/lit/ - Literature

>>22049911
That's a cool picture. But this isn't tumblr

>somali pirates killed my family
>but dude, look at this tree

Ugly nature? Dafuq is this image trying to convey?

>>22049911
But I‘m not looking at an array of beautiful landscapes; I‘m shitposting in your gay thread at work because this is the least objectionable way I‘ve found for tending to my damnable need to eat.

>>22050320
Probably not anything specific. Just the juxtapose of Shinji's face to the pretty floral and landscape imagery. Could be open to interpretation.

>>22050339
Too juxtaposed it's cringe.

>>22050403
I like it.

*notices the road noise in the distance*

>>22050414
Grow up

>>22050320
The irony of existential angst within the beauty of nature.

It's a dishonest meme, of course, cherry picking the beautiful parts of life and ignoring the ugliness. One could just as easily poach images from bestgore.com and slap a bloomer meme over it to achieve the opposite effect.

>>22050439
is showing a natural landscape really cherry picking? I would say bestgore videos is cherry picking but you do you

>>22050427
Fuck off dickmuncher

>>22049911
>life is... le bad!

>>22051286
>life is... le good
>this nature calendar said so
worldlings say the darndest things

>>22051301
>>this nature calendar said so
it's even better in reality
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osBqbl7gSwU

>>22051322
nigga's theodicy is grass and trees lmfao. worldlings are slaves to appearance

>>22049911
NGE sucks

>>22051333
>wahhh why does god let bad things happen, don't have kids

>>22050439
The good parts are overwhelmingly more representative of the world than the bad parts. Literally everyone here has all their basic needs perfectly met so they have to bring up muh abused african children that they have 0 relation to

>>22051353
>Literally everyone here has all their basic needs perfectly met so they have to bring up muh abused african children that they have 0 relation to
What kind of logic is this?
>everyone with frequent access to the internet has frequent access to the internet
wow, it's fucking nothing

>>22051355
Shut the fuck up fag no one cares about your muh no gf perma whining

>>22051359
I accept your concession.

>>22051366
No surprise the antinatalist autist is also a fedora tipper

>>22051353
This board is filled with sub-25 absolute children lmfao.

>>22051368
I am a fedora tipper, but i'm not the guy that spams the Benatar book.
However, the whole
>look at this sunny forest wow life is more good than bad
argument is just so stupid it hurts.

>>22051373
>he's over 25 and still an antinatalist
It's over for you

>>22051377
You're so stupid it hurts. It's not even an argument, it's a simple observation. Your mind is simply broken so you imagine pain and live in suffering because you're broken. This has nothing to do with the world only with your mental issues. This is the truth and you know it too deep down.

>>22051380
I'm not an antinatalist. I just don't think the American middle class lifestyle is an appropriate theodicy.

>>22051377
Basically this.

>>22050300
Cope, OP's pic has a firm basis in reality.
>they go for a walk in the park
>interviewer forwards the idea that life can be improved
>Benatar raises his voice and starts sperging that life never improves (objectively false by the way)
>Benatar starts crying and basically says "life is unacceptable"
>interviewer is taken aback by his outburst and at a loss for words (Benatar is inconsolable)
Benatar is pretty unstable. On top of that he admits that his ideas are damaging while using the excuse that his work is academic and only meant for those that seek it out (note that these people are likely to have personality disorders and mental illness). Benatar objectively creates suffering and given that he's under the delusion that his work is toward the opposite: he's delusional and irrational.

>>22051385
Why doesn't the same apply to you? You're fed, comfortable, warm, why aren't you projecting your own comfort and satisfaction onto the rest of us?

>>22051355
>>22051387
See >>22051389. It literally happened, kek.

>>22051387
You shouldn't even know what theodicy means since you're too inept to live life in the most basic sense let alone afford cognitive luxuries such as engaging with intellectual topics. Your opinion is worth less than nothing no matter how many words you learn.

>>22051398
Words words words. I don't get my ontology from GrubHub, bro.

>>22051385
Again, i'm not even saying the world is bad that we should just end the human race or whatever the book says, but AGAIN
>wow a lakeside cabin guess god is great
just doesn't pass muster as anything other than... stupidity.

>>22051392
Are you not fed and warm?

>>22051402
You haven't said a single thing of value, based on everything you said you're a mental midget who wouldn't be able to string a coherent argument to save your life. Why do you think your opinion is compelling to anyone?

>>22051407
Yeah, but I'm not so blinkered to ontologize my own comfort. living things die every day to sustain my comfort and warmth. What a myope

>>22051408
He's shitting all over you clowns, give it a rest. I bet you post in the nu atheism threads like it's still 2007

>>22051408
I accept your concession.

