/lit/ - Literature

>>21975986
>2/2

>390 ad
My example here will probably be the most obscure but I think it greatly illustrates my point. The Massacre of Thessalonica. By this point the Roman Army was dominated by Germanic barbarians, while the Romans citizens were obsessed with their version of sportsball chariot racing. In the city of Thessalonica right before a race the best chariot racer, the Michael Jordan of chariot racing, was imprisoned by the German soldiers the Emperor had left in charge of the city. He was imprisoned for homosexual rape. The Germans were disgusted by this while the Roman citizens didn't think it was an issue at all and were massively ticked off that his foreign prudish people imprisoned their chariot racer over something like that, so they had a massive chimp out and killed a fair amount of the German soldiers including their leader who was a longtime loyal comrade of the Emperor. The Emperor was so enraged by this that at the next chariot race in Thessalonica he had the doors locked when everyone had filled up the hippodrome and had his German soldiers kill everyone inside, man, woman, and children all. In 20 years Rome would be sacked by the Germans for the first time in 800 years and in 60 years the western roman empire would be conquered entirely by those Germans that like the Greeks 1500 years prior had no acceptance of homosexuality. Those Germans that conquered Rome were at the beginning of a civilization that we are at 1500 years the other side of.

>it got gayer after the band of Thebes
Sorry you were brain damaged, OP, that must suck

>>21976002
There's literally no mention of them being lovers until Plutarch 400 years after they would've existed.

>>21975986
acceptance of homosexuality is a good thing. If you just culturally repress it, then it will persevere genetically. We must accelerate natural selection and strengthen the species, even if it appears that we are becoming weaker. For this reason all degeneracy should be allowed, including porn, drugs, promiscuity, etc. Everything is going as it should.

>>21975986
It could very well be. I remember reading about Plato (who I actively disliked reading the philosophies of) and found it unsurprising he said Ach and Pat were lovers. Once a theoretical line of broken reasoning such as his realm of forms becomes accepted as a legitimate and likely possibility in the universe shite will endlessly fall from a man's mouth, and imo it does with plato.

But I'm more compelled to believe it's when a culture is overly sexualised in general that it's falling. Gays are often hypersexual due to the lack of women to cockblock and so when they themselves get overtly accepted into the mainstream's folds I have a feeling it's just a symptom that the society has grown into accepting hypersexuality, which in turn destroys monogamy and family units, which leads to stagnation or even chaos. I'm Bi myself and pound twinks but feel this should not really be brought up in cultural discussion as Normalising the serious outliers such as myself has the effect of disenfranchising any sort of cohesion and fraternity the hetero backbone of the western world has as it's normalising hedonism and childlessness.

But there have been other civilizations besides Greece and Rome. Still, you’re probably right and you could say the same thing about involvement of women in court politics. We’re the first to hand over political office entirely. European Parliament is almost half female.

>oh no! Dudes are sucking each other off, it’s le collapse of fuckin society!

>>21976108
I'm just using it as one example. You could also draw the same conclusions looking at Islamic civilization. I'm not really educated on the sexual practices of Hindu or Chinese civilization so I can't comment on those.

>>21976088
I'm not really saying that homosexuality in itself causes civilizational decline, just that its a pretty good measure of it like a thermometer reading of it lol. I agree homosexuality is more a symptom of a larger issue.

>>21976124
The Han dynasty saw a restoration of conservative values with Confucianism among the elite afaik and effectively set in stone the most conservative civilization that ever existed. I do think women really played a big role in court politics starting in the late warring states period. I’m not sure about homosexuality. We don’t really know enough about Hindu civilization.

What are you referring to in Islamic civilization?

>>21976140
It's just the natural progress of civilzation. Every civilization goes through its period of rise and decline (which is always accompanied by decadence and degeneracy).

The only difference between historic periods and ours is that everythign goes faster now. So unlike, say Rome, wer'e nto going to get a few hundred years of decline. Our decline will come fast and hard, so enjoy it while it lasts.

I'm also going to pound every twink I can find.

>>21976109
Someone's grumpy today. Tough time at school, bud?

>>21975986
Quality post OP give more

>>21976109
name a gay leader who left his country better than he found it.

>>21976246
Alexander The Great gave the Greeks an empire.

I've come to the belief the mark of a declining intelligence is directly corelated with its acceptance of homophobia.

As an example I will track it over the course of OP’s post using specific examples from key time frames.

