/lit/ - Literature

Why was Socrates so shocked by Book 14, Hera/Zeus stuff.

>>22067791

this week is last week bros(i read up to book 20 in advance this weekend so i can slack off)

im a busy working man and i got shit to study

>book 14
> the "Zeus btfo by Nyx" edition

>>22067845
I remember him disliking the immoral actions attributed to Hera and Zeus because he felt it was a bad example for higher powers and deities to be given negative roles. Give specific citations.

>>22067907
Lmao, I did the same thing for the same reason and am on the same book

>>22067913
Socrates:
>muh gods aren’t real *tips fedora*
>also, gods are ethical

Pick one you chump

>>22067911
Zeus is a chud, pbuh

>>22067911

Makes you wonder whether Zeus was just an ineffective middle-manager between the forces of creation and the humans.

Also there’s plenty of myths where Nyx fucks with Zeus and the olympians, so makes you wonder what her power differential was.

>>22067948
He never said the first thing but he did imply that gods aren’t necessarily arbitrators of good or evil which kind of disqualifies the second thing.

>>22068185
If gods aren’t the arbiters of good and evil then who cares if Homer portrayed them as being deceptive and dissolute?

>>22067948
>>22068157
>Socrates is a chump
>Zeus is a chud
Anons itt have no respect

>>22068201
Yeah, that is my point. His anti-divine command theory points in Euthyphro are repudiated by him in the Republic or vice versa, I suppose. Socrates very frequently contradicted himself based on the dialogue or who he was talking to.

>>22068659
Don’t be silly. If socrates believed in the gods, wouldn’t he have mentioned that in his own defense at his trial? He didn’t so he didn’t. Case closed. Socrates would be spinning 500 rpm in his grave if he overheard your reasoning abilities.

An anon in the previous thread brought up how the gods played a bigger role than expected and I have to agree. In the introduction of my edition it mentioned how the story of the Iliad was driven by men while the gods were in the background but I found that there was a lot of divine intervention so far the last few books have been back and forth between different gods aiding each side.

>>22068715
Fuckin Hera just can’t end her simping and Zeus hates that bitch

>>22068659
I suspect that's because Euthyphro is a somewhat faithful portrayal of him doing his thing of questioning people's beliefs, while the Republic is turning him into a mouthpiece for Plato's beliefs that he probably never held.

A footnote at the beginning of Book 14 in the edition I'm reading:
>This book forms a most agreeable interruption to the continuous round of battles, which occupy the latter part of the Iliad.
It had fucking better.

>>22068821
Yeah, that is the general academic consensus of early- middle- late. Early is the Socratic stuff, middle is forms and late is political stuff for Dionysius when he was political consultant.

>>22068834
Not tired of baffles yet my fren?

>>22068854
No I mean there had better be an agreeable interruption.

>>22068979
Touché. Kind of a weird footnote tho imo, since Book 15 is really the Last monotonous battle book imo.

>>22068979
you forgot that you’re 4channel and thus you are obligated to point out that he said “baffles” and not “battles.” even better if you pretend like you have no idea what he’s talking about because “baffles” makes no sense in that sentence

>>22069231
>4channel

>>22069284
I spelt it correctly

>>22069295
I've never heard anyone call 4ch "4channel" before.

btw guys I've fallen super behind but I'll find a way to power through and catch up

Fuckkk, I fell behind and just finished book 12. Should I speedrun the audiobook for the next 3 or 4 books instead of reading it?

Book 15 today. Zeus has Iris deliver a message to Poseidon: “Fly home buddy, I work alone.”

>>22069284
Proboscis monkey looking helmet

>>22070041
no, that ruins the point of reading classics

>>22069836
Must be new here. Look at your url bar, tell me what domain you see.

>>22070041
Do what you must anon

>>22068696
Technically, his detractors accused him of creating his own gods in his head and worshiping them instead of the “real ones.”

>>22070324
Some of the classics can do with a little professional reader pizazz. Even if I don't think the Iliad specifically needs it.

