/lit/ - Literature

is sumerian study welcome here? i find the morpheme grammar interesting

RULE I:
NO LLPSI ARGUMENTS

What's the difference between the usage of the accusative gerund and the accusative supine with verbs of motion to express purpose? When do you use one vs the other?

>Ad pugnandum venimus
or
>Pungatum venimus

>>22052525
Think of any accusative gerund as expressing "for [this so-called action]." In this case:
>ad pugnandum venimus
We go for fighting / to fight.
The one with the accusative supine is roughly the same, although I'd limit it to the English infinitive, i.e., "we come *to fight*."

>>22052546
Is one more proper for the use of expressing purpose than the other? I'm asking about Latin composition more so than how to translate it into English.

Hello, anons. At what point (syntax comprehension and reading levels) a non-classics scholar who works with classical languages should risk a whole work translation intended for publishing? The specific cases are translations of works language/classics only trained academics rarely venture into such as philosophy and science/mathematics texts.

How can I teach myself to enjoy poetry? I just cannot 'hear' meter at all. I can sit down with the set of rules and painstakingly mark long and short syllables, but that does nothing to help me 'get' a poem. When I listen to a reading, I have no way to tell wether it even is a poem or just prose.

My English brain just says 'no rhyme? must be prose'.

>>22052598
that's weird since most great english poetry is unrhymed, maybe try with that to hear meter

>>22052325
It was the classical language of Mesopotamia (Akkadian was the vernacular for some time before it, too, was replaced by languages like Assyrian and turned into a classical language of that particular civilisation), so I'd say absolutely.
It falls into the same category as Egyptian in that learning it is certainly an interesting pursuit, though not as gratifying as learning Latin, Greek, Classical Chinese, Sanskrit, Hebrew, Arabic, Persian... due to the smaller corpus.

If you could pick any lost classical work to be magically rediscovered tomorrow, what would it be?

>>22053038
Linear A (and the credit for cracking it as well).

>>22053038
Claudius' works on Etruscan history and languages

>>22052598
that one book 6 of the iliad recitation video on youtube did it for me, in fact, even before I knew greek
I'd set it in the background and recited the aeneid along with it until I learned the meter by heart, I only scanned the first 3 books of the aeneid, the rest I can now immediately read in meter

>>22052525
IIRC the former slowly overtakes the latter in usage as you move forward in the classical period and beyond, it's also a more general expression whereas the latter only works in more static constructions of motion

how does i learne latin und greek?

>>22052930
>most great english poetry is unrhymed,

And it sounds like prose to me. I have never understood the point of blank verse.

>>22054034
sexo with Muses

>>22053940
>the latter only works in more static constructions of motion
What do you mean by static constructions? Sorry if this is a dumb question. I'm still learning syntax and constructions. Trying to understand when to use the supine and the gerund respectively and I appreciate your answer.

>>22053038
The lost parts of the Satyricon. Originally it was an epic work longer than the bible

Is French considered a Classical language and allowed on /clg/?

>>22054957
Old or Middle French. For modern French go to /lang/.

>>22054915
I just mean fixed/idiomatic expressions with certain specific verbs of motion like eo or mitto or venio(e.g petitum eo aquam, mitto aliquem pacem petitum, venio res repetitum, etc...) vs the ad + gerundive construction which is far more general to express purpose and goes with all sorts of verbs

What mystic Latin text is best for rereading, reading backwards, analyzing for hidden meanings, etc?

>>22054989
Ok, that makes sense. Thank you.

>>22054998
you picked the wrong language fool

Good books to start Ancient Egyptian?

I fell for the memes and got Italian Athenaze. Luckily, I also know Italian. Does anyone know if it has been or is being translated? If not, I will probably translate all the italian and post it somewhere online once I'm finished with it.

>>22055348
I think someone translated the end of chapter explanations, but I'm not sure about the Italian glosses in the chapters themselves.

>>22053038
>If you could pick any lost classical work to be magically rediscovered tomorrow, what would it be?
The stone autograph of the Torah
Deut 27
>1 And Moses and the elders of Israel commanded the people, saying, Observe all of the commandment that I command you this day.
>2 And it will be, on the day that you cross the Jordan to the land the Lord, your God, is giving you, that you shall set up for yourself huge stones, and plaster them with lime.
>3 When you cross, you shall write upon them all the words of this Torah, in order that you may come to the land which the Lord, your God, is giving you, a land flowing with milk and honey, as the Lord, God of your forefathers, has spoken to you.
>4 And it will be, when you cross the Jordan, that you shall set up these stones, [regarding] which I command you this day on Mount Ebal, and you shall plaster them with lime.
>5 And there, you shall build an altar to the Lord, your God, an altar of stones. You shall not wield any iron upon them.
>6 You shall build the altar of the Lord, your God, out of whole stones. And on it, you shall offer up burnt offerings to the Lord, your God.
>7 And you shall slaughter peace offerings, and you shall eat there, and you shall rejoice before the Lord, your God.
>8 You shall write upon the stones all the words of this Torah, very clearly.

>>22054957
It's as >>22054971 said.
If you're interested, E. Einhorn wrote a great concise handbook for the purpose of learning "the Old French of northern France and England as a language in its own right". It took me 16 days until I was able to read the Song of Roland in the old Norman dialect, as well as Villehardouin's Conquest of Constantinople and Joinville's Life of Saint Louis in their Champagne dialect.
Useful online resources include the Anglo-Norman dictionary, as well as the extremely comprehensive dictionary by Frédéric Godefroy, found on: https://micmap.org/dicfro/introduction/dictionnaire-godefroy
This page also includes specialised lexicons for many of the major Old French works (Song of Roland, Chrétien de Troyes, Roman de la Rose, Roman de Renart, Roman de Tristan), but you would need some knowledge of French to peruse them and the Godefroy dictionary.

>>22055971
How did you learn Old French (and so fast), anon? I know of that Einhorn book and I know modern French pretty well, but I don't know how to learn a medieval language for the life of me. How are you supposed to use Einhorn's book?

>>22052596
You probably won't get published for any translation ever if you aren't a Classicist.

>>22056018
Einhorn's book is meant to be used like Wheelock's Latin. You go over the grammar parts and read them carefully, memorise the new words introduced at the end of each chapter and then do some quick exercises where you have to apply what you learnt over the chapter.
The grammar is rather simple. Old French is an inflectional language but it only has a two-case system, three noun classes and four adjective classes. Unlike modern French, it has a neuter gender, but it's the easiest to decline.
The tenses and moods are exactly the same as in modern French, but Old French often uses the perfect/past historic and the imperfect subjunctive, which have become rare nowadays. I thought the hardest part was wrapping my head around vocalic alternations, where you have to pay attention to stress patterns to understand why some perfects seem irregular at first glance.
Once you've learnt all of that it's honestly smooth sailing, and since the chapters are pretty short you can read one every day and have the grammar down in 16 days like I did. Afterwards you have to do some input, and admittedly that part was easy for me since I know modern French, but there are false friends and words that have since disappeared from the language, so that's where the dictionaries I mentioned earlier come in handy. The book certainly does a great job at preparing you for the Song of Roland's medieval idiom, but vocabulary is an entirely different story, so if I weren't a French speaker I probably wouldn't be able to say that I learnt it in 16 days.

>>22056104
Thank you so much. I am going to get Einhorn's book through my uni library. From what you're saying I should be able to read Old French in no more than a month, especially since I have a bilingual copy of La Chanson de Roland.
Also, do you have any tips on pronunciation? Should it just be pronounced like modern French?

>>22056190
No worries. I actually have that edition of Roland too, Ian Short is pretty based.
Regarding pronunciation, Einhorn's book covers that too. Old French is essentially read like it's written, with some exceptions like C being read as [ts], Z being read the same way when it's final but [dz] at the start of a word. French is notable among Romance languages in that it retained the H consonant all the way until the Middle French period. It also has three vowels for the letter E, which you will see depends on things like etymology and surrounding consonants.
If I had a tip to give, it would be to pay attention to long vowels so you can better enjoy the laisses, the type of stanzas used in Roland.

>>22056050
well, I majored in philosophy but have a minor in classics. Nevertheless, I consider myself a history of philosophy/science scholar. In any case, I am working on the translations of two late medieval works, one is a philosophical treatise and the other a mathematical text. But do you think the same restrictions do apply to medieval and early modern Latin texts? I have yet to see a medieval mathematical work be translated by a medievalist. Usually it's people researching the history of mathematics, mostly mathematicians, historians and the odd philosopher, who translate such works.

