and petty bickering
I wonder if there is a correlation?

The Recognitions is better than most of Pynchon. But I agree Gravity's Rainbow and Mason & Dixon are better. And I'd actually put Lot 49 above it as well.

I do think Pynchon was influenced by Gaddis however. V reads like TR part 2 in some ways.

>>22159310
>But I agree Gravity's Rainbow and Mason & Dixon are better.
obviously, that goes without saying.
> I'd actually put Lot 49 above it as well.
WTF, how??
>I do think Pynchon was influenced by Gaddis however.
And Gaddis was influenced by Joyce, even if he denies it.

>>22159317
What is the point of your post? That Gaddis makes you insecure about liking Pynchon? That's the vibe I am getting.

>>22157845
It's much better

>>22159341
?

>>22159343
if you're a hipster, sure. if you're being objective, not really.

>>22159347
good one, mr. redditor

>>22159349
Yup. This is spot on>>22159341

>>22159357
>projecting is on point
if you agree with the projection

>>22159310
>I do think Pynchon was influenced by Gaddis however.

I used to disagree with that, then I found out that even though TR was really unknown and under the radar, apparently The Beats absolutely loved it and really admired Gaddis. And knowing how much Pynch loved The Beats it's not a big leap to assume he may have come across TR from delving into the beats.

>>22159351
>If you don't think Lot 49 is better than The Recognitions you're le redditor!
Huh?

>>22159370
Reading the beats is different from reading the obscure books that they were reading. It is a substantial leap.

>>22159383
not really, but ok

>>22159367
Say whatever. It looks that way.
>>22159370
His friends have said that he used to roam with a copy of The Recognitions in tow.

>>22159411
>Say whatever. It looks that way.
I don't care what you say. I'm simply saying TR is better than Lot 49 but not better than GR and M&D. Whatever else you read is in your head.

>>22159374
oh sorry, anon. had another thread opened and meant that for someone else

>>22159395
Kind of is. People generally don't have public lists of every obscure book read by alternative authors. And we're talking about a reclusive author.
>>22159411
Ah, yes, his "friends" who would love to demerit his achievements.

>>22159423
>I'm simply saying TR is better than Lot 49 but not better than GR and M&D
You are not just saying it. You want to hear it from everyone else too.>>22159349

>>22159452
Having influences is not a demerit you high schooler. Even if you remove Gaddis, there are still at least half a dozen post-war writers you can list whose direct influence is very visible on him.

>>22159452
not, really, but ok. keep crying about it if you want

>>22159452
>Ah, yes, his "friends" who would love to demerit his achievements.
How is being influenced by another author a demerit? Have you read Slow Learner? He goes into a ton of his influences?

You keep posting with all these reddit takes. Can you just go back?

>>22159472
>Having influences is not a demerit
Then why doesn't Gaddis want to admit that he read Joyce? Admitting that you were influenced by literature close to your time can be a blow to the ego for certain artists, especially those who view themselves as visionaries or geniuses.
>How is being influenced by another author a demerit? Have you read Slow Learner? He goes into a ton of his influences?
Sure but he doesn't explicitly mention Gaddis as his influence. That's the point. He's always compared to Gaddis. Saying that you liked the beats or whatever is just being a hippie of your time.
>You keep posting with all these reddit takes. Can you just go back?
Am I hurting your delicate sensibilities? 4chan is the place where you can be critical and be negative. Want blind positivity and praise? Go to reddit.

>>22159456
Am I pointing a gun at the faggot or something?

>>22159581
>>22159480

>>22159475
Crying for what, exactly? You faggots are a little weird.

>>22159594
>>22159597

nice one, mr. redditor

>>22159581
this is a good one, too, mr. redditor

>>22159597
Are you still crying about this? I'm sorry anon, you are very smart and I won't criticize or be negative of your opinion since it hurts your delicate feelings.

>>22159629
>>22159635
what's your problem, buddy?

>>22159673
Crying about what exactly? Do you think I'm another user you were arguing with in the past?

>>22159682
>>22159702
i wish i could upvote this more, you owned those anons, mr. redditor

What a faggy thread.

>>22159706
Gaddis is a faggy author.