>>22070503
>the irony of calling 4chan 4channel and disparaging someone as new

>>22067791
Why gods so concerned with the events around Troy when everything is predetermined? I mean the fate of the city, Hector and Achilles.

>>22070833
>the irony of calling 4chan 4channel and disparaging someone as new

Bro, the split happened five years ago. People have been semi-ironically referring to blue boards as 4channel for five years. If you haven't witnessed that in the past five years, then either you're new, or you don't come here, in which case you shouldn't be saying stupid stuff like "Omg, I've never seen someone call it 4channel."

>>22070988
Yeah, also, why do the gods never seem to speak with one another about lands outside of this narrow slice of the Mediterranean.

Do you think Hector actually thinks victory is likely, or is he just killing time heroically?

>>22071526
I think it's fairly clear and also an underlying message how the gods play with humans almost with toys and that their noos/intelligence is far above that of humans, in particular, regarding the perception of where things are going.
The war had been going on for 10 years, did Hektor think he could burn the Achaean ships and end it once and for all seeing the best Achaean warrior was out of question? I think so

>>22071170
Because Homer wasn't made privy to the details of those conversations, duh.

>>22070988
That Troy will fall is predetermined. How things get to that fall isn't. Each Olympian wants Their Guys to get as much out of the process of that leadup as they can.

>>22071748
If I knew that Troy was going to fall, that pretty much guarantees the death of 95% of Trojans. Why would I take their side if I were a god? I understand why Zeus did, that is made very clear in the Iliad. But what about Hera, Apollo, etc.? Sounds pretty idiotic.

>>22070310
no u

>>22070988
Hector and Achilles are predetermined sorta but not really. Thetis knows if Achilles faces him he will die but he still has the option to high tail it which is why he threatened like a baby repeatedly to leave on the beaked ships.

>>22071962
>Why would I take their side if I were a god?
Exactly what I said. The Gods want Their Guys to benefit out of it. If Aphrodite didn't intervene, then Aeneas would be one of the 95% of dead Trojans. She didn't want him to die, so she saved him. Repeat as needed. Alternatively, look at it from the other side: Poseidon wants to fuck up some Trojans, so she's trying to maximize the death toll.

I'm surprised that the whole "Achilles is invulnerable except for his heel" thing doesn't seem to be part of Homer's version of the character. In modern times that's gotta be the most famous thing about Achilles.

>>22072269
Yeah Achilles was only destined to die if he fights. That’s why it’s le ebbin epic when he rejoins the battle.

>>22072923
>no Achilles heel
>no Trojan Horse
That’s why this isn’t BC capecrap. It’s an actual good story.

>>22067791
bro wasn't homer blind?

>>22073445
nah mate
i've been watching simpsons for 5 years now and i could comfirm homer has a good eyesight

Book 16: Patroclus dons Achilles’ armor today. And just like that, the action takes off!

>>22073445
>>22073551
Yeah I also can’t think of a single episode in which Homer was blind

>>22072932
And it was immoral of him to do that because as Socrates notes to Hippias, he had promised to run away on the beaked ships and by returning to fight he broke his word. It would have been more just to leave, ironically.

>>22073901
Right, but he clearly didn’t join the war for moral or ethical considerations, I don’t think Achilles would even argue that. He rejoined to mercilessly seek vengeance for Patroclus’ death, as is evidenced by his treatment of Hector’s body.

Do you think the men were actually roused by Achilles' speech in Book 16?

Could Zeus actually have changed Sarpedon's fate?

Hektor wanted to decapitate Patroklos and feed him to dogs
wtf this puts the following events and Achilles quite under a different light

>>22074398
No the Moirai is stronger than Zeus himself
See Prometheus by Aeschylus

>>22074398
there seems to be a repetitive scheme with this, where Zeus ponders about it and asks Hera and she says something like "well do it, but we the other gods won't stay quiet about it/won't agree with it", and every time Zeus does respect fate

>>22074511
Nah. If it was so obvious that Zeus couldn't lift a finger to fate, then why does he toy with the idea constantly?

