/lit/ - Literature

>>22008413
Mmmmmm salamis

>>22008413
I imagine that Sanskrit is significantly harder than Greek and obviously Latin, but is it harder or easier than Classical Chinese?

>>22008413
>Battle of Σαλαμίς
Βεβασισμένον

>>22008431
That depends on what you mean by "harder". Sanskrit, like all fusional languages, has a huge number of suffixes that you have memorize. Comprehension of some construction is gated behind a set minimum of suffixes that have to be memorized, meaning that you can actually quantify the amount of language understood as minimum-suffixes+vocabulary.

Classical Chinese, like all of the analytical Sino-Tibetan languages, is by contrast, all vocabulary. There's no "grammar" in the sense of "fusional morphology", just rough orderings and patterns and characters that convey grammatical principles. The entire language is just vocabulary, and it never ends. You can, in theory, say that you are "done" learning Sanskrit at some point, but you can never "stop" learning Classical Chinese unless you stop reading Classical Chinese texts. This means that you are required to learn a huge number of characters, many of which have very specific and niche uses, and many of these uses can totally upend the "normal" grammatical constructions. Furthermore, the number and rarity of these characters means that you will end up having an external reference. This isn't a joke, this is how Sinologists deal with older Chinese languages, by constantly consulting references and eventually making their own. This is in contrast to the very shallow entry ("我吃高肉“ means "I eat dog meat", congrats you now know 4 characters of Chinese), meaning that you never hit a point where you "know" Classical Chinese, because you're always elbow-deep in Sinology. Many of the oldest texts are only "readable" by virtue of you being told by commentators what they mean (to be fair though, this is in part because of the huge amount of context that just isn't in the text; the Analects suffer from this).

Also, Classical Chinese is gated behind Mandarin (or, if you're autistic, Cantonese), so if you want to get the most out of Classical Chinese you have to learn Mandarin to engage in the Sinological minutiae (the vast majority of which is done in Mandarin).

>>22008590
>高
This should be 狗 btw, so now you know 5 characters.

>>22008590
I have been reading some classical texts like the Analects in big brick-sized versions that annotate every single character, giving extensive descriptions/definitions ALONGSIDE multiple major translators' translations of those characters, and it's a lot of fun. If you have an IQ above room temperature and you can turn each major concept/character into a "field" that presumably fluctuates based on different specialized use contexts and of course draws upon some initial meaning complex that actually made up the term in its pre-specialized use in the Zhou period or whatever the fuck, you can sort of make yourself feel like a bootleg Sinologist for an an hour.

how does the lil guy do it

>>22008707
>ad rem

>>22008707
Wait till he says 'res' or 'agere'

I finished Cp. XXX today of the funny orange book. hopefully I'll have all summer to prepare for RA, what should I buy

>>22008331
>pure
in what way? I'm asking genuinely. are you talking about the physical position of meus or what?

Fellow Wheelock chads?

>>22008871
I like RA. if you plan on going through it, even if not the whole thing, you should buy/download Jeanne Neumann's companion if you don't have it already: it's indispensible imo. that said, you should be able to dive into authentic Latin with a decent amount of ease if you've gone through FR thoroughly; though, of course, some authors will be easier than others. if you're inclined in that way, I would personally recommend getting a reader of Caesar, Catullus, Cicero, Eutropius, or some other author who is known to have relatively staightforward and/or not too long of writings (Cicero can have long sentences, but in my experience the clauses within clauses are kept fairly neatly). though if you have enough motivation to start with someone/some work that's relatively harder, by all means go for it qtπ

Does anyone have experience studying Latin and Greek in a university setting? I am in dubio on whether to study that or history

>>22009207
>does anyone have experience studying Latin and Greek in a university setting?
yeah
>I am in dubio
why is that? what specific question(s) do you have about studying classics at a university?

>>22009227
I fear that studying Latin and Greek in a formal settings, with exams, will kill the joy I find in it. And whether or not studying it in a formal setting has added value over studying it alone.
I have the same worries for a history degree, but to a lesser degree.

>>22008871
>>22009188
https://dcc.dickinson dot edu/caesar/book-1/chapter-1-1
is what I've been using for Caesar. I haven't finished FR, I'm close to cp XXX, but I've been using this and other readers, i.e. Ritchie's Fabulae Facilies, and it's been pretty smooth and enjoyable

>>22009305
>I fear that studying Latin and Greek in a formal setting, with exams, will kill the joy I find in it
I'm not sure how much my experience is worth, as I came into classics from in large part having an interest in languages. so while I have interests in the content (mythology, philosophy, even some history and other things), that base interest in the languages themselves was enough to get me through my undergrad. you said you're studying the languages now: what all do you enjoy about it? what author(s) are you mainly interested in?
>And whether or not studying it in a formal setting has added value over studying it alone
that depends on you, your interests, and the professors you meet. I had multiple revelations in reading/understanding Latin and Greek thanks to some of my professors, which I don't think readily would've come from a textbook or reader alone. and perhaps if you are an extroverted person you can find a friend or two - though in my experience most people in classics these days are gay normies. aside from asking around elsewhere (say emailing grad students in either history or classics and asking their experience with both, if they do in fact have such experience), if you have the chance, maybe you can major in history if you ultimately decide on going to university and take a Latin or Greek course on the side and see how you like it

>>22009314
>Gallia est omnis divisa in partes tres
what do you call it when what is/looks like a perfect passive construction (est...divisa) but has a present sense? I've seen it elsewhere but I can't remember the name

>>22009382
I already know quite a bit of Latin and Greek from highschool.
Some authors I am interested in are: Pliny the Elder, Vergilius, Lucretius
I am in the EU, so the culture around the Classics and History is one leading towards "based".

>>22009407
as long as you've been studying Latin and Greek, what have you enjoyed about them? to what extent is it the languages and to what extent is it understanding classical authors/figures? if you have a strong interest in reading classical texts in their original languages AND history, then you should enjoy studying classics in post-secondary school. there may be a lame teacher, but you should still be able to get something valueable from a class. also, if you plan on making a career out of history and/or classics, you'll have to do some studying of it outside of class anyways. so even if one of your classes may not be ideal, you can/should still study it own your own and maintain your enjoyment that way

why does every latin beginner-intermediate reader turn into sucking Roman dick and expressing how heckin awesome they were at fighting? every kid in every Latin reader wants to be a Roman soldier growing up. they're all the same and its pissing me off.

>>22009606
>its pissing me off
why do you care? How does it affect you? Just read and move on. Grow up.

>>22009646
Just let me sperg, anon. I know I should be reading as much Latin as I can, and there's tons of readers on archives (which I'm grateful for), but all the content is the fkin same. I'm impatient and want to jump in the deep end, but I don't know enough yet.

>>22009657
vincit qui patitur, anone

>>22009207
I would definitely choose Classics over history, much less woke, and you actually get a skill out of it. Classics is still woke af but less so. I'm someone who resents formal structure, but I benefit greatly from it. I definitely benefitted from all of my language classes.

>>22009606
It's all the same because those readers are written by unimaginative morons. I'd move on to reading real Latin asap.

How do I wean myself off reading Latin with a dictionary? I have the basic grammar down, but I can't read fluently without a dictionary in my hand. I'm not sure how I should practice writing either.

>>22009406
>looks like a perfect passive construction (est...divisa) but has a present sense?
Anon, that's called an adjective.

>>22010275
well you just started the basic long treacherous journey people learning languages in general go through, vocabulary absorption; except in this case the only kind of input you have to go forward is for the most written, so I'm afraid there isn't much you can do except read more and more; perhaps consider re-reading anything you go through, I usually read whatever I'm reading two or three times divided in chapters/paragraphs/whatever, one first read to really understand, second read to cement it
idk about output, I tried proposing various challenges or output goals ITT but none seems to pick up speed

>>22010295
yes, you could describe 'divisa' as a predicate adjective, but I believe there's another term in Latin for perfect passive forms with a present sense

>>22009188
What about the LLPSI readers Sermones and Gallic Wars, are they a good bridge?

