/lit/ - Literature

/lit/ - Literature

>>22009257
Performing arts such as theatre do go in literature since librettos and plays are read as literature independently

>>22009151
I don't have an Opera house near me, so my experience with the medium is limited. Even so I was shocked at how poor some of the execution was in the synchronized dancing scenes in the Met's production of Der Rosenkavalier were. People completely out of step with each other, I've seen better in High School theatre.
I don't want to go full /pol/ with how much they're trying to push shit like Champion as being in the same league as Opera's that have stood for centuries, but It does seem that their interest in acquire new audience has forced them to put aside concerns of quality and execution for some of the standard productions.

>>22009301
Have you seen any ballets? Even local ballets tend to btfo high-end opera productions in terms of choreography. You can pay through the nose for an opera or Shakespeare and though the talent in terms of voice might be magnificent, the choreography can a mess, both in motion and in set and consume. If the stage is blank with crayon scribbles and the talent has jeans and t-shirt with goofy hats, it passes for avant-garde. When ballet is avant-garde the expectations are for a visual masterpiece, and classical ballet choreography is still very common and cherished whereas classical opera choreography is getting very rare

>>22009387
I've not. I live in a really podunk town; having a cinema that rebroadcasts the Met operas is a miracle. Do you have any that were recorded that you recommend? I'd like to get into the art form.

>>22009151
Because ballet is fascistic, Sontag was right.

>>22009151
ballet has insane gatekeeping and basically everyone who enjoys it does so exactly because of all the tradition and niceties.
your average enjoyer will call out a subpar landing on a jump, for how high class it all is.
i wonder if i could get anything serious going starting to dance at 20. or even just be decent.
kinda afraid, if i am to blogpost.

If I may entertain this idea; on second glance it’s similar to going to high school or jr league enthusiasm toward youth athleticism. A PM runs classical events until tenured then joins the ability to freelance which would be an outlier in their yield of classical works of tip toe Barbie dance club.

Uh... ballet has been getting weird. I mean, what's the point of lift to stand on someone's shoulder in pointe shoes? I know originally it was a show of force, but that basically went with pointe shoes and women, and it's weird to try to combine the two. A lot of companies seem to be doing things like that to impress other companies or dancers, but it's not like they're stacking dudes, and the aesthetic impression on the audience isn't really impressive to them. Some things where the audience doesn't understand the immense forces involved are impressive regardless, like most the Cheshire Cat jumps, but a lot of new lifts are basically there for dancers to get technical points from other dancers while the audience is like
>Is this going somewhere?
t. Pretending any of you know shit about ballet

>>22009257
A classical ballet has to have a story. Essentially, if it's not /lit/, it's not ballet.

>>22009151
>opera and theatre are increasingly looking like a garage sale
absolute nonsense
pls explain what you're talking about??
also helpful: where do you live that this is the case (guessing an American university town)

>>22009558
I’d like to rape that cunt

>>22009851
Story != literature

>>22009908
It does in that context.

>>22009926
So the ultimate artistic expression of ballet is through the written word and not the performance itself?

>>22009932
Where in the text are you proposing anyone said that?

>>22009151
Ballet has a higher barrier of entry and is still gatekept by aesthetic conservatives of the upper classes, whereas everyone can slap together a stage and do theatre on it. As for opera getting a crummy aesthetic, I haven't seen much of it, but then again I rarely go to the opera, mostly when I am in Vienna (usually once a year).

>>22009301
I saw the Zauberflöte at the Royal Albert Hall during the proms some years back, and some of the stage direction was hilariously designed to be popular. The part where Papageno and Papagena have found each other and are to establish a nice, bourgeois little family, had Papageno dry-humping Papagena from behind, behind an oven on the stage - the oven then opened and started shooting out dolls of babies with cannon-like force, one after the other, with so much power that one of the baby-dolls had its limbs ripped off mid-flight. It was all very good fun, but clearly designed to satisfy whatever Norf F.C. types had been dragged into the hall by their wives with bachelor's degrees.