Are all the unnamed 'henchmen' mentioned throughout the book slaves? Was citizenry even a concept among the pre-Dorian Mycenaeans or was it purely feudal?

bump

>>22074517
Some fates can be sidestepped, some can't. If a prophecy states that you're going to die on the eighth day of the fourth month you're fucked. But if the prophecy states you're gonna die after eating a particular fish you can subvert it by never eating fish. Until some random happenstance that has a single scale of that fish wind up in your soup or something stupid.

It's all up to interpretation. Sometimes you are given a warning you can work with. Other times you are given the hard facts. That's why being clever is worth much more than being strong most of the time.

>>22075387
What is my fate, anon?

Odysseus has talked the other Greeks out of just going home multiple times. What the fuck's his problem? Maybe he deserves what's coming to him in the Odyssey.

I haven’t even read the odyssey, but at this point in the Iliad I am 100% confident that the odyssey is better than the Iliad.

So how powerful are the Titans or primeval gods? Nyx seems scary OP by the standards of the Gods

>>22076144
She's literally the daughter of Chaos itself so yes. The Titans are much more powerful than the Olympians but I don't think they play as much of an active role in the world since the birth of the gods. Just my 2 cents.

>>22076177
>Just my 2 cents.
The boilerplate phrase that means "I actually have no idea what I'm talking about."

I'm surprised there isn't more discussion of today's reading, the climax of the Iliad: the death of Patroclus.. Is anyone actually still reading?

>>22076360
That's what I meant, yes. But at least I don't have autism on top of no idea.

>>22076498
Touché

>>22076374
Just finished that chapter. Loved his last words basically calling Hektor a pussy for depending on the gods rather than fighting like a man. This guy is really a great character, he transformed the battlefield with his army and killed a lot of warriors. Hoping Achilles enters the fight to avenge his friend.

>>22076631
You hope well, my friend

>>22075731
Pls anon. We all know the real prophets are getting high as fuck off of paint thinner on the other boards.

>>22076065
Odysseus devised the Trojan Horse and won the war for them. In Ancient Greece, he is their mastermind.

Book 17 today, the fight over Patroclus’ body. Keep up the good reading anons.

>>22067791
That pen looks retarded

>>22077909
Plus he's just making crisscrosses, wtf?

>>22078211
he was blind you know

>>22078332
topkek

I'm on book 19. Do you guys want to do the Odyssey after? It's a good third shorter so maybe we could take a day's break and start it right after?

>>22079103
yyes!

>>22079103
i would prefer on 29th cuz full of work and on chapter 13

>>22079103
Would love to. I’d like to see more commitments from others tho. I’ve had to bump this thread more than a couple times … I think people’s interest in reading/discussing the Iliad waned fast.

>>22072923
The heel stuff was made up by later Roman authors to explain away Jupiter backing the Greeks despite the Romans being Jupiter's master race.

>>22079103
I'm interested. I was planning on reading the odyssey after anyway.
>>22079584
I think its because the Iliad is slow especially at the beginning but also repetitive. There was a lot of back and forth between the Achaeans and Trojans without either making much progress until Patroclus gets involved. I didn't think it was too bad but I did enjoy reading the Odyssey more.

>>22080191
Yeah, I believe you. I think the Odyssey will have a lot more to discuss.

But for the Iliad it seems like we started with over 10 people committing to read, and maybe 3 of us are left actually reading according to the calendar.

So I'd hope for maybe at least 10-15 commitments for the Odyssey. Then hopefully a more discussable and shorter book would mean that 5-10 actually finish and discuss it regularly.

Why are the Achaeans so unwilling to leave Patroclus' body behind and let the Trojans take it? It's just a body, lol.

>>22080206
Don't worry, now that this chapter is over this kind of meaningless issue doesn't come up anymore for the rest of the book.

>>22080206
The Aechaeans especially Achilles want to give him a proper funeral and burial where as the Trojans would leave him to the dogs and put his head on a pike.

>>22080206
The religious views of the time were that the soul couldn't get to the afterlife properly without the correct funeral rituals. His soul would have to wait until his body decomposed if it wasn't burned
`.

>>22080227
Yes. That is, until they have the same fight over Hector's body.