Does anyone else make their own tools for practice?

>>22056782
What language did you write it in?

>>22056794
Initially, I wrote python scripts to pull data. Then I wrote a javascript quiz app because I knew nothing about UX. But now I'm using swift because I'm a mac fag.

How many daily lingqs to be a true patrician, and to be considered an autistic wizard?

>>22052598
Read it out loud and keep scanning

What's your favorite participle?

>>22056782
I have a shell script flashcard program which loads specified word lists & has a "add word to skip list" for words I've mastered.

I wrote it as an alternative to quizlet, as I like using flashcards to learn vocab. very minimal, runs in a linux terminal (I'm no coder)

Where can I buy the Illiad and the Odyssey in ancient greek? I want a physical copy

>>22056370
If you don't have a PhD or aren't diverse, you can't get published. I would imagine even the diversity thing wouldn't help you. Publishers have little interest in publishing translations in the area you are interested in. I would just self-publish and try to develop a fan base / cult of personality around yourself.

>>22054957
based Schopenhauer-poster, where is this from? In the Parerga-excerpt on languages he didn't mention Egger claiming French to be a classical language.

>>22058213
Teubners are one possible basic choice

This >>22058213 or an Oxford Classical Texts edition.
I have an old 1920's Teubner edition of Odyssey and a newer OCT Iliad. I prefer the Teubner due to it's size.

>>22059753
>>22058903
Thanks a lot!

>>22053038
Babyloniaca by Berossus, it would give a lot of information on how late mesopotamian religion worked, and how it was reinterpreted. Also Sanchuniathons work on phoenician history, additional points for it found in original language, as we don't have a lot of words in phoenician corpus (and the language is very similar to Hebrew).

Guys what’s the easiest classical language one can teach themselves as a hobby? I can already speak Italian and I’m thinking of learning Latin or Greek.

>>22059907
Latin syntax is harder than greek syntax. However, for a native romance speaker, latin vocabulary and morphology is much easier than greek's.

>>22059907
>>22059932
And as for method, drill the declensions and basic verb conjugations until you memorize a good chunk of them and start reading and translating sentences and then paragraphs and then whole portions of text from classical works. Read a late medieval/early modern latin or greek text in between.

>>22057778
I'd say the heavy use of participles in of itself is what makes Greek very beautiful to me

>>22059932
and also Greek verbs are far more irregular than Latin + a whole other mood (middle)

>>22058213
Loeb
Teubner
OCT (Oxford)
Reclam in Europe
Germany has a many publishers of bilingual classical texts, used book stores near college campuses have them by the boatload

Teubner and OCT are the gold standards. Loeb and Reclam have facing translations and are cheap, the former in English the latter in German. Reclam does have some monolingual versions.
Don't buy new, used texts are plentiful and cheap, especially of Homer. If you don't have access to a good used bookstore go to abebooks.
As the other anon pointed out Teubners are slightly larger than OCT though I find the text layout in OCTs to be better. Teubner has better critical notes. Pic related is two editions side-by-side, OCT on left, Teubner on right. Both are from Statius' Thebaid, book V, centered roughly around line 440. You can clearly see the difference in presentation. Teubner has fewer lines per page on average but it excels in the critical text in the footnotes.
From my experience Teubners tend to be worse in terms of physical quality. I own a couple and have read/handled dozens more - they are particularly prone to spine issues. Handle with care. They also are usually quite expensive, odd considering Teubner was originally founded to provide cheap books to students and laymen seeking to read the classics.
Also from my experience newer OCTs have some quality issues as well. They changed the printing method, paper and glue, I think sometime in the late 90s or early 00s. Older ones are solid as rocks though. I have several pre-1960 that are in great shape and showing no signs of weakness. The oldest is a book of the comedies of Terence from 1908 which aside from some slight cover wear is in fantastic condition.
Don't buy print on demand garbage. You will only come to regret it.

>>22052322
So Peter Jones and Keith Sidwell claim in Reading Latin that, in their experience, it takes longer (for a native English-speaker) to become proficient in Latin than in Ancient Greek. Do you think that is true, your experience? Because I would have expected the opposite.

>>22060966
Inverse difficulty curve
Assuming one starts from the same point and approaches both with the same studiousness and zeal authentic Greek texts will be read more easily than Latin. This is due to a number of factors - articles, more specific moods, more tenses, syntax, etc.

I'm learning Latin right now and would like to learn Ancient Greek in the future. When will I know I'm ready to start learning AG? I feel like I'll never be "ready"; Latin just gets harder and harder. I'm in a slow plateau currently with my Latin so maybe now is a good time.
Are there any anons learning two languages at the same time?

>>22061542
>are there any anons learning two languages at the same time?
yeah. ancient Greek and modern French. I have been studying Latin for ~4 years and intend to continue independent study sometime this summer (as I will continue formal studies in the fall), but I'm putting it to the side for now. every day I've been trying to get through a chapter of « Le Français par la Méthode Nature », a chapter from an French grammar in English, and vocab cards, while going through at least a couple pages of Plato's Republic and go back over AG grammar
>I'm in a slow plateau with my Latin
>Latin just gets harder and harder
what are you doing to study? the full extent of your progress in a language isn't necessarily obvious in the present. unless you're retarded, which you wouldn't even have been able to write your post if you were, if you are doing some combination of studying grammar, morphology, vocab, reading material that pushes your abilities - and doing so consistently, you will get better
>maybe now is a good time
>when will I know I'm ready to start learning AG?
there are certain similarities grammatically and vocabulary-wise that can be beneficial to know when picking up ancient Greek after Latin, on the whole I don't think it's that significant. it's certainly not going to make or break your chances of properly learning ancient Greek: plenty of people do fine with it without having studied a lick of Latin or any other second language. so, imo, any time is a good time to pick it up, as long as you have to time to study it and are motivated enough to keep up with it.

>>22061542
>Are there any anons learning two languages at the same time?
I am. I'm kind of in a jack of all trades master of none situation, which has simply arisen from taking advantage of opportunities as they came to me. You'd think that learning two languages at the same time is insane, but it is doable. Tons of students have learned Latin and Greek at the same time. You can too. I'd prefer to be at the late beginner/intermediate stage of a language to start learning another, but that doesn't always work out.

I'm almost done with Wheelock's Latin and it's been a pretty good course. Why do Dowling and the bald man hate it?

New latincringe just dropped
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kx6UYQCcUmw

>>22061542
I'm learning 11 languages at the same time. I had so little time for them that I had to put them on alternating cycles. If there's a will, there's a way, Anon.

I'm slavanon who recently decided to learn old church slavonic. Can anyone recommend me some easy online resource for learning this language (like online dictionaries, yt videos etc). I can understand most of the language, but I'd love to know more about it's grammar. My father never learned this language, but he knows russian, and he claims to understand nearly everything in texts he read.

>>22060966
Also, I'm working my way through Wheelock, about half way through, and would like some reading practice on paper (not a computer) to supplement my studies. I think of either getting Reading Latin (text and vocabulary only) or three of Geoffrey Steadman's commentaries (Ritchie’s Fabulae Faciles, Fabulae Ab Urbe Condita and Cicero’s 1st Catilinarian). Which do you think is best for me?

>>22061542
I started with Greek when my Latin was good enough to have read some Caesar and Sallust as well as the first book of the Aeneid. But generally speaking if you are done with grammar so to speak and you are just reading/translating already you shouldn't have a problem starting with Greek too, just try to not slack with Latin, maybe do few days a week of Latin and the rest Greek.

bvmp

the cambridge books are great if you're beginners-intermediate for learning new words
I now know the verb to play dice "tablissō"

>>22063054
Yeah no. Use LLPSI for reading practice. You will still be filtered by most things after Wheelock's and still be in the mindset of treating Latin as an autistic puzzle to translate and not a language to be read (a habit which LLPSI will help you undo)

>Plato's Repulbic, 341c2
>ὥσπερ, ἔφην ἐγώ, εἴ με ἔροιο εἰ ἐξαρκεῖ σώματι εἶναι σώματι...
my notes say that the second σώματι is part of the predicate with εἶναι in a dependent clause, which by itself makes sense, but says it is "drawn into" the dative by the preceding dative. I believe I have seen this with relative clauses before, being "drawn into" the same case as their antecedent (assumed or explicit), but what exactly do you call this phenomenon?

