/lit/ - Literature

>>22105750
the top and bottom ones are not mental illness
just because it's unusual to you doesn't mean it's mentally ill

>>22105753
how can you not see that Augustine's schizoautistic obsession with sin is fucked up? the man singlehandedly convinced every citizen of europe for hundreds of years that they were born so irredeemably evil only divine intervention could possibly redeem them. and he only had some poorly translated bible verse to really support his idea, so why was he so hostile to pelagius?

>>22105755
>the man singlehandedly convinced every citizen of europe for hundreds of years
so whos the mentally ill one again? I think you're just an intellectually immature brainlet that can't possibly comprehend people having a different worldview than yourself.
Most of that shit you just typed is irrelevant.

>>22105765
why do you people always say this different worldview shit? I've comprehended every worldview.

>>22105755
>they were born so irredeemably evil only divine intervention could possibly redeem them
this is true though?

>>22105770
>proves anon's point

>>22105770
>I've comprehended every worldview.
It's one thing to be a fool, its another to be a fool arrogantly.

>>22105774
how is that true?
>>22105777
>>22105778
you're all more arrogant than me

>>22105774
Snopes would say it's Mixed.

>>22105780
>you're all more arrogant than me
Kek, what an arrogant think go say.

>>22105780
The reason you are arrogant is because you're making broad and fringe assumptions about historical figure.
You can say I did the same to you, but then you went and proved me right
>how is that true?
children will lie if they aren't taught to tell the truth.

>>22105793
inb4 NEWBORNS THO!

>>22105788
you are all instantly assumed that I'm close minded, arrogant, and foolish because I find the doctrine of original sin morally objectionable. seeing as you know nothing about me, it seems like if I am arrogant, you must be as arrogant as I am.
>>22105793
>You can say I did the same to you, but then you went and proved me right
I didn't prove you right, I simply say whatever ideas I get out of the innocence of my heart, not because I am arrogant, but because I'm honest
>children will lie if they aren't taught to tell the truth.
yet humans are the ones who teach them not to lie and who decided that lies are bad, so it looks to me like humans are naturally good when they flourish, even if we have to teach this goodness to children. and anyway, someone lying doesn't mean they are "naturally evil", at best it means they are neutral, but they can't be neutral because in my experience people's motivations for doing the wrong thing usually come from goodness.

>>22105780
>you're all more arrogant than me
this has to be parody

>>22105808
>the innocence of my heart
anon pls

you're talking yourself into a big heap of trouble, I don't even know which part to reply to
How do you determine what is good or evil? is it simply "whatever humans decide"? how do YOU determine when to conform with human morality and when to rebel?

>>22105770
Lmao.

>>22105750
>Augustine writes lists of all the ways babies are evil and obsesses over eating a pear when he was 12 for the rest of his life

Have you read Boccaccio? The Ser Ciappalletto episode satirizes this. The guy is a conman and murderer but he pretends stealing food was his greatest sin to trick the confessor when he is on his deathbed.

>>22105811
all morality is human morality and it comes from instinct. we are just like bees. bees don't distinguish between bee morality and god's morality, they just do what is natural to them, and we say that they are fulfilling their function and therefore doing good by following their instincts. humans are only different because they have language and get disconnected from instinct. I choose to rebel based on my motives, I don't need some schizophrenic external rule to tell me what to do because I'm not disconnected from my inner nature and desires.

>>22105816
The Ciappalletto episode directly references that “I stole milk!”

>>22105820
>I choose to rebel based on my motives
Do you believe the world would be a better place if everyone did this

>>22105774
larp

>tfw want to get insight into the church fathers and their thoughts
>get "I've comprehended every worldview.'

>>22105826
provided they stopped believing in delusions. if people didn't have pervasive delusions then they would be able to follow their motives and they would do good 90% of the time. but people are blinded as to their own motives and constantly do things just because they believe they are compelled to.

>>22105836
>if people didn't have pervasive delusions then they would be able to follow their motives and they would do good 90% of the time.
How would you ever go about proving this

>>22105839
I'm constantly proving it to myself based on my experience. I don't know how you would falsify it scientifically, but nobody has ever been able to scientifically prove or disprove any ethical theory.

Why are you still reading that shit, christcuckery is over lol

>>22105845
>I'm constantly proving it to myself based on my experience
that's easy if you're using your own motives as a reference for good and evil.
you couldn't possibly determine someone else would share your motives. you're also doing the same thing as religious people, except instead of using a 3rd party text, you're just referencing your own motives. and if someone does differently then you just say gobbledygook them being blinded to their motives and feeling compelled etc.