>>22051413
>blinkered
>ontologize
>myope
>still says nothing
Amazing what pseuds can trick their minds into doing

>>22051424
>dude... here's a list of the words you used
Kek, I, too, accept your concession.

>>22051402
The point is Benatar is mentally unstable and "quality of life" is at the center of what he promotes (he tries to deflect and say it's a corollary but there's a fair argument that it's intrinsic to his whole thesis). His ideas attract those whom you wouldn't want as arbiters to just such things, I can post a replicated study that affirms they're generally mentally ill and have personality disorders.

So no, the argument isn't "NICE TREES THO" it's about how aspects of his argument, which hinge on subjective experience, are framed for consideration. Aside, most antinatalists have no response other than to falsely claim it's an adhom.

>>22049911
The fact that this dude hasn't killed himself really takes the bite out of the point. At least Mark Fisher followed through.

>>22051437
Well i'm not even an antinatalist, I just think the image of a wojak crying in front of a pretty forest as an actual argument is an insultingly bad one. Like, on the level of "God exists because I cried when I saw the grand canyon" bad.

>>22051459
This person is 115 IQ at most.

>>22051466
>ad hom
I win.

>>22051459
>just think the image of a wojak crying in front of a pretty forest as an actual argument is an insultingly bad one
Are you new? It's a joke that contains a nod to a larger argument which was just explained to you. Learn to meme.

>>22051459
the image of a wojak isn't really an argument, you know...

>>22051466
Checked. This guy is retarded and summer is upon us.

>>22051477
>It's a joke
No, i've seen people defend the image as the argument on this board. Or at least, proceed to defend the image as if it was all that was needed to make their point.

>>22051478
Agreed.

>>22051485
>>22051468

>>22051488
I just explained the argument to which it's alluding, retard. It's a joke that satirizes the fact antinatalism relies on subjective experience and on top of that you have the documented time Benatar had a breakdown in a park full of picnicking families enjoying the nice sunny weather (>>22051389). Are you being retarded on purpose?

>>22051488
people being content with just existence as it is forms a strong view against antinatalism. the image is just an expression of that

>>22051502
>>22051437
>Aside, most antinatalists have no response other than to falsely claim it's an adhom
You argue like a retarded antinatalist so you're well on your way to being one.

>>22051488
>>22051511
>>22051459
Stop posting brainlet

>>22051492
>>22051511
Whoops.

Am I just desensitized to nature? The wilderness is just sort of there to me. Why not post works of art and industry?

>>22051340
Most important post ITT

>>22051506
>Garfield is a strong answer to the problem of evil
>mindless non-neurotic consumption... le good!?!!
Lmfao

>>22051516
Middle one is me. I accidentally clicked my post instead of that of the retarded anon crying that you made fun of him.

>>22051518
>falsely
you literally called me stupid

>>22051516
not an argument

>>22051502
Don't care, don't follow the schizo lore of these threads. Just calling a spade (OP's image and variants) a spade.

>>22051519
I like looking at wilderness pictures sometimes, but it's much better in person. I've lived in major cities but now I live in a rural area and I love being able to go outside and see the river, be surrounded by forest, and watch birds or whatever. Very peaceful.
Part of it probably depends on how you grew up, if you were raised in the city then that might be more comforting to you and the wilderness might be just some place with lots of trees and bugs and stuff.

>>22051542
You're not responding to the fact the meme satirizes how subjective experience relates to the "quality of life" aspect of Benatar's argument alongside the fact he had a nervous breakdown in a park full of happy picnicking families enjoying a bright sunny day.

You're retarded.

>>22051519
Bugman the post

>>22051582
>You're retarded.
Is this what you call NOT ad hom?

Just because Benatar is a apparently a retard doesn't make the image any better when until this thread i've never seen it used in that context. I've only ever seen it used in a more general "How can you want to kill yourself when nature is so pretty" context- and defended on that basis, no mention of Benatars little panic attack when the image is attacked by people.

THAT BEING SAID, I didn't know that Benatar story, so the origin of the image is indeed less stupid than I thought, however its usage since then has been nothing other than stupidity from what I have seen (I rarely go into Benatar threads, so my encounters with it have been in other threads here and there).

>>22050948
>I would say bestgore videos is cherry picking but you do you
Obviously, you retarded onions zoomer gay bitch. That's why I used it as an example. It would be cherry picking in the opposite direction. Since you clearly have no ability to comprehend basic concepts, I hope you at least have the self-awareness not to consider your flaccid and putrid little mind worth sharing the contents of, but I have a feeling that's expecting too much. Fucking idiot.