>>22065794
Nigga, just ask chatgpt lmao

>>22065797
it started talking about 'synthesis' and then described parts of the sentence incorrectly (e.g. εἴ is a relative pronoun and με is its antecedent). I found it in Smythe, it's called 'attraction' and seems not to have been uncommon. it's described as "attraction of predicate nouns with the infinitive to the case of the object of the governing verb". so yeah, fuck chatgpt

>>22061542
You never cease to learn a language, but assuming that you mean actively doing exercises or something similar, I'm learning Akkadian (which I feel pretty comfortable with), Arabic, Old Church Slavonic, and sometimes Jewish Aramaic (I'm just reading the Talmud Bavli, but it counts as a language).

>>22065891
What a fucking chad

>>22062858
No one here knows Old Church Slavonic, but good luck you for trying.

>>22065852
>I found it in Smythe
Why would you not go there first instead of asking on 4chan? Smyth is the best resource for Greek outside of a dictionary.

Hello frens, I'm based retard here I know little Latin and less Greet etc
Anyways can you guys just recommend me a few based verses of Latin poetry?
I'm writing something and just need 3-4 short Latin poems. They don't actually need to be the entire poem either really just like one sentence each y'know.
For example I really like the line
>Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori
or whatever it is. So just some examples like that. They don't need to be super famous or anything just looking for a few /based/ or whatever cool buzzword you want to use examples of Latin poetry

>>22066317
if you don't know the grammatical term, trying to look it up in Smyth can be quite the goose chase. I thought perhaps someone here would tell me more readily, but on a whim went to Smyth anyways and happened to find it in the A's

我時讀文言之聖經。人語我曰:此非真文言與!為何告之為非真之文言乎?

>>22066618
haven't dabbled too much into Latin poetry yet aside from the Aeneid, from there I remember
>Tu regere imperio populos Romane memento, parcere subiectis et debellare superbos
but also the famous "audentes Fortuna iuvat"

>>22065905
thank you king, I really needed this
>>22066177
I've got one advice for for learning OCS, that my father gave me (it works only for Slavs), start by opening the bible in OCS and reading it, check every word you don't understand, after a few weeks you will understand nearly everything.

>>22067204
חביבי לצערי אני לא מבין אותך, אבל אני אנצל את ההזדמנות ואשל: האם מישהו פה מדבר עברית ברמה מספיק טובה כדי לקרוא ספרים?

>>22066879
Nothing will cement those ideas in your mind more than that 'goose chase'
The other things you read on the way or pique your interest all add up. Eventually you will hardly need to reference Smyth

>>22068759
that's fair, but I do that at my own leisure anyways. I have a schedule to follow, and at the time it didn't include spending potentially 30+ to potentially not even find what I was looking for. also I'm gay, if that matters

>>22068785
>30+
minutes

bump

>>22067867
>(it works only for Slavs)
If you're autistic enough it will work for anyone, I guess.

>>22070582
It could probably work for non-Slavic people, but I think it will be less effective, than learning the grammar, which is very difficult for non-Slavic speakers.

should I read Hesiod before the Odyssey? I already almost finished the Iliad and I was thinking it will maybe be helpful, considering it's also not much it seems, 2000-3000 hexameters

>>22071704
the Theogony will help you recognize some of the gods that appear/are mentioned in the Odyssey and place them in a more organized lineage of gods, but it's not crucial to it. the Iliad and Apollodorus' Library are the two major works that would make reading the Odyssey particularly easier, but the Iliad should suffice imo

What a time to be alive

>>22072139
weird it got one dual wrong

>>22072139
>nominative dual
>τὼ τέχναι
>not τὼ τέχνᾶ
what a time indeed: an AI can't do a basic google search

>>22072304
>>22072139
I just asked chatgpt whether ἡ τέχνη had dual forms and it said it didn't. I looked up "τὼ τέχνα" and found an instance of it in Plato's Republic 5 seconds later

Classical Greek literature is richer than classical Latin's, but when the matter is medieval literature, medieval Latin offers more than Byzantine Greek. Do you anons agree?

>>22072781
I've delved into medieval Latin literature way more than Greek, but my experience and what I hear others say bears your sentiment out. most of the Latin literature we have, afaik, is post-classical

Miraris veteres, Vacerra, solos
nec laudas nisi mortuos poetas.
ignoscas petimus, Vacerra: tanti
non est, ut placeam tibi, perire

Starting to get the hang of scansion. But it feels like a purely analytical exercise and isn't helping me appreciate poetry at all.

I feel like that Chinese room thought experiment. I can apply rules and get the right answer, but I have no understanding.

>>22072996
look into rhetorical devices, work on your understanding of the reconstructed phonology of whatever language(s) you're referring to, and look for phonetic patterns (e.g. alliteration or assonance) in lines. also consider word pictures and how the physical structure of a line might coincide with the actual subject matter (e.g. in line 7 of book 1 of the Iliad Agamemnon and Achilles are completely apart and are separated by Agamemnon being a king/lord and Achilles being god-like). Ovid does this a fair bit ime

>>22073026
Alliteration and assonance are easy to spot. Poetic devices are beyond my current scope. I just want to be able to read a few lines of poetry and understand why it is poetry and not prose.

I'm still trying to understand how hexameters are different from prose. I know the rules for long and short vowels, but I can't imagine how they sound. And if most of your feet can be either dactyls or spondees, how can there be a consistent rhythm?

>>22073067
Dactyls and spondees have the same length. Whether two shorts or a long the rhythm is the same. It's like two eighth notes and a quarter note in music.
Tons of English poetry is in iambic pentameter and that is much more fluid and loose than dactylic hexameter.

>>22073084
>Dactyls and spondees have the same length.
Ok.
>Whether two shorts or a long the rhythm is the same. It's like two eighth notes and a quarter note in music.
Fucking what? Clearly I have no idea what rhythm even means?

>Tons of English poetry is in iambic pentameter and that is much more fluid and loose than dactylic hexameter.

English poetry rhymes. That's a huge difference.

>>22073026
>alliteration and assonance are easy to spot
I meant to add that it's not simply about that, but also how they pertain to the poem as well. for instance, I can't remember which one - either the one about Lesbia's dead bird or his death brother - but in one of Catullus' poems I read some time ago he used a lot of assonance, specifically a lot of o words, which in the context would seem to mimic lamenting (which made sense given the poem)
>understand why it is poetry and not prose
>understand how hexameters are different from prose
I'm not exactly sure what you mean, but if you mean that question in the most basic sense, prose doesn't have meter. it's the closest thing to a normal speaking register that you find between prose, poetry, and tragedy.
>I know the rules for long and short vowels, but I can't imagine how they sound. And if most of your feet can be either dactyls or spondees, how can there be a consistent rhythm?
to add to what the other anon has said, the length of a dacylic hexameter verse (i.e. line) will always be the same length - 6 feet - but the cadence or rhythm might feel different. you could hypothetically fill a line with al spondees, and it would feel drawn out; or you could have a normal dactyl for all 6, and it would have a more "forward-marching" cadence

>>22073128
>>22073067

>>22073094
>English poetry rhymes
retard alert
Drop Latin and stick to Dr. Seuss

>>22072781
Cicero would agree with you regarding classical literature.

>>22073094
Though much is taken, much abides; and though
We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are,
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

>>22073128
>I'm not exactly sure what you mean, but if you mean that question in the most basic sense, prose doesn't have meter. it's the closest thing to a normal speaking register that you find between prose, poetry, and tragedy.

What I mean is, if you gave me a few lines from Caesar and a few lines from Virgil, and asked me which one was poetry and which one was prose, I would have to spend ten minutes carefully marking syllables to figure out which is which. If you gave me a few lines of Edgar Allan Poe and a few lines of Edward Gibbon, the difference would be obvious as soon as I read them.

>to add to what the other anon has said, the length of a dacylic hexameter verse (i.e. line) will always be the same length - 6 feet - but the cadence or rhythm might feel different. you could hypothetically fill a line with al spondees, and it would feel drawn out; or you could have a normal dactyl for all 6, and it would have a more "forward-marching" cadence

This is part of the problem. If your meter scheme is this free, how is it even a coherent poem?