>>22009387
Ballet dancers are hyper-neurotic and the stakes are literally perfection or high chance of suicide. It is another case of zero chill implying great art.

>>22009558
You should print that comment.
Keep it in a safe place.
Then, years from now, when you're no longer an undergrad and you're somewhere with peers, take it out and read it aloud.

>>22009877
I'm not the person you're addressing, but I'm guessing he's referring to those 'Regietheater' productions that are intentionally in bad taste and/or ugly, like the picrel of the recent Ring in Bayreuth, one that virtually no one liked. The recent Ring in Unter den Linden in Berlin is also pretty ugly, with a 1970s bad taste look, and there is also this trend of setting German operas in a sort of 1950s Biedermeyer blandness, as in the recent Flying Dutchman in Bayreuth. It's very much a thing, alas.

>>22009988
These are the 'Valkyries'.

>>22009528
not that guy, but:

https://www.medici.tv/en/ballets/

https://national.ballet.ca/Explore/YOU-dance/Livestream

https://www.roh.org.uk/news/royal-opera-house-launches-its-brand-new-streaming-service-online

https://www.marquee.tv/categories-ballet

And I've bought great several ballets on Apple, though I don't know if this is offered in the USA.

>>22009985
>you should be a burnt-out wage-slave in your 30s to evaluate claims
While I agree his undergraduate fervor is pretty gay, so is your implication.

>>22009995
i implied zero about burned-out wage slaves or being in your 30's.
you brought that to the picnic, maybe you should ask yourself why.

>>22009974
>It was all very good fun, but clearly designed to satisfy whatever Norf F.C. types had been dragged into the hall by their wives with bachelor's degrees.
The Magic Flute was always meant to be a Hanswurst kind of deal, but snobs don't like Mozart and Schikaneder to have a sense of humour or folksy bawdiness, so for most of the 20th Century they kind of ignored it was a comedy.

>>22009973
I'm just confused, then, how dance = literature?What is it exactly are you proposing? Dance with a story = literature? Literature is not the artistic expression through the written word?

>>22010000
>No I can't provide evidence for what I said from the text
>But you should view me as competent to define literature
Literature and the literary arts are probably not your strong suit, especially as you tried to confine it to "artistic expression through the written word" which obviously eliminates a lot of canon.

Whenever I feel depressed about prose and poetry going out with a whimper I think of drama dying an absolutely embarrassing death over an entire century and instantly feel a little more thankful for what little we have still, or that save for the recent trend of modernized and politically corrected editions and translations there's only so little people can do to rape a text compared to a drama.

>>22009988
>the recent Ring in Bayreuth, one that virtually no one liked.
Valentin Schwartz's production, I assume?
>33 years old
>Austrian
>" I want to tell a story of today's people, today's characters, problems today - and none of gods, dwarfs, giants and dragons."

>>22010016
No I can't provide evidence for what I said from the text
? I said as much that I'm unsure what you're proposing.
>But you should view me as competent to define literature
I never proposed that. In fact, yes, maybe the literature and the literary arts aren't for me. I'd like to learn more though to clear up my ignorance.

Can you define literature?

>>22010025
>No I can't provide evidence for what I said from the text
Then why propose it?
>>But you should view me as competent to define literature
>I never proposed that.
Then why the rhetorical question from which I could quote? There's clear evidence in the text that was your line of thought.
>I'd like to learn more though to clear up my ignorance.
I think you'll just use that to gatekeep slightly better, based on this thread, and you won't correct either of the practices above, condemning you to mediocrity at best.

>>22010024
I wonder who the audience is supposed to be for these productions. Upper-middle class liberals, obviously, but with politicized art there's always the contradiction of the audience overwhelmingly being made up of people who already agree with the message of the work. Why preach to the choir, then? The only explanation I can think of is that politicized art is written to express intra-tribal allegiance and loyalty despite nominally being aimed outwards at an audience who the work is meant to proselytize.