>>22051542
>Don't care, don't follow the schizo lore
Kek, you cared enough to offer a retarded opinion on the meme and now you're demonstrating your stupid enough to think "I don't know about all that!" is a retort when your opinion has been shown to be wrong.

My guess is you're actually an antinatalist retard triggered by the meme. Can't be 100% sure of course but that theory could explain why your flitting from "IT'S NOT AN ARGUMENT" to "I DONT CARE" with 0 selfawareness.

>>22051620
natural things that can be found anywhere are cherry picking for you? the same as a weirdo torturing a guy with a chainsaw? what logic is that anon?

>>22051613
>I WAS WRONG BUT I'M STILL RIGHT
You really need to fuck off, retard. You add nothing to this thread save for the fact we can all laugh at how dumb you are.

>>22051620
based

My friend, this
>>22051286
is the image I see the most, and is profoundly retarded when taken as is. And given that its a twitter screencap #epic0wn type image, why would I assume I am missing a bunch of context?

>>22051631
see
the second reply here
>>22051635

>>22051629
>Scenes like the ones in OP's image can be found anywhere
It is written, throw not your pearls before swine, so this is my last response to you, you worthless insect. Learn how to rub your brain cells together before you hit post. What a worthless and moronic argument we're circling around.

>>22049911
Where most people actually live:

>>22051635
meant for
>>22051627

>>22051639
>still crying about MUH AD HOM
You don't even know what an ad hom actually is. The argument isn't "you're demonstrably retarded therefore your perception isn't worth directly addressing" (i.e. an actual informal fallacy). The argument is "this is what the meme represents AND you're obviously retarded as per textual evidence available ITT (e.g. not knowing what constitutes an ad hom)."

You really are stupid.

>>22051649

>>22051649
No they don't

>>22051657

>>22051655
>not knowing what constitutes an ad hom
I do, you don't.
Also, as evidence of my main point that you ignored, look at this comment chain
>>22051286
>>22051301
>>22051322
>>22051333
>>22051348
The guy literally links to a video of pretty scenery as his argument. This is quite literally what I was describing.

>>22051652
See >>22051655. The meme has been explained and you admitted your ignorance already. Do you seriously want to get into the proof you're a retard?

>>22051649
>where most people actually live... since 1800s...
>>22051647
look at your post, and tell me you don't have some problems with your head... you look like the voice of reason

>>22051664

>>22051657
Where is this? Pretty aesthetic shithole.

>>22051668
see
>>22051665

>>22051670

>>22051672
Hong Kong

>>22051665
I explained the meme to you. You're making a strawman out of the argument and already admitted you were ignorant as to the subjective "quality of life" argument, the fact Benatar is mentally unstable, and the fact antinatalism attracts those with mental illnesses (depression) and personality disorders.

You're an idiot.

>>22051690
>I explained the meme to you.
Yeah and I explained how in practice from what i've seen, your context is irrelevant, complete with a relelvant example of what I am talking about IN THIS VERY THREAD.
>You're making a strawman out of the argument
see above

>>22051678

>>22051700

>>22051700
I assume this this England right? There's a shot like this in the first Harry Potter movie, and it blew my mind, I don't think we really pack em in that tight in the US.

>>22051676
You don't have a point retard. See >>22051690. Also, no. You don't know what an ad hom is. I'll explain it again:

You're obviously quite stupid to the point you're unaware when you're disingenuous. This is a valid reason to simply call you a retard and not address your points. However, this would be an informal fallacy (though arguably justified) and considering the fact you don't understand the "informal" part of such you're demonstrably an idiot.

However, your points have been addressed directly. You have been called stupid and retarded based on your behavior and your poor style of argumentation. You have no self awareness thereby you're a target for ridicule.

>>22051713
see
>>22051697

>>22051697
You admitted you were wrong and uneducated in regard to the meme, idiot. How other people argue isn't my responsibility. Simple as. You're an idiot.

>>22051708

>>22051700
It's not aesthetically pleasing, but the houses are far enough apart at least for comfort. The streets are clean, like the interiors of each house undoubtedly are. I've never understood the hatred for suburbs that some people seem to have. It's as close to heaven on earth as anything in the world. The only legitimate complaint is that the houses are too uniform.

>>22051720
No. If you want to explain why I'm wrong go ahead. The fact you're an idiot has already been prove. Cope, faggot.

>>22051722
>How other people argue isn't my responsibility.
For the 20th time, while your context makes the creation of the meme more understandable, I've only ever seen it used in the way that it was used *in this very thread*- and that usage it maddingly, mind bogglingly stupid.

>>22051709
Dallas-Fort Worth

>>22051735
>not reading my posts where I advance the conversation beyond your most recent retort
I accept your concession.