>>22009185
I bought the book I have summer classes in a few weeks
I've been watching Pink Skull aka polymathy here and there, it's not actually studying but I like getting the pronunciation right away

>>22010738
yeah I like their readers too. I have Sermons Romani and Ars Amatoria and have looked at a handful of others briefly (including the Gallic Wars). if you enjoy FR and want to read some Caesar, Virgil, Ovid, Plautus, or whatever other author/work they have a reader of, their readers are a good next step imo

Had a discussion about LLPSI with a friend from uni. He complained that the grammar sections don't cover cum clauses, conditionals, indirect questions, the sequences of tenses, etc.
I'm 19 chapters in, and while I can't prejudicate on the rest, I feel that although the grammar sections don't cover them, the chapters themselves do teach you cum and sī clauses, which come to you naturally assuming you're a native speaker of a European language with similar constructions—in my case, French.
Regardless, LLPSI does feel incomplete on its own, and supplementing it with some grammar feels necessary if you're serious about learning Latin. Recently, I've taken to using GPT-4 to answer any question I might have about Latin grammar. I send the prompts in Latin and get replies in Latin, so I've actually had to learn about gerundives to understand what it's saying.

>>22011107
>I've taken to using GPT-4 to answer any question I might have about Latin grammar.
Don't do this. It gets a lot of basic shit wrong.

>>22011142
Yeah I noticed that, it sometimes confuses different ablatives for example.

>>22011163
I just asked it about the Dative of Agent and it started rambling about the ablative. Please get a book or watch Latin Tutorial on YouTube. His videos are the best.

>>22011166
Thanks for the suggestion. I think I might just start Wheelock.

>>22011180
I'm working through it right now after doing like 30 chapters of LLPSI. The grammar is quite a breeze, but the sentences are a lot more challenging because you can't just rely on following the gist of an ongoing story or looking at the pictures and notes. When I was on chapter 25 of LLPSI, I was getting stumped by sentences in the first 15 chapters of wheelock. I think it's worth it to use both.

>>22011225
>When I was on chapter 25 of LLPSI, I was getting stumped by sentences in the first 15 chapters of wheelock
Lel you were right. It's not insanely hard but I can't simply breeze through it either.

Why so many LLPSI shills? I remember it being used in Latin class and it was horrible. Everyone that used LLPSI was far behind the other students who actually had a textbook

>>22011554
llpsi is fine, but it's not perfect. the problem with with other textbooks is the lack of content, the problem with llpsi is the lack of grammar explanations. it's not as much of a problem if you understand the broader context of the stories, though. still I think some of the grammar should be explicitly explained. also 1. most classics students don't know what they're doing, and 2. success in a course doesn't necessarily mean success. most of my fellow students in university did well in Latin and Greek in high school with normal textbooks and clearly did not belong in university classics courses, so the professors had to baby them to some extent to get half decent grades

>>22009606
>expressing how heckin awesome they were at fighting
I believe this is because Caesar's writings are seen as the most accessible for beginners so they are trying to get people comfortable with frequently repeated words and their morphology before they have a go at his works.
Battles and military dispositions (see Xenophon) are also some of the easier pieces of literature in greek as well (highly formulaic, and much of the context can be inferred).

>>22011538
>Lel you were right. It's not insanely hard but I can't simply breeze through it either.
I think that's one of the weaknesses of that reading method is that you feel like you are at a much higher level than you actually are. It's true the context is a better way to learn, but you can rely on guessing too much and when faced with a compound sentence without pictures and a story to follow you are forced have to pay attention to every word more carefully. Especially when you have entire chapters in LLPSI written in only one tense, you stop paying much attention to the verb endings and I think it's actually harmful and makes you a lazy reader.
>>22011554
>Why so many LLPSI shills?
Definitely not shilling it, just talking about experiences using it. It's a very underwhelming book but has some merit as a first graded reader.

>>22011142
>>22011163
>>22011166
try asking chatgpt about the locative, it more or less knows how it works but always gets the case endings wrong

>>22011999
I shudder to think people are trying to learn languages from this thing. Maybe you could pull off Spanish or French, but man you are playing with fire trying to learn Latin from scratch with this thing. Seriously people, just get a used copy of Wheelock, it's cheap. Even Wikipedia is more reliable if you are that stingy.

If you want to see how bad it is, pull up De Bello Gallico and pick a random line like 17 or 40. Ask it to write that line out and it will write out a completely different sentence, I've even caught it making shit up. For example I asked it to explain a grammar function and it provided "sentences from Cicero". Thankfully I went to the alleged epistle and ctrl F - the sentence was nowhere to be found. Not even 3 consecutive words matched anything.

>>22011107
A friend and I asked Chat GPT to find how many times a word occurs in a short passage of Cicero we provided, and it couldn't do it. It also tried gaslighting us, hilarious. Chat GPT sucks, and AI hype is hot air.

>reading some Platōn
>it's engaging
>I'm learning
>daily progress
>studying more than originally planned comes naturally
feels good bros. may you all find an author or work that brings you fulfilment

What are some good medieval authors after LLPSI Pars I?

>>22012607
>medieval
I'm not saying you do, but if you just mean/are willing to allow all post-classical authors, Augustine is very readable. I found Descartes to have pretty straightforward prose too. but as far as medieval proper, Aquinas is a pretty easy read, though his manner of argumentation might be a little bit to get used to. even if you're not Christian, which I myself am not, there are things to take away from it (in both subject matter and grammar)

>>22012607
try some Eginhard

I'm reading Hyginus right now and I've only done two stories, but holy shit this guy's Latin is bad. Should I just read Phaedrus' Fabulae instead?

https://archive.org/details/l-068-greek-anthology-ii-books-7-8/L186%20-%20Josephus%20I%20-%20The%20Life.%20Against%20Apion/page/n15/mode/2up

https://archive.org/details/l-496-hesiod-the-homeric-hymns-and-homerica/L496%20-%20Hesiod%2C%20the%20Homeric%20Hymns%2C%20and%20Homerica/page/79/mode/2up

https://archive.org/details/l-116-sallust-war-with-catilin/L006%20-%20Catullus%20-%20Catullus.%20Tibullus/

Various greek and latin texts from loeb classical library

>>22012932
>The poor quality of these works lead most to believe they are either wrongly attributed to this distinguished scholar or are a later abridgement of his works composed by a C2nd grammarian.
Theoi Classical Texts Library agrees with you.

Question to anons who know Chinese language/culture:
is there a type of rectitation of chinese classical text, that's analogus to the recitation of Qur'an, Vedas, Pali Canon or Hebrew cantilation?
Listening to cantilation of the hebrew bible helped me a lot with my Hebrew, the same with listening to surah's in Arabic, I'd love to learn Chinese, but I'm scared, that it does not have this kind of recitation (in this case I will probably start learning Hindi, and then Sanskrit, can anyone explain to me, how similar to each other are they? I'm slavic native speaker, if I know Church Slavonic, how difficult would Sanskrit be for me)

>>22013460
He rendered the pluperfect subjunctive of exedeo, exedere as "exesset" instead of "exedisset".

>>22014569
>He rendered the pluperfect subjunctive of exedeo, exedere as "exesset" instead of "exedisset".
that could simply be interpreted as syncopation, which was not uncommon in classical Latin, even with the pluperfect subjunctive where you drop the penult. e.g., amasset for amavisset, nosset for novisset, audisset for audivisset. you'll more often see it in poetry for at least metrical purposes, but you can even see syncopation in some of Cicero's speeches, for instance

>>22015107
I've seen in with the perfect active infinitive, but never plu. subj. Thank you, I will keep this in mind. That being said, Hyginus Latin is still a bit weird imo.

>>22015107
Thank you, I'll keep an eye out for this.

>>22008622
ISBN? OR name of text?

>>22013816
Yes, there's multiple, one for every century in every language/dialect in fact. As the Chinese languages kept developing, the Chinese would read older texts using the phonology of their vernacular at the time. For example 好 hao3 (good) was pronounced "qhʔuʔ", and 好 hao4 (to like) was pronounced "qhʔuʔ-s". 中 zhong1 (central) was pronounced "truŋ", and 中 zhong4 (to center) was pronounced "truŋ-s".

There's about 3,000 years of phonological development there, yes that collapse of a suffix (-s) that turned nouns into verbs lead to a 3/4 tone split, and yes this means that Classical Chinese texts and commentaries on them are incredibly fucking complicated because a text from 500BC being commented on in 500AD and 1500AD will be read completely differently by the two commentators.