>>22080271
>His soul would have to wait until his body decomposed if it wasn't burned
doesn't sound that bad desu

>tfw everyone is wearing Achilles' armor except for Achilles

Is it wrong of me to have cheered on the Trojans when they were closing in on Nestor, too busy talkin' bout "back in my day"

>>22080289
Bro you want to be stuck in the same place unmoving for however many years it'd take to rot away? Think of the cramps man. Soul cramps.

>>22080336
How long do you think it takes for a human body to decompose? Probably months. Maybe a year at the worst. Just chill out and enjoy the view.

>>22080422
It depends entirely on where you are. There are open air places you can mummify people at just by leaving their corpses there.

>>22080462
According to the Greeks, if your body mummifies does your soul remain trapped? They must have thought Egyptians to be detestable.

I had AI generate an image of Hektor stealing Achilles' armor off the body of Patroclus ... and it f'ing sucks. Thought I'd share.

>>22079103

I’m interested, I bought a copy of both Iliad and Odyssey for this. I’m somewhat behind schedule though.

>>22080557
That much I don't know. I'm pretty sure as a whole Greek and Egyptian relations were pretty good though. They were both civilized peoples after all. Even if each thought themselves just a little more civilized than the other.

>>22080618
ketchup fren. where you at?

>>22080309
Kek same

Is anybody reading Pope? I want to read him for the Odyssey after but I’ve never read it before and I’m not sure how much of a challenge it will be.

>>22081185
What are you reading for Iliad?

>>22080668

Only a book behind, not too far!

I especially enjoyed Patroklos shitting on Hektor. Would have been interested to see how a legitimate fight between them would have played out. it was a dickass move from Apollo to sneak-attack him. I notice the other gods mostly limit themselves to fucking with morale and ranged weaponry, with exception of Ares, raging autist that he is.

>>22081394
Lattimore. I prefer its erudite/poetic nature and actually want more which is why I was thinking of going with Pope. But unlike the Iliad, I have no familiarity with the plot of the Odyssey so I don't want to be lost.

>>22081464
Seems that the mortals on each side are about equally likeable. To balance out likable Achaeans like Odysseus, you have a likable Trojans like Hektor. Every dislikable Trojan, like Paris, has a dislikable Achaean to counteract, like Agamemnon.

This is not at all true for the gods on each side. The gods/goddesses on the Achaean side are infinitely more likeable than the ones on the Trojan side. Athena BTFO Ares. Hera and Poseidon BTFO Zeus, etc.

Today is Book 18. The Return of the Achilles.

>>22080603
I had AI generate a screenplay for a slice of life anime episode of the Illiad, where there was no war, and everyone was school students
It was fucking WEIRD

>>22081801
Can you share pls?

God Homer really likes lions. Everything is like a lion this, as when a lion that. If you read the Iliad backwards it's actually a story about a lion filled with epic similes comparing things to the Trojan War.

>>22081870
Was some time ago, didn't save sorry
It explained a love triangle with Helen. And kept going on about Achilles and Patroclus being very very good friends

>>22081185
I am. It's not too challenging. The only annoying thing is how many rhymes don't rhyme in my accent (I assume they did rhyme for Pope), e.g. Jove, move, and above.

>>22081916
topkek

>>22081947
Is it your first read?

>>22081916
Lions and surf hitting rocks. I wonder what he would think of this image.

>>22082099
Sort of. I did read up to like book six before but dropped it. Also we did bits of it in high school but I bullshitted my way through that with very little reading.

>>22081916

>>22082230
The armored lion looks like he's distraught. And the caped lion looks like he just told the most intentionally shitty joke he possibly could. Could only mean a bard dealt psychic damage.

>>22082485
kek. tell us what the lion in the bottom right is up to

>>22082485
I wish I was funny like you

>>22082578
Give us your best shot. This is a judgment-free zone.

>>22082827
The armoured lion looks like he is very cross with the caped lion, perhaps he stole his sweet roll.