>>22051740
*is

>>22051743
sheeeit

>>22051740
>YOURE REASPONSIBLE FOR OTHER PEOPLES ARGUMENTS!
Holy shit you're stupid. I'm almost 100% certain you're an antinatalist triggered by the meme now, kek. Btw, that means it's serving its purpose you absolute retard.

>>22051727

>>22051750
Friend, it is simple. The meme is, from what I have seen on /lit/ at large, primarily used in a reductive and stupid manner unchained to the original, less stupid origin, which is what I am critiquing.

>>22051649
>>22051657
>>22051664
>>22051670
>>22051678
>>22051700
>>22051708
>>22051727
compared to natural landscapes, these are structures built one minute ago in the scare of the history of humanity, a weird anomaly humans were forced into. does it follow that no being at all should ever have been born in this world?

>>22051763
>does it follow that no being at all should ever have been born in this world?
It follows that I'm not trapping any of my spawn in here.

>>22051762
You admitted you didn't understand the meme and were therefore in no position to critique it you absolute retard. Also, using satire to piss off the other side of an argument is literally what memes are made for--are you new or just a complete and total idiot? Seriously, you're one of the dumbest people I've ever seen on this board.

>>22051763
The reaction OP's meme has gotten is absolutely epic. Antinatalists are absolutely seething. Fucking kek.

>>22051781
>You admitted you didn't understand the meme
I've been explaining to you why this isn't relevant to the meat of my criticism.
>it's le satire even though I get in arguments to bump limit about it
hm

>>22051792
>my criticism
You admitted you didn't even know what the meme was referencing you complete and total idiot! Holy shit, you're honestly the most autistic retard I've ever come across on 4chan. You have no selfawareness at all.

And yes, memes are made to satirize a given side of a debate and illicit a response. Look how angry antinatalists ITT are by how much of a (completely failed) effort they've put in to deligitimize it. You yourself admitted ignorance and yet you grasp at the idea someone dumber than you (not possible by the way) may have a shallow perspective on it. That doesn't give you the right to ignore the deeper argument you complete and total fool.

Seriously, I'm honestly amazed by your stupidity. It's hilarious and shocking at the same time.

>>22049911
>Better Never to Have Been a South African

>>22051665
Not all the same person, >>22051348 was my only post to you and I was just making fun of you for being retarded. What other people ITT have said to you has no bearing on the validity of that fact.

Why is it always jews with this mentally weak loser mentality of anti-natalism

>>22051802
Eh, we both know that the stunted for 8f the argument that I've shown as deployed in this thread is an argument that satisfies you intellectually, so you're the real idiot. Frfr.

>>22051807
I'm pretty sure he's a mentally unstable antinatalist severely triggered by OP's meme. It might be a good idea to back off and just ignore--the behavior pattern suggests he's legitimately mentally ill and could actually become an hero over the fact he's been severely BTFO by multiple anon's ITT.

>>22051802
Eh, we both know that the stunted form the argument that I've shown as deployed in this thread is an argument that satisfies you intellectually, so you're the real idiot. Frfr.

>>22051813
See >>22051816. Seek professional help, retard. Frfr.

>>22051817
Eh, we both know that the stunted form of the argument that I've shown as deployed in this thread is an argument that satisfies you intellectually, so you're the real idiot. Frfr.

>>22051816
>It might be a good idea to back off and just ignore
I'd accept your concession in that case.

>>22051817
>repost (kek)
>>22051819. Meds.

what is happening right now

>>22051827
"Totally not an antinatalist" anon is having a breakdown and deleting his posts.

>>22051830
kek

>>22051822
>deleted his post
Concession status: accepted.

>>22051834
I actually feel bad for the guy now. This could be a learning experience where he learns to accept being wrong but given the fact it's likely he's an antinatalist triggered by the meme it's more likely he's just ruminating in his own misery and embarrassment.

>>22051843
>where he learns to accept being wrong
That guy here, why would this happen when you have said that I am retarded and suicidal etc. In your experience, does that kind of thing usually lead to positive change?

>>22051802
see
>>22051822

>>22051851
I said you are retarded (based on the fact your arguments were in fact retarded) and it dawned on me you may be mentally unwell so I should lay off. It's easy to forget we're talking to real people on here sometimes because everyone is faceless.

You were wrong ITT and yes--admitting that to yourself is a positive and healthy thing to do. This conversation doesn't actually matter for anything and it's only the weight that you yourself put into it that makes it real. Antinatalism is an unhealthy belief system and detaching yourself from it is perfectly rational. We all get got sometimes so there's nothing to be ashamed about by being taken in. It's an opportunity for growth and part of what makes antinatalism so evil and insidious is that it encourages a worldview that shuts people off from that aspect of life. Good luck.