>I'm slavic native speaker, if I know Church Slavonic, how difficult would Sanskrit be for me)
I've seen Ruskis say that Sanskrit was actually really easy because their brains were already setup for memorizing huge amounts of fusional morphology.

whatch'y'all noggs reading? was going through some Xenophon last night and found it relatively easy, though there a lot of proper names I don't know. also going through some of Catullus's poems on the Latin side and reading a translation of the Odyssey

>>22017412
Some De Bello Gallico and Ritchie's reader. Have any recommendations for some more ~intermediate Latin? Haven't tried any poetry yet, don't know how accessible it might be at my level

>>22008413
Does anyone know of any good graded readers for biblical hebrew? Preferably something more early intermediate or late beginner level

>>22017412
finished book XV of the Iliad yesterday, gonna reread it today in one gulp; also on the eleventh book of the Aeneid, finally getting there

>>22018168
Try reading book of Rut by yourself, it's not that hard. I don't know any Hebrew readers כי למדתי בעצמי. If you are looking for easy parts of the Hebrew Bible, I can give you some advice, try starting from Rut, then try reading parts of Bereshit - תולדות parts are very easy, and can help you master the reading, if you play some recitation on yt. Ester is not that hard either, the same goes for prophets like Jonah. Postpone reading psalms and poetry, they are not very hard grammaticaly, but they have use plenty of synonyms, which can confuse even advanced reader.

Can anyone recommend resources/materials for Ottoman Turkish?

>>22008590
>Many of the oldest texts are only "readable" by virtue of you being told by commentators what they mean
Isn't this basically how Latin works as well?
I heard that you start with Lingua Latina and Wheelock, learn a bunch of vocabulary and grammar, then open the easiest Latin text and be totally unable to read it because they are all idiosyncratic.

>>22011107
Don't rely on GPT as others have said already. Get Allen & Greennough's Latin Grammar book. It's the best Latin grammar book.

>>22018479
No, each Latin author has their own distinctive style but you can definitely comprehend what they're saying. You just need to read 5-10 pages to get used to their style and after that you're plain sailing.

I know this general is for classical language, but any tips for reading in a foreign language, more specifically poetry?
italian is my third language, I can watch movies without subtitles and read day-to-day texts eg newspapers without any problems and without having to check the dictionary at all.
When I try to read a book though it feels like a chore, it's quite slow.
Should I just push through until the reading starts flowing because although I know the language minimally I need practice actually reading? Or is there a better technique I'm missing?

>>22018092
>De Bello Gallico
how far along are you and how are you liking it?
>Ritchie's reader
I've heard of that but haven't read any of it. any good?
>any recommendations for some more ~intermediate Latin? haven't tried any poetry yet...
hard to say how easy it'll be for ya, but of the poets I've read (Virgil, Horace, Ovid, Catullus, some Propertius) Catullus is the easiest imo. I got a longman Latin reader a couple years ago of Catullus and Horace for a class and have been going back through it recently and have been pleasantly surprised how easy and short Catullus' poems are compared to some Ovid stuff I've been reading lately. maybe give him a shot
>>22018299
>one gulp
idk why but I laughed when I read that. I'm gonna start using that now myself
>book XV of the Iliad
>the eleventh book of the Aeneid
good stuff. are you enjoying it or is it more so something you feel like you have to get through? I had some trepidation about reading the Iliad in Greek, but I took a course a course over it and my professor was good so he helped a lot and I eventually got used to the style. I like parts of the Iliad, but the Aeneid and Odyssey are more interesting to me personally. once I get done going back over my Catullus reader I'm gonna start going through a reader of the Aeneid

>>22019158
There is no secret sauce. All I can say is that if reading books feels like a slog, you should try reading different books.

>>22019168
>how far along are you and how are you liking it?
I'm 20 or so chapters into Book 1, using the Dickinson site for some notes and vocab, but I'm really liking it and it's going pretty smoothly, but it's only book 1, 4 and 6 I think, not the full work.
>I've heard of that but haven't read any of it. any good?
I've liked it so far, starts off with exclusively indicative then partway through starts introducing more subjunctive clauses and other phrasing which you'd find in caesar (e.g. stuff like 'certior factus est'; copia in reference to troops etc.) so It's been nice vocab/construction prep for DBG. And coming from Familia Romana it was nice to have the ablative cases explained in english, that's probably the best thing i learned from it, which makes me think I should checkout a bona fide grammar book to supplement my reading.

>>22019168
>are you enjoying it or is it more so something you feel like you have to get through?
mmh bit of both, on one hand I definitely want to achieve it as a sort of crowning goal of ~2.5/3 years of studying Greek, on the other it does drag on a bit too much at times, especially the last books I've been reading before the return of Achilles, though still, I kinda enjoy it it, especially on the full book re-read in meter after I've gone through it once or twice to get the meaning down

>>22013816
>>22016167
I think he's talking about recordings, Anon. And in that case it's true, Classical Chinese is the odd one out that hardly has any, because everyone just learns Mandarin pronunciation, which has too many homophones to be comprehensible.

>>22008590
> (to be fair though, this is in part because of the huge amount of context that just isn't in the text; the Analects suffer from this)
Every CC learner talks about Confucian and Taoist prose, but I'm wondering why no one ever talks about some of the Twenty-Four Histories. They're surely they're much easier than philosophical writings, no? And they're positively endless, they should work great for comprehensive input, even if they're boring.

t. 知三言之古文者

>>22019158
>italian is my third language, I can watch movies without subtitles and read day-to-day texts eg newspapers without any problems and without having to check the dictionary at all.
>When I try to read a book though it feels like a chore, it's quite slow.
It sounds like you have a pretty good command of Italian. Can you communicate with others effectively? Have you taken any tests that prove you actually know the language, as you seem to do? I ask this last question just out of my own curiosity.
Since you seem to be able to understand everything but books, I'd suggest trying to listen to audiobooks, and if that doesn't work, something like Italian Joe Rogan. Studying vocab again isn't the worst thing in the world.

Anyone here learnt Gothic?

>>22009185

I just took the Wheelock pill after struggling with LLPSI:

>get Familia Romana
>read along with sexy bald man
>do workbooks, keep getting hung up on things
>have to make my own grammar notes out of LLPSI's "magic"
>cases for a declension spread out over 4 chapters
>5th chapter: "here's actually the complete picture"
>now personal pronouns are just sprayed at me, no rhyme or reason, "good luck bucko!"
>learning curve becomes a learning cliff face
>say fuckit and get pic related, need something in ENGLISH to teach what is going on
>realize I now simply have a scatterbrained equivalent of Wheelock's

I wanted to love LLPSI but it just doesn't work for me going solo. Maybe its a different experience in a proper immersion class. Whatever, I'm flying through Wheelock's because it's a proper textbook. I'll come back to LLPSI and see what I missed.

>>22016167
>>22019673
I think you misunderstood me:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-8Z31JFbmY
This is sura al fajr in Arabic, recited in traditional style of recitation, even if I don't understand all vocabulary in the text, I can easily memorise it, because I listen to it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lW5WByctPsw&t=1715s
This is Rigveda recited, I don't even speak the language, but I love the traditional recitation. I know it would accelerate my knowledge of the language significantly if I'd start learning it.

Is there a similar tradition for sacred Chinese texts in any tradition?
e.g. can you easily find Tao te ching or some sutras or analects of Confucius (or anything else) recited?
They don't have to be recited in classical Chinese, the pronunciation has to be considered traditional, even if the tradition is ever-changing.

>>22019742
...yeah
*puts black nail polish on*

>>22019809
I'm >>22019673, and I believe I understood correctly that you're looking for recordings, but there seems to be some kind of confusion, when you write
> They don't have to be recited in classical Chinese, the pronunciation has to be considered traditional, even if the tradition is ever-changing.
Classical Chinese is just the written language of the Tao Te Ching and the Analects. In fact, there's some doubt about whether it ever was a spoken language in the first place, just to make it clear that it might really be the odd one out. There are different traditions when it comes to pronouncing this language, but they don't make for good recordings for various reasons:
* Mandarin speakers simply use a Mandarin pronunciation for the texts, but that has too many homophones, so it won't be intelligible to someone who doesn't already know the text.
* The Japanese do something weird (Kanbun), where they read the characters out of order to be more like Japanese.
* There's a reconstructed Middle Chinese pronunciation, which works for poetry, and for which you can find some recordings. But hardly anyone seems to bother, and using that pronunciation for the Tao Te Ching and the Analects is an anachronism anyhow, as those works are much older.

By the way, my
> t. 知三言之古文者
is supposed to say something like "t. someone who knows three words of Classical Chinese", so take everything I wrote with a grain of salt.