>>22105832
my point was that I am open minded, which I stated because he called me close minded, not because of my hubris. I guess that I should have just insulted him back and fail to try to sincerely defend myself because of the atomization and alienation caused by the anonymity. the fact is if we all knew each other we wouldn't say all this shit.

>>22105854
"I've comprehended every world view" does not mean you're open minded
you need to be more careful with your words. it isn't a case of people misrepresenting you, it is you saying things that you don't actually mean.

>>22105853
we are all biologically similar, so once you add in the fact that everyone I know grew up in the same culture as me, the majority should have the same basic motives as me. and anyway if I don't use my own instinctual feelings and motives as a reference, I have to use some schizophrenic external rule, when there are thousands of different attempted formulations and it's impossible to decide on them, and equally impossible to actually apply them into your own life since I will just follow my motives whether I believe its ethical or not.

>>22105755
I've been disliking Augustine more and more. Maybe the Orthodox were right all along.

>>22105864
>we are all biologically similar, so once you add in the fact that everyone I know grew up in the same culture as me, the majority should have the same basic motives as me.
you're underestimating the amount of complexity that goes into peoples motives and desires.
you're also underestimating the reason why the vast majority of people throughout all history have chose to be religious. non-religion is the outlier by far. labeling it as schizophrenic is a terribly dishonest reduction. atheism is the deviation.

>>22105871
>you're underestimating the amount of complexity that goes into peoples motives and desires.
There is no variety in chimpanzees or ants. I don't see why humans should be any different, except for the fact we've all got delusions implanted into our brains because of language.
>non-religion is the outlier by far
1. it is the outlier in recorded history. before somebody invented religion and it spread because of the virulent nature of language, it's easier to assume that nobody had religion
2. it's my understanding that the vast majority of religions consist of mere rituals, and were never designed to control people's morality like western religions. why else would the daoists, the confucians, and the mohists in china not appeal to their religion when they first started investigating religions?

>>22105893
>first started investigating religions
investigating ethics*

>>22105893
>There is no variety in chimpanzees or ants. I don't see why humans should be any different, except for the fact we've all got delusions implanted into our brains because of language.
because we have a intrinsic capacity to contemplate the transcendental. To appreciate wisdom and love and beauty. But to you, this is just delusion right? I have nothing more to say if that's how you've decided to view life. It isn't like I can prove to you that beauty and love objectively exist, not without my "delusional religion" anyways.

>>22105904
yes, beauty and love objectively exist as human phenomena. the idea that either was "transcendent" and objective was first invented by greek philosophers, spreading all the way down to you 2000 years later, transmitted almost like a virus. you'd be hard pressed to find a non-indo-european culture that views them that way. that's because it isn't natural to think that beauty is some kind of divine call to the world of forms, in fact it's quite a bizarre belief that indeed qualifies as delusion, which you would realize if it hadn't been mimetically implanted in your own brain

>>22105755
>every citizen of europe for hundreds of years that they were born so irredeemably evil only divine intervention could possibly redeem them
well isn't it obvious? have you not looked around anon?

picrel is flag of Satan

Christ is King
INRI

>>22105808
>you are all instantly assumed that I'm close minded, arrogant, and foolish because I find the doctrine of original sin morally objectionable
No, that just hinted you were a fedora tipper a(lbeit most of the time atheism is an intelligence LARP). The arrogant part came from your proclamation that you understand all worldviews and subsequent "NO YOU!"

>>22105845
Explain books like Ordinary Men or Into That Darkness or Neighbors or The Balality of Evil. Simply assuming the herd will do good by adopting Scientism is one of the absolute dumbest things anyone can say and betrays a total ignorance of not only science, religion, and history but also a complete naivity of human nature in general.

>>22106034
so you don't think the nazis were laboring under a delusion? and people who commit evil because of bureaucratic banalities aren't under delusions as to what they do and why, and whether they have to do it?

>>22105753
Jerome almost got excommunicated for getting a hardon while ranting about Apollo deep-dicking the Pythia during one of his sermons. He might not have been broken-brain crazy but he clearly was mentally ill.

>>22105846
this. Nietzsche gave us a new light after the long night of the dying and weak shadow of christcuckery. Fools, all of them, believing in jewish desert fairy tales

>>22106054
his dick getting hard while discussing sex seems coom brained, but not mentally ill
post source, anyway?