In book 20 there's a list of which god supports who.
Hera, Athena, Poseidon, Hermes and Hephaistus fought for the Achaeans while Ares, Apollo, Artemis, Aphrodite, Xanthos and Leto fought for the Trojans.

>>22083014
Made me smile

>>22083526
Trojan god list is pretty lame desu. I’d take Athena any day, even if it was her vs. all others.

>>22083014
I chuckled.

>>22083651
>meanwhile apollo is responsible for just about half the casualties on the achaeans' side notable people or not
That dude was trying way too hard.

>>22083658
Yeah Hera, Athena, and Poseidon limited themselves to influencing stamina/will/etc. Apollo out here takin headshots. What a hardo.

I think being a killer is kind of Apollo's thing. Sure Athena and Ares are war gods, but they can serve that function just by leading or inspiring the soldiers. But Apollo is defined by his use of a weapon. These arrows were made for shooting and that's just what they'll do (even if not always literally, as in the plague the poem starts with).

Book 18 has to be the best book so far. Things are actually happening! Achilles' grief and his return to the battlefield are so dramatic. Thetis's visit to Hephaestus and the description of the shield are also great. I like Hephaestus. I like his robot tripods. Man, a lot of gods seem to owe Thetis big favors. I guess she's just a really cool gal.

It's weird that Hephaestus is married to somebody named Charis instead of Aphrodite though.

>>22083806
Glad you liked it anon, I did too. I also haven’t liked Achilles so far, but somehow I see it as based that he isn’t verbally acknowledging any fault in Patroclus’ death.

Love the end of Book 19 where Achilles gets yet another ominous prophecy of his death, this time from a horse of all places, and he's just like "I know. Shut the fuck up. I don't care." Weirdly reminds me of Balaam who similarly didn't seem surprised when his donkey started talking.

Book 19 today. Achilles suits up.

>>22076374

I finished the last 5 chapters today anon. Patroklus' death tho, it was on him, not taking heed his Lord's words to return to the ships before the they reached the oaktree; but Fate always finds its way to for the tragedy to play.

>>22079103

I was disappointed when I was reading the last few pages, and seeing how much left was there to read that I knew Achilles' death will never be told, and then only to find out again the Odyssey makes no account of it except for a short tale.

Maybe let's take a week break and then start Odyssey?

>>22080309

I just hope somebody would kill this old nigga, it really pains me to hear that I roll my eyes every time this old fart is given a humble bragging moment of his le glorious days, he's so full of himself.

>>22080557
>>22080462

they would just wander about the gates of Death, pretty boring if u ask me, at least that's what Patroklus told Akhilleus

>>22085611
Honestly, I'm planning on finishing Iliad today and starting Odyssey tomorrow because I'm a borderline neet. But I can make the thread whenever people like. What date would you guys like to officially begin? How about the 5th so there is a 3-day break between the two?

>>22085632

Your call, honestly I prefer it to be not less than 3 days though, it has to be long enough for a build-up of excitement(at least for me)..

>>22085632
5th sounds good

>>22085659
I second this

Alrighty, 5th it is. Wait till you guys get to the contest btw, it's peak autismo.

Alrighty, 5th it is. Wait till you guys get to the contest btw, it's peak kino.

>>22085760

>the aiax eats shit episode

im on book 3 :)

>>22086183

>>22086202
kek and bump

On book 21 and feeling bad for Hektors family. He could have avoided his death, saved his wife and son and maybe even the city had he not been so concerned with his pride. Or maybe not because that wasn't his fate.

>>22085760
The second to last chapter where they play a bunch of schoolyard games in lieu of a funeral?

>>22085632
5th is good. I’m not a neet but my Iliad timeline is similar to yours. Ready to start the odyssey

>>22085617
You’ll be glad to know that he appears in the early books of the Odyssey :^)

>>22087805
>schoolyard games
It was serious business, there was honour and golden tripods at stake.

>>22087867
>serious business
Didn’t one of them slip on cow poop for the L?

>>22087805
Schoolyard games and a banquet are the best kind of funeral, though. What kind of asshat wants to look down and see everyone that he cares about be weepy and sad? It's better for them to be happy and striving for their lives to be better in remembrance of you.

