/lit/ - Literature

ok

>>21981611
Yeah these books are not well written. I honestly think they only got popular because studios were desperately looking for sci fi properties to turn into movies in the 80s and this one was relatively cheap to adapt. If it wasn't for that we probably never would have heard of it.

>>21981611
I read the first book, but could never understand why anyone would want to read the sequela.

>>21981847
the first one is fine. I wasn't mindblown by this Great Classic, some parts were painful, but overall it's decent. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone, though.
Saw part 2 (Dune Messiah) in my library and thought I'd give it a try – the book is almost 3 times smaller, should be an easy run, I thought. Fuck no it wasn't, could barely finish 1/4 of it. The most pointeless and retarded dialogue I've ever willingly read. It was so awful I had to check if whether it was secretly written by another author.
I imagine some hyper autist might enjoy this drivel (Messiah), but it completely killed my desire to pick up this series ever again.

>>21982621
>hyper-autist here
Yes I enjoyed it.
Paul's conflict is pretty good but the book has issues.

How can an author capable of writting good sci-fi cannot see his own drastic drops of quality in his works if we can? Did he even care?

>>21981847
Same. I couldn't even get twenty pages into the second one, which was kind of jarring considering that I absolutely inhaled the first book.

>>21981611
>I have a hard time following their train of thought
You have been filtered.

>>21981611
The first book is fantastic but I saw little reason to continue reading the series. I have a 104 IQ.

>>21981611
Messiah is a surprisingly atrocious step down from the first one but Children of Dune is good

>>21981611
filtered

>>21981611
>Most of the time characters speak in metaphors and utter some vague nonsense. Half of the time the answer one person gives to another isn't even related to what was being discussed in the first place, so I have a hard time following their train of thought, which seem to be jumping all over the place
I actually did feel this way a little bit in the second half of the first book. Some of the interactions between Paul and Jessica were quite vague, and their relationship seemed to undergo changes rapidly. I couldn't fully make sense of it.

>>21981611
You have to have a broad understanding of philosophy, religion and politics to follow Herbert. That book is amazing. Unfortunately for you, you are a retard. You will most likely think the next two books are great in comparison…

>>21983498
Rest of the series is amazing.

>>21984190
To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to understand the Dune sequels. The exposition is extremely subtle, and without a solid grasp of Jungian psychology most of the plot will go over a typical viewer's head. There's also Paul's nihilistic outlook, which is deftly woven into his characterisation - his personal philosophy draws heavily from Zen Buddhist literature, for instance. The fans understand this stuff; they have the intellectual capacity to truly appreciate the depths of these narratives, to realize that they're not just enthralling- they say something deep about LIFE. As a consequence people who dislike the Dune Sequels truly ARE idiots- of course they wouldn't appreciate, for instance, the wisdom in the Bene Gesserit "Litany of Fear" which itself is a cryptic reference to the Pavamana Mantra. I'm smirking right now just imagining one of those addlepated simpletons scratching their heads in confusion as Frank Herbert's genius unfolds itself on their e-reader screens. What fools... how I pity them. And yes by the way, I DO have a Sandworm tattoo. And no, you cannot see it. It's for the ladies' eyes only- And even they have to demonstrate that they're within 5 IQ points of my own (preferably lower) beforehand.

>>21981611
>>21981847
>>21982621
>>21983096
>>21983498
reading dune without reading dune messiah is like reading the old testament and saying "yeah but nah why would anyone read the new testament it's not like its the completion of the story and ties together all the themes previously presented". dumb retards. fucking spic brained pieces of shit. if i ever saw any of you in the street i'd stomp your stupid fucking heads in. i'd kill your whole faggot family.

>>21981611
you won't get it unless you also learn about jungian archetypes

>>21984145
I brushed it off as them being super-humans in terms of their intellectual capacity, but in the messiah every character speaks and this way.

>>21981611
there used to be a scfi and fantasy general here on /lit/ . I cant seem to find it anymore.

>>21984255
I love this pasta but a lot of what it says is actually true. People like Children of Dune and God Emperor because it is far more plot heavy than the rest of the books.

>>21984328
calm down retard. It's not about the "completion of the story", each book can be judged separately. If getting to the compeletion requires me to suffer through unreadable shlock then I'd rather not. I'm not dropping enough bad books as it is, no reason to waste time on another one.
>>21984940
it's down for the moment, but keep in mind that all posters there amount to approximately 4.03 people. The 0.03 is the one who posts Reverend Insanity

>>21984197
someday I'll muster enough courage to attempt reading Messiah again

>>21984328
All of the themes and major conflicts of the book are resolved in a way that defeats the need for a sequel. Paul discovers his destiny ---> Paul tries to influence to avoid the Jihad ---> Paul realizes that all paths lead to the Jihad, and even his struggle against it lead to it happening. It works great as a self-contained story. Learning about what happens to the Emperor, or Irulan and Paul, doesn't really matter because we know the Jihad will happen.