>>22019626
>I'm 20 or so chapters into Book 1, using the Dickinson site for some notes and vocab, but I'm really liking it and it's going pretty smoothly, but it's only book 1, 4 and 6 I think, not the full work.
is Caesar more so a stepping stone for you or is he one of your main interests for Latin authors?
>which makes me think I should checkout a bona fide grammar book to supplement my reading
I would definitely recommend that too. I think depending on your experience, willingness, and intellegence you can get pretty far with lingua latina grammatically, but at some point (sooner rather than later imo) you should also read a proper grammar to make sure you understand what's going on. I actually like the lingua latina series on the whole, certainly more than a lot of other people here, but I doubt anyone walks away with a complete and proper understanding of all the grammar introduced with just the Latin itself. maybe my IQ's too low though, idk
>I definitely want to achieve it as a sort of crowning goal of ~2.5/3 years of studying Greek
what got you into Greek in the first place? but going through it and being able to say you understand most of the Greek is definitely something to be proud of I would say

>>22019972
the last bit is meant for >>22019635

>>22019972
>is Caesar more so a stepping stone for you or is he one of your main interests for Latin authors?
It's a bit of both, I wanted to read him at the outset but I also understand he's really a jumping off point when it comes to authentic classical prose. I also want to eventually read stuff like Livy and Cicero etc into later periods like Augustine and Boethius. As for poetry my highest goals are the Aeneid and the Metamorphoses. But for both prose and poetry I want to discover and read more authors than I'm currently aware of in my relatively cursory knowledge.

>>22019975
thx
I don't even remember exactly the reason when I began with Greek, years ago I had begun studying German for various reasons(one could say that was my first foreign language as english is so pervasive you learn it almost naturally as second language), that process of daily language apprehension is something I liked doing so eventually, also for muh heritage reasons, I started learning some Latin too(in fact I largely left German aside except for some little daily input); then after a couple of years of Latin when I was already past the grammar and well into the input phase I think I felt like it was only natural to take a look at Greek too, and I really took my time with it with Athenaze, but it was worth it I think
really goes to show how grinding a language daily even for just one hour pays off eventually if you are constant

>>22019931
And you can tell how little I know about CC by the fact that I used 之 the wrong way around.

>>22019738
>Can you communicate with others effectively?
I definitely have a problem there.
I can hold a conversation but I sound like an ape that somehow speaks italian.
I have not taken any tests though. Maybe what I'm lacking the most is vocabulary.

>>22019449
>All I can say is that if reading books feels like a slog, you should try reading different books.
Thinking about it, you are absolutely spot on.
I guess the whole time I've been prohibiting myself from reading the italian books I really want because they may be to hard, then I force myself to read easier books I have zero interest in. Couple that with not being that good reading the language in a formal format, it's no wonder it's a slog.

>>22019931
I'm not simply looking for recordings, there are recordings of epic of Gilgamesh in Akkadian. I'm looking for a living tradition of recitation/cantillation.
If it exists it is probably used in temples, and learned by clergymen. I've failed to find anything close to other traditions, but the lack of it would be very surprising, as all other major traditions have it (jews, hindu, theravada, orthodoxy, islam, jainism, catholics and others). I know that some texts like analects, might have been not the best example, but there are probably more sacred texts, used in ritual contexts (like psalms, or some sutras), that have this kind of recitation.
I vaguely remember now, tha my friend send me Japanese recitattion of some buddhist sutras, which is done in a style that I'm looking for https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1vxV9yi8RA&t=257s
If anyone could confirm to me, that there are Chinese texts recited in the same manner, I will start to learn the language, if not, I think I will start with Indian languages for now.

>>22020256
Japanese sutras are simply recited in on'yomi, i.e. the Chinese readings the Japanese imported at various periods in history, in this case tō-on readings imported some time around the Song and Ming eras (despite being named after the Tang). But even these pronounciations changed throughout the centuries—for example, Japanese phonotactics don't allow words to end in consonants other than -n and Middle Chinese tones were translated to long vowels and double consonants, so on'yomi isn't anywhere near a perfect snapshot of how Chinese sounded in the Middle Ages.

From what I gather, you're asking if there exists a tradition of recitation in "Classical Chinese"; no such thing exists, Classical Chinese is a purely written language. For example, Beijing opera is written in Classical Chinese but the characters are read in Mandarin. And as for the readings from the time Classical Chinese became the literary standard, aka Old Chinese, they're lost to time (and no, reconstructions aren't the same thing).

>>22020336
And as >>22016167 what "read in Mandarin" means is constantly shifting because they're just reading it in the vernacular of their day.

>>22019776
>I wanted to love LLPSI
why, because other people told you to?

>>22018168
Modern hebrew children's books

>>22019776
Go to the back of the book and memorize the personal pronouns and read it again, on your own (no bald man since you need to get out meaning out of every sentence painstakingly), also thoughaway your companion, it's just made to make the book compliant with Latin school's standards which go against the entire point of LLPSI, get the Disco if you actually need help (but I wouldn't reccomend it), also don't be afraid to look up words IN THE INDEX (very important)
LLPSI isn't the easy way, it's the hard one, probally the hardest book I've ever read, and requires serious smarts, but if you come out the other way you'll be a better person for it, I'm at Chapter 32 right now, we're gonna make it

How is GPT-4's latin?
Pars II: Desertus

Desertus Californiensis vasta et arida regio est, quae multas species raras animalium et plantarum alit. In hac regione invenitur desertum Mojave, quod inter celebres vias situs est, ut viae Route 66 et Interstate 15.

Pars III: Montes

Montes Californiae sunt magnitudine et varietate notabiles, quorum summus mons Whitney est, altitudine usque ad 14,505 pedes (4,421 metra) perveniens. Montes Sierra Nevada et Cascadia, quae Californiam a reliquis partibus Americae separant, sunt loci popularis recreationis pro excursionibus, scalationibus, et sportibus hiemalibus.

Pars IV: Vallis

Vallis Centralis, quae inter montes Sierra Nevada et Coast Ranges sita est, cor agricolarum Californiensis est. Vallis Centralis fructus, nucibus, vinis, et leguminibus abundat, quibus California in exportationibus agricolarum primas habet. In hac regione, vallis Napa et Sonoma vinis notabilis sunt.

Pars V: Oraque

Ora Californica longitudo 840 millia passuum (1,350 km) extenditur, quae varietatem naturalem et culturalem offert. Urbes magnae, ut Los Angeles et San Francisco, in litore posita sunt, quae turistas e toto orbe terrarum adtrahunt. Ad oram, pulchrae insulae, ut Insula Catalina, et innumerabiles maris species, ut leones marini et balenae, reperiuntur.

>>22021071
Easy to read.

>>22020011
>it's a bit of both
same here. I have to read him for my degree but I also want to better my Latin prose and understand the history of the Gallic wars (to the extent that Caesar's descriptions of it is accurate)
>as for poetry my highest goals are the Aeneid and the Metamorphoses
I've gone through a handful of sections in the Metamorphoses - Pygmalion and Galatea, Baucis and Philemon, Pyramus and Thisbe, Polyphemus and Galatea, Daedalus and Icarus, Apollo and Daphne - and I really liked them. the Metamorphoses is probably my favorite work by Ovid it's a huge work, as I'm sure you know, so there's a lot to potentially like. I'm sure you'll find some of it you like too (maybe most of it)
>But for both prose and poetry I want to discover and read more authors than I'm currently aware of in my relatively cursory knowledge
one of the nice things about classical authors is that they do a fair bit of referencing other writings and authors explicitly, so while of course you could find some catalog of classical authors, you might be more easily guided just by following your interests and seeing what other authors and works come up
>>22020116
>then after a couple of years of Latin when I was already past the grammar and well into the input phase I think I felt like it was only natural to take a look at Greek too, and I really took my time with it with Athenaze, but it was worth it I think
interesting. I was in a similar situation. I had studied Latin, both formally and by myself - for about a couple years, but eventually decided that I wanted to try to do something with classics as a career. I had no experience with ancient Greek but one of my initial interests in classics was Greek philosophers, so Greek was the logical next step for me. I have actually come around to enjoy studying it more, though I do still like a lot of Latin authors and works. my Greek is still not as good as my Latin, but I think the language is more interesting and there's more interesting literature to read. I'm at the point where I am working through some difficult works, but I know eventually all the input I'm getting will be worth it

>>22008555

ορθον μετηνεγκειον ειναι βουλεωμεν;

>>22021033
Shitty recommendation - have you learned any language by reading children's books? Do you speak Hebrew?
They are very problematic: they contain weird vocabulary (words that are not used in everyday language. I've opend one of the most famous Hebrew books for children דירה להשכיר and it's full of archaic grammatical contructions, and words not used outside of poetry. It's not hard for someone who knows Hebrew very well, but for beginner it's frustrating.
IThere is also some gap between modern israeli hebrew and biblical hebrew. For advanced level you have to understand both, but for intermediate it's best to stick with the one you want to learn.
>>22018168
Have you tried the book of rut? Is it hard for you? If it's too hard or too easy I can recommend you something else. We hebrewannons have to help each other.

