/lit/ - Literature

>>22116267
I only want to learn Latin to read Ovid’s Metamorphoses. How should I go about it? (what Latin variety should I read, how many hours of study every day, etc)

>>22116286
Get "Latin Via Ovid" textbook and then graded Ovid readers.

What the fuck is up with OCT and these lunate sigmas? Illegible

>>22116306
Thanks for the advice

>>22116306
this is a really good book for just reading Ovid. focuses on his specific vocab, grammatical quirks, and teaches you enough about general Latin grammar. i'd further advise to begin with Amores since each couplet is a complete thought, a sentence unlike other Roman poetry that can meander through several lines before reaching the end of a sentence. he has other works too so read those so you can become even more familiar with him before diving into his magnum opus

>>22116315
OCT's have been pretty shit since the 80's in general

>>22116373
Wish I'd found out before I bought a few. My Xenophon has lovely typesetting but is printed on bad paper; this Hesiod has horrendous typesetting. Teubners it is from now on, even if I have to import.

>>22116403
just buy used

Trying to learn how to pronounce long vowels in Latin
https://vocaroo.com/1bnfs84NdWlL

Does any anon have a suggestion of a place to find the translation of Greek works into Latin?
New or old, I don't care. I would like to find as much as I can, from philosophy to theatre and poetry.

link me up some arabic shit

>>22116777
there's a bunch of links here for many works https://subsidia.vivariumnovum.it/risorse-didattiche/per-la-pratica-didattica/versioni-latine-di-classici-greci-con-originale-a-fronte-serie-fratelli-didot

>>22116809
Thank you.
I look forward to more

>>22116708
not bad anon

>>22116361
>Amores
Kek this is a good one. Even has a poem dedicated to beating his gf.

reddit

what's an exclamation for oops in Latin?

>>22117536
redde ad reddit redditor

>>22116267
> ΘΑΛΑΣΣΑ
wrong dialect

How do I learn prose composition in Greek? I can read Xenophon well enough but writing an intelligible sentence in Greek feels almost impossible.
There used to be more greekposters here so if any of you still lurk here give me some good materials and tips.

>>22117986
Edepol

Anonymous anonymis suis salutem
quo loco res vestrae sunt? quod ad me scribitis, per mihi gratum est; porro autem mihi ignosce quod abs me tam diu nihil litterarum - tu de tuis ad me rebus ac de Tina Turner morbo nuper adflicto scripsistis antea diligenter. Ξυνελὼν λέγω spero me esse moriturum dies Mercuris ante diem septimum Idus Junias MMDCCLXXVI a.u.c.
curate ut valeatis et vobis persuadeati vos a me veluti fraterne plurimi aestimari. Valete.

I harvest my wife's diarrhea in Mason jars and use it as stock for holiday stew

Learning cases taken by verbs for Classical Greek and I was being hard. The passage explaining it was so awkwardly written I was confused as fuck for about an hour as I read it over and over again. What is it with these textbooks where the authors all seem to be unable to write clearly?
>Most Greek verbs that are followed naturally by a noun have it in the accusative
could easily be
>Nouns that (naturally) follow most Greek verbs will be in the accusative as they are the direct object.

>>22116267
I kek'd.

>>22118063
well they say practice makes perfect but you gotta find something you like to put effort into writing
sometimes I do /lang/ challenges in Attic when they aren't too too modern, but myself I haven't done much when it comes to composition

>someone posted the shit picture I made
:)

>>22118311
It seems pretty clear to me bro...

Who were that couple (married?) who were autistic classicists to the point that they actually spoke to each other at home in ancient greek. I swear someone posted a Wikipedia screenshot describing it here like 11 months ago. That's how I'm finna be with my big tiddy Latina GF except with Latin fr fr no cap

>>22117141
t-thanks

I know there are some issues, like accidentally saying mē instead of me, but do I have approximately correct unstressed long vowels?

>>22118063
There are books for this, such as North and Hillard, Sidgwick, and Dickey.

it does come
>venit
it has come
>venit
it came
>venit

>>22119737
*vēnit

>>22116306
>>22116361
Not him but thats pretty cool. How many Latin texts are used as a base for learning like that?

>>22120084
A lot of Latin classes used to be setup around teaching you to reach De Bello Gallico.

what does this motto mean

>>22116777
bump

>>22120181
the sense should be literally "I don't reject needing to use weapons" i.e I'll use weapons if push comes to shove

>>22120181
>>22120259
Very literally: "The need for me (is) weapons, not refuge"

>>22120296
yes, I think you are right actually

what's that greek hapax that only occurs in one of the gospels

>>22120355
ἐπιούσιος ?

>>22120390
yes, thank you

>>22120084
>How many Latin texts are used as a base for learning like that?
As >>22120158 said. But I would add that this is falling out of style nowadays as people are using more and more artificially composed Latin stories to try to emulate Le Natural Method©

100 years ago your first year was basically all about Caesar. So you would learn vocab about battles, camps, and troop movements, along with idioms that you could find in Caesar's commentaries on the Gallic and Civil Wars, Nepos' Life of Hannibal, & finally Sallust's Jugurthine War with most composition exercises trying to get you to use Caesar as the standard for syntax and style. There may be extra readings from Phaedrus, Aulus Gellius, or Plautus.

Your second year textbook would continue Sallust with the Catiline War and then use that to transition you into Cicero's Oration Against Catiline as the main text. You would then read some letters from Cicero and then maybe Pliny's as well. Any composition exercises would require you to emulate Cicero.

Your third and fourth years would vary depending on the author and publisher, but generally speaking you would dive deep into verse and advanced prose. You're main focus would be Ovid, Virgil, & Horace. There would also be lots of Livy and Tacitus for prose to provide variety. Any composition would probably be poetic rather than prose and you would learn to use various meters.

So basically if you are interested in any of those authors specifically, you can search for "Latin year (#)" online under 'books' and narrow your search to older books and you will find lots of content. All the pre 1923 stuff is available for free on Archive.

>>22116267
Just tried rewriting Sonnet 18 in Latin.
Comparemne te diei aestivo?
Es dulcior venustiorque:
Venti crudi germines Maiei conmovent,
Et aestas nimis brevis est
Interdum oculus caeli nimis lucet
Saepeque eius colos aureus foedatur;
Et interdum omnis candor candore declinat,
Aut fortuna, aut naturae mutans cursu, (nuda):
Sed nec tui aestas eterna deficiet,
Nec amittet hanc formam tuus;
Nec Mors gloriabitur te in suus umbra vagari
Cum in eterno versu lates:
Dum viri possunt spirare oculique videre
Hoc vivit, et vitam tibi dat.

bvmp

>>22120614
your iambs and rhyambs are all busted

>>22119575
Thomas Taylor

Does anyone have any Classical Latin anthology readers that you could recommend? They can be glossed or annotated, but don't necessarily need to be. There are several Medieval Latin readers that I know of, but not a lot of classical anthologies. It seems like the classical readers are just selections of specific texts like De Bello Gallico or In Catilinam and are always based on GCSE/AP exam crap. I'm looking for something in the vein of Roma Aeterna or the Wheelock's Latin Reader - just selections from various classical authors.

>>22122282
Oxford Book of Latin Verse

>Cum Cicero apud Damasippum cenaret et ille, mediocri vino in mensa posito, diceret, "Bibe hoc Falernum; hos est vinum quadraginta annorum," Cicero sic respondit, "Bene aetatem fert!"

hoc non intellego

>>22122507
lol what dont you understand?

>>22122507
My latin is shit. As best I could understand, it's some gathering to celebrate someone. Guy brings out this mediocre 40 year old wine and Cicero responds with some wise crack I couldn't translate. Someone help us out.

>>22122507
>bene aetatem fert

My best guess is 'it carries its age well', i.e., this mediocre wine doesn't seem like a 40 year old Falernum.

But don't trust me, my latin is also shit.

>>22122516
I meant that I don't get the joke.

>>22122507
When Cicero was dining with Damasippus, and he, having served middling wine, was saying, "Drink this Falernum; it is a 40 year-old vintage", Cicero answered thus, "It doesn't show its age!"

>>22118063
The best works to learn Attic Greek prose composition are all written in German - surprise, surprise. We are the nation of autists and scholars.

>>22117528
which one?

Why did nobody tell me the bucolic poets were this good? Just read Bion and working my way through Theocritus. More like this please?

>>22123076
Fuck, I just need to learn German already.

>>22123197
>neve mei sceleris tam tristia signa supersint,
>pone recompositas in statione comas.
NTA but I'm pretty sure it's Amores, book I, poem VII

I know it’s not really within the domain of this thread, but I was wondering if anyone had any tips of learning to read Dante in the original? His Tuscan is more classic I’d say, certainly not like modern Italian anyway. Do I just learn Italian and then work backwards? I would appreciate some advice

>>22123419
>tips of learning to read Dante in the original
>Do I just learn Italian and then work backwards?
Modern Italian is probably closer than Latin so i'd say yeah. Just get an a modern annotated Italian edition with vocabulary and a good introduction. I'm guessing kids in Italy study it the way we would study Shakespeare or maybe even Chaucer (modified with modern spelling).