>first sentence
Crafted at the very formation of midwit identity

>>21976282
reddit moment

>>21976282
Strange because the human race could literally not exist without heterosexuality. Homosexuality is a decadent excess. A struggling society has no time for it.... well you know I was about to write a long thing about how you are wrong but I suddenly realized by the grace of God that I am trying to argue with a person who thinks it is okay to put one's penis in an anus. Not as an exotic freaky moment between husband and wife, but a constant way for two people to connect. It is crazy to think this is accepted in anyway.

>>21976257
No evidence at all Alexander was gay, stop projecting your faggotry on historical figures.

>>21975994
>>21975986
Without identifying a mechanism of action, this is just you committing a disproprtionate amount of time thinking about fags instead of becoming an engineer or something. Retard.

>>21976383
NTA, but that means you spent precious moments that could have been used to advance yourself in a meaningful field reading and then commenting on someone who wasting precious moments thinking about a trivial topic like homosexuality when he could have been advancing himself in a meaningful field, which really makes your comment twice as trivial as his, and therefore makes you twice the retard. (Don't feel bad - I just commented on your comment about his comment, which makes me triple the retard. It's all down retard hill from here.)

>>21976383
>Just aquire a specific industrial skill
>money is the root of happiness
>Just let things happen around you like a blind man walking in a market
>Don't think
You are full of bad advice. I pray that you are never in a position to instruct anyone about anything ever

>>21976369
> However, what was the case in Athens was not necessarily the case in Macedon. As Robin Lane Fox says, "descendants of the Dorians were considered and even expected to be openly homosexual, especially among their ruling class, and the Macedonian kings had long insisted on their pure Dorian ancestry".[65] This was no fashionable affectation; this was something that belonged at the heart of what it was to be Dorian, and therefore Macedonian, and had more in common with the Theban Sacred Band than with Athens.[66] Lucian, writing in his book On Slips of the Tongue, describes an occasion when Hephaestion's conversation one morning implied that he had been in Alexander's tent all night,[67] and Plutarch describes the intimacy between them when he tells how Hephaestion was in the habit of reading Alexander's letters with him, and of a time when he showed that the contents of a letter were to be kept secret by touching his ring to Hephaestion's lips.[68] There also exists a letter, spuriously attributed to Diogenes of Sinope, heavily hinting at Alexander's yielding to "Hephaestion's thighs".[69]

> No other circumstance shows better the nature and length of their relationship than Alexander's overwhelming grief at Hephaestion's death. As Andrew Chugg says, "it is surely incredible that Alexander's reaction to Hephaestion's death could indicate anything other than the closest relationship imaginable".[70] The many and varied ways, both spontaneous and planned, by which Alexander poured out his grief are detailed below. In the context of the nature of their relationship however, one stands out as remarkable. Arrian says that Alexander "flung himself on the body of his friend and lay there nearly all day long in tears, and refused to be parted from him until he was dragged away by force by his Companions"

>>21976033
no anon you don't get it, you must protect the ability to reproduce of people who are opting to not reproduce. we must make all LGBT ppl create a new generation!
genuinely why do people care if others aren't reproducing, if you dislike them and think they are harming themselves and will end up as genetic dead ends... just let them do it? that way everyone gets what they want

>>21975986
>400s bc
>Although still unaccepted in large part you can see the beginnings of its acceptance
You're mistaken, Plato and Aristotle are criticizing the homosexual tradition which had its appearance during the Archaic period, visible in the poems of Theognis and Anacreon and the laws of Solon, and which remained very vigorous in the classical period, with the poems of Pindar, and the plays of Aeschylus and Sophocles publicly representing male loves, and homosexual amours attributed to the king of gods
In fact I don't see any correlation between the social acceptance of homosexual behaviour and the decline of civilization, Augustan Rome, Han China, Classical Greece all show a high degree of civilization and a normalization of homosexual activity
>>21976124
>>21976225
>Scholar Pan Guangdan (潘光旦) came to the conclusion that many emperors in the Han dynasty had one or more male sex partners. Many were recorded in detailed biographies in the Memoirs of the Historian by Sima Qian and the Records of the Han by Ban Gu.[4] Grand Historian Sima Qian notes that, unlike female wives and concubines, the male companions of the emperors were often admired as much for their administrative abilities as for their sexual abilities:
> Those who served the ruler and succeeded in delighting his ears and eyes, those who caught their lord's fancy and won his favor and intimacy, did so not only through the power of lust and love; each had certain abilities in which he excelled. Thus I made The Biographies of the Emperors' Male Favorites. The proverb says, "No amount of toiling in the fields can compare to a spell of good weather; no amount of faithful service can compare to being liked by your superiors." This is no idle saying. Yet it is not women alone who can use their looks to attract the eyes of the ruler; courtiers and eunuchs can play at that game as well. Many were the men of ancient times who gained favor this way.[5]