Homer really knows how to make me hungry

>>22089091

>>22089065
See >>22088861

Hang in there frens. Today is Book 20, in which Zeus finally unleashes all gods to influence the war however they will.

Achilles kills 14 people in this chapter. In terms of MW2 killstreaks, he unlocked the AC130 three kills ago and is one kill away from an EMP and 11 from a tactical nuke.

>>22090170
Thanks for the stat line based anon

>>22089617
See >>22089065

Why do the gods favor Aeneas so much? It seems like they are all looking out for him.

Is the ennis rees translation okay

>>22090830
Have you tried it at all? Downloaded from libgen?

>>22090931
no i dont have access to that

>>22090794
According to the Aeneid (sequel), because after the war is over Aeneas needs to found Rome

>>22090936
It’s free
libgen.is

>>22090939
doesnt work sorry

>>22090794
He's Aphrodite's son.

>>22090958
What country?

>>22090959
Bad answer. Zeus didn’t spare Serpentdon

>>22090968
True but Aeneas' defining character is his piety and respect for the gods.

>>22090987
Right, so that would be a reason for his saving, rather than the mere fact that he is Aphrodite's son.

>>22091071
Yeah well Zeus is an asshole. Aphrodite is a bit nicer.

>>22091373
Right, but Zeus is the one that spared Anneas, even though he also wanted to spare Sarpedon

>>22091706
Yeah. And the other gods would rather tell Zeus to stuff it than tell Aphrodite to kick rocks. Because Zeus is an asshole. Ya dig?

Achilles being attacked by a bloody river full of people that he killed has got to be the most bizarre image the Iliad has given us. It really feels like we're reaching a climax as the gods get more involved than ever and descend into outright civil war.

>>22091876
But Zeus is the one that saved Aeneas (iirc), not Aphrodite

Book 21 today. Achilles aristeia is interrupted by an epic showdown: Achilles vs. River.

>>22091989
>It really feels like we're reaching a climax as the gods get more involved than ever and descend into outright civil war
Yeah, Athena boxing Ares' ears is hilarious.

>>22093019
Hera's instant shutdown of Artemis as soon as she made her entry and her subsequent running away crying is what really did it for me.

>>22093068
Just further confirmation that Athena is GOATed

>>22089632

And here I thought this was going to be grey-eyes coming in clutch again and shitting on everyone else... turned out disappointingly boring this chapter

>>22092489
What I'm trying to say is no one would object to Aeneas being saved because they don't mind Aphrodite. So if Zeus or anyone for the matter wanted to whisk him away they'd turn a blind eye. But Since Zeus is constantly walking a tightrope to maintain his supremacy he can't get what he wants all the time. So him wanting to save his boy Sarpedon would have had the other gods throwing fits.

A lot of people mistake Zeus being the chief god as him being supremely powerful, which he is significantly more powerful than most of the other gods, but his position is maintained by his combination of strength, cunning and charisma. If they really wanted to they could band together and depose him. He's smart enough to know this and keep his interests mostly safe. Losing Sarpedon isn't so bad when you put it into perspective.

>>22093673
I get the feeling she's Homer's favorite.

Honestly, didn't really like Achilles in this chapter. I get that he's bloodlusted, but he comes across as a dick.

>>22094365
You tryin to say my taste has been manipulated by the hard?

>>22093966
I think it’s supposed to demonstrate the ridiculousness of the gods, compared to the mortals

>>22093981
Ok I understand what you’re saying now. Fair point in a vacuum, but isn’t there something in the text that indicates that they’re not just saving Aeneas to save him, they’re saving him because he has important things left to do. Which Virgil took to mean the founding of Rome

>>22094519
I can't remember if it was in the Iliad. But it was certainly in the Aeneid. Some say Rome was founded be Remus and Romulus. Virgil implies Aeneas had a part in it. Of course Virgil wrote his thing about 7 or so centuries after Homer had written his, which was maybe five or six centuries after the Trojan war is estimated to have happened. So who really knows?