>>22020336
I'm not looking for "authentic" classical Chinese pronunciation, they can be read in a primitive accent from the suburbs, as long, as there is a tradition of reading it that way. A living and changing tradition of recitation similar to those mentioned by me. They could be read in the modern Beijing dialect, I don't care, as long as this mode of recitation is considered "traditional". Jews have 3 major recitation traditions - from Yemen, the Middle East and Germany, they were all influenced by their native tongues (German Jews were influenced by Yidish, Yemeni by Arabic etc.), but they still form a kind of coherent tradition preserved at least partially orally.
Reconstructions are the exact opposite of what I''m looking for.

>>22021628
>I have actually come around to enjoy studying it more
same, it's a weird feeling but I've heard others says the same, Latin remains somewhat clunky in my head despite my lexicon being at an advantage overall, Greek feels somewhat more structured, idk how to express it

>>22021817
>Have you tried the book of rut? Is it hard for you? If it's too hard or too easy I can recommend you something else.
Something easier than the book of Rut? מה זה?

>>22022487
In english it's retardly written as book or Ruth. על מה שאלת מה זה?
The easiest part of the Bible I can think of are two תולדות from Genesis chapter 5 https://mechon-mamre.org/c/ct/c0105.htm
and chapter 10
https://mechon-mamre.org/c/ct/c0110.htm
they include some new vocabulary (like numbers, but those are very easy to learn), but they are very repetitive, this way you can master all of those words (to be born, to beget etc). After this you can read some stories of the patriarchs, but Ruth is more or less on the same level. Try with those two chapters 2 times each, (divide it to daily portions, and read it in say 2 weeks). Then you can start with parshat לך לך which tells the story of Abraham. If you struggle with new words (there will be a lot), try reading some good english translation day before, this way you can guess some of the new words.

>>22022597
> In english it's retardly written as book or Ruth. על מה שאלת מה זה?
I was just wondering which book you consider easier than the Book of Rut.
But if books are split up in smaller divisions, then there are easier parts, sure (and thanks for the recommendations).
I guess I just have an irrational aversion to reading "selections".

Are there any instances of an intervocalic epithetic /b/ in Grecolatin compounds? This etymology is total bullshit, likely from a rebracketing and a subsequent dictionary search by an English speaker.

>>22020608
>why, because other people told you to?

LLPSI was the first Latin text I ever purchased, its beautiful to look at, and the approach is novel and interesting. But maybe it's something that's better suited to a live group environment.

>>22022662
>epithetic
what do you mean?
in any case, indeed that etymology seems clearly bollocks, the final -oma is common in medical terminology and is derived from Greek, e.g glaucoma, hematoma, lymphoma

>>22021817
I do not know a single word of Hebrew, but I’m confident in my recommendation

>>22023368
What I did was just to ignore it, do the Pensa by finding the answers in the text, and then going on to the next one, eventually it gets slow enough that you can catch up

>>22023800
I'm have only a few chapters left and I can't bother to finish because each one is like 8-9 pages of the most boring horsehit and I can't reread them even one more time to refresh where i left off. Does your strategy actually work? I just want to wrap this thing up and move on to something I actually give a shit about.

>>22019158
Newspaper articles are typically much easier to understand than books because they are more likely to use common vocab and straightforward grammar. Typically, books have lesser used vocabulary and more unusual grammar structures. This is just my experience with French. You probably just need to read more books and it will get better over time.

>>22023920
>boring
Zoomer

>>22022623
The Bible and both Talmuds are not books, they are libraries of human ideas. Don't think about genesis as a book, think about it more as an anthology of stories, you can start with some (תולדות), and then move to other more complicated. Good luck with your study!

Are there any anons with good knowledge of Classical Arabic here? I've read some parts of the Qur'an, which other texts in Arabic do you find interesting and not very hard to understand?
I was thinking about reading some hadith, or something else entirely.

How do you say that a certain kind of fruit is grown (as in cultivated) in a place?

Quoddam pomum/quaedam frux [hic] colitur?

>>22024885
colitur is probably fine, also seritur may work better for cultivation specifically

>>22025823
sero is more for sowing, colo for cultivation. Even in its numerous derivatives colo retains the meaning of cultivate, raise, cause to grow, rear, etc.

Oh shit Latin sisters, Found in Antiquity is shitting on the Downling Method and calling Bald Man an "e-celeb" with a "cult". TROUBLE IN PARADISE?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIqmkpb1Pm4

I'd be glad if you checked if my translation makes sense.

1270. In Kalis in octave of christmass a calf possesing two heads and seven legs was born. its heads were dog-like and (had) dog teeth. one of the heads was in its place and that one was bigger the other a smaller one was placed near it's tail. Itself was a calf possesing calf skin and calf legs it's cadaver's neither dogs nor pigs wanted to eat.

[...]

the same year 13 days before february's kalends (20th of january) on moon's day (monday) around the first hour of the night the sky opened in a shape of the cross above franciscan church in Cracov and out of the opening went out moon-like light and threw its rays through the entirety of cracovian province in such a way that in preacher's(?) church a needle could be found before a lightnings flash. the same year similar light appeared in Stanatek. The same year dieed king of Hungarians Bela.

>>22022597
>In english it's retardly written as book or Ruth.
In Latin TH is pronounced like T retard, it's pronouned Tahms not Thahms

>>22026745
looks ok as far as meaning except maybe the 13 Kal. Februarii refers to 13 days after the 1st(Kalendae) of February

>>22026862
Who cares about normie languages like latin in the context of the Hebrew bible?

>>22026943
>13 days after the 1st(Kalendae) of February
Wouldn't that be Ides?
Also thanks

>>22027110
I mean in the ancient Roman calendar yes but that looks like some medieval text expressing dates from the first of the month as we do. If it were 13 days before I would expect normally something like ante .... Kalendas

>>22027096
Various commentaries and whatnot are written in Latin and do not have a translation. That's one reason to learn Latin for biblical studies.

>>22027281
There are also comments in old church Slavonic and in german, but I don't think they are necessary in order to study the Bible.

I'm 12 chapters into Wheelock and I feel like I've learnt more than in 20 chapters of LLPSI.

>>22026862
don't see the relevance

I'm halfway through Roma Aeterna and I still suck at Latin.

>>22027810
I'm 12 chapters into Wheelock and I feel like I've learnt more than in 20 chapters of LLPSI.
I'm on 27 of Wheelock and 27 of LLPSI and yeah it's best used as a reader and not a textbook.
>>22028021
>I'm halfway through Roma Aeterna and I still suck at Latin.
Maybe you should try some Nepos.

>>22028006
The Bible came to English in Latin, they weren't retards

>>22028021
Have you read the Vulgate NT?

ablative absolute is my favorite, can be so densely packaged compared to english

>>22027364
Sure, but learning one language opens up the possibility to read over 1500 years of study by some of the greatest experts on the Bible of all time. Slavonic does not offer the same. Even so, learning Old Church Slavonic is a worthwhile avenue for some scholars. If you want to just read the Bible in Hebrew, go ahead, but compared to scholars who know several languages, you're the normie you detest.

>>22028616
Also, academia would beg to differ on German. Two study languages are required in both classics and biblical studies. Usually, it's German (#1) and French.

>>22028503
same. I also like predicate past participles modified by an ablative of cause or agent

>>22023920
>final few chapters
oh I thought you were at chapters 5-10 or 16 where all the redditors give up, well then you actually have to go through the boring shit, you've come this far so I don't assume you'd quit just because of this, there's no real other advice than to just do it

>>22028616
I speak German, and I have some knowledge of Old Church Slavonic and a decent understanding of Akkadian. Besides that, I also learn Arabic and Aramaic, I'd say that those languages are not normie at all. I still don't think that latin is important in the Biblical context. Most research on the Bible is done in English, other important languages are German, French Italian and Hebrew. Latin might be important for some religious commentaries, but I'm not interested in what Catholics wrote about the bible in the middle ages. I prefer Jewish commentaries, cause they work on the immediate non-translated text.