>>22073155
>What I mean is, if you gave me a few lines from Caesar and a few lines from Virgil, and asked me which one was poetry and which one was prose, I would have to spend ten minutes carefully marking syllables to figure out which is which. If you gave me a few lines of Edgar Allan Poe and a few lines of Edward Gibbon, the difference would be obvious as soon as I read them.
I see. it's just a fact that we grew up in a context where being able to readily and accurately make that disctinction will take some conscious effort. you'll never be like a learned Greek or Roman in that sense, but that's not a bad thing imo. 1. we can easily look up a given work and what kind of literature it is, 2. we can easily look up an author and see what kind of literature they wrote so that, without looking up the specific nature of a given work, you can try out different meters you've learned and see whether any of them fit, 3. with enough time you can get down any meter. I had reservations about reading the Iliad last semester, but through a little bit of work outside of class I became able to easily do metrical calculations in real time to understand the proper meter of most lines on the first go - and I don't consider myself particularly smart
>This is part of the problem. If your meter scheme is this free, how is it even a coherent poem?
yes, it's not "coherent" in the sense that every single line has exactly the same rhythm, but again there are various metrical parameters which gives it quite a bit of coherence already; and most lines added up, in my experience, have the same rhythm. part of the variation in rhythm is part of the poetic experience

>>22073186
>it's just a fact that we grew up in a context where being able to readily and accurately make that disctinction will take some conscious effort. you'll never be like a learned Greek or Roman

So do I just give up all hope of appreciating ancient poetry? Why has everyone been going on for thousands of years about how great of a poet Virgil is if they are as tone deaf as I am? Clearly the problem is me, not everyone else.

>>22073148
Why is your prose full of pointless line breaks?

>>22073198
>So do I just give up all hope of appreciating ancient poetry?
I genuinely don't mean to be rude, but I just justified why you don't have to lose hope. it's all about your expectations. I'm not saying you have to have any expectations, but they don't have to be as strict as yours clearly are atm. perfectionism can be a cancer and keeps you from appreciating something that may be extremely meaningful, even if you can't appreciate it like, again, an ancient Greek or Roman. it's not a necessary conclusion that that is bleak - that's a choice.
>Why has everyone been going on for thousands of years about how great of a poet Virgil is if they are as tone deaf as I am? Clearly the problem is me, not everyone else.
how long have you been studying Latin poetry? how many hours roughly a day? why? how many lines would you say you've gone over? sometimes people may want to like a form of literature but the reality isn't for them. maybe that's you. or maybe, and I mean this seriously, you just need to put in more time and effort and perhaps switch up your study habits a little too.

>>22073218
I thought just being able to recognize poetry was pretty low as far as expectations go. I'm happy to keep putting more time and effort in. I guess I'm just looking for more practical advice than just 'read moar, lol', or 'learn scansion', since I've been at this on and off for years.

>>22066618
>I know little Latin and less Greet etc
A man of culture, I see.

>>22073235
>just being able to recognize poetry
I don't mean to be nit-picky, so correct me at any time, but your comment about "spending ten minutes to figure out whether a few lines from Virgil or Caesar are prose or poetry", and your response to my comment about not being able to understand/appreciate a classical work of poetry like an ancient Greek or Roman by asking whether you should lose all hope made me think you were talking about approximating poetic comprehension of an ancient Greek or Roman. obviously it's fair to say you want to shorten your analysis of a few lines down from 10 minutes
>I guess I'm just looking for more practical advice than just 'read moar, lol', or 'learn scansion', since I've been at this on and off for years.
well what has your studying looked like thus far?

>>22073198
Brother I don't speak neither Latin nor Greek, but I know Hebrew, Arabic and Akkadian on a level that enables me to enjoy the poetry (even if I have to use dictionary). I want to give you a unique tip: Learn a poem by heart - choose something that you enjoy (either because of translation that you've liked, because you think that it has nice rhymes etc), start with something short, for me it was psalms, some of them are very short. First try to understand it in it's original language, and then learn to recite it. Now you remember new words, and subconsciously you understand the grammar better. Then try with something else, maybe you can even learn part of Enneid? It really helps, and also is an amazing thing to impress your friends and family

Medieval Hebrew poetry was wild.

> There's nothing wrong in wanting a woman,
> and loving girls is hardly a sin -
> but whether or not they're pretty or pure,
> Arabia's daughters are what you should look for.
> Stay far away from the Spanish Christians,
> although they're fair and bright as the sun,
> for they'll provide neither comfort nor ease,
> even with shawls and silken sleeves:
> their dresses are always covered with mud,
> as their hems are dragged through dung and crud.
> Their minds are empty from heartless whoring -
> when it comes to seduction, they know not a thing.
> But the Arab woman's grace is her glory,
> ravishing spirits, banishing worry.
> And whether or not she's wearing her clothes,
> she looks as though she's decked out in gold.
> She'll give you pleasure when the day arrives,
> for in lewdness's ways and desire she's wise,
> her legs gripped tightly around your head,
> crying out Lord!! - and raising the dead.
> The lover who opts for the Christian feast
> is just like a man who'd lie with a beast.

>>22075055
where is this from

>>22075152
Todros ben Judah Halevi Abulafia, translation is by Peter Cole.

>>22075179
Can you post the original? I'd love to read it in Hebrew. Maybe we can talk a little bit about the texts, as latianons and greekanons do all the time

>>22055413
you can find a reddit post that just has the italian athenaze PDF with english translated glosses, but it lacks the grammar sections.

>>22072781
yeah. I wonder how different it would be if the byzantine state wasn't so unstable though.

>>22075784
> Maybe we can talk a little bit about the texts, as latianons and greekanons do all the time
Sorry, my Hebrew isn't up to the task yet.
> Can you post the original?
That I can help with. Posting it as an image, since 4chan fucks up the formatting.
I've got it (as well as the translation) from the Andalusian anthology The Dream of the Poem. There are other fun poems in there, but normally they're not at outspoken as Todros Abulafia's.
He reminds me of Catullus, down to the way his works barely managed to survive in a single manuscript (that turned up, in this case, in Hong Kong!)

I just reached the end of LLPSI Familia Romana and realized I don't have a pdf of Roma Aeterna and the only link I could find of it on the archive was siezed by the FBI.
Does anyone have an updated pdf link for Roma Aeterna?

>>22078055
spoonfeeding the babby
https://easyupload.io/g5e392

>>22078195
benedictus tibi

>>22075055
>her legs gripped tightly around your head,
> crying out Lord!! - and raising the dead.
There's no way this is medieval, someone translate the original autistically and tell me if any license is being used here

Does anyone have that chart that lists all the llpsi books and the order you should read them in? It was in the form of a timeline

>>22079679

Does anyone else ever day dream about living the simple life of a medieval monk?

If you weren't a noble, it was probably the best sort of life available to you. You could do nothing but study, read, and copy ancient works all day. You could literally be one of the few people in your barbarian kingdom who knew who Cicero was

>>22079702
Well, I get where you are come from and I too have this fantasy sometimes. But maybe this would require just a little less luck than to be born a minor noble back then. First, most religious orders were about non-intellectual work, their monks worked exclusively to maintain their monastic house and to help the poor and sick. And if you managed to enter a more scholarly order, such as Franciscans, you would have to prove you are bright enough to be sent to an university and be allowed to touch books as most of franciscan monks were doing menial labor too. Only a handful of orders, such as the dominicans, recruited solely on intellectual potential. I am saying all this to hint that maybe you could get a quiet contemplative life in our times too, since it's never been easy. You could be a highschool teacher, a librarian, a night watchman and disconnect from news, etc and focus on learning living a simple life.

bump

thread feels slower kinda like my own effort lately, I've been taking up programming again so I don't have as much time posting here and reading

Could someone please translate what's written in the facade?

>>22081708
firs row seem to be phrases taken from different early medieval christian hymns, Vexilla Regis Prodeunt, Crux Fidelis, both by the same author https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venantius_Fortunatus
last row is paraphrasing from Matthew 20:18-19

>>22081787
Thanks, man. Currently visiting this city and was curious what it said.