>>22159712
nice one, mr. redditor

>>22159712
I haven't even read him but i love the fact that he's causing uncontrollable seethe beyond the grave.

>>22159581
>Then why doesn't Gaddis want to admit that he read Joyce? Admitting that you were influenced by literature close to your time can be a blow to the ego for certain artists, especially those who view themselves as visionaries or geniuses.
Don't get offended on Pynchon's behalf then.

Besides, Gaddis denied influence from everyone. He was just that way. Most writers aren't like that.

>>22159719
nice one, mr. redditor

>>22159727
>n-no you
pretty pathetic, mr. redditor

>>22159722
>Don't get offended on Pynchon's behalf then.
Give up, anon. The guy you're replying to is one of those faggy redditors who's more obsessed about the author and their lives than he is the actual works.

>>22159581
>Admitting that you were influenced by literature close to your time can be a blow to the ego for certain artists, especially those who view themselves as visionaries or geniuses.
Only non-genius artists think this way. Visionaries care about a personal vision, doesn't matter who or what inspires it, or when.

What matters more? The works of an author or his personality?

>>22159731
nice one, mr. redditor

>>22159745
The works. Most people realize this. Unfortunately we have one faggot who cares more about Pynchon's personality and ensuring everyone knows he was never influenced by anyone because he thinks it's a demerit for a writer to be influenced by another writer. And if you can't believe anyone would be that stupid to think that, scroll up and read the posts.

>>22159722
Offended how?
>>22159736
We are talking about their work and influences, not about their personal lives.

>>22159756
you did it again! you owned him, mr. redditor!

>>22159759
I never said he wasn't influenced by anyone. We were talking about Gaddis specifically.

>>22159737
>Only non-genius artists think this way.
So, Gaddis? Sounds about right considering he denied influence from Joyce (and others).

>>22159776
good content, mr. redditor

>>22159766
nice one, mr. redditor

>>22159770
>>22159452
You said having influences was a demerit.

I wish Reddit goes down. So our anons will have some other boogeyman.

>>22159779
nice argument, mr. redditor

>>22159782
good one, mr. redditor

>>22159763
You clearly are. You must be tone deaf.

>>22159790
you got him again, mr. redditor

>>22159786
I said his friends were trying to demerit him (without evidence).

>>22159796
I'm just blunt.

>>22159809
how could they demerit him by saying he was influenced by gaddis?

There is really no way to measure influence but one can point out certain similarities and why not, tribute.
There is a faustian bargain both in TR and in AtD. The Mephistophelian figure in each book has a personal interest in the history of art and both are killed by a business partner.
There is also a web of agents that are addicted to the substance they use to exchange information. In some case one spy spends most of his time with his head inside the oven, using and abusing the gas. Similar to the political subplot and personal history of the Incadenza family.
In fact, Inherent Vice and Against the Day are titled after dialogue scenes from TR and JR respectively.
>As we walked along the President's Garden, I asked John Barth, "Doesn't Pynchon's book and all its attention bother you, as if this were the first time an American novelist had considered this particular geography or ventured to write an entire novel within its idiom?" "No, Tris, not at all," he replied. "In fact, just recently Pynchon was kind enough to send me an inscribed copy. He wrote: 'To John Barth: Been there, done that.'"

>>22159820
It means you're not that original. For faggots like you it's a compliment but for someone on a high artistic level can be an insult. Tell me again why Gaddis didn't acknowledge influence from Joyce (who btw was, is and will be more influential and popular). He not only deny influence. He downright said he didn't read Joyce. Yea, right.

>>22159982
Ah, yes, the faustian bargain. A literary trope never before seen in history before Billy Gaddis came to teach us all about dealing with the devil.

>>22160034
Keep crying, mr. redditor

>>22160042
wonderful r/books level argument, mr. redditor

>>22157891
>I thought it was better than anything Pynchon's done excepting Gravity's Rainbow and maybe M&D

Wow you don't say

>>22160045
You're making my case for me. And this guy was right >>22159737

>>22160056
good one, mr. redditor

>>22160052
Unlike claiming a writer was giga influential because he used a famous trope.

>>22160063
you owned him, mr. redditor

>>22160042
I mentioned two other similarities you know...