>>22029244
>I prefer Jewish commentaries, cause they work on the immediate non-translated text.
I guarantee you that there are 19th century commentaries, catalogs, dictionaries, etc. by German grammarians written in Latin. They weren't simply looking at the Vulgate.
Latin isn't essential to contemporary biblical studies, but it absolutely has a place. Don't learn it if you don't want to or have better things to do, but I'm glad I now have access to over a millennium of Western thought. If I get serious about Aramaic studies, I plan on learning Arabic just because of all the Arabic resources out there for Syriac and the interaction between the two languages.

boomp

>>22030408
βουμπός

>>22028870
Yeah I'll just power through it.

βυμπ

>>22030408
>>22030603
>>22030905
ὢ πόποι ESL sisters I think βάμπ is closer to how anglos would spell it, I've been reproached before

>>22030926
φυκκ θε Αγγλος

>>22026682
Didn't watch the video but she is not wrong about the cult thing.

>>22008590
Based Chinese school-baiting

In Latin, is there any reliable way to guess the perfect stem from the present?

>>22008707
He works hard, versatile little fella. The Latin version of the word "set".

>>22009305
I've taken years of Greek and Latin (for fun) and in my experience, studying in a formal setting helped more because it sort of incentivised me to at least try. Plus, not gonna lie, I got an ego boost because I was consistently the best. Also, the consistency of studying and talking to people about it really helped me absorb and learn.

>>22032029
no but the conjugations have tendencies conscious study of which can help your ability to predict:
https://dcc.dickinson.edu/grammar/latin/classified-lists-verbs-1st-and-2nd-conjugations
https://dcc.dickinson.edu/grammar/latin/classified-lists-verbs-3rd-conjugation
https://dcc.dickinson.edu/grammar/latin/classified-lists-verbs-4th-conjugation

>>22032799
>>22032029
also if it's any consolation, most verbs follow a standard rule (e.g. 1st conj. adds -v- to the stem, 2nd conj. deletes the thematic vowel and adds -u-, etc.) and of those verbs that are not so easy to predict, if they are important you will see them fairly often in whatever you're reading. and if you find them often, this will help you to remember their 3rd principal part. 3rd conj. is the trickiest, but it's not something you should sweat too much desu

>>22032799
>>22032821
Thanks!

>>22032702
>I've taken years of Greek and Latin (for fun) and in my experience, studying in a formal setting helped more because it sort of incentivised me to at least try. Plus, not gonna lie, I got an ego boost because I was consistently the best. Also, the consistency of studying and talking to people about it really helped me absorb and learn.
I totally agree. This anon and I have had the same experience.

Can anyone link me an authoritative source that clearly and explicitly explains how the old Chinese script was readable by everyone in China independently of which of the old Chinese languages they spoke, due to the characters having purely symbolic meaning and little to no phonetic meaning?

>>22033267
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_Chinese

>>22033315
And this is one of the reasons why reconstructed pronunciations are very important.

>>22033315
Traditional Chinese:
《施氏食獅史》
石室詩士施氏,嗜獅,誓食十獅。
氏時時適市視獅。
十時,適十獅適市。
是時,適施氏適市。
氏視是十獅,恃矢勢,使是十獅逝世。
氏拾是十獅屍,適石室。
石室濕,氏使侍拭石室。
石室拭,氏始試食是十獅。
食時,始識是十獅屍,實十石獅屍。
試釋是事。

Pinyin:
« Shī Shì shí shī shǐ »
Shíshì shīshì Shī Shì, shì shī, shì shí shí shī.
Shì shíshí shì shì shì shī.
Shí shí, shì shí shī shì shì.
Shì shí, shì Shī Shì shì shì.
Shì shì shì shí shī, shì shǐ shì, shǐ shì shí shī shìshì.
Shì shí shì shí shī shī, shì shíshì.
Shíshì shī, Shì shǐ shì shì shíshì.
Shíshì shì, Shì shǐ shì shí shì shí shī.
Shí shí, shǐ shí shì shí shī shī, shí shí shí shī shī.
Shì shì shì shì.

Kek

>>22009406
Deponent

>>22034025
respectfully, that's not what I'm talking about either. and divido has active and passive forms

>>22026682 (et >>22031954)
Some autism you have, she literally gives a proper essay at https://foundinantiquity.com/2023/03/11/latin-autodidacts-youre-working-way-too-hard-how-to-learn-latin-by-yourself-in-2023/
The only person who's Dowlinged 200 times is Dowling. 50 is quite sufficient, even Dowling admits this. 20 is a good minimum.

>the inpuuuuutor
>can't even speak latin, just inpuuuuuts

>>22033315
I appreciate the link anon, tho if someone has an even more dumbed down version I'd appreciate it. I'd appreciate a link that specifically explains that all the different languages of China were mutually intelligible via the writing and how the writing was mostly the same despite the languages being different.

>>22009406
Isn't that just a present perfect?

>>22034194
I think the Dowling method is pointless, it's how I memorised the declensions, but when I saw that I also had to write the conjugation paradigms fifty times, I decided to go my own way. Found out after opening Wheelock that there are plenty of mnemonic devices that allow you to remember them.

>>22034543
>declensions
The declensions are so easy to memorize you can fit them all on one page and just tape it above your monitor and you should get it in like 3 days tops.
>conjugations
Writing verb synopses is a more effective way to drill conjugations because you can write more in one sitting and they focus on very specific tenses. Also, as someone who originally wrote whole conjugations out I found that just visually studying the chart daily helped me more than writing anything on paper over the course of several months ever did.

>>22034698
>visually studying the chart daily helped me more than writing anything on paper over the course of several months
Yeah I had the exact same experience.

>>22026682
Femina est vocāre. Haud. Illud est serpens quod verpam nigerissimum atrō adolēs, et ad illustrium Romam despuat. Illa avia numquam erit.

>>22034735
Latinitas oblita

>>22034869
Amice, I have forgotten nothing, I am on my 130th Dowling.

does anyone know where certain grammatical explanations are justified, not simply described? I'm interested in both Latin and Greek, but the thought came to me thinking about Greek. for instance, with non-attributive participles. there are multiple circumstantial participle explanations you can find in grammars (temporal, concessive, causal, etc.), and I think these make sense (based on my understanding around the sentences in which I see participles described in this circumstantial way or that, it *feels* right to me), but again I'm wondering if there's any articles or literature on the justification for the formal description of these concepts/grammatical constructions

>>22035821
>multiple circimstantial participle explanations
I mean descriptions, of course

>>22018435
>and can help you master the reading, if you play some recitation on yt
BART bible solves this problem

>>22022597
>In english it's retardly written as book or Ruth.
translation destroys all the SOVL in the Bible

>>22024300
>The Bible and both Talmuds are not books, they are libraries of human ideas. Don't think about genesis as a book, think about it more as an anthology of stories
I disagree with this

>>22027281
>Various commentaries and whatnot are written in Latin and do not have a translation. That's one reason to learn Latin for biblical studies.
no commentary by a christian is worth anything since they dont follow the bible, thus nothing written in latin is worth for the bible

>>22028616
>by some of the greatest experts on the Bible of all time
if any of those "experts" says there is any biblical basis for obligatory monogamy in the Bible you can safely ignore them. luther passes this test.
https://speakingofpolygamy.com/2018/10/31/reformation-day/

>>22035821
>on the justification for the formal description of these concepts/grammatical constructions
not sure what you mean or where you are trying to get at, do you have an example?
I mean the contrast between description and justification when it comes to language can get blurry as human languages aren't the most logical of things, maybe you mean getting at something more basal like PIE?

>>22036387
i just mean being able to rightly say that a syntax or construction truly exists and is as a grammar describes it. for example, concessive participles in Greek. I think the idea makes sense in the examples in which I have seen them described, and believe that they were used in that way for at least some time, but what is the justification for being able to say it actually existed besides "this seems to make sense" or "it says so in Smyth"? I'm not simply talking about a description like "one circumstantial participle is concessive, this is it's its meaning, this is an example in Homer, in Plato", etc

>>22034698
>>declensions
>The declensions are so easy to memorize you can fit them all on one page and just tape it above your monitor and you should get it in like 3 days tops.
I must be a brainlet then. 2 years in and i still have to double check the third declension from time to time.