>>22051873
No. I'm going for a walk. See >>22051887.

>>22051887
>5 minutes ago was playing point and laugh at the loser he's gonna kill himself
hrm

>>22051894
I accept your concession.

>>22049911
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqeN2RRR3xQ

>>22049911
>>22051286

I'm not an anti-natalist but I'm also not a natalist
For me this is just an emotional reaction really, I'm not basing this on anything philosophically rigorous

>>22051913
>This conversation doesn't actually matter for anything and it's only the weight that you yourself put into it that makes it real
Whatever you need to tell yourself, anon. You should go outside too.

>>22051944
>Whatever you need to tell yourself
Gaslighting isn't very christlike.

>>22051286
>"Wow, that sure sounds like a lovely landscape! Please, describe it to us."

>>22049911
Because a bunch of leaves and trees are as pleasurable as the gruelling pain of everyday existence.

>>22051961
how many blind people do you know, non-blind anon?
>>22051994
are you in pain right now?

>>22052004
One cannot not be in pain. Its literally designed into the biological code

>>22052007
I'm not a biological human then because I'm not in pain right now

>>22049911
Anti-natalism is worthless without active spiritual practice that prepares you to escape the Arch*ns upon death. No point not having children if you end up being fucked by other means

>>22051389
Wow I guess I should just trust journalists, the most trustworthy of all professionals. Fucking retard.

>>22052018
Can you prove its untrustworthy or is that just cope? You obviously haven't read the interview or else your'd know the reporter was sympathetic to Benatar's arguments.

>>22052018
Reminder: those who profess anti-natalist beliefs are more likely to suffer from personality disorders and mental illness.

>>22052037
While this doesn't mean that anti-natalist arguments can be dismissed solely due to this fact and are unworthy of discussion; it does add context to why autists continuously make these threads and are completely unable to understand why they are wrong. It also has direct implications regarding Benatar's quality of life argument (i.e. anti-natalists are stuck in a rigid ideological system as a cope for to sustain their defective worldview).

>>22052037
The antinatalists you'll encounter on this board are at a complete poverty when it comes to weighing quality of life. Their defective nature simply precludes them from accepting any rationalization outside of their own self-indoctrination. They don't necessarily mean to be disingenuous because such is simply written into their nature.

>>22052037
Their argument:
>antinatalists central claim is that life is harm
>they argue that you have to be alive to feel pleasure and stress this isn't guaranteed
>they argue that if you're not alive you are guaranteed not to suffer/harm
>[no guarentee of pleasure, risk of suffering/harm, therefore nonexistence is best = basic thread of argument]
>note: they also like to being up that the fact you don't have a choice in coming into existence
>they conclude that not reproducing and ending life is the optimal outcome to reduce harm

Why they're refuted:
>antinatalists can't validate their central claim as they cannot weigh the total value of life in aggregate (the best they can do is assert individual bad things happen)
>[this is all the refutation that is needed: they cannot draw logic, let alone an extreme conclusion, from a central claim they are unable to prove; simple as--but lets go on to point out their bad logic]
>they place the weight of guaranteed outcomes on detractors but they don't have prescience to forsee the outcome/value of individual lives (let alone the aggregate of all life which they are assuming) but...
>antinatalists are attempting to prove their conclusion and thereby the onus is on them produce a stable logic based on a proven premise
>however, any single example of value in life automatically contravienes their premise and contradicts the logic they attempt to assert
>[antinatalists are generally filtered by this because they still affirm their premise even though reason has been given to reject it]
>we may come to the idea of suicide and ending life (which is logically coherent with their outlook while showing their values are actually incosistent)
>suicide automatically means an end to suffering, any harm caused doesn't exist for the victim (aside, the absence of existence means you can't even weigh such anyway)
>denial of suicide is an affirmation that value exists in life (or else why not? note that they won't even admit that suffering is short relative to continued existence, they really want to avoid clearly weighing anything)
>if the antinatalist says it affects others a consistent logic follows that they kill them as well (the sooner the better in fact--stop them from reproducing which puts an end to countless future lives)
>alas, the anti-natalist will assert their original logic no longer applies once they are alive (again, affirming the value of existing and demonstrating their logic can actually be harmful)
>the last bastion is they HAD no choice to exist (convienently it doesn't matter that they have one now) but again there are plenty of examples of lives worth living

https://old.reddit.com/r/NarrativeDynamics/comments/13bzqha/aho_mitakuye_oyasin_all_my_relations/

>>22052047
>defective
Aren't a large amount of successful people overlapping with some part of the dark triad? Look at Trump, narcissism gets you the presidency.