>>22053038
Origines by Cato the Elder.

live

>>22075055
>>22077615
Okay I've read it. I like it, the rhyme is nice. One thing I didn't enjoy in the translation is the term Christian Spanish girl, the word spanish is never used. Also the christians are refered to as edomites, it's a standard כינוי for christians

off to re-read another 300 lines of the last book of the Aeneid, tomorrow I may very well finish it, bout time lads

>>22083630
how long has it taken you to get to that point? what are your reading/study sessions typically like? how long each day? I might make my way to the Iliad by the end of the summer, and have my own ways of studying, but I'm open to updating/improving them

>>22052322
Does anyone have any resources on learning ancient Egyptian? Asking for a friend

>>22084015
I began way ago with the Aeneid two years ago but then I had also started studying ancient Greek and reading other Latin too until I got back to it around February of this year with a good baggage of extra experience with it. At that point I had read and scansioned manually the first 3 books. Then I started following my current schedule, which ideally is Latin every other day(I read Greek the other days), divide each book into blocks of 300-400 lines and read those twice a day, first time in the afternoon to understand it, second time before bed, then after I have read a whole book, I reread it at once paying more attention to the meter. So effectively I can say I read the thing at least thrice in total. I'm doing the same thing with the Iliad in parallel.
For the Iliad I'm using an interlinear edition mostly for the vocabulary, for the Aeneid just an old translation some times to fill some gaps but for the most only a basic dictionary.
So overall I read books 4 to 12 in few months of effort every other day, though of course back then I had spent more time on the first 3 which I guess is where someone would get used to Virgil and his style, I remember struggling a lot initially.

ΒΑΜΠ

Homo sapiens non urinat in ventum

>>22052322
>The average /lit/ user thinks Jowett is a good translator of Plato
Grim.

>>22087126
Don’t care. Still love Jowett.

bump

can someone tell me how to learn latin (in italian?) i don't want english resources.

>>22088717
well I'm Italian too but when I started Latin I did jump on the first english book I stumbled upon, Wheelock's, then I also got an old Italian book from my grandma, can't even recall the name
that being said give a try to LLPSI, if you are native speaker in Italian you should be able to make big gains initially, then get a reader ASAP, either the ones naturally following from LLPSI >>22079693 but also works like Lhomond's De Viris Illistribus, a classic for learners

>>22088793
i just feel like it would be dumb to learn latin in english. english speakers don't even know the concept of gendered nouns. surely an english textbook would focus on explaining that completely foreign grammar first and foremost, instead, an italian one could focus on intuitively showcasing the similarities and differences between our languages.
anyway familia romana has an italian version. i just checked. so i will get that. i also plan on getting "latine disco". but we'll see.

>>22088845
I agree idk what got to my mind, I never studied either Latin or Greek in high school so I just went straight into whatever first result Google threw at me, among other reasons also because of how easy it is to find the pdfs of english books compared to Italian ones in general

just finished the Aeneid, bretty good, though the final seems to end kinda abruptly, I expected to know more about the establishment of Lavinium
what's the more detailed(as mythical as the account may be) ancient source describing the period between Lavinium, Alba Longa and finally Rome? something written by Greek authors I'd imagine, Livy's account is rather short

>>22089930
Plutarch and Dionysius of Halicarnassus are probably good places to start

>>22089993
thx
the backlog keeps growing

What's a good edition of the Greek Anthology in print?
Also, I've only read Homer, Hesiod, Theognis, Theocritus, and some tragedies (if those count.) Where should I go next with Greek verse?

>>22086284
Si contra venti directionem urinas videbis aureum imbrem in corpore tuo cadere atque credo te istum placiturum esse, forsitan non.

I’m going to have quite some free time soon, and wish to learn Latin and Greek.
For those of you who have learned a classical languages to an intermediate degree or above, how important would you say actually reading interlinear texts is? With living languages, everyone says to “immerse yourself,” so will doing the same with dead ones give the same effect? It I read in Latin and Greek for hours a day, could that really be all it takes, after I understand the basic grammar?

>>22091968
definitely helpful even simply to make the process more bearable at times, to have a text readily available in the same book/pdf right next to the original makes it less tedious than jumping back and forth from a dictionary, even though sometimes the latter is still necessary to elucidate why the translator made such choice
that's true also for bilingual editions especially in the style of Loebs, imho even better since the translation/lexical definition isn't right next to the text but on another page, so you can if you want keep reading purely in the original without even mistakenly looking at the translation unless necessary

>>22091968
i've never read an interlinear text mainly because i haven't seen one for a text i'm interested in. i got myself to a pretty decent level with 6 months of heavy grammar study and after that i read the italian athenaze a couple of times. i'd recommend the same to anyone interested in learning a classical language.

What's the easiest way to type ancient Greek? the default polytonic greek keyboard is pretty unintuitive.

>>22092155
I've been interested in learning Latin any books you recommend to start? Also how difficult is it? I know it varies from person to person but this is something I've been intimidated in learning since the only language I know is English and have had a bad experience with French at school.

>>22093273
what do you mean unintuitive? so that we're on the same page; the polytonic Greek keyboard I use on Linux(debian) is switched on by a keycombo and for the most Latin letter correspond to their Greek counterparts with the obvious inevitable less intuitive ones e.g j = ξ, x = χ, c = ψ, v = ω, w = ς(only final ofc), u = θ, not sure there's a better layout

>>22093732
I mean typing accents / breathings, especially when multiple are involved.

>>22093742
yeah if it's like in my system I guess it's not the best but I got used to it eventually by using it to make my anki cards(it's through the two keys to the right of the 'L' key(not a US keyboard), no shift = accents, shift = breathes; circumflex through the letter right of 'P', shift and alt-gr give the dieresis sign and the long vowel mark respectively, etc...)
I think many on windows use graphical programs for it, not sure how good they are

>>22093742
Seems pretty easy to me. Press the key for breathing, then press the key for accent, then press the key for the letter.

In the last book of The Odyssey is there any indication within the actual language itself that it may not have been Homer or is the debate purely in terms of literary quality? (Sorry, can't read ancient greek so thought I'd ask clg).

>>22093923
The default windows keyboard doesn't work like that, it has dedicated keys for every combination of accents / breathings (eg '/' is a smooth breathing + an acute accent).
I guess I just have to memorize them. It's actually not that bad looking at it (the keys are identical for smooth and rough, but rough uses shift), but it would be easier to type like your description.

>>22093323
>any books you recommend to start?
This is a conversation had every thread. The only correct answer for a beginner is principally whichever grabs you, and after that as many as possible.

>Also how difficult is it?
It will require time and effort. That time and effort will reward you in an exactly linear fashion, provided knowing Latin is for you a reward.

>>22094031
>The default windows keyboard doesn't work like that

Finally, being a macfag pays off. I haven't used the Greek keyboard all that much yet, but the breathing and accent marks can be stacked, and I don't need any awkward cmd/alt/shift combinations. Feels nicer than trying to type Latin macrons.

I want to learn some Modern Barbarian Greek to improve speed and context for classical. Anyone done Paideia Institute's Modern Greek for Classicists? Anyone else delved into this/can offer some insight on how worthwhile it is?

>>22093976
I'm one of those who believe Homer (defining as a single unifying vision and voice of the epics) composed the iliad/odyssey. But book 24 of the odyssey is the only one I doubt. Yes, mostly because of the quality of the storytelling. Most of my professors felt the same. Take that for what you will.

>>22094239
I've been learning Modern Greek for a year. The first thing is to change your attitude about the language. It's not barbarian. The second thing is to use Assimil's greek book with audio, offered in French (Le grec sans peine), German (Griechisch ohne Mühe) or Italian (Il greco senza sforzo). Go through the book and congrats you've learned the fundamentals of MG. If you're a beta monolingual anglo who can't read one of the aforementioned languages, then idk, it'll be much harder for you.

>>22094279
Am a fluent French speaker; I just wonder if Paideia Institute/some other route to MG assuming an Attic background might not be more efficient than trusty old Assimil.

>>22094293
Being a French speaker, you everything going for you, Anon. I would just use Assimil, especially to just get an intuitive feel for the language and a correct pronunciation. And then you can use the Paideia institute book a reader to build up your Greek. Routledge has also published a good collection of modern Greek folk tales, which I have finished reading. Now I'm reading Le Petit Prince in MG

Do you guys ever use memory palaces to learn and memorize a new language?

the fact that verbs in oratio obliqua can't agree in number with their subject is clunky as fuck
I hope greek grammar makes more sense

>>22094860
I'm pretty sure greek has the same feature (iirc much less common than in latin though).