>>22036452
idk I still think you are reifying this dichotomy "actually existed" vs description too much and I wouldn't know where to start; like, since you mentioned "concessive participles" I had to look it up because I didn't even remember it was a specific grammatical construction despite reading Greek every other day and meeting it often; not that I'm claiming to be a professor or something, but it reminds me of that one video in Latin by prof. Miraglia, maybe the most viewed of his, where at some point he argues precisely about how for example someone like Erasmus who certainly wasn't an amateur with classical tongues wouldn't even know what "complement of agent" is, because after all a grammar is a useful construction more for those who are learning the language to bridge the gap using their own language not so much an intrinsic property of the target language; not that regular patterns don't exist of course, but their specific categorization into this or that construction is more artificial and is inevitably descriptive
at the very least this is how I see it, maybe someone else can chime in

>>22037237
>2 years in and i still have to double check the third declension from time to time.
I hope you are talking about i-stems only. I have to check the singular ablative sometimes to see if it's i or e for certain words, but that's it. If you have actually been studying for 2 years you should be reading by now anyways.

>>22033343

Oh god not this "shí shì shí " shit...

>2005 anno domini
>decide to autodidact Mandarin Chinese
>do Pimsleur, get lost in learning the characters
>both traditional and simplified because why not
>run Craigslist ad for some random chinamen to practice muh chinese
>get hooked up with adorable Chinese mail order bride who wants to teach me
>her hubby is a fat slob elderly white boomer
>go over to their retirement community home weekly, she serves jasmine tea
>she regularly whips out shit like the shi shi shi story
>other tongue twisters like "zì shì shǐ zì shì, shǐ zì shì shǐ zì"
>records me reading it like a trained baboon in 240p potato vision and posts in on Youtube
>she's so precious I'm just happy to pay her for serving me tea

No I did not succeed in learning Mandarin.

>>22037736
maybe I'm not being clear and/or not understanding you. I don't mean to imply that native Greek speakers had some explicit distinction of a concessive participle, say, and a causal participle - even grammarians, perhaps. I simply mean that it had such a use in the language, that some participles were used in a concessive manner (whether speakers consciously thought of it in such terms or not).
surely you would agree that just because someone describes a part of speech or a word to have/have had a certain meaning/use in a language, it does not mean it was so, right? but of course there are some grammatical constructions/uses of words or other parts of speech that had to exist (otherwise the writings are meaningless). and so for those uses, the semantic/pragmatic value they had for speakers, what is our justification for saying that our descriptions of them are valid besides referencing some grammar or saying that "it makes sense"? I'm just curious to what lengths people have gone or what people have done, to try to argue in favor of such and such a description beyond the basic ways I just described

>>22038940
>I simply mean that it had such a use in the language, that some participles were used in a concessive manner (whether speakers consciously thought of it in such terms or not).
I think I see where you're getting at now, you're really talking about the interpretation of the construction in of itself.
I mean in that case it would be a case of a constant self-reinforced contextual reading + long tradition, which after all constitutes the knowledge of the language i.e in the first case, what could the possible other meaning be if not [X construction]
e.g the example you brought forward of the concessive participle, take these couple of lines from the first book of the Iliad
>Μὴ δ’ οὕτως ἀγαθός περ ἐὼν θεοείκελ’ Ἀχιλλεῦ,
>κλέπτε νόῳ, ἐπεὶ οὐ παρελεύσεαι οὐδέ με πείσεις
understanding the whole context so far up to these lines, that "ἀγαθός περ ἐὼν", considering what ἀγαθός means but also what Μὴ κλέπτε νόῳ is saying, wouldn't leave much space for other interpretations I'd say
but it's an interesting question beyond my modest knowledge, I'd guess you would need to speak with someone who has also familiarity with historical grammar/linguistic commentary to really eviscerate a proposed grammar interpretation based on the whole history of sources
the only ancient grammar I've ever taken a look at, that of Dionysos Thrax, only passingly mentions the μετοχή aka the participle

finished book 11 of Aeneid, almost there
been noticing more and more similes calqued from the Iliad as the book took a more combative turn

>>22040236
Where'd you start with Latin poetry? I'd like to work up to the Aeneid at some point

>>22040325
not them, but I would recommend Catullus. I would definitely start with him before Virgil, Horace, or Terence, at any rate. he's known as being a chief poet in the Latin 'neoteric' poetry movement that shifted away from more grand stuff like epics. so aside from being a lot shorter, the language tends to be less verbose and the subject matter relatively simple. I recommended it to another anon, but I really like the Longman Latin Reader which includes about 1/5th of his extant poems (and some of Horace too. but I'm sure there is one or more other good readers out there

>>22040371
Pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo,
Aureli pathice et cinaede Furi,
Qui me ex versiculis meis putastis,
Quod sunt molliculi, parum pudicum.
Nam castum esse decet pium poetam
Ipsum, versiculos nihil necesse est,
Qui tum denique habent salem ac leporem,
Si sunt molliculi ac parum pudici
Et quod pruriat incitare possunt,
Non dico pueris, sed his pilosis,
Qui duros nequeunt mouere lumbos.
Vos quod milia multa basiorum
Legistis, male me marem putatis?
Pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo.

>>22040391
based, Homer would be proud. I was just going over some of his poems and I forgot how funny 84 is. it's a basic premise, but I just love how you have something like that to contrast with something more "high-brow" like the Aeneid. makes me think of Apuleius' Golden Ass too, where you have witches pissing on people's heads and a donkey shitting diarrhea on people

what the FUCK did Old English sound like? How can anyone possibly know?

>>22041008
>what the FUCK did Latin sound like? How can anyone possibly know?

>>22041008
I don't think we can know completely, and there obviously wasn't a single phonology shared by everyone, but through a combination of modern linguistic study of sound change, individual and comparative analyses of writings and literature (especially literature with meter and rhyme schemes), phonetic descriptions from temporaneous native speakers, there are a number of things we can reasonably say it sounded like and limit what it might've sounded like

>>22040325
personally the Aeneid was where I started in the first place, maybe the Latin itself will be more complex than simpler poetry but the hexameter is fairly easy to get used to, I had always been completely autistic when it comes to poetry including in my own native language and the hexameter is the first one I finally grasped and started enjoying

What’s the best book for learning spoken Greek from around Caesar’s time?

>>22041615
If you're looking for a textbook I'm afraid that doesn't exist.

>>22041615
that's the Koine period, just learn Attic or Koine(basically the same thing as the former but generally a bit simpler) and then adjust your pronunciation accordingly

>>22021659
Ας υπάγομεν εις Σαλαμίναν

>>22012607
Einhard's Charlemagne is very easy to read. Id recommend it as a translation exercise, short enough but still considerable in size to be a project. Though LLPSI won't prepare you for most Medieval authors. It's a challenge for even those who know Classical Latin well to read more difficult Medieval Latin.

is this section of chapter 14 of athenaze 1 saying something like,
I had a father, athenians, being the father of (his) mother, who was among those who fought and died at Marathon (is that correct? I'm not understanding why this is all in the genitive plural, or how εἷς translates to this), and the brother of that one died at salamina fighting under themistocles.

>>22042789
πάππος is grandpa, not father
I had a grandpa, athenians, the father of (my) mother.....
rest is correct
genitive plural because εἷς is one and the construction is partitive, just like english, "one of those(plural)"

>>22042810
oh thanks, I interpreted εἷς as οἷς and it was confusing the hell out of me. This thread surprisingly gives answers way faster than any subreddit or discord server.

>>22042789
>πρὸς ὑμᾶς λέγειν βούλομαι τάδε·
"I wish to say these things here/the following things to you (all)"
>ἐμοὶ ἦν πάππος, ὢ ἄνδρες Ἀθηναῖοι, τῆς μητρὸς πατήρ
"I had a grandfather (lit. "to me there was a grandfather", it's a dative of possession), o Athenian men, the father of my mother". the phrase τῆς μητρὸς πατήρ is in apposition to πάππος. that is, it's just describing/qualifying/clarifying the πάππος.
>ὅς ἦν εἷς τῶν ἐν Μαραθῶνι στρατευσαμένων καὶ τελευτησάντων
"who was one of the (men/soldiers/people) in Marathon (that) campaigned and died" the εἷς + plural genitives here are called partitive genitives or genitives of the whole. it describes some portion of a larger group
>καὶ ὁ ἐκείνου ἀδελφὸς ἐτελεύτησε πρὸσ τῇ Σαλαμῖνι μετὰ θεμιστοκλέους στρατευόμενος
"and his brother (i.e. the brother of my grandfather) died at Salamina campaigning with Themistocles"

How is fitzgerald translation of aeneid
same question for wf jackson(penguin)

>>22011225
If You've finished LLPSI you should be ready to use Bradley's Arnold. It teaches you all the fine points of grammar and usage by making you actually use them yourself. The sentences to translate into Latin are usually pretty lame and annoying, but nothing comes close in terms of teaching you to read and write fluently

Have any of you had success learning Ancient Egyptian? If so, where should I start?