>>22160090
Just give it a rest, anon. He's a redditor who think when people like Pynchon talk about their influences (in the intro to Slow Learner) they are faggots and not of high artistic level.

>>22160107
Pynchon never mentions Gaddis in the intro to Slow Learner. Let alone as an influence. He mentions the beats and Bellow. Don't remember what else.

>>22160119
It's not about who's the influence, it's about the act of being influenced as per this post >>22160034 being influenced means you're not original and not on a high artistic level, but faggots see it as a compliment therefore when Pynchon admits his influences he's a faggot and not on a high artistic level.

>>22160132
>being influenced means you're not original and not on a high artistic level
No, being compared to a contemporary means you're not that original (in the artist's mind). It's not about being influenced in itself.
> but faggots see it as a compliment therefore when Pynchon admits his influences he's a faggot and not on a high artistic level.
Pynchon was namedropping people who were inferior to him (the beats lol). Admitting the bigger influence (Gaddis) is what we're talking about here. Gaddis couldn't even admit he read Joyce, on the other hand.

>>22160138
Does he have to? Gaddis was traveling in Central America while Ulysses was still an underground work in America.
Plus the influences on TR are mentioned in the book itself.

>>22160158
>Gaddis was traveling in Central America while Ulysses was still an underground work in America.
Gaddis was born the same year Ulysses was published in Europe. Due to the puritanism and faggotry of American politicians, it wasn't published in the US until 1934. Are you telling me that Gaddis (who started writing TR until 1948 and finished in 1955) never read the most controversial literary masterpiece of the era that every writer was reading at the time? I don't buy it. And well into the 70s he still was claiming he never even read Ulysses. He remembers having read Dubliners, Portrait and even the play Exile (that few people read btw) but not Ulysses? lol come on.

We could say the same about Pynchon. He was living in Mexico in the early 60s when 5 years prior a book by a then-irrelevant first-time writer was published. Maybe he read it after (>>22159982 mentions a vague influence on two 21st century Pynchon books). Gaddis became non-irrelevant when he won the National Book Award in 1975, for his second novel J R. Two years after Pynchon won it for Gravity's Rainbow (his third novel). Did Gaddis' Recognitions influenced early Pynchon? Doesn't seem like it.

>>22160266
>more drivel about personal lives
anon, please go back. go to tiktok, go to reddit, wherever it is you obviously enjoy talking about celebrities and marvel movies as evidenced by your puerile and superficial comments

>>22160266
You are getting your facts wrong. He never claims not having read Ulysses.
He jokes some parts of it were shared in his circle for their pornographic value and that's it.

>>22160325
We're discussing influence and careers, sonny, not personal lives.
>He never claims not having read Ulysses.
Are you sure? In the 70s he was still claiming that he had never read Ulysses.

>>22160326
>>22160355

>>22160355
Where they lived is not their personal lives? How stupid are you? Why are you interested in celebrity culture? Please, just go back, I promise you can discuss your celebrities all you want. Let people who want to actually discuss literature have this place, as terrible as it's become.

>>22160266
Jesus christ, we've been taken over by zoomers.

>>22160355
Yes, i'm sure. He gave an interview in the 90's i think.

>>22160366
That guy tried to excuse Gaddis by saying he was living abroad. Where they live is important in context because he's basically saying Gaddis had no access to literary culture (even though Ulysses was read in Latin America's literary scene). You sound incredibly retarded and you're embarrassing yourself by saying reddit this, reddit that. Refute me or fuck off.

>>22160370
Refute me, then.

>>22160385
please go back anon. all the "where they lived" and "who are they dating" discussions are really in depth. whatever celebrity you want to discuss you can. whatever new house they bought or what beach resort they're vacationing at you can discuss to your heart's content. just please let people like me who actually want to discuss literature have this place

>>22160381
Post it then, specific quote if you can.

Man, this is getting really close to the "X BTFO Y" philosophy threads we had back then.

>>22160390
We're discussing influence, nigger. Again, refute me or fuck off. I don't care what you say otherwise.