>>22105846
What is next? Globohomo woke transhumanism? Yeah I'd rather preserve Christianity. Typical tranny/jew post

>>22105868
Yes Orthodoxy is correct, funny only the Latin church fathers are mentioned in the thread on the topic of mental illness which makes sense when you try hard to add novelty and rigid rationality to a traditional faith well preserved from the Apostles.

>>22106070
Who are some Orthodox church fathers for me to read?

>>22106062
>preserve
You're about five-hundred years too late.

>>22106055
Ah yes daddy nietzsche has all the answers. Let's Will to power by having buttsex and lifting weights

>>22106070
doesn't orthodoxy revere augustine as well

>>22106075
Nigga look around you. Churches are still standing and active. Orthodoxy and Catholicism preserve traditions from the 2nd century. And still preferable to trannyism

judeo gods are false gods also keep in mind, pretty new fenomena to enslave people and catch their minds. real "god" will manifest to you one day, maybe u are a god also?

>>22106074
St John Chrystostom is essential. His divine liturgy is the one used in Eastern Orthodox churches to this day. St Maximus the Confessor is based too

>>22105750
The biggest mental illness of all was the collective delusion regarding past Roman persecutions. The fantasies they believed were similar to those told today about the Holocaust.

>>22106095
Thinking we are our own gods is exactly what got us into trannyism. Read Nihilism by Seraphim Rose

>>22106102
if trannies worshipped themselves they'd love their real gender. they love society. they're oversocialized and society has been feeding them propaganda to turn their regular mental illness into transgenderism.

>>22106102
christianity destroyed europe 1k years ago, killing alll the old saint trees and burned all old books, killed all the "witches" older people with the pre atlantis wisdom, u are the cancer for this continet, thats why the tranny rule the world now its pure karma, sadly. false gods.

>>22105750
I didn't know about these. That's pretty funny. Context on Jerome?
>>22105793
>children will lie if they aren't taught to tell the truth
Children will lie if you're a tyrannical retard who incentivises deception as a self-defence strategy to avoid abuse. In most cases where children do evil things, it is as a result of adults deforming their character.
I will concede that some extremely evil children exist, but that's not the universal nature of all children - only some, just like with the rest of human beings.
>>22105846
And thank god.

>>22106149
even infants exhibit jealousy, my word salad friend

traditon>religion

>>22106083
Only under the context of when he is correct on a given position.

>>22106083
He is a Saint but because of his repentance not his theology, which is rejected.

>>22106199
Perhaps I should rephrase that, his theology holds no influence.

>>22106054
lol, if this is the standard, then i guess even the tradcatboys today could make it big one day

>>22106177
I guess I can believe it, you seem to be one big jealous infant yourself. So it is hard to argue that no such phenomenon exists.

i hope one day europe can feel free from this judeo invaders. look how the continet is right now. chistianity is false gods robing people from their own minds

>>22106047
>strawman
I assume the devil is in the details while you assume he doesn't exist.

>>22106054
Sounds like really inserted himself into the story. Source please?
>>22106098
Christians still believe these tales without question. The persecution complex is a main component of the Christian psyche.

if i see a neo nazi i will fucking kill him,. simple as

>>22106242
Sounds like a bluff. Where are you that there isn't one Neo Nazi within driving distance?

>>22105750
>EVERYTHING I DONT LIKE IS MENTAL ILLNESS

>>22106274
it's not that I "don't like" when someone strips naked and leaps into the brambles, I simply think it is evidence of mental illness

>>22105755
Ok but hes right

>>22106281
So you think he should be dragged from his home, forcibly injected with drugs, kept for months in solitary confinement until he renounces his faith and subscribes to your worldview?

>>22106281
And yet despite all that, you're probably pozzed enough to think transgender people are perfectly sane.

>>22106261
nazis killed more white people than any other "minorities". but still its kinda sad that germans now will be cucked forever.

>>22106288
why would I care about him subscribing to my "worldview"? you seem to be the only one obsessed with my "worldview". but it would be wise not to listen to what he has to say
>>22106290
take your meds, nobody thinks trans people are sane.

>>22106297
"trans people" how we get tricked so much to argue so much about this non issue when corporation fucking us in the ass

>>22106297
You seek to control people’s minds by force, what is that if not evil?

>>22106308
I literally said that I didn't want to control his mind by force

>>22106311
No, you said “take your meds”.
What more proof de we need?

i hope one day we will all wake up and stop fighting each other for the better future

>>22106313
It's an idiom

>>22106292
For the record I'm not defending Nazis. I just think that anon talking tough on the internet for no reason is asinine

>>22106318
idc about your better future
Living for your family, money, friends, future is a maggots life.
there is no moving on because we will all die
The only way out is Jesus Christ

>>22106318
>I'm 13 and this is deep

>>22106323
It’s like the N-word (nigger).