But there's even more reason why Sarpedon didn't make the cut but Aeneas did. Old man Sarp did everything he was supposed to do I guess.

>>22094448
You could say that in almost any chapter desu

Sure has been a while since we saw anything of Helen. Early on it seemed like she was gonna be more of a main character.

>>22095435
Yeah she’s more in the Odyssey than in the Ilid, iirc. But not much in either

Home stretch of the Iliad. Book 22. Achilles vs. Hector.

bumperino

I finished reading the Iliad. I knew that the story of Achilles's heel wasn't in the Iliad but I was expecting his death. I wasn't too disappointed though. Seeing how the Iliad was only the story of the events of a small part of the Trojan war rather than an account of the whole thing I thought the ending was satisfying. The games the Achaeans had after the funeral of Patroklos and the funeral of Hektor closed the stories of the Achaeans and Trojans during this part of the Trojan war well.

>>22097031
Whoa, spoilers my friend.

But yeah, I also liked the end. I am quite impressed by the choices Homer made in telling the Trojan War. Imagine telling the story of WW2 and focusing on two days and on a fight between American generals and not mentioning the nuke or the fact that both of those generals eventually died, one in the war and one right after.

>>22097532
*ten days

>>22097532
Supposedly, the two surviving books were a small portion of a much larger cycle which is now lost.

>>22097537

>>22097537
Oh, then it’s less interesting. Also holy moly this entire story must have been quite the doorstopper

bumperino

so how many of you guys made it to the end? I finished a few days ago

>>22099589
I did

>>22074494
Yeap, Hector was quite the nigger in that regard. And he ran around the city while Achilles was pursuing him.

>>22099589
I'm still following the schedule.

bump

So two people actually finished?

>all these scenes where a Trojan is defeated and begs to be held for ransom instead of killed and the Greeks are like "No way, coward!" and kill him anyway
Man that's fucked up. The implication that this is the virtuous thing to do seems pretty clear. Truly an alien world where people gave out moral lessons like "some things are better than riches, namely murder."

>>22067791
Why do you faggots like Hector? He pussies out when he's about to fight Achilles.

>>22101933
Shit dude I'd want to avoid fighting the biggest swinging dick in the world too. Suicide is badass but there are less painful ways to do it.

>>22101827
I thought the final day was tomorrow, no? My version has 24 chapters.

Imagine being that one woman who's given as a participation trophy in the funeral games whereas the winner gets a tripod worth three times as much. Fucking rekt.

>>22102105
kek

>they can't even have a chariot race without the gods interfering
Sure, the idea that gods influence sporting events is a pretty normal belief, but in this context where they're very humanlike characters, they just seem like meddling dickheads. Just let it be a fair competiton, Apollo! Leave the humans alone for one day.

Today is the final book. Book 24. Achilles and Priam meet. Congratulations to all of you that finished before today or are finishing today.

>>22103640
Did read Iliad earlier this year. Congratz anyways t. >>22103027

>>22101961
Should've thought twice before killing his boyfriend

>>22103640
Have pity on me, oh you /lit/erate ones, for I have been filtered once more. I pray that Athena will hold my hand and drag me to the end of this untrained attempt at running Homer's first marathon.
If I were an Achaian, you would have found me sobbing by my ship with a small arrow in my arm, dying of shame

>>22103640
Up until now, I had only read the Greek philosophers but I think I have discovered I have a love for the classics as a whole. Finished the works of Sophocles before this and now I'm on the Odyssey. Also ordered a neat copy of the Aeneid. Maybe I should take the /clg/pill. Anyway, it was a pleasure bros.

posting in a blessed thread

>>22104120
I kek’d

>>22104434
Great to hear anon. Perhaps one day you and I will cross paths again in an Aeneid reading group.

Ok, I finished.

The first time I read the Iliad, I was surprised by its ending, no death of Achilles, no Trojan Horse, no fall of Troy; it concludes with the funeral of Hector.

I feel that the Iliad is Hector's tale. I know that a lot is happening with other characters, but the story's conclusion with his burial elevates him into the primary protagonist, IMO.