>>21976541
>that many emperors in

You are talking about emperors here, who are above common morality. The question is what are the norms in the broad society?

>>21976574
The Chinese ideology of empire didn't really place the emperors above morality, nor do we have information about the attitudes of the common people on much of anything before later periods

>>21976541
Augustan Rome, Classical Greece, and Han China were all without question the beginning of the terminal stages for each of those civilizations.

>>21976033
Hate to break it to you but faggots fuck women. If your girlfriend has a "gay friend" rest assured, she's fucking him.

>>21976541
>You're mistaken, Plato and Aristotle are criticizing the homosexual tradition which had its appearance during the Archaic period, visible in the poems of Theognis and Anacreon and the laws of Solon, and which remained very vigorous in the classical period, with the poems of Pindar, and the plays of Aeschylus and Sophocles publicly representing male loves, and homosexual amours attributed to the king of gods
Again this is your gay fanfic with no basis in reality. Mistranslated works of random intellectuals =/= gay butt sex.

>>21976634
>Boy-love is a delight, since even the son of Cronus, King of the gods, once came to love Ganymede, And seizing him, brought him up to Olympus and made him Eternal in the lovely flower of boyhood
Theognis 1341-50
>Happy he that loveth as he taketh his practice and when he goeth home sleepeth the day out with a fair lad.
Theognis 1335-1336
>While one loves boys among the lovely flowers of youth, Desiring their thighs and sweet mouths.
Solon, fragments
>The fountain of that stream which Zeus, when he was in love with Ganymede, called “desire” flows copiously upon the lover
Plato, Phaedrus 255c
>Sophocles in Women of Colchis said of Ganymede that he lit the fire of tyrant Zeus with his thighs.
Athenaeus 13.601
>[The Persians'] luxurious practices are of all kinds, and all borrowed: the Greeks taught them pederasty.
Herodotus 1.135
>In most of the Greek cities the laws do not oppose men’s desire for boys.
Xenophon, Constitution of the Lacedaemonians 2.14

>>21976623
I think that case can be made for Augustan Rome but hardly Classical Greece or Han China, for whom the homosexual tradition was older anyway

>>21976644
Han China is roughly analogous to Augustan Rome. In fact, they’re similar in remarkable ways. Chinese civilization would undoubtedly decline upon the death of Emperor Gaozu in the same way Rome declined after the death of Augustus. Classical Greece probably shouldn’t even be regarded as its own civilization proper but correspondent to the same as that of Rome. Either way, Classical Greece is the high point for the Greeks. It declined after the death of Alexander which also ushers in the Hellenistic age.

reminder that finding another man or boy attractive, beautiful, to caress and intercrural sex is not gay at all

>>21975986
>>21975994
>/lit/ - Literature

>>21976692
I don't agree at all on the decline of Chinese culture after the Han dynasty, the greatest Chinese accomplishments in literature, philosophy, science, and art all came after the Han

>>21976695
Reminder that you're clinically insane.

>>21976638
Again these are random mistranslations with no substantial support that homsexuality was in large part accepted by Hellenic society. You should stop projecting your faggot fantasies on history

watch https://youtu.be/BNAT4ybsz_E

>>21976721
Again, feel free to explain why these are mistranslated, and what particular argument from this random guy you want refuted
Check out pic related

>>21976124
>Chinese civilization
The original Han empire fell to Wang Mang because the last emperor was a faggot who tried to pass his throne to his lover. Thus very few people complained when Wang Mang overthrew the Han until he started fucking up

>>21976720
ok ok having intercrural sex may not be a thing of a pater but what the fuck is the problem in finding other men beautiful?

>>21976779
What is wrong in having intercrural sex

>>21976781
It's only all right if you do not ejaculate. If you don't ejaculate it's not sex, so it's fine.

