/lit/ - Literature

>>22082822
Were social cohesion and harmony Nietzsche's ends? Are they the only possible ends?

>>22082822
>While Nietzsche sees Christianity as a barrier to human flourishing
It is.
>can serve as a social force for cohesion
Yet never once has it. For pretty obvious reasons.

> By highlighting the importance of Girard's work,
And ignoring the evidence.
This is common christian cope they’ve been pulling oit their ass for centuries. Just stop it. It is embarrassing.

>>22083023
>Yet never once has it.
Literally the only form of social gathering left in most towns is at church

>>22083030
Ah! Obedience = cohesion for you
That’s not flourishing. Prison camps are not flourishing

>>22083081
This could be an interesting distinction if and only if there was any other remaining face to face interaction between people outside of commerce. You don't like church society? Okay, abolish it, now you have no society left at all.

>>22083105
*rofl*

>>22083105
Play some sports fatty

>>22082822
Girard needs to resort to disingenuously connecting Nietzsche and Nazism for his critique to have some weight. It is really ridiculous.

>>22083523
Read multiple books of his and have never seen Girard do this. While I’m sure you’re right that he may have done it in the past, you are wrong that he “needs to resort” to this.

>>22083661
You haven't read I See Satan Fall? I'm saying he needs this because this is the main base on which his ''refutation'' of Nietzsche rests.

>>22083746
Ok I have read that, maybe my memory is just dogsh*t

>>22083081
Nigga did you just compare local churches to prison camps?

>>22082822
Christianity was mythos and morals of a world which just doesn't exist anymore. Life is different, people are different, challenges are different. It's the same reason why boomer advice is so useless: 'just walk in and shake their hands' when hiring policies don't work like that, etc. Christianity relies on a certain ignorance of the world to construct an admittedly beautiful framework for a society which promotes responsibility to the individual for self regulation. But it's just not going to work anymore. Everyone knows there's no such thing as magic, everyone knows where myths and religions come from, everyone knows how life came to be in this world. The only hangers on to the old system are dimwits who are too stupid to figure out it was all made up to serve a purpose.

>>22082822
ChatGPT detected

>>22084744
I don't think you understand Christianity. Faith is based on reason and in the modern era, probability calculus.

>>22084759
>Faith is based on reason
Yes, that's exactly the problem. The narrative has been destroyed by modern discoveries, and no reasonable person can come to the conclusion that it's true.

>>22084744
Which is why the only valid system is the Dharmic system. Especially since it doesn't require you to believe in any magic and supernatural things. You literally do the needful because it's your duty, responsibility, and role you are meant to play in society and the natural order (i.e Dharma). Karma works because whatever you do has a butterfly effect and one way or another your bad deeds will come and bite you in the ass, often simply due to the fact that bad deeds poison your soul and make you take bad decisions and "sin".

Hence, live a righteous, disciplined and just life, by following your Dharma during the roles you play in the various stages of your life by doing good Karma (actions). You don't do it for any rewards in the afterlife or due to fear of a magic man's eternal gulag. You do what you need to do because it's the right and just thing to do.

>>22084480
YES.

>>22082822
If social cohesion and harmony are what you want, just about every other religion is better than Christianity. Confucianism, Daoism, Hinduism, Islam, ect are much more conducive to social cohesion and harmony.

>>22085909
>ect
Etc.

>>22085909
I somewhat tend to agree. Especially since the advent of the Reformation, Christianity basically is the religion where eveyman is his own church and his own exegetical authority. It's also the most self-centered religion. The very cental tenet of it is that your so precious THAT THE HIGHEST BEING IN ALL OF EXISTENCE, G'D HIMSELF, VOLUNTARILY (!!!!) DIED AN EXCRUCIATING DEATH ON THE CROSS just so your little worthless ass doesn't get thrown into Hell. I have never heard something as so unfanthomably narcissistic as this, nothing else comes even tangentially close. No wonder the Christian West is the capital of Narcissim & Hedonism.

>>22082822
Why did this guy get such a cult following? After his death they wanted to build a Nietzschean temple ffs

>>22086571
A lot of Nietzsche's work is very empowering. If I was an atheist, he would be my biggest inspiration.