>>22160396
anon please. all these celebrities you want to discuss, just go back, they even have their own subreddits you can choose. wherever pynchon lived, wherever gaddis lived, who justin bieber's dating, i promise you'll enjoy it. just let literature lovers have this place

>>22160391
Ambiguity and uncertainty is a big part of what makes a book board interesting. If you want absolute answers you will not find them here. Literature is not a natural science and i think you will find yourself at home in some other place where you can "refute" people and their interpretations.

>>22160402
I'm discussing the unlikely event of Gaddis having never read Ulysses. You're talking about reddit, subreddits, redditors. You clearly belong there, faggot.

>>22160408
just give up anon. all that faggot cares talking about is "refuting people" like literature a sport with a winner (anyone who thinks like that is a midwit of the biggest kind)

>>22160412
Please just go back. All the celebrities you love you can discuss. which celeb do you want to discuss where they lived? I promise you can discuss it there.

>>22160408
>A non-answer answer
I cited a Gaddis letter but you can't find the quote from the interview that you say. Ambiguity and uncertainty? No, it's called talking about of your ass.

>>22160421
Been here for years. I'm not going anywhere because some faggot can't handle reality.

>>22160422
Well. At least you are having fun using google.

>>22160428
which celebrity do you love? please go ahead and discuss them there, i'm begging you. people who want to read books and discuss only have this place

>>22160428
May i suggest you try /tv/? A lot of trivia about important people there you can soak in and discuss

Conclusion: Gaddis read Ulysses but his pride and ego was too big to acknowledge it. End of story.

>>22160432
I love you. You're my favorite celebrity. The nigger who can't shut up about all things Reddit. Truly a good addition to this board.

>>22160422
>No, it's called talking about of your ass.
I don't care about Gaddis, Joyce, Pynchon, etc.'s influences, I just want to know why is it always esl's who have to derail threads with their shitposts?

You faggots could have finished a novella maybe by the time this thread got to this point

>>22160441
For the lulz.

Do you people want to talk about the book?
If you want to talk about Joyce you can use a different thread.

>>22160439
please anon. all the celebrities you love you can discuss over there. please just go. we love books here and it's all we have.

>>22160450
This thread is not about talking about the book. It's about comparing Pynchon to Gaddis. Read the title.

>>22160463
just go back. all the celebrities. i swear they have great discussions about their private lives you can continue over there.

>>22160452
You're my favorite celebrity and I can only find you here, so here I am and I'm not going anywhere. I hope that makes things clear.

>>22160463
What does Joyce have to do with Pynchon?

>>22160472
Does this compare to Pynchon at his best?

>>22160477
Please anon. Whoever you want to discuss and where they lived you can

>>22160475
Everything. Huge influence that is specially evident in V.

>>22160482
What tools do you use to measure influence?

>>22160480
Does this compare to Pynchon at his best?

>>22160475
Pybchon condenses Joyce's entire career in GR

>>22160490
I’m begging you anon. Whatever celebrity

>>22160493
How so?

>>22160493
Are Americans this delusional?

>>22160486
My swollen cock after fucking your mother. It tingles when influence is found.

>>22160494
Does this compare to Pynchon at his best?

>>22160504
any celebrity anon, i swear

>>22160506
Does this compare to Pynchon at his best?

>>22160508
all the celebs, i promise

Reading Gaddis is closer to reading Henry James than anything else really. I'm even surprised by the posmodern label around his work.

>>22160513
Henry James sucks so much. What a pathetic "writer".

>>22160513
I agree. I don't think he's considered postmodern to be fair. Usually heard him described as high modernist or proto-postmodern.

But, more than James, I think his biggest influence is pretty obvious if you've read The Waste Land.

>>22160513
Gaddis was a late modernist, yea.

>>22160519
This but replace Henry James with William Gaddis.

>>22160535
Is there another example of a great late modernist? Usually Gaddis is the only writer that i've seen people refer as such.

>>22160542
Beckett

What's the most accessible Henry James novel according to you?

>>22160542
Gombrowicz

>>22160565
The Portrait of a Lady

>>22160565
All of them are pretty dry. I guess the Turning is more accesible than The Portrait.

>>22160574
Yea, but Turning is a novella.

>>22160581
potato, patata

Nothing kills my love for literature like this place.

>>22160926
Then your love was not even that big in the first place.

>>22158396
Both are