>>21976736
Again watch vid faggot. None of you shit makes a coherent argument, just pure sophistry.

>>21975986
"a" mark

>>21976721
That video you posted is beyond retarded.

>>21979716
Again no response to any of his points lmao. You're such a faggot.

>>21977830
That video is the biggest fucking cope ever lmao.

>>21976721

Why do Christian Conservatives feel the need to defend paganism and pagan customs as if Christianity wasn't a rebuke against the pagan world? What does he care if ancient Greece was super gay? Clearly this video is just massive cope but I don't understand why he would even give a shit enough to make this video

>>21975986
Being anti homosex is a predominantly German (pre 0 as origin) and Jewish thing (also ancient origin)

They've been going on about it forever, the Germans think it's effeminate and dishonourable and the Jews say it's impure and sinful

Maybe they're right but it's very boring at this point

>>21975986
it's fitting that Romans 1, mentions homosexuality as the beginning of a civilization given over to their desires

>>21979947
I’m not a Christian conservative tho

>>21976246
Frederick the Great

>>21976624
women should not be able to choose whom they fuck. its dysgenic. women overall make bad decisions in mate selection anyways.

>>21979947
like it or not, Christianity is basically Hellenized Judaism in some sense.

>>21979947
they want to claim "Western culture" as one unified movement from the Greeks to Christianity to now. and having homosexuals be the start of Western culture and thought does not sit well with them, they want the values that they have now to have been the values all great Western civilizations had through time basically they are greekaboos but can't cope with the homosex

>>21975986
How about democracy and women OP?

>>21975986
>>21975994
You are stupid anon. Homosexuality was already widely accepted during the Archaic era that preceded Classical Greece. Theognis, Anacreon, Ibycus etc. all wrote love poetry to boys. The city founders and lawgivers of Athens, Thebes, Crete, etc. approved of it and enshrined it in their laws. Aeschylus and Sophocles (both Greek traditionalists from an earlier era) depicted homosexuality uncritically and approvingly. Plato is unusual in ancient Greek society precisely in that he is one of the first to turn *against* pederasty. That is what makes him less traditional. All the other characters in the Symposium *approve* of sexual intercourse in homosexual relationships, except Socrates. If anything, an increase in the disapproval of homosexuality was associated with the decline of Greek society.

>>21976015
>There's literally no mention of them being lovers until Plutarch 400 years after they would've existed.
You have not read that much. Xenophon refers to them as such in his Symposium.

>>21976721
>>21977830
>>21980260
Anon, the video claims that "eros" doesn't mean sexual love because Homer refers to famished men having "eros" for food. This is like saying "lust" (when used to describe one person's feeling for another) doesn't mean sexual feeling because we sometimes say "bloodlust" or "lust for power".

Let us see how the ancient Greeks themselves defined eros:
>The irrational desire which has gained control over judgement ... borne towards pleasure in beauty, and which is forcefully reinforced by the desires related to it in its pursuit of bodily beauty, overcoming them in its course ... this is called eros.
Plato, Phaedrus 238c
>Erotic passion [ἔρος] is a desire that does not arise in virtuous men, for it is an impulse to form a relationship on account of physical attractiveness.
Diogenes Laertius, Life of Zeno 113

The role of eros in heterosexual love:
>And when he beheld her, then love [ἔρως] encompassed his wise heart about, even as when at the first they had gone to the couch and had dalliance together in love, their dear parents knowing naught thereof.
Homer, Iliad 14.294
>And thereupon their knees were loosened, and their hearts were enchanted with love [ἔρως], and they all prayed to lie in bed with her.
Homer, Odyssey 18.212-13
>And Eros upstrained his bow, shot forth a single shaft into both cities together, kindling a youth and maiden
Musaeus, Hero and Leander 20 ff
>Golden-haired Eros hits me with a purple ball and challenges me to play with the girl
Anacreon 13
>Eros drove Dionysos mad for the girl [Aura] with the delicious wound of his arrow, then curving his wings flew lightly to Olympos. And the god roamed over the hills scourged with a greater fire. For there was not the smallest comfort for him. He had then no hope of the girl's love, no physic for his passion; but Eros burnt him more and more with the mindbewitching fire to win mad obstinate Aura at last.
Nonnus, Dionysiaca 48. 470 ff
>Once, when Venus' son was kissing her, his quiver dangling down, a jutting arrow, unbeknown, had grazed her breast. She pushed the boy away. In face the wound was deeper than it seemed, though unperceived at first. [And she became] enraptured by the beauty of a man.
Ovid, Metamorphoses 10. 525 ff

In Lucian's Dialogues of the Gods, Zeus wants to punish Eros for having made him have so many reckless sexual affairs with mortals.