>>22052037
Why antinatalists are retarded:
>no matter how many times you point out how AND why their premise is ungrounded they will still assert you must argue within the logic it sets out
>no matter how many times you point out the logic is inconsistent they retreat to the idea of their unfounded premise and assert it follows naturally
>no matter the absurdities you can show as consistent with their reasoning (i.e. you shouldn't kill yourself let alone others) they will simply change the rules
>life is valuable once it exists and yet we need to stop it from existing...that's what their bullshit boils down to and it's utterly stupid

At this point it's worthwhile to point out antinatalists will ignore strong arguments against their case and use any excuse to stay within their own logic. It must also be noted that trolls responses of "I guess I'll kill myself and others" are retarded: the point is life is valuable and you fail to prove otherwise. You affirm an extreme conclusion, ending all life, based on a demonstrably flawed premise and inconsistent logic. Refuted.

>>22051322
>it's even better in reality
I've seen people go from completely miserable to absolutely thriving by cultivating deep relationships with nature. My parents were absolute nature-lovers, and they along with many others all cultivated a life-long love of nature that has only grown stronger and deeper with the passage of time.

Love of nature that comes from intimate experience is a fundamental spirituality that knows no religion, and is common to all.

>>22052057
First, the majority of people who suffer from mental illness (e.g. depression) and personality disorders aren't successful--it's a hinderance hence being classified as an illness. Second, those that are successful usually have other uncommon traits (e.g. intelligence, high stress tolerance, etc) that allow them to attain success (i.e. it's not that they have a personality disoder). Third, while there are different varieties of narcissism I doubt Trump has a clinical pathology (although it's fair to label his behavior as colloquially narcissistic but then you risk bringing your own TDS into the conversation).

>>22052091
>I doubt Trump has a clinical pathology
How can someone be so blind, lack self-awareness so completely as to make such a statement? I mean I KNOW, but it's still dumbfounding to witness.

>>22052078
“Nature” = matter devoid of intellect and reason, governed by the celestial jailers

Your parents got filtered, and will fall for the classic archon memes upon death i.e “the colors are so much better here!” shit that NDErs report

>>22052091
>Second, those that are successful usually have other uncommon traits (e.g. intelligence, high stress tolerance, etc) that allow them to attain success (i.e. it's not that they have a personality disoder).
Forget Trump for a sec since your TDS comment shows that issue is a loss. More generally, I vaguely remember reading something about how the most successful people are usually some degree of sociopathic, narcissistic, etc etc.

>>22052037
Bruh I literally don't even agree with Anti-natalism, but you in your intellectual midgetry could find no way to respond other than assuming and attacking my motives. It's pathetic.

>>22052097
My boy, you have no idea who I am or the life I have lived. And you don't care, the only thing you care about is perpetuating your self-inflicted misery that has become so insane that it's driven you to pure delusion. You're in a filter bubble, only paying attention to miserable people like you, because misery loves company.

>>22052096
>slides into TDS
As I said, it's fair to label him as narcissistic in a colloquial sense and I personally don't like the guy and consider him to be a false prophet. Stop projecting and stay on topic, retard.

>>22052097
>“Nature” = matter devoid of intellect and reason, governed by the celestial jailers
matter is only appearance, nature has an essence that isn't material, it's just how it's presented to your senses. all of nature is alive and you are part of nature.

>>22052057
>>22052091
Trump was born with Regulus (the king’s star) rising in the east. That’s why he’s President and why people are magnetized by him. You people are so clueless!

>>22052111
No I am trying to warn you and give you real wisdom. Your happiness is just rejoicement at the good fate allotted by the wicked beings of the stars. And what they give they take away

>>22052121
I am not nature and neither are you. You fell in love with nature and that’s why you fell into this awful evil hellhole as punishment

>>22052116
>uses the term TDS but claims to not like Trump
wat
If you don't like the guy then you know that he is literally a Kim Kardashian tier famous-for-nothing empty airhead reality TV blowhard. He's always been a joke, and then that joke gets voted into office by idiots.
It's not derangement, it's correctly reacting to an insane turn of events.

>>22052132
>No I am trying to warn you and give you real wisdom. Your happiness is just rejoicement at the good fate allotted by the wicked beings of the stars. And what they give they take away

Where do you get your wisdom? Where is your experience? Don't throw books at me.