I wonder about the last line, "tamer of horses." What did Homer mean? Is it symbolic of Hector's personality? Is he the type of man who "tames horses?" Or is it a humble moniker, saying that Hector's most remarkable feat was not his battle prowess or lineage but his want/ability to tame horses? Is it something else?

What do you guys think why is Hector, "tamer of horses?"

>>22104820
I just assumed that everyone had an epithet and this is Hector’s desu, no special significance to using this epithet in his eulogy

The ending would've been better if Achilles decided to return Hector's body only after hearing Priam's pleas, rather than just doing it because the gods told him to.

>>22106327
This among many other instances is why I suspect the gods are part of the self in some weird way or at least at some level.
Like for example Aphrodite is Love. When Aphrodite tells you to go fuck your wife I don't really see it as all that different from just being horny for your wife. I think it just sounds stupid to us because we live in a desacralised world.

there is literally no point to this exercise if you aren't reading it in ancient greek

>>22106595
it's over. you waited until we finished to warn us

>>22106577
that was the basis for the bicameral mind theory, or the idea that humans only really achieved true consciousness a few thousand years ago, and that's why works like the Iliad show characters as at the mercy of gods rather than their own agency. It's totally wrong of course, but the process of de-bunking it ended up providing a lot of insight for how early humans processed their emotions

>>22107387
Interesting, thanks for sharing anon

I believe I have to reread this book sometime soon. I read it too fast and I focused more on the plot rather than how it's told since I found some parts a bit difficult to understand. Am I an idiot bros?

>>22107467
Honestly I feel the same way.

>>22107467
Feel the same way

>>22106595
Psued.

There's no point to this exercise unless someone recites the Iliad to you from the 3000-year-old oral tradition, the way Homer intended it to be consumed.

can I catch up if I start now? if not then can I join the Odyssey discussion without reading the illiad?

>>22107678
I read the odyssey before I read the Iliad and had no issues with it. The odyssey is much more "self contained" than the Iliad where you don't need too much background to understand whats going on.
Also are we still going to have a discussion for the Odyssey and if so when are we starting?

>>22107387
So in this interpretation the gods' order to return the body would be, what, Achilles's conscience?

>>22107757
Odyssey is starting on the 5th iirc.

The last 1/4 of it was pretty cool, but I found more than half the poem tedious. It really makes me appreciate Paradise Lost telling an epic story that's actually well paced, where almost every book gives you something different.

>>22107387
>It's totally wrong of course
Well, why is it wrong?

The most interesting thing to me is the portrayal of the gods. One might wonder why the gods are even in the story; you could remove everything divine or supernatural while keeping the plot basically intact. But I think that in any war it was so taken for granted that the gods took sides that, considering the Muses could inform him of it, Homer's story would've been considered incomplete without the gods' perspective. It's fascinating how elusive they are. They always appear in disguise or in dreams or invisible except to one person. In a way you could call that realistic. Gods don't actually appear to crowds, even though in a lot of myths they do. Instead people have dreams and visions or more often they simply interpret things that happen, like a plague, as divine interference. They're also weaker than expected. Helen and Priam see through their disguises and they're vulnerable to wounds from Diomedes. And even though Zeus is a level above the rest, able to defy fate if he wanted to (but he chooses not to), he can be distracted and outwitted by the other gods if not overpowered.

>>22108248
It’s not

>>22108248
For one thing, humans were already spread all over the world a few thousand years ago and no one today has a bicameral mind. It doesn't seem likely that every population would experience that change independently.

>>22108310
>no one today has a bicameral mind
You would be surprised, many people basically still do depending on where you live. We have just built language up to work around it. We are quite blind to it.

Should someone create a thread to recruit more readers for the Odyssey?

>>22107759
meant to reply to >>22106577

>>22108324
You’re a big Daniel Dennett fan?

>>22106327
>>22102886
The Greeks believed that man was constantly being influenced by the divine. The idea that he'd suddenly be afflicted by "conscience" is completely at odds with this. After all, how could he suddenly decide "Actually, I'm going to be sad that I murdered this dude who had it coming", especially if the Gods set his rage in motion in the first place?