That being said, I don't think it would hurt to know both Italian and Latin and maybe start by reading Dante's Latin texts first like De Monarchia or De Vulgari Eloquentia to get used to his style and the vocabulary of the day. Latin had lots of loan words from vernacular languages by that point.

>>22123419
Learning modern Italian will get you most of the way there. The rest is learning some archaic vocabulary.

Does anyone have a good road map to learn Coptic and Syriac? I'm assuming I should learn Hebrew, then Aramaic, first, but I have no idea.

>>22123419
My Latin professor said it was in Italian, which disappoints me since I have a copy in both that and English.

On the subject of Dante, can anyone recommend a good dictionary of his Italian? Or commentaries on his work?

>>22123504
coptic is afro-asiatic but it's not semitic. its resurgence in late antiquity seems to have been a rejection of greek byzantine rule over egypt, so the extant texts might be late antiquity but its origin is pharaonic egypt.

dantebros, do any translations exist of The Divine Comedy in Latin?

>>22123919
>Or commentaries on his work?
<-- unironically

I would like to eventually learn Classical Chinese for the fun of it. I'm currently studying Simplified Mandarin because I already have a few books on hand in that script. Where would you start?

I was recently listening to The Iliad recited in Ancient Greek, pretty comfy
https://archive.org/details/Iliad1458611/Iliad1_1-100.flac

https://hypotactic.com/homer/iliad1.html
He's completed the entire Iliad, plus the Odyssey till Book 7

>>22124227
>>22124239
>tryhard overemoting
embarrassing
compare to this and see how laughable Chamberlain is
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qI0mkt6Z3I0

>>22124244
Least it isn't as tryhard as Bronze Age Pervert. That there is one goofy motherfucker
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2a53kCfNiU

>>22124257
this is unironically better than chamberlain.
it's pretty clear he learned this goofy pronunciation from those 'reading greek' audio materials

>>22124007
>implying that 14th century Italian is much different than Latin
kek, babby's first foreign language book

>>22120614
Garbage, and I say that benevolently because you obviously know Latin well enough to translate. But pick a Latin (!) metre and commit to it.

>>22124213
Rouzer's New Practical Primer.

Bros what are some good resources for learning to write Latin poetry?

>>22124552
Dante’s Italian is remarkably close to Modern Italian, and not by accident. Ever noticed that there’s a Middle English, French, German, but nothing like that for Italian?
Latin, of course, is another language, so no, Dante’s Italian is nothing like Latin.
I’m being trolled, am I?

>>22124554
I wasn’t going for meter, it’s just a semi-literal translation. But I might try to adapt it to dactylic hexameter later

>After which Boniface, Benedict III of the Order of Preachers, was pope for one year, of whom a certain ribald wit said in Latin :

>A re nomen habe benedic, benefac, benedicte;
>Aut rem perverte maledic, malefac, maledicte.

>>22116267
https://discord.com/invite/N37M9Ny
Artificial Academy 2 General /aa2g/ #1282
Sad Jack Edition

Welcome, this general is for the discussion of ILLUSION's Artificial Academy 2.

COPY ERROR MESSAGES WITH CTRL+C, PASTE THEM WITH CTRL+V INTO GOOGLE TRANSLATE. JUST CLICK THE WINDOW AND PRESS CTRL + C, IT WORKS.

>Downloads:
/aa2g/ Pre-Installed Game, AA2Mini: https://tsukiyo.me/AAA/AA2MiniPPX.xml
AAUnlimited updates: https://github.com/aa2g/AA2Unlimited/releases
Anon's Modded Pre-Install: https://pastebin.com/42JS3q6E

>Information:
AA2Mini Install Guide:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vS8Ap6CrmSNXRsKG9jsIMqHYuHM3Cfs5qE5nX6iIgfzLlcWnmiwzmOrp27ytEMX03lFNRR7U5UXJalA/pub
General FAQ:
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AAU Guide and Resources (Modules, Tans, Props, Poses, and More):
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>Character Cards [Database], now with a list of every NonOC in the megas:
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https://db.bepis.moe/aa2/

>Mods & More:
Mods for AAU/AA2Mini (ppx format, the mediafire has everything):
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/aa2g/ Modding Reference Guide (Slot lists for Hair/Clothes/Faces, List Guides, and More):
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Booru: https://aau.booru.org

>HELP! I have a Nvidia card and my game crashes on startup!
Try the dgVoodoo option in the new win10fix settings.
Alternative: Update your AAU and see if it happens again. If so, disable win10fix, enable wined3d and software vertex processing.
>HELP! Required Windows 11 update broke things!
winkey+R -> ms-settings:developers -> Terminal=Windows Console Host

Discord:
https://discord.com/invite/N37M9Ny

>>22125249
That's just because the Tuscan dialect as codified by Dante is the basis for modern Italian. Italian vernacular literature is actually fairly young, dating to the 13th century at the earliest, and was somewhat of a reaction to the much older Occitan and French traditions of lyric poetry and chivalric romance. Dante was the first major Italian author to write in Italian, and his influence was so great that it defined the course of the Italian language for the following centuries.

>>22125707
elegaic couplets would be more appropriate for the material

can't wait for marcus's redemption arc

>>22116267
Anyone else vastly prefer the pronunciation/ aesthetics of ecclesiastical Latin? Why do classical Cicero fags bully us?

>>22126350
Yes

>>22126350
Which language's Ecclesiastical Latin?

>>22126196
His redemption arc is his tabella surviving throughout the millenia and telling us that the Romans had a silent H- and a nasalized -M.

>>22126350
>/t͡ʃ/
>/d͡ʒ/
mmh yikes

>>22126438
I think he means Italian ecclesiastical latin

>>22116267

>>22127093
Ok, but why

>>22127093
Wouldn't salit be a better, more direct translation?

>>22127093
You forgot brown btw.

>>22126196
The real redemption arc is Iulius deciding to stop paying this hack tutor.

>encounter word in text, like invidia or mediocris
>interpret them respectively as envy and middling/ordinary
>they actually mean hate and mediocre in this context
It's all so tiring

I'm learning Japanese instead

>>22127184
Same but in Greek. Another is when you get a grammar ruled explained for a a specific scenario and the first time you ever meet the example word in context doesn't use the rule and makes you second guess
>>22127615
Greek and Latin are unironically easier though

Steel and hingot multitude of bookish echoists of your previous cultural experience:
the man that when I saw the pendulum on the branch of komulaid world aid sweetbirdsang this nose of yesterday softly falling into the dark mutinous shannon waves mots de rêve divers glaçure cerise time an el e ordered name is out of joint the women come and go a kiss is just a kiss and a rose is a rose is a rose to Karkqua'ali a man without qualities shouldn't ask what he can do for his countries beauty is truth truth is beauty too many rings around rosey because happy families are all alike la musique a marche le côlon go world a lemon blossoms once upon a time the earth was without form licht mel licht liberalis countess asked: what is life names names names flaubert israeli jurassic park madame de pompadour smith and wesson rosa luxemborg mark luke john pinnochio osteoporosis taos the whore with the shitty fingernails a;exander
that is all you know on earth and all we need to know

Please bros, give me some good resources for learning how to write Latin poetry. Its all so tiresome and unintuitive.

>>22127689
You're thinking Virgil. You need to be thinking Catullus.

>>22123504
I think it is possible to only learn Syriac without learning Hebrew first. Thereare still some western aramaic languages around, s your best chance might be finding a native speaker online. My knowledge of aramaic is very basic, I know Hebrew very well, and sometimes I try to read the Talmus, it's hard but rewarding.

retarded meme for low iqs who can't learn a language the normal way

>>22128067
I have been learning Syriac for the past 5 months, I would say I am at about 70% comprehension when reading the Gospels. I have done absolutely zero listening or speaking though, which has probably hindered me a bit. And I know no Hebrew, only my native tongue, as well as a little German, and English. I expect I will be reading without a dictionary by summer's end.

I started with Thackston's grammar, memorised the pronouns and perfect verb declensions. Then I got Smith's dictionary with Kiraz's Syriac primer, which I definitely should have started with (and you should, too).

Go for it, anon! It has been an amazing experience for me, extremely fun and rewarding.

>>22127689
Read lots of Latin poetry. How much? More.
Excellent reference on the subject - David J. Califf - A Guide to Latin Meter and Verse Composition
Additional resource - The Meters of Greek and Latin Poetry - Halporn, Ostwald and Rosenmeyer

>>22128326
>Kiraz's Syriac primer
Not him, but got a pdf?

>>22128365
Just search George Kiraz / The New Syriac Primer on libgen. If you're going to be learning from the digital copy, then at least print out the strong simple verb table at the end and use it for reference. The Primer will teach you a lot, but it is only a primer. It sets you up for more serious study with different books, but it does that very, very well. And it gives small lessons using fragments of texts, which are giga comfy and are such a nice appetiser for the language. I would say that verbs are by far the hardest part of Syriac.

our guy, jules, a cuck this whole time... no wonder his kid's a psychopath retard

>>22128473
If he didnt want to fuck her because she was poor and a virgin, then the mystery man was probably gay.