>>22094860
Greek has the same feature but uses participles much more in its place.
What's more is it's not clunky. English has the same feature. Get used to it.

>>22094661
I use memory palaces to memorize texts. Often that helps me to learn languages faster than I might otherwise. I have two cantos of Eugene Onegin memorized in Russian, all of Catullus memorized in Latin, and chunks of Homer memorized in Greek. I don't know how this would work outside of verse. I don't think I could do it.
For language itself, however, that's useless. Language is the one thing the human brain is perfectly molded it absorb. Language is infinite permutations of finite parts. With enough reasoned exposure you will absorb it all. Save the memory palaces for something harder.

>>22094661
I've never used the technique. Adding a whole host of new things to memorize on top of words doesn't feel helpful. Plain repetition works for me.

>>22089930
>just finished the Aeneid, bretty good, though the final seems to end kinda abruptly,
Vergil died, and his friends finished it for him instead of burning it like they were supposed to.

>>22093273
I use Greek Keys by SCS. I like it, and based on my very early and very limited experience with the Windows Polytonic Greek keyboard, I do prefer Greek Keys, but mind you, that was in my first week of Greek. The only reason why I started with Greek Keys is that my professor suggested it. Keyman might also be of interest to you.

>>22095429
Do you think that a palace structured like the language could help you learn it? I don’t mean simply remembering the conjugations et cetera, but imagine a palace outlined like a flowchart of the language’s grammar. You can go from, for example, the nominative verb room to the verb room, and if you grab a transitive verb, go to the accusative verb room afterwards. I’m somewhat interesting in the memory palace technique for it’s own worth, not exclusively because of learning languages.

Has any one tried mixing alphabets between languages? French with Hebrew letters, English with Arabic, AAVE with Ancient Greek would all be kino matches.

>>22095667
do you know any language with alphabet other than latin? In most cases it would be retarded. Hebrew abjad was used for writing different languages (including French) and it sucs, english with Arabic script would be even worse, as in Arabic you have only 3 short and 3 long vowels, and in English you have waaay more.

Can anyone recommend me some pre Caesar works? I'm planning on translation the Life of Charlemagne and I've got Cornelius Nepos coming soon. Anything that is harder than the Bible please.

>>22096002
I've only read some Plautus and love it. Though beware if you have only read prose initially you may struggle a bit, it's pre classical after all.

>>22095634
No. As I said, language is the one thing that the human brain can absorb with mere reasoned exposure. Find a favorite text to memorize if you want to use the technique for its own sake, and that won't be useless. One page of Catullus contains pretty much every common grammatical structure.

To those already advanced in Greek, how do you memorize/learn wich words have eta or epsilon in wich syllable? For some reason I can remember when it's omega or omicron but frequently mix up eta/epsilon.

>>22096383
I think he’s talking about easier to read than Caesar, not chronologically written before Caesar.

>>22096002
Eutropius, Phaedrus, Aulus Gellius, maybe some Sallust. All this being said, it should be noted that if you used a good primer it should have prepped you specifically to read Caesar with Caesarian idioms, vocabulary, and regular syntax all down by now. If you completed some other pedagogically experimental method or course, that's probably why you are getting blown the fuck out by Caesar on the very first page.

>>22097125
Master your phonetics. Memorize lots of poetry, and do so with accurate quantitative meter. Don't stop drilling until you can tap out the rhythm and flow naturally to the next word, or even guess it, through that rhythm. Most importantly, choose verse that you actually enjoy for this. It will make the exercise more bearable, and enhance what you already like along with the rest.

>>22097245
>Master your phonetics. Memorize lots of poetry, and do so with accurate quantitative meter

How?

>>22097267
Learn thoroughly the difference between a syllable and a mora. Know what syllable length is and how to identify it. I can explain this in a minute if you'd like.
Then do lots of ear training. Download Assimil's Le grec ancien sans peine and drill the recordings. Do not use other recordings unless you know for sure that they reproduce vowel length accurately. I think there was a site that had accurate readings of the Homeric epics over a metronome, but the voice they used was so annoying I forgot it. Maybe someone else in here knows.
This will be fairly easy for you if you have experience with Hungarian, Japanese, Arabic, or any modern language with a vowel length distinction, of which there are many (English not included, despite our inaccurate traditional grammarian terms.) It will be harder if not, and possibly very time consuming but still achievable if you are monolingual.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek_phonology

Go to the phonotactics section and master that concept. Be aware that long syllables should actually be pronounced long: that is, they should be held for about twice as long as short syllables. This is a distinct thing from stress, and both long and short syllables can be accented. This will feel unnatural at first if you only have experience with English, romance languages, or other languages without phonemic vowel length. Frequent reading and tapping out metered poetry should help.

>>22097285
>>22097315
The concept of long and short syllables is weird and confusing to me. I can't hear the difference.

>>22097365
So learn to hear the difference. I did and so can you.

https://hypotactic.com/my-reading-of-homer-work-in-progress/
Found the site. The reader's voice is very annoying and the reconstruction is not as accurate as in Assimil, but the length and even pitch accent are correct. Moreover, I don't see how Homer can be fully enjoyed without knowing the meter.

>>22097399
Thanks for the link. I'm a long way from enjoying Homer in any way, but having good recordings to learn from seems really really important.

I have the opportunity to study classic philology at one of the best universities in my country, should I take this opportunity if I want to learn greek and latin?
If any of you anons could have the kindness to share your experience of studying classical languages in an academic setting, I would be very grateful.

>>22097799
Which country? It will make a difference.
All the classics majors I knew as an undergraduate here in the US are now doing well, save for one who had a medical crisis. All were upper middle class at minimum. None are now working in academia. Take that as you will.

>>22097877
>Which country?
I prefer not to say but it is in Europe, if that matters.

>>22097983
That matters. Absolutely don't waste the chance then. Unless you are in some absolute shithole your university probably had superior standards for undergrads to even (or especially) the top institutions in my country, where only postgrad work really matters here now. I say this with full mournful patriotism, and out of extensive experience on both sides of the Atlantic.

>>22098005
> your university probably had superior standards for undergrads to even (or especially) the top institutions in my country
>only postgrad work really matters here now
What do you mean by this?

>>22098058
Pardon the messiness of that post; I was in a hurry.
I could discuss top schools dropping language requirements, posts being given to barely-fresh undergrads, academic standards in free-fall due to the need to catch up the barely literate products of our horrid (and utterly unstandardized—yep!) education system. However, I prefer to let the worst of our ills speak for itself. Read and weep.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/02/magazine/classics-greece-rome-whiteness.html

I want to start learning Ancient Greek.

Is the English Athenaze good enough? I've been told that the Italian version is much better, sadly I don't know any Italian.

>>22098169
You don't need Italian for Italian Athenaze.

>>22097799
If you don't know Latin or Greek why are you so interested in classic philology?
If the material appeals to you then go for it but bear in mind that philology is not a fair-weather subject

>>22098169
pick a textbook and read it

I’m trying to understand the roots of the word
>expectation
and how it shapes its meaning. Does
>ex-
mean “out”, “up”, or “away” here? Are we meant to understand the word metaphorically as
>seeing away (into the future) from here (the vantage point of the present)
What are some other ways of looking at expectation?

>>22098988
ex refers to a condition that specifically was in the past - spectation refering to something perceived visually - ex - spectation, the condition of having foreseen something in the past that has still not occured (the non-fulfillment of this expectation resulting in disappointment).

>>22098773
>If you don't know Latin or Greek why are you so interested in classic philology?
I have been studying philology for some time and I already have an interest in classics.
I was planning to study Latin and Greek once I was done with my current work and this opportunity came up.

Salvete! I just uploaded jewnieri's course on libgen for the premium enjoyment of you faggots. Don't thank me.
http://libgen.is/book/index.php?md5=4D9EC19E6A7DE83E44D4DCFD2C11664B

>>22099004
That makes a lot of sense. Thank you!

>https://historyofenglishpodcast.com
wish this guy would put half the effort into latin/french pronunciation he affords his autistic chaucer readings. everywhere he go, he must anglo-saxonize

>>22099557
Seems you have your answer then
If you haven't read them yet I recommend Leonard Palmer's books The Latin Language and The Greek Language. Excellent primers for classical philology.