>>22052100
Read the other points that were made, retard. First, there's a difference between being successful due to having a personality disorder and being successful in spite of having a personality disorder. Yes, it's true that certain personality traits associated with the dark triade can be beneficial when it comes to social manipulation. However, most of the time they're a hinderance and it takes a very special set of other factors to be able to overcome the negative repurcussions of them. Second, you can argue that a given environment requires decision making abilities that reflect traits one would associate with the dark triade. However, this doesn't necessarily mean that a person in that environment making such decisions has a personality profile indicative of such. For example, I saw a security guard kick a homeless person out of an ATM shelter just the other day. If you think about it that's pretty heartless but I doubt the security guard has a personality disorder. Third, when it comes to antinatlism there's a comorbidity with mental illness (i.e. depression). That indicates negative ideation and lessens the likelihood of being successful or having a realistic worldview you can work from.
>>22052133
>now he's talking about Kim Kardashian
You're retarded. Stay on topic or fuck off.

>>22052132
>I am not nature and neither are you.
have you tried not eating?

>>22052013
Your value judgement on this matter is redundant. Or maybe you actually aren't a biological human.

>>22052153
cope desu
thanks for playing
I thought you may have had a paper showing that successful people aren't associated with "defective" traits but I guess not.

>>22052140
The entire wisdom tradition starting from the Chaldeans

>>22052156
Your body is nature what you really are is not. Of course if you attain real liberation you can starve yourself like some of the Cathars did.

>>22052161
>Your value judgement on this matter is redundant.
my suffering can only be felt if I recognize it. You can't tell me I'm in pain if I don't feel it. it's the antinatalist argument who tries to make subjective pain into objective truth

>>22052170
I didn't ask you for other people's so-called "wisdom." I'm asking for yours.

>>22052179
Pain IS an objective truth. This is what people who can't feel pain look like

https://youtu.be/0qDLZx1WJ8o

>>22052170
>Your body is nature what you really are is not.
what you really are is nature, and your body is also nature, because what you call nature isn't the material/ the appearance, if you go further there's the essence of the material appearance of what you call nature, which is what nature really is, just like you say that you're not your body.

>>22052192
that is clearly a disorder anon...

>>22052238
Exactly. Pain is so fundamentally ingrained that the permanent state of no pain is literally a disorder. Which ironically brings in more pain.

>>22052256
No anon, if you can feel pain but don't feel it you're not in pain.
if you can't feel pain then you can't feel pain.
this is such a stupid argument.

>>22049911
I for one am glad we humans exist. I just would make one small change.... Scuttling every colony ship that left england and the like!

>>22050307
So what are you gonna do about it?
Seriously. What you gonna do about it?

>>22050948
I actually agree with you.

>>22051286
Where are the 6 billion other faggots we need to coexist with in this image

>>22049911
More like the harm of cooming in your mom kek

>>22052102
So you don't have any evidence the interview is bias, haven't read it, and it's pure cope on your part. Also, stop playing the victim card or go back to plebbit you summer faggot.
>>22052169
>has no retort
I accept your concession

>>22049911
I choose life. Come take it if you think you can.

i agree with anti-natalists, but only in that anti-natalists should not breed
they are too mentally weak to deserve to procreate

>>22051834
You replied to your own post which you yourself deleted, retard. Did you take my advice and go outside?

>>22049911
He's indisputably correct and that's the exact reason why he's wrong. His logic is impeccable and he follows the logical consequences of living in a purposeless universe flawlessly. But his conclusion is clearly absurd. What's the real takeaway? His primary presupposition that there is no God and life serves no purpose is mistaken.

Benatar shows the incoherence of atheism and it is for that reason he's the perfect example to show of why Theism is correct.

>>22052078
You're a loser posting on 4chan. Learn to shut the fuck up and listen.

>>22052268
> if you can feel pain but don't feel it

I agree. This is indeed a stupid thing to say

>>22052847
>His primary presupposition that there is no God

And I thought this was going to reveal to some profound reveal

>>22052847
>His primary presupposition that there is no God

Theism is presuppositional. Atheism is a conclusion, not a premise. It may look the other way around if you're projecting.

>>22049911
>>22051286
Bruh

>It is only due to a predominance of influences that are not only entirely morally indifferent, but indeed — from a human perspective — indescribably cruel, that nature has been capable of constructive action. Specifically, it is solely by way of the relentless, brutal culling of populations that any complex or adaptive traits have been sieved — with torturous inefficiency — from the chaos of natural existence. All health, beauty, intelligence, and social grace has been teased from a vast butcher’s yard of unbounded carnage, requiring incalculable eons of massacre to draw forth even the subtlest of advantages. This is not only a matter of the bloody grinding mills of selection, either, but also of the innumerable mutational abominations thrown up by the madness of chance, as it pursues its directionless path to some negligible preservable trait, and then — still further — of the unavowable horrors that ‘fitness’ (or sheer survival) itself predominantly entails. We are a minuscule sample of agonized matter, comprising genetic survival monsters, fished from a cosmic ocean of vile mutants, by a pitiless killing machine of infinite appetite. (This is still, perhaps, to put an irresponsibly positive spin on the story, but it should suffice for our purposes here.)