>>22127998
I think I would write poetry in the same meter or whatever as Catullus. Sounds nice.

>>22128329
>Excellent reference on the subject - David J. Califf - A Guide to Latin Meter and Verse Composition
Exactly what I was looking for. gratias maximas tibi ago amice

hol up why is it
>e pluribus unum
instead of
>e multis unum

>>22128659
Because it sounds cooler

>>22128696
>13 letters
based masonic occultists

where should I go about learning Sumerian/Akkadian I don't know a whole deal about the lit I just want to autistically carve cuneiform love declarations to my new art-hoe gf I doubt such a thing as a reader even exists so I'd be content with a good textbook that enables me to compose eventually

>>22128659
Outside of comparisons, the comparative degree simply has a stronger meaning than the plain adjective.
Hic beatior illo est means "this man is happier than that man", but hic beatior est means "he is a rather happy man." So in the case of e pluribus unum, plus is just a stronger multus.

>>22128742
Second link in the OP has some resources for both Sumerian and Akkadian

>>22128742
> I just want to autistically carve cuneiform love declarations to my new art-hoe gf
Based, fuck incels.
But you might want to take a look at Hittite and Ugaritic, if you're not interested in literature (that is, Gilgamesh) anyway. They seem to be a good deal easier: Hittite is an IE language. Ugaritic is a semitic language not far from Hebrew, and uses just a basic Abjad, but one where the letters looks like cuneiform.

>>22128744
>Hic beatior illo est means "this man is happier than that man", but hic beatior est means "he is a rather happy man."
How is that relevant?

wheellocks latin reccs 5-10 min of vocab studying a day. I can't remember all those principal parts and vocab in such a small time period... am I just slow?

>>22129959
It's an example of how the comparative degree functions outside of comparisons. Just as "hic beatior est" has a stronger meaning than "hic beatus est", so does "e pluribus unum" have a stronger meaning than "e multis unum".

>>22116267
Θάλαττα! Θάλαττα!

>>22129970
I do at least 20 but maybe I'm a turbo autist. You'll remember better if you say it out loud. First verb conjugations are easy since they mostly all follow the same pattern. Learn all the irregular verbs off by heart then just keep going with it. After a while it feels pretty intuitive. It helps if you learn verbs that can be compounded with different prefixes since learning one verb gives you access to all of its different variations with their respective prefixes.

Just got this is in the mail, but it turns out my modern Greek is well above the level meant for the book. But if any of you anons want any more pics of the inside, let me know.

>>22130496

>>22128077
>he got filtered by LLPSI
you're using it wrong m8
you're supposed to do the dowling method while using it in conjunction with wheelocks

>>22128077
Even if you learn Latin the traditional way, nothing wrong with having a reader, and LLPSI isn't a bad choice.

>>22130504
Honestly I find the Dowling method stupid. While reading through Wheelock, I found that the paradigms were regular enough that reading the tables once were enough for me to memorise them.
Even irregular verbs, like esse, velle and their derivatives, follow a logic of their own. Writing the paradigms 200 times is a good way to torture yourself and lose all motivation.

>>22130510
I find it works really well. I got A+ in both of my Latin classes and Wheelock's was mostly a breeze. But you're right. I can't see my self writing out declensions for an hour a day again for a whole year, so instead I'm going to find another method for Ancient Greek.

>>22129970
Programmate 'Anki' in diem ūtor verba ad discenda, quae sīc in mentem sōla tantum saepe haerent, quam ob causam opus est haec invenīre verba in sententiīs ut ūsūs cōnstrūctiōnēsque intellegī possint. Breviter: lege plūs et ūtere flashcards.

>>22130510
I think the Dowling method of writing out paradigms is kind of silly, but I think doing a lot of drills has been really helpful for me.

Where can I read interlinear Horace with the original word order?

>>22116267
What is your favorite book/essay from Aristotle?

>>22130812
Duolingo helped me with French and German man :(

Linguist Anons I feel you might have knowledge of this.

Is there any connection between the word Finance and Fiancé/Fiancée?

>>22131168
Not a linguist, but no: finance ultimately comes from the Latin fīnis (end), fiancé from the Latin fidēs (faith).

German here do any other countries offer latin and on sometimes Greek in school?

>>22131218
Italy has Latin in many types of schools, Greek in some.

>ό του πολεμου κινδυνος δεινος ήν
Could this be both: "The danger of war was terrible" and " the dangerous war was terrible"? The "of" from the genitive seems to indicate it could be the danger OF war and the danger OF THE war?
>>22131168
Get into historical linguistics and you'll get the most autistic joy from finding cognates fren

Which book to learn Erasmian pronunciation of Greek for speakers of native Greek?

Am I a retard or does the sentence
>Agricola senex MORTEM APPROPINQUARE sentiens filios ad lectum suum convocavit
not have a verb starting that ACI construction?
i can see the infinitive and i can see the forced accusative but the verb evades me.
Did i miss the memo on participles being a valid part of this syntax? What's going on here? I get the meaning of the sentence but grammar does not seem to add up.
halp pls

>>22131402
wtf is an ACI construction?
if you will, you have not one, but two subject predicates in that agricola is both senex and sentiens, then the latter, sentiens, can of course accept an infinitive construction because it's a participle of a verb, sentio, that expresses its object this way
although it doesn't sound to me like idiomatic classical Latin

>>22131258
the first is the correct literal interpretation of course, ἦν agrees with the subject in the nominative and its predicate, πόλεμος is clearly in the genitive

>>22131402
Participles can take objects.
>sentiens mortem appropinquare
>feeling that death was approaching
>>22131442
probably from some textbook

>>22131442
>wtf is an ACI construction?
accusativus cum infinitivo
EXAMPLE: video amicum epistulam scribere
video - the ruling verb that is missing in the previous example
amicum - forced accusative that shows the second subject of the sentence
scribere - infinitive which is translated as if it was not an infinitve
>translation: "I can see (that) friend writes a letter"
>>22131455
thanks. shouldn't it be "death IS approaching" since the text uses the present infinitve?

>>22131464
>>22131442
also how do you not know what ACI is?
english has similiar stuff in its grammar.
>they want me to come
"to come" despite being an infinitive is tied with "me" and takes a meaning of a conjugated verb form

>>22131486
I just know it as "infinitive construction"

>>22131501
Ok ubderstandable
I've been thought those infinitive cunstructions have different names in latin and have some differences when translating and it's important to see which one is it. The accusative or the nominative one.
The accusative one always has the verb in active voice and always forces one of the words (which is translated as a subject) in to the accusative and the nominative one takes the passive voice and nominative is sometimes optional

>>22131402
Latin doesn't really have a fixed order or is sometimes skipping words elipse (not in this case, god i hate Tacitus and the silver latinity).
Agricola the old man feeling that death is approaching called his son's to his bed. (Translation can be improved in English not native speaker)

>>22116267
>ἐπειδὴ δὲ βοὴ πλείων τε ἐγίγνετο καὶ ἐγγύτερον καὶ οἱ ἀεὶ ἐπιόντες ἔθεον δρόμῳ ἐπὶ τοὺς ἀεὶ βοῶντας καὶ πολλῷ μείζων ἐγίγνετο ἡ βοὴ ὅσῳ δὴ πλείους ἐγίγνοντο, ἐδόκει δὴ μεῖζόν τι εἶναι τῷ Ξενοφῶντι, καὶ ἀναβὰς ἐφ᾽ ἵππον καὶ Λύκιον καὶ τοὺς ἱππέας ἀναλαβὼν παρεβοήθει: καὶ τάχα δὴ ἀκούουσι βοώντων τῶν στρατιωτῶν θάλαττα θάλαττα καὶ παρεγγυώντων.

did anyone else feel a little underwhelmed after reading the real passage?

>>22131218
I had the option to take Latin in high school. Not Greek, though. I went to public school in the US.

>>22131934
I've heard that in the states teachers often don't know the language they are teaching? Is that even true? Seems like nonsense.
And if so is it also true for latin?

>>22131877
in the context of the story and what they had been through up to that point it's kinda wholesome

>>22131877
A bit. I enjoyed the speeches most. But then one reads Xeno not for beautiful but for clear style.

>>22131939
French-American here, as in have actually lived half of my life in France and half in the US. I think I can frame this better than most.
What European horror stories about the States often miss is just how decentralized our country is, even more than Germany. This is especially true in the case of education. There is no national curriculum, there is in many cases no state curriculum, and there are sometimes not even any state guidelines.
What this means is that there are also no central standards to which to be held.
Therefore my prestigious school in New York (the best district in the country) did not produce worse students than any prestigious Parisian Lycée, and offered a good range of subjects and specializations, all from highly qualified instructors. Yes, this included Latin, and yes. No international exchange student felt terribly out of place.
Meanwhile schools in the same city, and not even a short walk away, may be run completely differently, even though New York is one of the most centralized states in the country. A good friend is now a teacher in a rough part of the city, and his school indeed had him "substitute" for the Spanish teacher for half a year after she was fired under shady circumstances. No, he does not speak Spanish.
It really is the luck of the draw. The US contains totally different worlds for different social classes in a way that civilized wealthy Europe has not, not really, in perhaps a hundred years.

how come no one ever has any resources for arabic? don't you want to be able to read primary sources from the arab world like ibn fadlan? or accounts of the plague or mongols, etc? every scrap of greek ever found has been translated ten times by now, who cares about that.