>>22106334
You're what they mean with the word "nazi". Anyone slightly reasonable is.

what we can do to be better person? what can we do to enchance the human race, thats what im thinking about and i dont give a fuck about the culture wars, its silly

>>22105755
He seems right desu. Babys are assholes too, that’s obvious to anyone who has one

>>22105846
Yeah I love lgbt corpsote holiday month! Happy pride !

>>22106378
nazis are the germans, still many people there hold these thoughts. but are cucked beyond the believes. i hope no other country ends like this
>>22106378
i hate when people are calling them self names, "nazi' or " commie|" we all now it was bad lets do something else and build better future, at least try

Wait until this clown gets a load of the Desert Fathers. Watching Americans trying to comprehend times and places outside of their own is of extreme anthropological interest to me.

>>22106070
Orthodox think that you have to pay demons to get access to the Mario Kart track you ride to heaven.
>>22106083
They see Augustine as a saint but think he was wrong about shit
>Supported the Filioque
>Implicitly supported the Immaculate Conception
>Platonic reasoning to understand sin instead of just divine revelation
He's the origin of everything Orths don't like about Caths.

>>22106498
>video game analogy
Don't ever post again.

>>22106492
for fuck's sake I can comprehend something without approving of it. why is everyone forcing this narrative on me?

>>22106508
Tell me why you think the Desert Fathers fled the world and went into the desert to sleep standing up in thorn bushes and battle demons in caves.

>>22106525
no internet?

>>22106525
I've read some of the philokalia and even tried to apply some of its advice. i can comprehend that they thought they were battling demons while still thinking that they were ultimately delusional.

>>22106537
>I've read some of the philokalia
>I half-heartedly prayed for a few minutes a day last summer for a week
>these other who men prayed and wept for their sins in what was basically late antiquity's equivalent of outer space?
>let me tell you about them
Astounding.

>>22106545
way to miss the point and assume the worst

>>22106550
You said nothing worth engaging. People who have no taste for times and places outside their own are just not worth talking to on any level.

>>22105755
Humanity is dead and sin and desperately needs the saving grace of salvation in Jesus Christ. Anyone denying this is unregenerate and dead in their sins. Just look at this awful society.

>>22106560
who are you describing? can't be me.

>>22106507
>YOU CANT JUST SATIRIZE STRATOSPHERE DEMONIC TOLLHOUSES

>>22105750
>Augustine writes lists of all the ways babies are evil
lmao sauce?

>>22106507

>>22106090
Yes thank G-d we still have our church authority to guide us

>>22106508
The issue is you don't sound like a person with comprehension. You sound like a a typical internet pseudo live everyone else here

>>22106090
>Orthodoxy and Catholicism
So with one ‘church’ we have a panoply of institutions in schism compromised by caesaropapism and Eastern European nationalism, dominated by literal Turks for centuries and then Bolsheviks (totally not God’s judgment, bro), who can’t even agree on something as basic as whether to baptize converts again or not (inb4 muh Cyprian). Clearly another daughter of the Whore, which is Rome, another blasphemous and idolatrous institution, the Whore of Babylon itself, clothed in the scarlet and purple of cardinals and bishops, sexually immoral and drunk with the blood of the saints. If you think this is Christianity, I don’t know what to tell you

>>22106070
All of the men mentioned in the OP lived before the schism and are therefore venerated by both churches (with the exception of Origen who was ultimately deemed a heretic). The Desert Fathers often exhibited behaviours that would be considered symptoms of mental illness today: monomania in regards to perceived wrongdoings; hallucinations; and general aversion to contact with other people. IIRC St Anthony the Great spent years secluded in an old Roman fortification, and his daily rations were thrown over the walls to him.

>>22106598
everyone sounds like a typical internet pseudo to everyone else. that's just the medium.

>>22106604
>and general aversion to contact with other people
Confirmed for not knowing what the fuck he's talking about.

>>22106609
Did the Desert Fathers not live in seclusion and flee from others in fear of committing sin ?

>>22106613
They did, but stories abound with them being humbled by the piety of relatively worldly people, and the emphasis they placed on transparency of the heart. They fled the desert to love. They weren't acosmic gnostics.