Long shot but does anyone know where to get the answer key for Greek to GCSE 1 and 2? I only found some for chapter 1 and 2 of book 1 and now I'm basically correcting myself on grammar and cases that I don't trust myself to do properly

>>22100182
>GCSE 1 and 2?
kek are you 16?

>>22100187
>are you 16
I wish lel. It's just what I started with and I have no interest in buying any other textbooks or writing notes from a screen etc, also it's fucking easy and makes me feel cool.

>>22054957
this cuck is seething at his French bvlls. The French are direct descendants of the Trojans #truth

Latin translation of Plato, anyone? I'm finding nothing on libgen.

>>22100755
Ficino. Can probably find pdfs on archive.org or hathitrust or google books

>>22100755
Archive org

>>22100755
What works in particular? Cicero wrote a Latin translation of the Timaeus which is on Perseus: https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3atext%3a2008.01.0676

>>22100755
this publisher has Greek-Latin bilingual editions
https://openlibrary.org/publishers/A.F._Didot

>>22100877
A digitised (so you can copy and paste and search text eg an epub file that you can read in ebook apps) Latin translation of the complete works of Plato, with Stephanus pagination, would be ideal.

I finished my Latin course and I'm just starting to read literature, does anyone have advice for the best path to learn Greek and Sanskrit next? I want to learn all three but idk how much time to spend on each and to what level I should read before moving on.

Sometimes I feel as though LLPSI is lazily made. Chapter 25 introduces gerunds, but the grammar section is the shortest in the entire book and doesn't even cover them.

>>22101324
>should
Will your school give you any further requirements? Then reach those.
Does your religion or religious conscience impose on you any special requirements? Then fulfill those.
Otherwise, no ancient Greek will ever ask you for directions. You're learning for fun. Study as much as sits well with you.

>>22101324
best path is always whatever keeps you engaged, but the method at the end of the day should be the same, absorb grammar + grind through increasingly hard texts, including easy readers for starting

>>22102472
Good luck convincing those people that this is an issue. People don't even care to argue about this anymore. All you can do is let the fool persist in his folly and become wise, thats how I snapped out of it. It's a reader, not a textbook. If you try to use it for anything else you'll learn the hard way and eventually grow the fuck up.

I just want affordable decent quality print editions of Greek... Surely there are some Greek publishers that do this? Closest things I've found are the French university press editions but those have godawful bindings like all those bouquins; they always feel like they're going to fall apart in my hands. I just want my complete Plato for cozy travel without breaking the bank.

>>22103778
Oxford Classical Texts
for portable paperbacks Reclam

Has anyone made a latin language understanding test yet? Similiar to the kinds of things you see for English, Japanese, etc where it tests how fluent you are.

>>22103822
OCTs are expensive. There isn't some company in Modern Greece that does this?

any tips for memorizing Latin's noun/adjective declensions?

>>22104383
Read more.

>>22104383
Encounter them in reading.

>>22104157
I don’t think any of those exist, anon. There’s no institution of reference to make it, like the British Council (IELTS), TestDaF-Institut or Instituto Cervantes (DELE) for example. The Pontifical Academy for Latin is seriously missing on that opportunity.

>>22104383
Drills

>>22104383
The nouns and the verb forms take a while but you get a feel for them eventually.

It's all the qui words I'm struggling with
quisquam quidquid quidem quisnam, they all look the same to me

>>22104403
>>22104421
>>22104451
>>22104454
thanks
The normal verb conjugation was easy for me because it's really similar to Spanish. These Summer courses are rough, the college is trying to squeeze four months into four weeks.
>eventually

>>22104383
Grind ad nuseam and then some more

>cum clauses

>>22102472
>>22103707
LLPSI is meant for pupils, so yeah, if you try to use it without a textbook or a grammar on the side, you're bound to fail like the Dowling/Ranieri cultists who give up after Tempestas.

Montaigne learnt Latin by attending a school whose rules forbade the use of other languages; that's the natural method. LLPSI's direct method pales in comparison, so just get Wheelock too.

Where can I buy a greek Bible (ideally OT and NT) for relatively cheap. I'm an autist and need physical copies. In Bongland

>>22104237
buy used
Reclam are cheap

>>22104574
A while ago, I made a little javascript quiz app so I could drill declensions and conjugations. I always wanted to expand it to more general problems, but never really got around to it.

Now that I'm starting Greek, I plan to make a similar quiz app.

Are there any Latin texts by or about Nazis?

why do I enjoy learning adverbs so much fratrēs? I spent 30 minutes today reading a Latin dictionary copying down adverbs

>>22106220
University dissertations were often still in Latin, Nietzsche's and Marx's were. You could look up those and see what you find.

>>22106672
Because they don't decline. One look at the dictionary and you know the word wherever it occurs in a sentence.
Be careful, this might be a gateway drug to Chinese.

>>22105285
>LLPSI's direct method pales in comparison, so just get Wheelock too.
>it's not the best, so you should use an objectively bad method

>>22103707
>>22105285
>>22107239
Can't you post about anything, ANYTHING, that's not Latin textbooks?

>>22107178
>Be careful, this might be a gateway drug to Chinese.
could you explain further?

laughing in Latin feels different to laughing in English
strange

>>22107514
Nothing in Chinese gets declined or conjugated, as far as I know.

>>22107542
how do you laugh in latin?

>>22107239
Name an original Latin work that you read in the original in it's entirety without a translation on the facing page.

>>22107648
English: hahaha
Latin: hahahae
French: honhonhon
Brazilian Portuguese: huehuehue
Korean: zerg rush kekeke
German:

I'm not sure who Amaryllis and Galatea are in the first Bucolic. Nymphs? Of two different places?

I love the jussive
It's beautiful how a two word sentence like "civitas pugnetur" can mean so much

Should I spend my summer learning Greek or Latin?

>>22108460
yes

>>22108568
I meant to ask as in which one should I study. I like learning about Rome but I also love Hellas

>>22108574
those are long time efforts, you should do what you like most
everything else equal though knowing 0 of both by the end of summer you'll probably make more progress with Latin

>>22108574
It's just my opinion so take it with a grain of salt, but Latin has more accessible material for beginners. The important part when learning a language is to keep at it daily, so I think you're less likely to give up if you pick Latin.

>>22108694
>>22108712
Thanks

>>22106220
not Nazis, but there's a project collecting and editing Latin texts written in fascist Italy: https://flt.hf.uio.no/

bamp

>>22107645
Pronouns and question words do in very ancient Chinese. The later you go, the less of this there is. There's also evidence of unwritten declensions. Don't ask me where though.
Absolutely take any gateway drug to Chinese you can unless you are only interested In the West. Chu Ci alone is worth it. Cai Zong-Qi's textbooks on poetry are classics too.

Best books/guides to learning Old English?

Thoughts on Pharr's Homeric Greek?

>>22110669
"Pharrt" was my initial thought.

>>22110669
You could do worse. It's in the Mega, check it out.
Very antiquated style of writing and teaching. Lots of 'read these grammatical explanations, now translate". Overall not the worst book out there and better than average for tackling Homer right off the bat.
On a side note Pharr's Aeneid 1-6 is fantastic, one of the best books for those out of the elementary Latin stage and seeking to read Virgil.

>>22109784
The only thing preventing me from learning Classical Chinese is the fact that I have zero interest in Mandarin, yet I would feel like a jackass attempting CC without it. I know the textbooks, courses, annotated aditions, readers, and commentaries are far more numerous in quantity and superior in quality.

It'd be like trying to learn Latin as a mongolian but refusing to learn English prior. Am I just being stubborn or should I skip Mandarin?

>>22107661
German: hoehoehoehoehoehoe

>>22111175
desu the only thing they share are script and some basic vocab and sentence structures. English and French share a script and a lot of vocab but they are completely different languages also. There are texts that start from very simple through to unabridged texts with no Mandarin.

>>22111415
>There are texts that start from very simple through to unabridged texts with no Mandarin.
Not him, but care to recommend some?

>>22110558
Complete Old English is a great textbook for in-depth and Old English Online is a great introduction to start off in my experience

>Wheelock's Latin chapter 30
>Indirect questions
That's it... It's over. Go on without me bros.

>>22110669
Read the foreword. If it convinces you that learning homeric before attic is a good idea you should definitely try it out.

when did you start dreaming in latin?