>>22131972
>wholesome
For goodness's sake, stop misusing this word.
Something that is wholesome is something that promotes good health, physical or moral. We speak of a wholesome meal or practice, not of a "wholesome scene" or "wholesome Netflix show" (an oxymoron.) "Wholesome" is not a synonym for "nice." If you study classical languages, you should understand the importance of these things. Stop letting the TikTok kids win our language.

>>22131939
Certainly wasn't true in my experience.

The US has a bad reputation for languages mostly because students are unmotivated to learn and use them, and we're only required to take a few semesters. If you actually give a shit as a student, you can learn a lot, but if you don't care, you can get by without learning much at all.

>>22131984
>every scrap of greek ever found has been translated ten times by now, who cares about that.
Immature, xenophilic worldview, unless you are Arab or Muslim yourself.
We study classical philology not to gain access to anything novel, but to understand better who we ourselves are. After that, we can indeed go wandering, and that might be very interesting indeed. We will however never feel as at home as with our own cultural forbearers. Indulge petty postmodern universalism and skip them, and you will fail to know both yourself and others, for the first step to understanding someone different is understanding yourself.

>>22131997
I'm going to use the english language as it's customary of its users not whatever fits your tastes

>>22132006
I thought the same way after taking intro to linguistics nearly ten years ago. You may grow to regret that position.

>>22132005
oh wow so you're greek?

>>22132014
I am a Westerner and therefore living in the world of the Greeks far more than the world of the Arabs.

>>22116777
Google books is full of books like that. Literally just write the title and add "latine" and you'll find almost all important greek books with a Latin translation for free.

>>22132005
>We will however never feel as at home as with our own cultural forbearers

I find the Greeks and Romans to be very weird and alien. It's part of the appeal for me to look into a completely foreign world view.

>>22116267
αγαπώ σε, θάλασσα

>>22128473

>>22132150
Of course they are alien, just as your grandparents are to some extent. You'll understand as you get older.

>>22131984
Proclus' commentary on the myth of Er still hasn't been released in English and the other parts of his Republic commentary have been translated only very recently.

>lazy roman poets constantly making up inflections to cheat at meter
>21st century NEETs diligently recording each hoax as a new "attested" form

>>22132005
Based

>>22116267
I'm getting started with Greek. What is the best material to learn pronunciation?

Compared to Latin, how much harder is Greek?

>>22133442
something like this

>>22133540
Doesn't look too disheartening, though my bilingual Romance-English background probably enabled me to absorb Latin vocabulary a lot more easily than I will Greek vocabulary.

>>22132182
What is that illustration from? LLPSI Zoomer Edition?

>>22133578
Ranieri-Ørberg edition

>>22133599
kek

>>22131981
Schools are payed for with property taxes so lower income communities get less money for their schools. In addition to this primary schools just end up feeding into secondary schools in communities of similar average income levels rather than becoming more open to diverse income groups making the income segregation follow people all through out their school life, even though policies are being pushed to curb this but not without criticism.

>>22128077
i like it bc it's a little silly

>>22123419
Well since the Tuscan dialect was chosen partially for being used by Dante to be the basis of a national language then yeah modern Italian should pretty much be fine.

>>22133641
>the old property tax thing
so how come schools in chicago and nyc spend more per student than the suburbs but have worse outcomes?

>>22133576
I'm also English - romance language bilingual, how long did it take you to learn latin(or reach the level you're at now)? And what method did you use?

>>22116267
What is the go to /clg/ method to get literate with Latin as quickly as possible? Like from 0 to reading Caesar asap for english?

>>22133442
All Westerners can start Latin with a significant amount of vocabulary already known, despite it being nowhere near as much as claimed. Greek vocabulary is almost entirely unfamiliar or used in different ways than how it comes down to modern languages (and most often by way of Latin.) This is significant.
The large medieval Latin corpus is hardly different from reading a given Romance language, albeit with case endings. This corpus should not be your target unless you are a medievalist, but provides excellent practice before or supplements to the classics, which is valuable since quantity trumps all in language learning. Post-classical Greek is certainly easier than classical Greek, but has no easy point of reference unless you are Greek yourself. This is significant.
Latin has absolutely no shortage of beginner materials in practically all styles. Ancient Greek beginner materials are sparse and mostly abysmal. This is far more significant than the other two issues combined.
If Greek is interesting enough to you for you to grapple with the difficulties I've listed above, I don't think it's harder than Latin in any other significant ways. The difficulties are exaggerated and mostly circumtantial. Good luck.

>>22133955
Well initially I fell for the Dowling method meme and learnt the declensions by writing them down over and over. Once I was done, I saw that I also had to do it for the paradigms, which was disheartening due to the sheer amount. Then someone advised me to just move on to LLPSI, so I did.
After chapter 16 of LLPSI I felt that I wasn't understanding the grammar well enough, so I started working my way through Wheelock. I did three chapters every two days, while I dedicated the other days to reading LLPSI and corresponding Colloquia Personarum and Fabulae Syrae chapters.
I wouldn't say I'm at an advanced level, since I've barely finished Wheelock last week and I'm still not done with Familia Romana, but I think I have a solid grasp on all the notions I've encountered so far, as well as the vocabulary.

>>22134018
>as quickly as possible
Why do you need to do this? Quick vacation to vatican city? Need to impress a girl (bad way btw)?
I am better at Greek so I won't answer directly. I'll simply urge patience. Latin, as all classical languages, rewards steady effort.

>>22134035
Thanks a lot for the detailed answer.

>>22134018
Half the posts in this thread are about Latin textbooks, but if you've studied a heavily inflected language such as Russian or German before, and you're reasonably smart, and you don't mind a lot of cross referencing, AND you just want to read Caesar right away, well, you can just get started right away.
https://geoffreysteadman.com/college-caesar/

>>22131464
>shouldn't it be "death IS approaching" since the text uses the present infinitve?
Sequence of Tenses, main verb is perfect
Similar in English, it would be odd to say
>sensing death is approaching, he called his sons

>>22134049
Yeah but steady effort where exactly? Like >>22134076 mentioned, there are so many textbooks that I’m spoiled for options and don’t really know where to start. I’m not really in a hurry I just don’t want to be wasting time getting to a basic level of comprehension on randomly guessing wrong from one of the hundreds of different textbooks out there. Like I’ve been fucking around on Duolingo with it for fun for a couple months but I see people saying it’s a bad option but then provide no clear answer as to what I should do instead. Like whoops I read a book that teaches the wrong dialect or whatever I guess I’m fucked. If there is one textbook or set of textbooks I should be doing to get to a basic general competency (reading Caesar relatively easily seems like a reasonable standard) what is it?

>>22134133
Get Wheelock's and LLPSI. Go through both simultaneously.
Don't ask any more questions about textbooks. Don't post ITT until you have finished the first 10 chapters of both.
If you want to learn Latin, learn Latin. How you do it is less important than doing it.
Again, do not reply.

>>22134133
Without going too much into detail, the two most popular are Wheelock (traditional grammar translation) and Lingua Latina Per Se Illustrata (induction/easy Latin reader.) I will add that no single textbook is ever sufficient in and of itself. To learn fully you must use every tool at your disposal. The flipside is that the scenario in which you're fucked because you studied the "wrong way" is pretty much impossible. It's a language, not a natural science. Everything will help in some way, except maybe Duolingo.

>>22134172
>>22134179
This to both. Just add this shit to OP post already.

O me miserum. Cur, dii immortales, rogo, modo postquam lavi me, sensus advenit cacandi? Tanta erat tempestas ut meum balneum deletae sint. Unde venisti, O diabole! Exspectavisti donec lavi mittere me ad balneum. Utinam in infero mittereris! Cum appropinquas meum interulum, quid faciam? Cum sentio equites inferi advenientes, quid sperem, nisi finem omnia? Ut deus vult, sunt qui stercus phantasma dantur. Utinam essem eos!

>>22127615
good luck

>>22128326
Which script do you work on? I know only Assyrian script (known aslo as the square Hebrew script), but I know that learning other alphabets (abjads in this case) is the easiest part of learning foreing languge. Have you ever tried learning anything Jewish? How hard are the targums for you?
Keep up your good work my fellow semitianon!

>>22128742
I did exactly the same (writing cuneiform tablet for people, not art-hoe gf). I don't have my old photoes on the computer, but I've posted some few months ago, there are no textbooks that focus on Akkadian cuneiform, but I recommend you start from this. http://oracc.museum.upenn.edu/saao/knpp/cuneiformrevealed/learningsigns/index.html
Don't write them: buy yourself some plasticine and try writing on them, then when you feel you are good enough try writing her an amulet with her zodiac sign (is she into asrology?) or her name or something creative, like a passage from babylonian love poetry.