-Nick Land

>>22049911
>>22051286
>>22053053
Bruh

>The tragedy of a species becoming unfit for life by overevolving one ability is not confined to humankind. Thus it is thought, for instance, that certain deer in paleontological times succumbed as they acquired overly-heavy horns. The mutations must be considered blind, they work, are thrown forth, without any contact of interest with their environment.

>In depressive states, the mind may be seen in the image of such an antler, in all its fantastic splendour pinning its bearer to the ground.

Zapffe, The Last Messiah

>>22053019
NTA but all Benatar does is make a tautological argument that hinges upon the assertion that existence means suffering whereas nonexistence is the absence of such, therefore nonexistence is superior to existence. Ideologues who subscribe to this won't accept arguments that don't allow them a monopoly on how the tautological should be interpreted and will dodge the point when you demonstrate how their thesis can lead to morally absurd outcomes (i.e. the justification of suicide and murder).

Benatar bolsters this with his "quality of life" argument which forwards the idea you can say life is generally not worth living (he even goes as far as to make arguments about how bad things happen to you after you're dead--like your grave being desecrated, which is absurd as he argues you don't exist at that point but oh well). The reason he does this is to shield the monopoly of how the tautological he presents should be interpreted and to guard against people who reject the idea he can claim the sum total of existence amounts to sufferering. There's also criticism as far as suffering having meaning that can be offered but antinatalists only want you to focus on the fact meaningless suffering exists.

Basically, it's an interesting philosophical argument that has a lot of holes in it and valid criticism to knock it down. However, it's created a lot of ideologues who latch on to it's ideas and present it as their worldview--as discussed above it attracts people who suffer from mental illness and have a proclivity for comorbidity with dark trade traits (i.e. the last people you'd want as final arbiters on what existence means to others). If you're new, there's a few of them on this board and they constantly spam David Benatar threads regardless of how many times the above is pointed out to them, in even greater detail and in direct response to their posts, and they're BTFO.

>>22053047
>Theism is presuppositional
>Atheism is a conclusion
These are mutually exclusive. Atheism is presumed, not deducted.

>>22053019
Basically if you're an atheist you have no grounds to deny Benatars conclusion. It's sound. Of course if you deny his core presupposition that there is no telos in creation then his argument is false. Thus Theism surpasses and negates antinatalism even as worldviews that deny God cannot ever really escape from it's conclusion

>>22053078
I haven't read Benatar but from what I know he does elucidate a distinction in the morality of not having children and that of murder/suicide etc.

>>22053085
But theism is not true. So if we follow this line of reasoning then anti natalism is indeed the correct opinion. Though I am skeptical .

>>22053144
It falls apart because the tautologies he presents can be fairly interpreted that way. On top of that he freely admits his own ideas cause harm and doesn't offer a very good defense of why this should be excused.

>>22053154
Sure it can be interpreted that way. But the anti-natal ethic seems to be that you don't actually hurt anyone by bringing nobody into this world. Infact you the potential suffering of future generations.

>>22053165
Killing people prevents their offspring from being born and eliminates any suffering they may experience in the future. Suicide instantly grants nonexistence which is preferable to existing according to antinatalism. It also emphasizes personal agency.

>>22053165
>>22053169
Note this is said to point out the moral absurdity of antinatalism and not to advocate in favor of such.

>>22053151
But antinatalism is absurd. If antinatilism is correct then suicide is also correct. One cannot live while affirming antinatalism without becoming a grotesque walking contradiction. Do you prefer to live as the laughable embodiment of the absurdity of denying God or would you prefer to accept something more rational.

>>22053169
As I said and I repeat, the anti natal ethic argues that not bringing people into this world prevents future suffering WITHOUT causing any suffering in the process.

That cannot be said for murder.

>>22053176
There are people who do believe that there's nothing wrong with suicide.

>>22053184
Does the past suffering even factor in if you accomplish the extinction of the human race? Doing it "humanely" seems entirely unnecessary

>>22053184
As I said, antinatalists response to pointing out the logical absurdities of their argument is to deny by asserting you accept their interpretation of the tautologies. That's what you're doing right now.

the world sometimes looks pretty therefore every suffering is negated and nigerians should shit out 10 kids each.

>>22049911
Notice the organisms in these pictures caught up in a meaningless struggle to outcompete and suffocate each other.