>>22111175
You can try. You'll end up learning Mandarin when you start asking questions whose answers require you to learn Mandarin, however.

>>22107081
I am neither that dark brown nor blonde nor have purple hair, where do I fit in?

>>22111175
There is absolutely no need to learn Mandarin in order to read Zhuangzi, Qu Yuan, and Han Fei in the original. Hundreds of millions of Japanese, Koreans, and pre-romanization Vietnamese attest to this. Hundreds of millions of non-Mandarin Chinese pre-PRC do too.
You should choose one modern Asian language for pronunciation; further studies in that language are however entirely optional. I happen to be a fluent Mando speaker as well as a Japanese-American with heritage proficiency in that language, and yet I think Cantonese reading suits this purpose best, with Korean not far behind if you really do not care at all for China. This is just because of quantity of rhymes preserved; Japanese is the worst in this regard because kanji are not even monosyllabic, but every Japanese schoolchild still learns Sunzi and Confucius in the original and few are bothered by this.
Rouser's textbook was by far the best when I was learning. I haven't read Classical Chinese for Everyone because it came out long long after it could do anything for me, but it's endorsed by Victor Mair, whom I regard with great esteem, so definitely check those out too if this is a genuine interest. Note that LibGen pirated PDF editions of Rouser are actually better than the legit hard copy, because some Hong Kong nationalists or something added Cantonese pronunciations alongside the Mando ones. Cai Zong-Qi's poetry textbooks are the greatest classical poetry readers I have ever had the pleasure of owning, but unfortunately use only Mando pronunciation. This shouldn't be a real problem if you learn your characters well: pinyin is unreadable trash anyway.
And remember to copy every single new character you learn 50 times over. I did it, and probably near two billion now alive have done it as well. No excuses for laziness.

>>22112227
You are either Chinese, being intentionally misleading, or have just an accidentally PRC-centric worldview. Nobody would say the same thing about Greek.

>>22097285
Any opinions on Assimil for (ancient) Greek and Latin? How do the German and the French recordings compare? For Greek, there's only the French one so there's that but for Latin there's two and they do have different recordings by different people (one can download samples from the official website) even though, I assume, the texts are identical.
The German version seems to have Italians who pronounce every single "est" as "este" and also "magna" as "magna" instead of "mangna" as it explicitly says in the book. But the French for both Greek and Latin has (among others) one extremely German-sounding person (vowel qualities and the r).
So, are they worth it? And for Latin, which one is better?
(Yes, yes, another textbook question)

How does the The Beginner's Latin Book by Collar & Daniell compare to Wheelock?

>>22112573
All that matters is that you use the version by Desessard (sixties-2007, then 2015-present day.) The Ducos-Filippi edition (2007-2015) was discontinued for good reason. I don't speak German so I can't tell you which version they used for that.
As long as you are already aware that no single textbook is ever sufficient unto itself, Assimil textbooks will do more for you than almost any others. They should always be supplemented with decent formal grammars and plenty of self-directed reading.

>>22112451
The Chinese have been studying Classical Chinese for over 3,000 years (I don't give a shit about precisely when the Meme dynasty starts). There are entire books written on the meanings and interpretations of single characters. There are millions of academics churning out material on this stuff, in Mandarin, and there have been for the aforementioned 3,000 years. Westerners have been studying this stuff for about 100 years. So, yes, he will eventually run into problems that he can't solve with just English and Classical Chinese. This is the classic problem of autodidacticism.

More importantly, why not learn Mandarin? You're going to be spending hours making a dictionary of obscure Chink glyphs and burying your nose in Wang Dingdong's "The Pingpong" anyways, so you clearly are a sinophile. Nobody on here is going to do the "taiwan is the real china because they have LGBTbbq and niggers" bit anyways, so why get butthurt? If Japanese schoolchildren are learning Classical Chinese to read the Analects (lmfao), anon can watch movies in chink.

>>22112599
Twice as many chapters with less content per ch. More archaic English in explanations. Cheaper paperbacks on Amazon. Free pdfs.

>Ego, amīcus tuus, quī tē amō, tēcum sum
why amo and not amat?

Hektorsisters....I think Achilles' new drip is no match for ours....

>>22112697
You're assuming he wants to do serious scholastic work rather than (even very deep) reading for enjoyment. Even then, one of the best libraries of Tang texts is in Kyoto, and much of the best sinological research has always been written in Japanese or Korean.

just finish Chapter 34 of LLPSI, I heard it was the hardest one in the book, but the only significant hurdle was dealing with the incredibly faggy and melodramatic world of love poetry and satirical epigraphs

How different is rennaissance italian from modern italian? I've been thinking of leafing through what Da Vinci wrote because his alleged habits intrigue me.

pello nocti huic

>>22113561
very nice anon. you're all grown up and ready to leave the shire. what's your sense of progress looking back on previous chapters like 16?

>>22113561
That's a good feeling.

I recently picked up Roma Aeterna after a long hiatus and decided I should start from the beginning again, remembering how hard it seemed when I started it. To my shock, the first few chapters have been a breeze.

Amazing how much you learn without even noticing.

>>22104157
Yes, they are called comps, comprehensive exams. Graduate students take multiple to test their intellectual abilities. They are very hard and take hours. Classics PhD students must take comps in Latin and Greek.

I can now read Anabasis with relative ease at maybe a quarter of the speed with which I read in my native language. I can understand Solon and Theognis and read them out in correct meter, but have serious trouble with Homer and Archilochus. Where do I go from here? What authors are natural progressions?

>>22114429
I didn’t read any of the chapters more than once, but just by going back to them when I need to search up a word (through going to the index to see where it was introduced by the nature method), I also didn’t do Pensa C except for the first few, I started with the book on Jan. 14, and finished chapter 34 on Jun. 4 (yesterday)

>>22114950
I know plenty of people who passed their comps/orals and know fuckall Latin/Greek within a short time. Also people who were never very good at either, so they probably crammed like crazy to pass by a hair and then re-forgot everything.

Don't even get me started on other language exams. When I took them, it was open book, any dictionary you want. I heard recently that they let people use laptops in them now in some places. Most people passing the ones I took didn't actually know the languages they were testing on.

>>22115545
How's Thucycides?

>>22115590
>How's Thucycides?
what do you think if he struggles with homer?

>>22115640
different kind of difficulties though, Homer filters you by lexicon, Thucydides by grammar/syntax

>>22115671
the whole hapax legomena thing is a meme. you'll need a dictionary just as much with thucydides

>>22115774
that wasn't my experience, I didn't need to check the dictionary that often with Thucydides for completely new words, he doesn't really use complicated or unusual Attic words, nevertheless you may be completely stuck figuring out what he is trying to say despite having a general idea what each word means, because of how he puts them together
whereas starting with Homer purely with an Attic background, you are going to meet many new or rarer words, but once you read their meaning, the sentences usually aren't that complex to figure out

>>22115590
I just got my BA in Classics, and it was 50/50 on whether or not they'd be open book. In my Homer class last year, we could use a paper dictionary for a test on a passage we had never seen. In other classes, there were no books or notes allowed. I had one instructor, very nice guy I learned a lot from, who allowed take home, cheat all you want tests. His teaching methods didn't fail me because when I skipped a level and took a course with a strict yet stupid professor, I did slightly better (I got 99's in both classes).
Obviously, I haven't done comps yet, but my friends and profs all tell me that they are super hard.

>>22085056
French Assimil seems by far the best, even includes audio files

>>22116041
Oh yeah in Classics I think there is still SOME rigor, don't get me wrong. And open book is totally justified if it's a passage translation, since it's no different from how you'd be translating that passage on your own in the wild. I am only saying that even this is no absolute guarantee of rigor these days, I've seen some real disheartening shit within Classics education. Usually it's people like you who actually care and take it seriously who know their stuff. I just think people like you should not necessarily respect or assume the best of graduate students or even professors, so I always rush to tell anyone I possibly can just how shitty grads/profs can be at Greek and Latin, despite having all the credentials.

Comps are still hard but like I have seen some real fucking morons pass them and forget all their Greek within 6 months, never use it again, etc. In ways that make me suspect they never knew it all that well to begin with. I have some real horror stories.

NEW
>>22116267
>>22116267
>>22116267

>>22116111
>I have some real horror stories.

Story time please? Late-life autodidact here in Latin (beginner), with vague notions attending some sort of program at some some point.