Medieval Latin is pretty comfy

>>22123464
You are correct, we do in fact study the divine comedy throughout elementary, middle and high school

>>22123419
Italian here, as other años already suggested you, latin is not necessary for reading the Divine Comedy. I imagine there will be some italian-to-English editions with annotations and comment you can purchase to start from. Just learn modern italian as a base, then just search for the archaic terms online. A good source for that is the Treccani online italian dictionary.

>>22135188
anons*
I have spanish options on my keyboard for whatever reason lmao

>r/sumnefoedus
>t. gaius

>>22135311
>>r/sumnefoedus
hahahae

'equos' ac 'servos' atque 'o filie nigere' scribo ut magister meus Livius

>>22134862
I have learned Estrangela and West Syriac, but I write in a weird way to distinguish similar letters because I'm a pleb. I briefly looked into the Hebrew alphabet but I'm totally focused on the Syriac language for now. It is already difficult enough for me! If I get decent, then I might branch out... The targum (I assume you mean Bible translations) aka the Peshitta is very cool, I am noticing the distinct structures in the language in the other translations I hear in everyday life, de-translating in my head a little bit when in church etc. I started with some poetry, which was a mistake - it is verb heavy and light on pronouns, leaving a lot to inference. I only have the NT physically, and it is very easy to understand, mostly because I know it well :)

You keep up the good work, too! What is your mother tongue? I have noticed that many people stay within the semitic family. What kind of things are written in Assyrian script, what can you do with it?

>>22132182
>non tantus vir est ille
is he an eunuch or something?

I'm so confused by the third Eclogue of Virgil, it sounds like an ancient rap battle with obscure references, I have no idea what's going on

>>22135889
are ya using your dictionary, son

>>22136023
oh yeah, it just seemed all over the place with the disconnected verses recited by the two

>tfw learning latin and greek feels like a race to be competitive enough to get into grad school, and in a dying field to boot
Just choose math or physics, anons

>>22136820
I already did, anon. Greek is my hobby. That's sad for you and I sometimes wish I could have been a philologist of some sort a hundred some years ago, but we have to move with the times.

>>22136820
I did, and defended my thesis almost ten years ago. Latin and Greek are a hobby and academia is a terrible career path.

>>22135850
>The targum (I assume you mean Bible translations) aka the Peshitta is very cool,
I think anon is referring exclusively to the Jewish Aramaic targums. Since you don't seem familiar and don't want to be distracted from Syriac, all I'll say is that they are some whacky and fascinating translations.

>>22136820
FUCK math and FUCK physics, FUCK chemistry, FUCK economy, FUCK engineering, and STEM in general. I will die poor and homeless if that will be necessary to keep deepening my knowledge in the literary and humanities fields.

I've been studying ancient languages for years now, and I've been interested in writing in historically accurate ways. I was listening to an interview, and one of the people said a fake was spotted by a palaeographer because the faker used a brush instead of a reed stylus for a Coptic manuscript. I'd like to become decently competent and familiar with historical writing techniques all the way up to quill and ink writing, like that of America's Founding Fathers. Any book recommendations for this?

What's a based Latin pronunciation that is not the usual reconstructed/ecclesiastical shit?

I remember stumbling upon a pdf that explained how krauta pronounced Latin in the XIX century. Do you know any "weird" pronunciations?

>>22137619
I pick a different pronounciation for each word and the only criteria is whether it sounds cool or not

Sometimes I pronounce v's as v's and not w's
Sometimes I pronounce c's as k's or ch's
I don't give a fuck, I need to sound like I'm summing a demon at all times!

>>22137387
Nemo umquam basatior erit te.
Basatissimus es.

>>22137619
> a based Latin pronunciation that is not the usual reconstructed/ecclesiastical
The Historically Inaccurate Late Latin Fanfiction Phonological Convention That I Just Made Up ©
>vowel length ignored in favor of stress (Ecclesiastical)
>diphthongs pronounced whole (Classical)
>"V,u" pronounced as English "v" not "w" (Ecclesiastical)
>"C,c" & "G,g" remain hard (Classical)
>"ti" is pronounced "zi"e.g., "natione" = "nazione" (Ecclesiastical)
>"sc" is pronounced "sk" (Classical)
>"th" & "ph" are pronounced as spelled (Ecclesiastical)
>"y" is pronounced like the Greek letter (Classical)
>"h" is silent (Romance Languages)

All that matters is that you enjoy it. If you want to talk to people, as long as you are using elements from either popular convention you will be understood. If you were to pronounce your "v" as "w" and "sc" as "sh" I wouldn't be confused. I know exactly what letter makes the "w" sound in classical and the "sh" in Ecclesiastical so it doesn't matter if you mix and match as long as you aren't making up sounds like pronouncing "v" as a "b" which may be confusing unless the person is a Spanish speaker.

>>22135885
No, it just means "he's not so great a man", comparing him to Caesar.

Amici
Hodie examen de lingua latina in universitas habeo. Gratias ago pro auxilio tuo. Fortunam me velitis.

>>22134113
A shit I did an ESL thing again.

>>22137854
bona fortuna amice

>>22137475
An Introduction to Greek and Latin Palaeography by Thompson
Latin Palaeography by Bischoff
Writing, Illuminating and Lettering by Johnston
Essentially you should study palaeography. Most of it is focused on scripts.To get good at identifying them you need to view lots and lots of manuscripts. If those aren't readily available you need books with lots of hi-def images. you can also make use of various online resources, for instance Oxford digitizes lots of manuscripts as do many other institutions.
If you want more books on palaeography I can type up a list, I have an interest in the subject as well and have obtained many throughout the past few years. Avoid print-on-demand as they are usually low quality. Buy used.

>>22137854
>>22137905
Consummatum est. Haha.
Debebam ex latinam ad lingua polonorum translatare fabulam de Marco Regulo Attilo et captivis carthagenorum. cogito me non vincisse.

>>22137319
Exactly, I've ment Jewish Targums, particularly Targum Onkelos of the Torah. They are very interesting for the scholars of Judaism, if you are interested only in Christianity you don't have to read them at all, but if you want to read the most "canonical" translation of the OT into another language, the Targums are the best, because they translate literaly the meaning, sometimes changing things in order to suit early Jewish theology (removing words that claim God has body like God's hand).
>>22135850
My mother tongue is Polish, I love Semitic languages, I also learn Arabic, and I have a decent knowledge of Akkadian. It's good that you start to notice the structure of the language. Are you a Syriac Christian?
As to Assyrian script, nearly everything in Hebrew is printed right now in the Assyrian script, ספר יצירה. Only a small portion of modern and medieval Jewish texts used so called Rashi (maybe 1/3?) script, that evolved from sephardi cursive, and a very tiny percentage uses Samaritan script, which is based on paleo-hebrew script.

>>22137619
Pronunciation used in my cunt:
>'v' pronounced normally
>'c' pronounced 'ts' when followed by 'i/e/ae/oe' othervise as 'k'
>'q' pronounced 'kv'
>'ngu' pronounced 'ngv'
>'g' always 'g'
>'ti' + vowel pronounced as 'tsi'
>'s' between vowels or after 'r/l/n' pronounced 'z'
>vowel length kept
>'h' always pronounced

>>22139043
also, 'ti' is always pronounced as 'ti' if accented.

What is the difference between modern greek and ancient greek in terms of words?
I know the pronounciation and grammar are different, but how much do the words themselves change? Is it similar to Italian and Latin where the words may be similar but are for the most part basically different languages?

>>22139262
and here is my question in latin, because it's always good to practice more latin

Quid est differentia inter linguam graecam novam et graecam antiqua verba secundum
Elocutio grammaticaque differentia est scio sed quomodo verba ipsi mutat?
Estne ut Italia et Latina quo illae verba similis sed necessario differentia lingua?

>>22138449
Thank you. I have read some manuscripts, which are a big interest of mine, and I am interested in palaeography. I digitized the one palaeography book for Ge'ez but haven't looked at it again; I hope it turned out well. I would appreciate a complete list of the books on palaeography that you can remember. It might be worthwhile to save the list itself to the MEGA.
>>22139026
> if you want to read the most "canonical" translation of the OT into another language
I don't want to start a shit flinging contest, and I see that you put canonical in quotes. I just wanted to say that the Septuagint was translated first, and according to myth, a rabbi per book translated the Bible in one night, and then, the next night, rabbis would translate a different book from their first one, which was used to confirm the perfectness of the first translation.
>My mother tongue is Polish, I love Semitic languages, I also learn Arabic, and I have a decent knowledge of Akkadian
I remember you. You were making your own clay tablets in the fall (autumn) of 2021, weren't you? Then you disappeared from the thread. I'm glad you're back.

>>22139043
Germany, I suppose?
Apparently they are now having a "Schulaussprache" where they are super strict about c always being pronounced as /k/ but everything else basically as in German lol so Caesar is "Käsar" which is quite retarded, either make it "Cäsar" or "Kaisar"...