>>21986174
Good chart. I may read Hunters and Sandworms of dune to at least get the base points of the story that Herbert had in mind when n his outline.

>>21986220
Messiah is required. No it isn’t self contained. You NEED messiah to understand Paula entire story. The end of Dune 1 is just the beginning.. you miss the most relevant part of his character by skipping Messiah

>>21981611
I agree that Frank Herbert was not the best writer. However, his story has stumbled upon some interesting ideas, and I think Herbert used them as a means to test his understanding of those ideas and also to share them with others. I would recommend you read 'The Sexual Cycle of Human Warfare'. It is out of print, but you can find a scan online. Also, the ideas of Giorgio Agamben in 'Homo Sacer' might also be interesting, even though it is not directly connected to Dune. For my own understanding, it seems that Dune is an examination of the organism that Thomas Hobbes referred to as 'Leviathan', with a focus on more than just the politics, but an actual consideration of it as a creature that evolves.

>>21986220
This is how I felt. I liked the feeling of the impending doom at the end of the book. It didn't seem necessary to read about the doom. That's not to say there's no reason to have written or to read any sequels, but the first book does feel self-contained.

>>21984328
>>21986760
I don't really care about Paul. I've fallen in love with Dune's worldbuilding and was dissapointed with Paul winning in the end, destroying both houses Harkonen and Corrino and their legacy, eliminating their masterfully crafted plans with his deus ex machina brute-force army of sandfuckers.
I know that Paul and his children will eventually destroy the Empire and its beautiful and complex political structure. Why would I want to read about it then? I wanna watch Baron Vladimir trying to outsmart the Padishah Emperor himself, using all the flaws and advantages of the system, the first book was too short!

>>21981611
>This book has atrocious dialogues and is such a borefest.
Yes. But it's worth the slog to get to God Emperor.

>>21981611
I read it recently and in the preface his son says Mesiah is Frank's most misunderstood book. In other words they tell you the book sucks before you even begin, which I found hilarious.
>pic related, here's your chiani bro

>>21985784
Doesn't make it any less funny

Also, don't forget that this is the same universe where picrel is canon

Heretics and Chapterhouse are probably up there in the realm of Horny Old Man Scifi along with the best works of Asimov, Heinlein, and Clarke

>>21989473
I think I see how Messiah is "bad". It's obviously meant to be read with Children of Dune. The two books need each other to form a cohesive whole.

>>21984328
The original Dune had clear beginning middle and end. The story was over, Paul won, he took control of Dune and married into the emperor’s family with the clear implication that his descendants would become emperor. All the Harkonenns died, he’d already achieved self-actualization and fulfilled the ancient prophecy, the story was over, every thread it set up had been completed. I read the first book years ago and never had nor will read any of the sequels.>>21986760
>>21989276
>>21990225

>>21983096
are you me? I blew through the first one in a week, bought the second immediately and haven't read past the first chapter in months. It's such a dramatic drop in quality, it's insane.

I am envisioning OP as a soijak. He is bald, has scraggly facial hair, and a gaping mouth.

>>21981611
you don't understand it then. the dialogues are chess games between archetypes and they speak in archetypical metaphors. so if you don't know enough jugian psychology then the dialogues will seem like nonsense and unnecessarily obtuse

>>21981611
I enjoyed Messiah much more than the first frankly, even though it was just a logical conclusion to it (arguably an epilogue).

>>21991355
You’re an idiot. Messiah is amazing. The phrase “drop in quality” is so arbitrary and retarded.

>>21990214
Haha yeah true. It’s sort of horny but not really. One or two scenes are that way but it’s extremely based in conveying the magnitude in which individuals should approach procreation.

>>21989268
The sequels I’ve all of that political intrigue more as you go in. Messiah is better than Dune1 in that regard.

>>21983565
children of dune is the ultimate step down

>>21981611
Most sci-fi sucks. Itcs only the not sucky bits that get hailed as great because everyone has such low standards. People say reading Messiah is like an epilogue to Dune 1 but yoy don't need it to enjoy that closed narratuve. What you do need it for is taking the bait and not even investing in Children of Dune but God Emperor. You have to read 2 more books, a crap and a not great just to read something worthwhile again. This is the greatest proof of the debasity of the sci-fi genre. But there's not much elae to read unless you enjoy golden age soviet sci-fi.

>>21986174
Weak chart