>>22010033
I'm still confused what you're saying. So let me clarify: I'm not sure what you're saying when you said "story in that context = literature" as in >>22009926
Second, I don't view myself as competent to define literature. I have my definition, but if it's wrong I'll change it.

>condemning you to mediocrity at best
I'm afraid you're right. But that won't stop me from trying to learn when I know I am ignorant of something.

So what is literature? And how is dance literature? Can you or can you not answer those questions?

I feel there's been a different approach. The high arts have all navigated their creeping irrelevance differently. Painting has always done plebesides better than anybody else, Literature has attempted to follow suit, and not all that successfully for the most part, Classical music I fear is fighting a losing battle with Hollywood and video game soundtracks. While the compound arts, such as Opera in the Ballet have been downsizing at an astonishing rait. Performances are getting rare, and regional theaters have all but disappeared so that most artists just tour the same big cities endlessly.

The other problem is the feeding mechanism that both ballet and Opera require. Kids have to be trained from a very young ll age, and singing seems to have dropped very low on the agenda while dancing is still seen as an appropriate thing to send your child to. Drama theaters I seen more and more as a feeding trough for Hollywood, which at least means they'll survive. Please have also managed to do plebiscite much better than say literature has.

This is all a long way of saying that the high arts have sunken low indeed. My ex who used to play the violin professionally, has gone into fancy, rich people child care, just because the money wasn't good enough rich people are the only ones who still throw money at having their child enriched that way. It's no longer aspirational for the middle classes to be anything but a programmer or a lawyer.

>>22010045
>But that won't stop me from trying to learn when I know I am ignorant of something.
Anon said it specifically would because of your style of inquiry. You can't just barge into a conversation trying to correct someone who knows their shit, and then beg them like this to be kind enough to educate you after you strawmanned them. He literally said, in the same sentence you partially quoted, that not fixing the style of inquiry you are using is going to get you gatekept harder than you tried to gatekeep literature.

>>22010085
I feel like a common thread among these is the disappearance of a cultured class both on the performing and the receptive end, and the ever-worsening intellectual stagnancy and circlejerkiness of the high arts.

>>22009528


Royal Ballet’s production of Giselle
https://youtu.be/GoG5izkLe-Y

Bolshoi Swan Lake
https://youtu.be/nb3T5VXh3g0

Really there are a ton of great ballets you can even watch in full on YouTube

Here is a full length production of Romeo and Juliet, and if you have read the play you will find the ballet has an impressive degree of detail in covering the scenes

https://youtu.be/-hM0B70F1YM


but if you want recent stuff like Anon posted here is good
>>22009994
I personally subscribe to marquee for high-def and recent performances. But if you ever get a chance to see a ballet in person, even a cheap one that is ten bucks and mostly boomers in the audience, I highly recommend you go. Ballet even on the amateur level is such serious art form

the Vncouver Symphony Orchestra puts on a nearly sold-out calendar every year, same as NYC and LA, I believe. Those are very rich cities, but I'm sure classical music performance, theatre, and opera do quite well in most places.

>>22010117
Also if you want to check out avant-garde ballet, I recommend 1984 and Young Me, just so you can compare how much higher the standards are compared to avant-garde theatre and opera

https://youtu.be/jMclzcnorkk

https://youtu.be/vAzd340sUrc

Bump

>>22009151
Opera is dangerous (see Wagner) and the Jews got hold of it.

>>22011364
Dangerous? People prefer Netflix

>>22009151
>/lit/ - Literature

>>22012111
Ballet is performed literature

>>>/tv/

>>22009151
Modern theatre, and by that I mean what has singing or speaking (since dancers are kind of isolated from it), is such a total dearth of talent that they've lost perhaps the most essential element, the instinct for plastic shaping. An understanding for lucidity and what impresses. The senses, as well as the minds through progressive ideology, of theatre actors and directors have been entirely perverted. They cannot even feel what is right anymore, it is all just a shallow delusion.