>>22139394
That was me, but I frequent this thread sometimes. I'm glad that someone remembers my tablets. I might post more I've done in those months.
I've ment canonical only from the Jewish perspective,
>>22137475
I've recently started learning traditional Jewish writing, not the sopher stam shit, but I try to imitate medieval scribes. Any ideas for a text to copy first? I want to write something short (I was thinking about sefer yetzira) and outside of the biblical canon. I've even bought papyri.

>>22139425
No, Czechia. Also, 'ae/oe' are pronounced as long 'e'.
So Caesar is pronounced 'Cēzar'.

>>22139917
Both posts you replied to are me. You were the easiest person to remember from the early days of /clg/. Do post more pictures of your tablets. For a long time it seems, I was the only one posting about Semitic languages; I remember bringing you up during the darkest days of Wheelock - LLPSI shit flinging. I'm a bit perplexed by your identity. You are both a native Polish speaker and seem to be Jewish. Are you one of the few Jews in Poland, or are you an Israeli (or American) who learned Polish from your parents?
You would know better than I what to copy. It might be fun to copy some Ketuvim (for the pun). I think Psalm books were the number one biblical book that people would carry around, but Psalms is long.
What are you trying to go for with papyrus? Who would have used papyrus in the Middle Ages? I don't think anyone was using it. Also, keep in mind that a Torah must be written as a scroll. I'm not Jewish, and I don't know if this rule was universally followed, but it's a rule, so keep it in mind. If you bought parchment pages and wanted to make a scroll, it would be relatively easy to sew. I don't think that would be the case for papyrus. I'm not opposed to using papyrus and would like to write on it myself. Would you mind sharing the name of your supplier or a supplier available to Americans?
Please keep us updated on your historical writing experiments.

>>22139289
haud prosum dictu, certe et italicam et graecam docti ex ambobus populis augerunt verbis priscis ex antiquis sermonibus promptis ne tam vulgares essent linguae novarum nationum nuper conditae
scio enim ut nonnulli ducunt graecos exempli gratia periotiores esse sacras scripturas graece(koine) conversas intellegere quam italicos latine conversas, etsi ambo grammatica humili scriptas; non proferam sententiam utrum ob grammaticam hoc fiat necne, fortasse minime

>>22140517
benedictus tibi ob responsum, latina tuae melior quam mei sed summa scio de scribas. Edepol.
puto nunc modo procedo legens Reading Greek et Athenaze et in futuro differentiae manifestum erit

>>22140665
εὖγε, bene tibi opto anonyme

>>22139394
Palaeography and General Manuscript Info:
Introduction to Manuscript Studies - Clemens and Graham
An Introduction to Greek and Latin Palaeography - Thompson
Latin Palaeography - Bischoff
A Guide to Western Historical Scripts from Antiquity to 1600 - Brown
Palaeography of Gothic Manuscript Books - Derolez
A History of Illuminated Manuscripts - De Hamel
Latin Bookhands of the Later Middle Ages - Thomson
Manuscripts of the Greek Bible - An Introduction to Greek Palaeography - Metzger
The Oxfrod Handbook of Latin Palaeography
The Book Before Printing - Diringer
The Illuminated Book - Diringer
The Alphabet - Diringer
Lexicon Abbreviaturarum - Cappelli
Elements of Abbreviation in Medieval Latin Paleography (condensed Cappelli)

Calligraphy of Ancient and Medieval Times:
Writing & Illuminating, & Lettering - Edward Johnston
Medieval Calligraphy - Drogin
Foundations of Calligraphy - Waters
Calligraphy - A Complete Guide - Chazal
The Art of Calligraphy - Harris

For Fun:
Scribes and Scholars - A Guide to the Transmission of Greek and Latin Literature - Reynolds & Wilson
Meetings with Remarkable Manuscripts - De Hamel
Manuscripts and Libraries in the Age of Charlemagne - Bischoff, Gorman

My focus is on Latin and a touch of Greek as you can clearly see, though several of the above will be useful for any language.
Intro to Manuscript Studies is highly recommended. Sort of a textbook format but very detailed and informative.
De Hamel and Thomson's are very large, essentially reference works. I have both and they are ex-library.
Scribes and Scholars is an easy and pleasant read. The focus is on how works have been passed down and copied throughout the ages and less on palaeographic details.
Cappelli is huge and for serious Latin Palaeographers. The Elements version is much more concise.
Diringer's books, especially Before Printing, have lots of information on book production
To really get scripts some calligraphy helps so I included those as well. Johnston's is a must read even if you don't do calligraphy; he really gets into the fine details of how old books were written.

>>22141557
One more sperg post
When possible always go for printed over digital books when it comes to palaeography. Digital is better than nothing but seeing the scripts as clearly as possible is important to get the details. Best of all is viewing actual manuscripts themselves but that is not an option most of the time. A scanned page of a book with a printed picture of another page often ends up murky and unclear. Sometimes this makes a huge difference, especially when looking for details of ductus, stroke, hairlines, ligatures etc. Make use of whatever is available, I have some digital-only books too, but go for printed works as often as possible. Abebooks has lots of palaeography books at low prices, the benefits of being a niche discipline about books.

>>22139262
They are different langs, but all classicists ought to know modern greek

>>22140450
I'm not Jewish, I'm looking for my religion, now I'm getting closer to orthodox Christianity (that's why I've started to learn Church Slavonic). I've lived in Israel for almoast a year, but I've learned Hebrew before going there (I've only improved it there).
I know that papyrus was not very popular in the middle ages in Europe, but I want to use it, because it's cheaper than parchment, and looks cooler than normal paper. I don't want to write any part of the Bible, so I will probably start with some kabbalistic writing.

LATINANONS START FROM HERE!!!
https://www.der-roemer-shop.de/Home
I've ordered papyrus from this site (and also quill and a reed pen), you can buy all sorts of stuff there, even scrolls with printed Ceasars Bellum Galicum. I know it's located in Europe,but the ship to USA. If anyone knows any other shops that sell historical writing materials I'd be very curious to look at it. Their papyrus is very cheap, and it's fair trade!

This is my writing rn. Now I want to learn to imitate suez one font.

This is the zodiac amulet I've mentioned.

This tablet contains mass produced text that was used to protect people from war. It is a quote from the poem of Erra.

>>22142130
>>22142139
Are you guy simping for that arthoe?

>>22142224
I reckon he's the latter anon.
>I just want to autistically carve cuneiform love declarations to my new art-hoe gf
>I did exactly the same (writing cuneiform tablet for people, not art-hoe gf).

bvmpvs

The more I learn Latin, the less logical English seems in comparison

>Iūlius Aemiliam amat, quia ea pulchra et bona fēmina est. Aemilia Iūlium virum suum amat et cum eō habitat.

What does the second sentence mean, exactly?

I would understand it if it were
>Aemilia Iūlium amat et cum eō habitat
or
>Aemilia virum suum amat et cum eō habitat
or perhaps
>Aemilia Iūlius, virum suum, amat et cum eō habitat.

But what does it mean when she loves "Iūlium virum suum"?

>>22144154
it's just a predicate of the object of amat
it is the same as
>Aemilia *Iūlium, virum suum, amat et cum eō habitat.
without the commas
of course Iūlium goes in the accusative too

>>22123419
>Do I just learn Italian and then work backwards?

If one is interested in learning both Italian and Latin, is it a viable strategy to start with modern Italian and then "go backwards" not just to Dante, but to Latin? So:
Modern Italian books -> older Italian books -> Dante -> newer Latin/Vulgata or whatever -> Classical Latin

Similar:
Modern Greek -> somewhat older Greek -> Koine -> Attic/Ionic -> Homer

Any experiences with doing that? At least for Greek it seems sensible, as one needs to learn the various ancient dialects separately anyway, might as well start with modern right? Also, it would then seem obvious to keep using the modern pronunciations as one goes backwards, as one would basically view them as one continuous language...

>>22144154
>Iūlium virum suum
is an appositive which is normally offset by commas in English
>Emily loves Julius, her husband, and lives with him.

>>22144268
Also, for those into other ancient languages, would it be a viable strategy there? Are there continuous traditions for Arabic, Hebrew, Chinese etc.?

how do you guys write your greek verb paradigms? i'm trying to use a single table that is easy to write out from memory and makes sense geometrically

>>22144132
>septem
>decem
>septen-decim
>logical

>>22144270
>>22144270
Oh yeah, the first sentence has accusative for Aemilia, I didn't catch that.

Would it be incorrect to have the commas? Should you read it as if it had commas, if reading out loud?

>>22139262
Modern Greek has a drastically simplified case system (when written; colloquial Modern Greek has regained the dative case in imitation of Homer), far more periphrasis, a simplified verb system, and no participles. It's overall far more analytic. It has large amounts of vocabulary from Turkish, Arabic, Italian, Latin, French, German, and English. It was also subjected to christfag ideological-degradation so there's a number of words that originally meant something positive but now mean something bad because Christianity is an inversion of morality and virtue. The most striking example is "ichor" originally referring to the blood of an Olympian but now referring to filth or pus. There's other lesser examples, like words for "bravery" meaning "stupidity" and what now.