I'm about to start a Classics program, and I discovered that my university actually has a very robust Egyptology department that I could take some courses in

>>22042004
>Einhard's Charlemagne
I took a look at this and it definitely is easier than most texts. Are there similar post-classical texts like this?

>>22040325
>>22040371
Martial has a lot of easy ones too and is also pretty based. I'd recommend actually memorizing poems you like, that way the vocabulary and grammar sticks and you have something to do if you're waiting for a bus or whatever. But you have to practice scansion. It'll be really slow at first if you've never done it, but you'll get better at it and eventually you'll get to know the meters intuitively. Also it isn't cheating to get a Loeb edition as long as you're actually trying to read the Latin

>>22043739
Bede's History of the English Church

Starting Latin subjunctives this week.

>>22043823
coniunctivum discamus omnes!

>>22043823
non vivimus bibamus sed bibimus vivamus

>>22043899
vivamus mea Lesbia atque amemus!

>>22043934
vive bibat nam tua muliere desereris sed vinum fidum est etsi te delectat non

>>22043982
*bibas
my bad

Bros how can I stop autistically worrying about choosing the "right" greek pronunciation... I just know that once I learn it one way I won't be able to switch.
Shall I just go the daddy Allen way of "well, technically, you should pronounce φ θ χ as aspirates but you're probably too retarded to do it so might as well pronounce them the anglo way lolz"?
Did any of you stick with the aspirates and does it at some point stop feeling forced/unnatural or like you're spitting all over your book?

>>22043739
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_of_Tyre#Latin_chronicle
> William's classical education allowed him to compose Latin superior to that of many medieval writers.
That chronicle is about the Kingdom of Jerusalem, established after the First Crusade, so you might want to make it a double feature with the Gesta Francorum, an accessible (and famous in its own right) first hand account of the First Crusade.
There are other writings around that topic, in Latin and in other languages, so you can keep yourself busy for quite some time.

>>22045077
> Bros how can I stop autistically worrying about choosing the "right" greek pronunciation
By realizing that you won't ever speak in Ancient Greek to anyone.

>>22038862
The divide from simplified and traditional is like 20% of characters, widely over-exaggerated. Most are different in small ways like radicals: 话 and 話, but a few times it’s like 惊 and 驚 (completely different). Also, the grammar is dead simple. Hardest part for me was the amount of vocabulary and synonyms. The good news is most spoken vocab is around 5-10k words, but written materials have double that. My wife is Chinese, so that helps too…

>>22045077
I try to used aspirates and it obviously sounds better in my head than it does if I try aloud but 99% of the time you are going to be reading not speaking and you are going to remember if a word has an aspirated or not largely by the letters
at the same time since as I said you ain't realistically going to speak with anyone, it's up to you whether you want to sound in your head like a 500BC Athenian or 200AD Roman from Italy or Egypt or whatever, making those three original aspirates into fricative isn't a big deal, in fact, our favorite bald man made a video showing how in more popular speech some of those changes had been going on from earlier

>>22045085
>he doesn't have friends that speak ancient greek

>>22045586
>My wife is Chinese, so that helps too…
That's the "just be yourself bro" equivalent of language learning.

>>22019776
Each one is different. Personally I like LIPSI because my smooth brain cant comprehend abstract grammatical explanations. This and Duolingo got me at least so far to write some simple sentences and to be able to read simple latin stuff, which is more than I achieved in 10 years of prior on and off learning learning latin with conventional tools.

>>22045601
Yeah, I suppose if The Bald One allows it :D

I do like how in Latin, the reconstructed pronunciation seems to be pretty much agreed upon globally; even though there's still some old farts in Germany or England who stay with the "traditional German/English" pronunciations, they would still agree that the reconstructed way is more accurate, just that they choose not to use it. But if the Latinists do choose to speak together at some nerdy event or whatever, it is quite clear to everyone what they should speek like and can therefore understand eachother.
With Greek, it seems to be more of a free-for-all. Everyone speaks what seems right to them and so there doesn't seem to be much of a nerdy community like there is with the Latinists. Maybe it's a chicker-or-egg type of thing: much fewer learners, so no large community, so no agreed-upon way of speaking, so it's harder to get into because of the ambiguities, so there's fewer learners etc.
Or maybe I'm autistically overthinking again.

>>22046216
eh, I don't know, in both really you have two major camps at the end of the day, the traditional and reconstructed, for Latin ecclesiastical and classical era, for Greek the Erasmian and respective classical era
the main difference maybe is the centralizing nature of Rome as well as the difficulty of certain sounds
but because after all they are so mutually intelligible it really doesn't make much of a difference as e.g someone using a Byzantine or modern Greek pronunciation, Erasmian gets close enough to the reconstructed Attic

>>22046127
>Personally I like LIPSI because my smooth brain cant comprehend abstract grammatical explanations. This and Duolingo got me at least so far to write some simple sentences and to be able to read simple latin stuff
>anime tranny

There you have it folks, confirmation that LLPSI is for lazy trannies and is the duolingo of books. Screenshot this post, the method wars are over.

>>22046279
>after all they are so mutually intelligible
Yeah that'd be the most important part. For Latin, I can see that the classical vs. ecclesiastical systems are, in the end, very much similar and intelligible (as are, say, British/American/Australian English accents).
I was worrying that the different pronunciation systems in Greek, between Attic, Koine, Erasmian, modern Greek etc. there is so much variation that the extreme ends sound like completely different languages. At least that's what the Greeks suggest when they spaz out under every single youtube video about Ancient Greek where the speaker does not pronounce every vowel as iota.

>>22046334
Ze’ll be filtered by Capitulum XVI albeit

>>22045586
Problem is those 20% of characters are also among the most common.

I finally started getting serious about Greek. I'd like to try memorizing a short poem, or excerpt of poetry, so I can practice pronunciation. Any suggestions for something short and simple? Bonus if there's a good recording available.

>>22047262
I mean the first thing that comes to mind is the beginning of the Iliad. of all the Greek poems to have different recordings where people go try-hard, the Iliad probably has the most. listening to them isn't my thing, so I'm not sure where all you could go, but I'm sure youtube has plenty. or just search "Iliad read in greek dactylic hexameter" or something and there'll probably be a handful of personal websites where people have uploaded themselves doing it

>Optative mood

>>22047368
It's a literary language. You want the tools in your arsenal to be as precise (or as vague) as possible.

Would being a slavtard help me in any way with ancient greek? Obviously the alphabet but beyond that?

>>22047437
Greek is in many ways less synthetic than many Slavic languages + you know english too, so yeah not a bad start I'd say
of course there's the lexicon but that's a challenge for anyone who doesn't speak Greek as a native

>>22045077
Stop watching bald man's videos.

Did I do well?
>>>/his/15065542

>>22047684
not really, just sounds like "yo speako spanisho" or something
to craft a proper Latin shitpost one must learn proper Latin

Latin question.
Regarding the imperfect subjunctive of sum, is there any nuance between the forms with ess- stems and the ones with for- stems? Is one form more poetic than the other, perhaps?
I remember from studying Old French that it has a similar thing going on with iere vs estoie forms in the imperfect indicative (one is from Medieval Latin essere, a regularised form of esse, and the other is from stare which became a copula in popular Latin).

>>22048157
>is there any nuance between the forms with ess- stems and the ones with for- stems? Is one form more poetic than the other, perhaps?
unless there's some classical writings about their nuance, we'll never know for certain exactly how Latin speakers perceived them. but because the imperfect subjunctives of 'fore' were mostly used in old Latin, I assume they would've had an older/archaic feel to them when used in classical Latin, as 'essem' and the like was used primarily. I'm not sure how drastic this sense would've been, though, as I imagine a main use of the 'fore' imperfect subjunctives would've been for metrical purposes. what the hell do I know though

>>22048157
apparently it had a future nuance, which makes sense if you consider 'fore' appears as a common replacement for "futurum esse"

>>22047368
despite having started later on with Greek compared to Latin, I'd say the latter's system of hypotheticals and non indicative moods feels less clunky despite one additional mood compared to latin's do-it-all subjunctive

>>22050601
>the latter
I meant the former