>>22082822
Why would social cohesion and harmony correspond with human flourishing? Christianity homogenizes everyone into niggers

>>22083081
>>22083030
I dont understand what the problem is with that argument. It s not like Christianity prevents yyou from doing great things. All you have to do to be a Christian is believe in God and Jesus, everything else is supplemental

>>22087353
>All you have to do to be a Christian is believe in God and Jesus
Larpers say the darndest things

>>22083005
No, his ubermensch was a motivated and directed, even violent (though not militaristically), contemplative/artistic individual. You could, in the English world, call him byronic
>I must be profoundly related to Byron's Manfred: of all the dark abysses in this work I found the counterparts in my own soul-at the age of thirteen I was ripe for this book. Words fail me, I have only a look, for those who dare to utter the name of Faust in the presence of Manfred
>>22083023
>>22083081
>>22083388
>>22087514
This thread has also convinced me that most Nietzscheans are just euphoric, kneejerk-reacting, resentful spergs who can't properly formulate ideas, handle reality, and ignore others in favor of art. Literal last men, its embarrassing.

>>22087541
Saying that all you have to do to be Christian is just believe in Jesus is objectively wrong, even an actual Christian would tell you that much.

>>22087561
>an actual Christian
>>22087514
>larpers
This is what I mean. There's a clear incapability to deal with things concretely, so much that when you get called out for it, your solution is not to defend yourself, but to claim you meant something totally different. Why even bother being a pseud at that point?

>>22087574
Anyone who says that Christianity is just believing in Jesus is indeed just a larper

>>22087588
>anyone who has a sincere belief that I happen to disagree with for any reason doesn't have that belief

>>22083081
>www.reddit.com
now

>>22087607
>Christianity just believing Jesus exists
You are also a retard

>>22087637
I never said that

>>22082822
>Nietzsche BTFO
Yes he was.

>>22082822
Can you elaborate more on how Girard critiques Nietzsche?

>>22082822
Ah, another Nietzsche thread. A /lit/ staple for pure shitflinging. Often Christians vs atheists, sometimes chuds vs socialists, sometimes chads vs incels.

>>22084752
Guilty as charged. What detector did you use?

>>22082822
Nietzsche's ends had never been about telling others what they should live for or any image of society that should be enforced onto everyone else; he was more interested in exploring the root of morality and ethics and served as the foundation for the idea that meaning was up to everyone to themselves to decide.

>>22084744
>Everyone knows materialism is true
No. Materialism doesn't even make sense. The world is contingent and requires an explanation. Life requires a coherent justification. All the atheist has to offer is "it's just a brute fact bro". This can only satisfy the megalopolitan science-man who purposefully blinds himself to reality.

So we are supposed to accept that consciousness is produced by the movements of particles in the brain, which somehow come together and create qualia. There's no explanation for this it's just a brute fact.

We are supposed to accept that reason, logic, mathematics, and universals are all just made up by these movements of atoms in the brain. Even though to assert that very sentence is to make a truth-claim, thus assuming that reality exists and can be apprehended by rightly-ordered intellects. This has no explanation either, just a brute fact.

The universe, its laws, its regularity and immensity, its contingent nature, all just brute facts.

Morals are also made up for the purposes of survival, and yet we have to be kind to people! Why? No reason, just a brute fact.

The atheist worldview doesn't even begin to explain the basic problems of the human condition. It is incapable of doing so.

>>22083105
what a boring worldview

Nietzsche wasn't a philosopher. The most credit you could give him is to call him a prophet or a schizo. Someone who intuits certain truths but can't coherently ground or explicate them. Such minds often have worthwhile things to say, but because they have no grasp of what they're talking about, but are more like divinely inspired prophets who are just mouthpieces for a greater being, they get most things wrong.

For example he calls Socrates ugly and poor, thinking that this refutes him. It's a funny thing to say, no doubt, but it's not philosophy. It's schizo ramblings.

>>22088516
filtered

>>22082822
>Girard's theory reveals how it can serve as a powerful force for social cohesion and harmony.
DON'T CARE.
I don't want to harmonise with ANY of you faggots. You disgust me. You are repulsive to me. I have values, principles, too - I DO NOT want to harmonise with society. Fuck you.