There are a bunch of posts about Cormac McCarthy dying. Meanwhile, all of the classical authors are long since dead. This is not to demean McCarthy or his fans; it's just a thought.

>>22144275
In the vast majority of cases, it is not worthwhile to learn one language to learn another. Knowing a related language is simply a small bonus in learning another.
There are continuous traditions for all the languages you mentioned. Languages like Hebrew and Latin have not always been spoken/living languages, but they have been continuously used and understood. To find a really dead language, you need to look to languages like Akkadian, Sumerian, Elamite, Eblaite, etc--languages that people rediscovered through archaeology.

>>22144268
> Modern Italian books -> older Italian books -> Dante -> newer Latin/Vulgata or whatever -> Classical Latin
I wouldn't recommend it. There's a giant gap between even just medieval Latin and Dante: In fact, with him, you can witness the gap between the languages in one single author.
Also see >>22125249 and >>22125790: Modern and Dante's Italian are closer than some of the works in the centuries in between (good news if you want to read Dante).
If you're learning Latin and Italian, one will help with the other, but they're still separate languages and should be treated as such.
Someone else will have to answer the question about Greek.

>>22144275
Hebrew is similar to Italian in that regard: Biblical and Modern Hebrew are close, it's the stuff in between that's weird. If you skip that, then going chronologically might work out, but of course that's not continuous in any sense.
Arabic is cheating: there's little difference between Classical and MSA, but no one speaks that natively, so...
Chinese also has a big gap 100 years ago, when suddenly everyone was switching to the vernacular. There were vernacular works before, which you might work you way to from Modern Chinese, but the transition to Classical won't be gentle.

>>22144528
>paganfag must take every opportunity to seethe about christianity

>>22144564
a dumb thought

Is Japanese worth learning? I'm torn between learning Japanese or learning Classical Chinese. On one hand I love modern Japanese culture, but I don't particularly enjoy their literature, neither the modern nor the ancient one. Chinese literature, philosophy and history on the other hand is extremely fascinating to me, but I don't care about modern China at all and I don't know much about modern Chinese literature. Which one would you choose in this situation?

>>22145696
It's unironically harder than Latin. I've done years of Japanese and while I've reached conversational level, in terms of reading I'm still not at a level where I can enjoy any of their more interesting works of literature, like Tsurezuregusa.
As for which of Japanese and Classical Chinese is more worthwhile, I'd say that while traditional Japanese culture is refined and fascinating, it's still an offshoot of medieval Chinese culture, albeit with some native elements. You will certainly derive more from learning Classical Chinese or any other classical language, since those have bodies of literature spanning over several millennia.

>reading a children's retelling of the odyssey in modern greek
it feels like i already made it

>finally start doing greek
>it's easy
>all the people meming that it's hard are just retarded
>only stalled learning because they told me it would be hard
>could have been reading greek all this time

>>22145953
How far are you?

>>22140074
No such country as Czechia. We call it the Czech Republic in English.

>>22145953
HOW FAR ARE YOU

>>22146463
>The Czech government directed use of Czechia as the official English short name in 2016.

>>22146487
That's not for the Czech government to decide. English speaking Chads just ignored it. Even the Czech PM was unaware that the name changed and said he didn't like it.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/oct/25/nobody-calls-it-czechia-czech-republic-new-fails-catch-on
https://www.euronews.com/2020/10/05/the-czech-republic-is-still-officially-called-czechia-why-hasn-t-it-caught-on

Only contrarians say Czechia.

>>22145696
Japanese-American anon here. Modern Japanese culture is stunted and stultifying and most young Japanese are even more braindead than young Americans. I have my ancestral koseki and could obtain permanent residence, but I have no desire to do so. I put French on my resume but rarely Japanese. The only modern Japanese writers I've enjoyed past childhood are Mishima and Oe. The rest is schlock.
That said,
If Japanese culture is what draws you in, by all means learn it. Japanese people also learn to read Classical Chinese in school: it's a system called kanbun, and while it's rather complicated at first, it should be perfectly achievable should you stick through with learning Japanese. Then, if you want tones and rhymes for the purposes of poetry (Japanese does neither), it'll be fairly easy to learn Mando or (preferably) Canto pronunciations on top of the characters you already know. Plus Classical Japanese is quite nice to read. But at that point you might as well learn calligraphy, painting, and Go, too.

>>22146487
At least u don't call it Czechoslovakia anymore.

>>22145696
Let me amend this by saying that your biggest hurdle for at least a full year will be kanji. Therefore, if you are interested in Classical Chinese, you can and should study it simultaneously with Japanese. Rouzer's textbook facilitates this by including Japanese readings of all characters; Van Norden's is better for absolue beginners but you will have to supply your own Japanese readings (which will be good practice using dictionaries.) This will put you way ahead of the pack as far as some of the more literary elements of Modern Japanese go

Bros, how long would it take me to get a decent foothold in Latin if I put in like an hour of study a day? For some context, I speak Spanish and French (the former natively, the latter I've been studying for 6 years or so) and I studied German in high school, so I'm familiar with how case systems work.

>tredecim
>_quat-tuor-decim_
>quindecim
there's no way even cicero didn't say "quatdecim"

>>22147368
hard to say, each has their own learning rate and "decent foothold" can mean many things, there's variation in the difficulty of various authors and the standard of "reading" you are willing to accept
but I'd say in around a year you should be able to definitely appreciate some literature

>>22147368
104 days with the right material.

Does servōs in this context mean "as slaves"? Is this a feature or vēndere or of the accusative?

How should one translate a Latin periphrastic in the subjunctive?
I know that "faciendum est" translates as "it ought to be done". But in Wheelock's I came across "faciendum sit". Would the correct translation be "it may have to be done"?

>>22147368
Do the Dowling method + wheelocks. You will know the fundamentals in a year or two if you start now.

>>22147990
yes
it's this https://dcc.dickinson.edu/grammar/latin/double-accusatives
predicative in this case, so "as" works well

>>22147991
I don't like to think about these in terms of single translation since the subjunctive can be used in different constructions
e.g rogat me num hoc faciendum sit, the subjunctive here is required since the question is indirect, but in english you'd still translate it as "ought to be done" i.e "he asks me whether this ought to be done"
or consider a concessive situation like: sit licet faciendum; at quomodo?(assume it ought to be done; but how?)
you should be aware of the context the subjunctive is being used in

>>22148455
Thanks.
The quotation in question was “Plus novisti quid faciendum sit.”
I assumed it translated to “You knew more what ought to be done” but I wasn’t sure if the subjunctive required a different translation.

>Hic pondus nugis addere voluisti, vana enim nulliusque ponderis in hac interrogatione consideratio tua.
Any ideas?

>>22148611
it's kinda hard to translate in english due to the peculiar idiomatic meaning pondus and nugae have in Latin, but I guess something like you wished to add this much upon so little, since in fact in this argumentation your own opinion is empty and of no value
"nugae" in Latin generally means something of little importance, frivolity, or in common speech, empty talk, blabbering, whereas pondus would be something important
the genitive "nullius ponderis" is a genitive of measure/extimation

>>22148034
Thanks anon

>>22144528
>there's a number of words that originally meant something positive but now mean something bad because Christianity is an inversion of morality and virtue. The most striking example is "ichor" originally referring to the blood of an Olympian but now referring to filth or pus. There's other lesser examples, like words for "bravery" meaning "stupidity" and what now.
I wonder how longer it takes to make something like this stick. How many years does it take to change a word's definition for ideological purposes before people go back to using it the right way?

>>22148688
Cheers anon, that helped. I'm trying to motivate myself to read Latin by just reading the weirdest niche thing I can find and not caring about progress or speed.

>>22149180
np friend
just realized also "pondus nugis addere" is an expression used by Horace, less literally would be something like giving importance to trifles

gave me a headache tbqh

Is the Cambridge Latin Course good for self-learning or am I wasting my time?

>>22139026
I'm not Syriac at all, I'm from a nation a bit North of Poland, I don't want to be any more specific... I'm just interested in Syriac. Thank you for all the advice. I'm mainly building vocabulary now.

>>22150603
you'll never learn latin from a stuffy book. you need to meet and practice speaking to actual romans

>>22150890
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYYpTfx1ey8

Hey /clg/ I am taking an intensive intro Greek course online over the summer. We are using the textbook from Alpha to Omega, and moving at a pace of a chapter a day. Feeling like 5 hours of study a day still isn't enough, even though I am doing fine in terms of quizzes and exams. Feels like I have to rely on the textbook a lot to look up forms from ten chapters ago, what do? I've been trying to do all the in-book exercises, but it's tough to internalize everything.

>>22151730
godspeed. had a similar experience where i was studying greek 5-10 hours every day. even on my downtime i used to write out declinations and conjugations over and over again while watching goyslop.