>>22012445
Ballet isn’t cinema

>>22012459
I consider ballet theatre of a sort. Greek drama originally featured both singing and dancing. Later spoken theatre separated from sung theatre in opera. Later the dancing and singing separated for a few reasons but especially because the grueling physical activity of ballet combined with singing leads to a total loss of breath. Ballet is, as it were, an extension and emphasis on the physical actions of dramatic theatre, whereas most opera and spoken theatre can be be perfectly understood and followed without the visuals, but simply clear articulation or a libretto where that is not always possible (as during choral elements)

>>22010117
>>22009994
Thanks anons
Probably grab a Medici TV pass next day off and see how I like the art form.

>>22012874
Enjoy, Anon. To me, ballet is the highest art form ever developed. It completely filters every partaken without taste as will as every creator without talent.

>>22012874
Enjoy, Anon. To me, ballet is the highest art form ever developed. It completely filters every partaken without taste as will as every creator without talent.

>>22013012
You deleted your first post and tried again and still fucked up

>>22009151
Just saw the Charlotte Ballet's Peter Pan. Cute, short, and lovely. I was travelling there for business, so being able to see a production at all was a real treat. Would return to see something more serious. No particular critiques (beyond too much money spent on a shite set), just good vibes.

>>22013045
If you ever get a chance to see it, Tales from Beatrix Potter is also cute like that.

Ballet is a musical achievement, not a literary one.

>>22013281
>music and literature are mutually exclusive

>>22009151
I don't know desu. I just attend ballet to stare at the hot ballerinas through my binoculars

I saw Accidental Death of an Anarchist at the Lyric and it was funny as fuck

>>22014344
What about the heckin ballerinos?

>>22009151
>Why has ballet managed to stay so aesthetic...

>>22014616
>heckin
kys redditor faggot and never reply to me again

>>22014634
>...whereas opera and theatre are increasingly looking like a garage sale?

>>22012786
>Ballet is, as it were, an extension and emphasis on the physical actions of dramatic theatre,
You mean fencing.

>>22010024
Then how about you write your own fucking story instead of r*ping the classics ffs

Stop going to shitty operas?
Like, obviously you'll have more crappy theatre than ballet because the minimum level is way higher.

>>22015055
No. Fencing is something like ballet though, in fact my old fencing instructor said taking ballet augments a fencer’s skill tremendously. Fencing is not used to tell a story though, it is only a competitive sport between two opponents

>>22015070
World class opera and theatre is also generally of a much lower quality, even if relatively high. The Royal Shakespeare Company is totally btfo by any ballet choreography of decent level (the Globe does sometimes do very high standards but has been slipping lately) and another world from world class ballet. I say that as someone who LOVE theatre and opera, even poorly choreographed productions.

>>22009151
Kek look at those goofy costumes. Peak larping.

>>22015721
>No. Fencing is something like ballet though
No, ballet literally is a stage performance derived from fencing. Most dance is derived from martial arts, and ballet's movements and poses derive from fencing. They have modified over the years to include women, and therefore pointe, and generated different poses but it's originally performed by men in heels showing their military prowess. That's why the first notation we have for ballet is the Sun King's entrance as Apollo. The reason you can tell Russian from English or Italian ballet is because of the later developments, and the reason you can date a ballet by its story and poses is by how it departs from fencing and the martial aspect.

>>22009151
when was the last time you went to an actual opera? Operas have been fine.

>>22009151
I started listening to opera a bit now. Anybody happen to live in the DFW area? I'd like to go to an opera and was wondering how good it is here

>>22015819
If you haven't been before, any opera is likely to be awesome. It's only when you've been a few times, and the initial grandeur has worn off, that you start to notice the little things they are getting wrong. Like the first time you stayed at a really good hotel

>>22009151
Less theater kids involved.

>>22009151
Ballet must be aesthetically pleasing. Aesthetics is the second most important part of Ballet being only behind the dancing itself. Any deviation in Ballet can end up badly with entire careers ruined. Ballet is serious shit and the people involved take it seriously. Although people are trying to "modernize" Ballet like they did with Opera I don't think it will succeed in the long run

>>22009151
Strong in body, strong in mind.