[cont]

>>21980805
[cont]

The Greeks often make equivalencies and comparisons between eros for boys and eros for women:
>Decide whether you consider those superior who love boys or those who delight in womankind. For I who have been smitten by both passions hang like an accurate balance with both scales in equipoise.
Lucian, Amores 4
>Excitement about boys and women is one and the same thing: Love.
Plutarch, Dialogue on Love 5
>Young men are more open and frank than women, and their handsome bodies offer a sharper stimulus to pleasure.
Achilles Tatius, Leucippe and Clitophon 2.35
>I hate sex that doesn’t gratify both partners, and that is why I’m less enthralled with boys.
Ovid, The Art of Love 2.683– 84
>And many men, overall, prefer love with boys to love with females. In the very cities of Greece that have the best laws by comparison with others, this is the mode of behavior that fashionable.
Athenaeus, Deipnosophistae 13.601
>Orpheus had fled the love of women, either because it had not gone well for him, or perhaps he’d taken a vow... Orpheus first taught the Thracians to love instead tender boys
Ovid, Metamorphoses 10
>He who has countless gold and silver ... is no more rich than the man who has just what he needs ... delight from a boy or woman.
Solon, recorded in Theognis 719-28
>Heracles: A craving? How big? Dionysus: Small, like Molon. Heracles: For a woman? Dionysus: Oh no. Heracles: A boy? Dionysus: Not at all!
Aristophanes, Frogs
>There's gratitude in boys. A woman loves her current man; no loyalty's in her.
Theognis 1367-8
>Now all who are the men's slice from the common genus, which was then called androgynous, are lovers of women; and many adulterers have been of this genus; But all who are male slices pursue the males; and while they are boys—because they are cutlets of the male —they are friendly to men and enjoy lying down together with and embracing men, and these are the best of boys and lads, because they are naturally the manliest... When they are fully grown men, they are pederasts and naturally pay no attention to marriage and procreation
Plato, Symposium 128-9 (Aristophanes' speech)

Also in biographies whenever they discuss a subject's love life, they typically discuss their affairs with both men and women in the same breath (for instance Diogenes Laertius' biography of Plato).

[cont]

>>21980809
We have explicit references to specific sexual practices in Greek writing too:
>And you did not respect the chaste consecration of the thighs, oh ungrateful that you were for those countless kisses!
Aeschylus, Myrmidons, Fragment 135
>I honored the intimacy [homīlíā] of your thighs [mērós] by bewailing you
Aeschylus, Myrmidons, Fragment 136
>No, pleasure was the mediator even of their friendship. At any rate, when Achilles was lamenting the death of Patroclus, his unrestrained feelings made him burst out with the truth and say "The converse of our thighs my tears do mourn with duteous piety."
Lucian, Amores 54
>If someone who pokes at one's belly 'bellies', then someone who pokes at one's thigh [mērizei] 'thighs' [mērizein].
Diogenes Laertius, Life of Cleanthes
>Heavens above! the wide-assed are the vast majority.
Aristophanes, The Clouds
>Penetrate the thighs of a beloved child no more and no less than those of a non-beloved child, and neither those of a female any more or any less than those of a male, and neither those of a female any more or any less than those of a male.
Sextus Empiricus, Outlines of Pyrrhonism 3.245-46 (quoting Zeno of Citium)
>Indemnities for theft by woman, man, or boy: Her, pussy; him, head; the last, his ass
Priapea 22
>If a beautiful boy doesn’t give his ass to be fucked, may he not get a fuck when he falls in love with a beautiful girl.
Greek graffito from Stabiae
>I love a female love. Let the snuggling of hairy-assed queens be the concern of goat-mounting shepherds.
Meleager, AP 12.41
>Heraclitus was beautiful, when he once was. But now, past his youth, a screen of hide declares war on those who would mount from behind.
Meleager, AP 12.33
>Every dumb animal only screws. But we reasoning men have this over other animals, we have discovered butt-fucking. But those who conquer women, they have nothing over dumb animals.
Strato, AP 12.245

>>21975986
you're gay bud, no shame in it