>>22151730
Intensive courses are just that - intensive. It takes a long time for forms to sink in and intensive courses don't offer that time.
Continue doing all the exercises in the book. Supplement with a Greek text, something you're interested in. Don't worry about total comprehension, focus on spotting what you know.
Get a Greek reader and read that on the side. Athenaze is great for this. Both English and Italian Athenaze are in the Mega. Going through that alongisde your textbook will be refreshing and help to internalize.
Keep studying hard. Don't get discouraged. Don't give up. Expedited courses are quite difficult but you will be alright, just stay on top of your lessons.
Having said all that, that was my introductory textbook as well. It is not the greatest. Pay attention to everything, even the footnotes. Groton likes to hide essential information as an afterthought.

>>22151749
>while watching goyslop.
Don't do this. Either focus your attention on your studies or set them momentarily aside and let your brain ferment. Half-assing is a waste of time.

>>22151775
writing οἶδα οἶδας οἶδε ἴσμεν ἴστε ἴσασιν a hundred time with a laser focus is a sure way to achieve a burnout in a few weeks. also, like i said that wasn't part of my actual study time.

>>22151749
>>22151768
>>22151775
Thanks anons. Glad that Athenaze is in the Mega, I've been looking for that for a while. Glad I'm not alone in this experience

>>22150595
Is it
>animus fert dicere formas in nova corpora

>>22150595
I love it when I recognize every word, but have no idea what the whole sentence means. I'm never gonna make it.

>>22152239
>can translate a sentence as I read it
>Struggle to write it
and of course who could forget
>Forget 70% of vocab just after reading it and constantly have to go back and check what you just read in future passages along with grammar.
I want to bash my head against the wall

HIC HAEC HOC
HIC HAEC HOC
HIC HAEC HOC
READY FOR MY LATIN TEST
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vpv8vaq583w

>>22152390
Take a haec kid

>>22151730
Drill paradigms, I'm telling you they help. Start with a single tense or even something smaller.

There's a lot of little subtle things your brain isn't going to pick up on at this phase, and I don't mean about the Greek language itself (that's true too though), I mean about how reading and translating Greek actually works most of the time. For example it's natural for any person to be faced with all this memorization and assume, okay, I'm supposed to memorize that. Now this person unconsciously assumes that NOT having it ready to hand at the drop of a hat means he "failed" to memorize it. But it's a lot less binary than this. On a related note, any reasonable person is going to assume that "learning Greek" or "learning Greek to the point that I can read it and enjoy doing so" is also a binary switch, and you will go from Not Knowing Greek to Knowing Greek after X amount of classes or courses.

But none of this is the case. What's really happening here is that you are getting focused immersion and practice, and your brain is making a billion unconscious connections for every one you are conscious of. This is an exponential process and one of the worst parts of it is that it feels insanely unsatisfying and discouraging for a long time, and then suddenly you just seem to know stuff without having to look it up. But it would have been really nice to know you were gonna hit that milestone prior to hitting it, as the feeling most people have prior to hitting it is awful. It feels like you're an idiot with every sentence you try to read, every word or form you "have to" look up. You're the guy who "still has to" look these things up, even though they were ten chapters ago.

Look at it more like you're painting a surface that needs multiple coats. Do you pay attention to each and every little spotty bit of coverage as you apply the paint? No, and the more you do that the more spottiness you're going to notice in other places. You should instead just consign yourself to the fact that it's all going to be smoothed out on the second or third coat and look great. Trying to keep track of the individual decisions to re-do a spot is going to discourage you, and conversely, just letting go and enjoying the rhythm of the roller covering the wall in coat #3, and seeing it AS A WHOLE get closer to perfect coverage, is good for motivation.

You just have to keep reminding your instinctive, normal assumptions and instincts that they're simply wrong. Try to catch your own negative thought as it comes in to punish you for forgetting "this word AGAIN? ugh I JUST looked it up too!" Focus on the fun satisfying things instead, like the fact that you worked through a whole paragraph or page.

>>22152428
The single best way to learn a language is by doing what you're doing, and on top of that Greek is brutally difficult by modern linguistic standards, because you're reading high level intellectuals trying to impress one another. It's basically like learning math. You don't get good at math by memorizing every little rule either, you get good by doing problems until your eyes bleed and your brain smooths out your knowledge in the long run. And guess what, you will still always be looking shit up, you will still run across bizarre rare terms and forms, you will still have little things that somehow your brain just can't internalize after 20 years of doing something, just like even native speakers of their own languages have little dumb things they look up now and then (they just don't tell anyone when they do it).

One of the best cheat codes to learning a language well with this method is reading something you care about, like you actually want to know what it says or what happens next, because this tricks your brain into going from thinking "I am learning Greek. I am learning Greek. I am supposed to know this word, this form." which creates expectation structures that can then be disappointed by every snag, to thinking "WHAT HAPPENS NEXT? FUCK THIS SNAG SLOWING ME DOWN I HAVE TO FIGURE THIS OUT SO I CAN GET BACK TO THE STORY GOD DAMNIT XENOPHON," which is a different kind of frustration that actually motivates you. Unfortunately the problem with textbook learning is usually that it gives you little constructed sentences and cutesy stories that aren't very satisfying to read, they don't make you feel "I HAVE to take this thing apart so I can know what the deal is!"

That's why it's good to start reading actual Greek, something easy like Xenophon's Anabasis, in addition to any class/textbook stuff you have to do. This teaches you to demote the textbook to "shit I have to do" as opposed to seeing the feeling you have while working on textbooks and assignments as simply "Greek."

The best feeling in the world is when you're done enough of the class and textbook that you're really on your own. Then you realize, guess what, "fuck me I don't know any of this really, how is this possible when I passed the big exam on all of it?" But then instead of feeling frustration you feel freedom, because now you're reading real things, and not knowing X or Y form just means... looking it up. So what? Look it up and keep reading. So there's a form you forget every single time. So you're fuzzy on some thing or another. So what? You'll get less and less fuzzy and be fuzzy on fewer and fewer things.

Rote memorization and paradigm drilling will help, but other than that just override the discouraging feelings with positive ones. Instead of thinking, I'm fucking stupid for forgetting this again, just be interested in it and try to look for patterns. Take pride in how far you've come instead of being sad you aren't at the end yet. There is no real end.

>>22152428
>>22152431
Anon, thank you for this. It's like you read my mind exactly. Optimism makes sense in a situation like this. I think the feeling of "being behind" is another way the negativity can creep in, regardless of whether it is true or not. It can discourage me from taking the time to do the rote stuff and just jump straight into the practice sentences. Thank you for the encouragement

>>22139262
Depends how ancient we are talking about. Biblical Greek is 99.99% same as modern Greek plus the dative case. The further you go back however the syntax and grammar become more convoluted but most words remain quite familiar. I struggle to read the original text of Iliad but with enough effort I can understand some sentences.

Also something funny about modern Greek. When we want to say a simple word like water we use the modern version "νερο". But when we want to say a compound word like Υδραυλικός we use the ancient version "Υδωρ" +" Αυλικός" (plumber)

"Mutatis mutandis" means "[with] the changes that are to be made, [being] made". So how do you say, "the changes that are (were?) to be made, [are] made"?

Would "Mutandis mutatus est" be correct?
>>22144528
How old is modern greek? What happened in the 1960s with the language reform?

>>22152679
no
mutatis is already perfect in its aspect, it's done, and the ablative absolute itself goes along with it, it communicates something being already perfected/done
so "mutandis" if you will even in the original phrase is "what needed to be changed"
no sure what nuance you'd like to express differently though

>>22152730
In English, at least, "mutatis mutandis" is used in the conditional - "yeah that looks good, mutatis mutandis".

How would you express "the necessary changes have been made"? Would that also just be "mutatis mutandis", then?

based or cringe?

Doing LLPSI cap. V. Should I try to learn the grammar "manually" such that I can do the exercises, or just keep going and try to read enough text to get some kind of "intuitive" understanding of "what sounds right"?

>>22152735
idiomatically, mutatis mutandis would work, sure, it's more of an idiomatic phrase than the only avenue to express the idea
the point is, the ablative absolute if you will represents a state of things, so you have either a present participle representing a continued aspect or the perfect representing a perfected action
you don't necessarily have to use such construct of course, e.g quae mutanda erant mutata sunt

new
>>22152794
>>22152794
>>22152794

>>22152746
I see you are trying to put a little more effort into your bait since people stopped responding to the relatively low effort posts you've been making over the past few weeks.

>Doing LLPSI cap. V. Should I try to learn the grammar "manually" such that I can do the exercises, or just keep going and try to read enough text to get some kind of "intuitive" understanding of "what sounds right"?
Sure I'll bite and pretend you're not a schizo shitposter like the Alamo guy on /his/.

Buy a course by one of the following authors: Moreland & Fleischer, Sidwell & Jones, Wheelock, Gwynne, Collar & Daniell, or D'ooge. Read 1/4-1/3 of the text doing all the exercises then come back to LLPSI and read it simultaneously from there. You can ignore the FR exercises because they test whether or not you paid attention to the plot more than than whether or not you understand what a supine is or how deponent verbs work etc. Don't reply to me because I don't want to talk to you.

>>22152809
You are confusing me with someone else. I am this anon:
>>22116708