Physical fitness is the key.

>>22015887
the alternative to modernizing is losing audiences until it becomes impossible to live off it and the general quality lowers since every "pro" is also driving uber or something. Which is more or less what happened to Opera.

>>22015819
I live in the DFW area, haven’t been to the opera. If you’re down we could check one out together

>>22015898
>Which is more or less what happened to Opera.
Are you fucking retarded? Almost every major opera house plays modernized versions of classic operas. Nobody fucking likes them except posh liberals. Opera's losing audiences precisely because it keeps modernizing and alienating the casual viewer.

>>22015854
Okay I'll just check one out. I heterogeneity discount as a student too so shouldn't hurt
>>22015923
I think I'd be down. Don't expect someone too cultured though. I mostly just like the sound and emotion in the music but it's something I'd really like to experience

>>22015940
Which one were you planning on?

>>22015927
Covent Garden have been playing Eyre's utterly conventional La Traviata for the last 25 years. What are you talking about?

>>22015998
Not sure yet. Do you know what’s playing? Or you could choose. Also, I don’t know if this matters to you or not, but I am trans.

>>22015998
>>22016048
Kek
Giacomo Puccini? It's a whiles out, but there's plenty of other coming earlier. I am brown if that matters

>giacomo boipuccini

>>22016076
If you have a discord or something, drop it. We’ll try to set a particular day etc and place to meet up. I’ll look into what’s available

>>22016095
I can't wait for /lit/ to be feature in a true crime podcast!

>>22016095
>>22016102
Fuck it
pablos doritos#1848.
If you know if any of the ones coming up are good, let me know

>>22016133
People report discords posted on 4chan to the fbi for “certain crimes.” That anon probably asked you for your discord just to do that. Good luck, anon.

>>22016133
bro you did not just…

>>22016037
An exception to the rule. Or are you so stupid you haven't seen what the Paris Opera and Bayreuth have been doing for the past few decades?

>>22016159
kys faggot i wasn’t talking about paris

>>22016147
What could he possibly report for. And why not report the hundreds on soc
Anyway he never messaged so my organs are safe

>>22016162
This is a thread about Ballet and Opera in general you autistic troglodyte

>>22009151
because you have to be skinny and have an amount of grace to your movement. only gay men and biological women can do it

>>22016228
>only gay men
kekekekeke those bros signed up because it's a sport with an upper height limit that demands you can ohp a woman by the pussy

>>22016253
>an upper height
What's that? Is it like gymnastics where it's harder the larger you are, or is it an anesthetic thing?

>>22016283
Aesthetics and safety. You want everyone to be a similar height to not stand out in a company, and there's weight and height limits because of jumps and things where your partner is going to have to balance out forces with you.

>>22016192
I already saw the post but I just got off work. I’ll hit you up after I have found a good one and I know I will be free. Will probably be a ways off though

>>22016283
>>22016292 this is for men. For women there's more restrictions, like a lot of companies get their feet x-rayed or bone density tests to prove they won't fuck themselves up, and the aesthetics of their legs and hips are more important. Men have more strength focus, but women have to be strong and flexible while also keeping under a weight their partner can lift and that won't break their foot by balancing on it.

>>22016292
This is why men have to have a lot more upper body strength (to pick women up and dance gracefully with them in the air) and women a lot more lower body strength (since unlike men they have to do certain movements on the very tip of their tow so the front in on the ground, which requires a show with a special block tip)

>>22016326
I think they start in the fall, looking at the schedule

>>22015887
I have already posted examples of modernized ballet, like Young Men and 1984. There are also modernized versions of classical ballet like Giselle and Swan Lake. The two differences is that this movement in ballet has zero intention to be something that displaces classical ballet but is rather is something experimental done alongside it, a minority which coexists: classical ballet is treated almost like a sacred text to connoisseurs including the experimentalists, you don’t displace it. The other difference is that modernized ballet is actually very visually and dramatically powerful, of high artistic achievement, rather than half-ass as we see with other modernized mediums.