But Nietzsche himself recognizes the strengths of Christianity for this exact purpose in The Genealogy of Morals? He accepts that whilst it has set back humanity in a number of ways he feels the moral codes that were introduced by it were necessary to build a flourishing society because such a thing was never in mans true interest. It had its place its just no longer relevant

>>22087703
Your implication is that Niet was BTFO’d by Wagner?

>>22087353
Quite the opposite. Going to church, so the social part, has been shown to be far more important for happiness and the eeling of cohesion than the degree to which you actually believe. People who didn't even believe much but still went to church every week had more positive benefits from religion than those who didn't go to church as often but were very devout.
The religous aspect is literally one of the least important for making people happy in any way. The belief itself is a supplement to creating a communal feeling, one very easy to replace.

>>22088515
It's an observation not a worldview, society has unironically collapsed. Anything that survived the twin disasters of commercialization and civil rights has been destroyed by the internet.

>>22088905
Why of course. Wagner proved the beauty and strength of Christianity, contrary to all of Nietzsche's ideas, or, rather, proved it was perhaps the summation of them, and this being the case, completely flipped Nietzche's worldview on it's head. Wagner then died and Nietzsche had to cope and seethe (writing entire books for this sole purpose) for the rest of his life.

>>22087349
but enough of secularism cuck

>>22085909
none of those examples produced any harmony we can just look at chinks and prove you wrong retard.
>>22085364
streetshitters are delusional

>>22083105
>>22083105

nigga are you fr tho? how much of an armchair psychologist are you to have come up with this kind of shit?

there are still tons of other reasons for social gathering, church society I would say belongs to like the bottom 5, least influential in the place where I grow up, and we have a happy social circle/culture in this place

>>22088498
>Morals are also made up for the purposes of survival

Saying shit like this just screams to people's face you haven't read Nietzsche, why do ignorant Christcucks always have this audacity

>>22089556
why do neetchcucks love being buckbrocken by christians?

>>22089543
where are you from let's check your claims.

>>22089422
Your argument is a snide insult you’ve heard hurled at yourself, I see.
If you were a thinking man, you’d come to realize your very faith is cuckoldry itself.

>>22089570
what you vomited now is just your wishes not an argument, nothing in history has contributed more to cuck shit then modern secularism.

>>22089573
It’s the opposite of my wishes, child. I don’t want to leave you in shackles to blind faith, awaiting instructions from some deranged pulpit.
The “cuck shit” you notice of course are the sex webms you frequent on /gif/. You can’t live without i posing yourself upon other people. You may be tormented by it, but they appreciate their audience.
Ah, a cuck over again, this time “secularist” porn.

>>22089600
>The “cuck shit” you notice of course are the sex webms you frequent on /gif/.
very specific cuck.
I was there once and left immediately when I saw bunch of blacked shit there. SO you do visit that place and my hunch was true. Subhuman cucks like you should be killed on sight.

>>22089061
Wagner was a CINO.

>>22089608
>I only saw it once! I swear!
Don’t lie to Jesus.

But what you limit to sexual rules of the church, I point out that it is your whole being that they enslave. The naive and the yet enthralled liberals are just kicking back enjoying their sexual “freedom”. It’s a narcotic the state allows in order to pacify (and as late to enrage, in order to sew more division). Hardly matters in reality. You think it worth killing over, degenerate that you are. Always willing to murder before feeling love or even lust.

Your type is whats wrong with the world. And people like Nietzsche noticed it and called you out!

>>22089611
Cope. He'd had such leanings since Tanhauser at the very least.

>>22089643
nigger I don't need to lie. I literally went down and checked every single board. There are others I visited only once. You need to keep your projections to yourself neetch was a cuck and so are you.

>>22089650
Your mum

>>22089669
that does not even makes sense is your mom a cuck? She enjoyes black dick so that why you browse /gif/

>>22089674
Cuckoldry isn’t about race mixing, it’s about subjecting yourself willingly to the power of another. Sexually it’s relinquishing your mate to another for kicks. Christianly it’s relinquishing your life to a church. You are the bigger cuck than even sexual cucks.

>>22088498
>the need to know everything and its place in existance yo find comfort in being
>Weak

>>22089700
>Cuckoldry isn’t about race mixing
it is cuck subhuman. the fact that you just said that already proves your nature atheistcuck faggot.
Don't forget to submit to another male with your asscheeks faggot.

>>22090532
Goddamn you are an insufferable idiot.