>>22106622
Fled the world*

>>22106074
>Who are some Orthodox church fathers for me to read?
Read this for a start >>22106097

If you want to go deeper i would suggest:
Nicodemos of mount athos
Saint Paisios
Saint Porfirios
Antony the great
Also read filokalia

>>22106622
Desert fathers used to leave in groups. Extreme isolation was a form of pride and was avoided by the church fathers. There was a story of a monk who didn't even go to the feast tables after easter to avoid physical contact with other monks and he hallucinated and he fell into a pit and died

>>22106082
No one leads, or even attempts to lead their life as that of an overman, they instead lead Dionysian hedonistic lives. Don't put props into philosophers who can't even live by their own philosophy.

>>22105755
>the man singlehandedly convinced every citizen of europe for hundreds of years that they were born so irredeemably evil only divine intervention could possibly redeem them
Ngl that's pretty based

>>22106074
Saint Maximus the Confessor!!!

>>22105755
>the man singlehandedly convinced every citizen of europe for hundreds of years that they were born so irredeemably evil only divine intervention could possibly redeem them.
Yes.

>>22105913
>invented
discovered*

>>22105913
Your calling it mimesis doesn't deny the validity of the claim itself: otherwise it wouldn't hold. You've read too much New Atheism. The claim of beauty's transcendence has held on these 2000 years because it allowed itself to be and sacrificed itself to be assimilated by human minds. Its staying power is what it surrendered from itself *as its own act* in the discovery of it.

>>22106124
>>22106338

>>22108699
i've never read any new atheism.

https://energeticprocession.wordpress.com/2005/04/17/response-to-fr-kimel/ - about Catholicism in general
https://energeticprocession.wordpress.com/2006/03/08/spit-spat/ - Platonism of Augustine
https://energeticprocession.wordpress.com/2006/03/10/the-bickersons/ - more about Augustine
https://energeticprocession.wordpress.com/2007/08/25/an-apologetic-two-fer/ - Protestants do not oppose filioque even though it is an unbiblical doctrine
https://energeticprocession.wordpress.com/2007/10/17/heres-a-dot/ - Arianism and Platonism
https://energeticprocession.wordpress.com/2007/10/19/two-sides-same-coin/ - Latin theology is based on Platonism
https://energeticprocession.wordpress.com/2007/12/03/killing-your-father/ - Protestants are the heirs of Catholic theology
https://energeticprocession.wordpress.com/2008/06/21/the-naked-book/ - why Protestants don't really adhere to Sola Scriptura
https://energeticprocession.wordpress.com/2009/03/08/anglicans-in-exile/ - about Anglicanism
https://energeticprocession.wordpress.com/2009/04/09/no-gospel-for-augustine/ - Sola Fide and Sola Gratia
https://energeticprocession.wordpress.com/2009/05/06/the-nub/ - about the Trinitarian theology of Catholicism
https://energeticprocession.wordpress.com/2009/06/13/an-imposition/ - (non)obligatory acceptance of filioque from the point of view of the Vatican
https://energeticprocession.wordpress.com/2009/07/03/hes-got-issues/ - response to Lutherans
https://energeticprocession.wordpress.com/2009/08/30/episcopacy-and-the-reformation/ - about episcopacy
https://energeticprocession.wordpress.com/2010/06/12/picking-cherries/ - Iconoclasm in the West and Christianity of the Franks
https://energeticprocession.wordpress.com/2011/01/08/athanasius-contra-ecclesiam/ - Calvinism and Anglicanism
https://energeticprocession.wordpress.com/2022/01/20/attack-of-the-lutheran-polemicists/

>>22108758
My apologies. It sounded like you were referring to Dennett's notion of memes, which I believe he got from Dawkins, but I don't really care. I don't like the word "memetics" to describe ideas, as if humans have any control of what ideas spread through them. The memetic spread happened because both the "meme" and the human opened themselves up to one another in self-sacrifice and became one with the other: complements.

>>22108790
Whether or not he is correct, which I believe he is, that guy is insolent. You aren't going to convert anyone by insulting them.

>To sin is an evil, and I deeply regret my sins
>LOOOOOOOOL WTF GET A LOAD OF THIS MENTAL ILLNESS WHAT A WACKADOODLE

do atheists really?

>>22106498
Toll houses isn't solidified church doctrine, so you can choose to believe it or not. Nice try though

>>22105755
atheism is mental illness

>>22106062
Zoroastrianism

>>22105755
I love that scene at the bathhouse where Augustine's father notices how his son is becoming a man, goes back to celebrate with his wife, like a proper pagan, and Monica chastises him because, according to her, now Augustine was ready to sin. She was a horrible manipulative woman.

>>22106318
Unfortunately I don't see a better future unless we get rid of those redditor atheists