>>22016340
It's not really that they need more upper body strength. Most female ballet dancers could lift their male partner. It's just men generally won't be able to do pointe. The block and box for women spreads their weight across their toes, and their shoes have a shank built into the sole to spread the force and not collapse their arches. It's about being strong and low weight enough to be able to do pointe. Some men can, but you're eliminating most male dancers if you want them to do pointe work just because of the weight and support issues. The shoes help a lot but they can only help so much so women who don't have toes suited to pointe generally don't get to do it either, but that's a smaller percentage than it would be for men.

>>22016372
I doubt most female ballet dancers could dance gracefully while carrying a man, I don’t even think they could lift one gracefully no matter how light he is

>>22016417
Lifting gracefully is about form, not strength, and both women and men need a lot of both upper and lower body strength to do jumps or have graceful arms. Women spend much more time with their arms above their head while also in poses and moving that requires immense strength. They're compact, but to do jumps you need to be able to propel yourself into the air, which means both men and women need lower body strength. The physical limitations on men are because to be able to do what women can do in canvas shoes and no blocks, they will be above a weight they could do pointe. The physical limitation for women after weight is flexibility and strength balance: women can get strong enough to do jumps which require both, but generally the most complex ones will eliminate women by flexibility. To be strong enough to jump high enough to adopt some poses mid air, you basically have to be a genetic freak of a woman.

>>22016463
>Women spend much more time with their arms above their head while also in poses and moving that requires immense strength
That requires muscular stamina, not absolute strength. Are you realky this stupid?

>>22016472
>He thinks female ballet dancers won't lift you with bad form if they want to show you how you tried to fuck up their liver by being shit
kekek

>>22016463
what do you find to be the prettiest jumps in some variation anon?
i'd say the Albrecht variation, and the finale of Don Quixote a not so close second.

i reckon a ballerina couldn't really lift a danseur properly, everything considered. they usually put on much more weight, on top of naturally being heavier. the whole deal about pointe and strength basically falls down to the square-cube law in a sense.

>>22016491
Female ballet dancers aren’t strong enough to lift 180+ pounds overhead

>>22016491
Good job on not knowing anything about physical conditioning, mr. redditor

>>22016495
>they usually put on much more weight, on top of naturally being heavier
They can't put on too much weight, not least because other males have to catch them.
>a ballerina couldn't really lift a danseur properly, everything considered.
This is a really ignorant thing to say. A ballerina is the lead, and besides a choreographer, the most likely to be able to lift anyone. As for lifting in excess of body weight, a ballerina is definitely going to win against most choreographers. It's really not a weird thing for ballet dancers to be able to lift each other. They're chosen to be within a strict general weight limit and with similar strength and flexibility barriers.

This guy seems really mad ballet dancers lift each other for fun and punishment.

>>22016515
Eh? He's trying to explain why he thinks female dancers are "immensely" strong. Idiot? Yes. Mad? I don't think so.

>>22016522
Ballerinas are some of the toughest women there are. If you tried to fuck with one, she WILL break your arm and make you cry

>>22016522
They are immensely strong. They also lift females. Flexibility and core strength are what makes you excel in ballet, so there is a natural female advantage, but the male strength benefit present in other athletics doesn't pose a barrier to females in it. It's not like anyone is lifting 150kg in the competitive sport you don't understand. Could men win if it were about lifting 150kg? Sure, but that's weightlifting. We're talking about a sport where 57kg can be too heavy for the tallest male.

>>22016509
yes, but literal physiology makes it so that men can naturally lift more.
women aren't as strong as men.

>>22016608
>>>/pol/

>>22016612
reddit response

>>22016608
See >>22016558
A 50kg woman lifting a 57kg male is not some violation of the laws of physics, nor is the opposite.