/lit/ - Literature

>>21936398
>Crime and Punishment
>not YA
Pick one.

>>21936398
zoomers in high school are reading Farenheight 451 and getting filtered, they'd have no hope with Dosto.

>>21936398
It's a little true. Most high-schoolers, partly because they are still in compulsory education, are not worldly or empathetic enough to "get" good literature. It's wasted on them. Worse, it hardens them against it.
While they should certainly be made aware of and given access to the best titles, it actually might be valuable to curate stuff that's accessible and useful, or forego compulsory reading entirely. It's not that valuable when in practice 90% of the class reads a summary and parrots back the teacher's interpretation to avoid engaging with the text at all.

>>21936614
Counterpoint/Devil's Advocate: those kids are hopeless anyway and teachers shouldn't waste time or brain space on them, just cultivate the top 10% of the class for whom there's hope that they might develop some excellence.

>>21936648
That's not really a useful thing for public education to be doing, and choosing a superclass based solely on their ability to relate to literature deeply unlike their personal experiences seems wildly misaligned too. Plus, you really want high school teachers to be the kingmakers when it comes to picking which students will amount to something and which won't?
I mean I get where you're coming from, but one has to be pragmatic about these things.

>>21936648
Do schools not stick the smart/dedicated kids in the more advanced English classes anymore?

>>21936614
That is fucking retarded, anon. Teenagers do not have to be worldly to understand a book. If that was true, even adults wouldn’t be unable to understand half of what’s written. And teens can be/are exceedingly empathetic as their emotions and feelings are heightened at that age. Our language arts education simply failed them long before they reached high school, and our society has fucked them by giving them thoughtless entertainment that has explosions and feminine melodrama every five seconds. They don’t like using their brains more than they have to. That’s all. It’s a rare adult that wants to use their brains more that they have to.

>>21936683
the parents of the dumb kids don't want them in the dumb class, so they get dumbed down to the point of being barely above the standard classes

I mean yeah?
Go talk to Russians, they hate Dostoyevsky

>>21936829
the translations are always easier than the original
students in germany literally read Kant in english translation because the german is too *abtuse (obscure reference, you get a cookie if you know it)

>Woman: [entirely gratuitous emotional report] [entirely gratuitous emotional report] [arbitrary preference statement] [entirely gratuitous emotional report] [appeal to consensus and "normalcy" (what people do on average / "don't rock the boat by being different unless you can get away with it and compel the consensus to change in which case I will follow what you do tomorrow but until then I will attempt to destroy you for rocking the boat unsuccessfully")] [entirely gratuitous emotional report] [inane superfluous information about basic life issues that aren't relevant to anyone except one's own diary or one's mother] [command, thinly and passive-aggressively veiled as suggestion, that you stop doing what you're doing] [entirely gratuitous emotional report] [inane superfluous information about daily life rituals nobody needs to hear] [desire report: food] [desire report: food] [desire report: food] [inane statement of basic fact about current social/physical setting everyone can already observe on their own, just taking up airspace for no reason] [entirely gratuitous emotional report] [desire report: food] [desire report: convenient transportation to food] [desire report: greater comfort until transportation arives] [desire report: food]

>>21936398
Forcing books on high schoolers and then making them do homework, essays and write tests on them is a good way to make them hate a book and even reading.

>>21936683
Depends on school, but they usually do. Of course more recently in education there has been a push towards abolishing all advanced classes, because equal opportunity is literally fascism since it leads to a hierarchy based on intelligence.

>>21936847
Well, that's not exactly recent. Streaming has been a semicontroversy in education for many decades, and stuff like honors and AP classes are just offshoots of that. The problem of teaching "down" to less obviously competent students has always run up against the problem of not challenging the fast learners and having them tune out.

>>21936811
No man. I'm not saying that teens literally can't get anything out of a book, but their intuitions for what they'd do or feel in someone else's situation are unformed because they've been in almost no situations and lack the perspective to fairly judge much of what they have been through. Also, as far as empathy goes, their heightened feelings are bane to genuinely understanding others. Their developmental stage makes them (generally) tunnel-visioned psychos with significant chemical obstacles between them and taking foreign perspectives. I'm not saying there's NO value, the right book could mean a lot to the right teen, but feeding them classics they literally lack the experience and maturity to understand isn't necessarily a good use of time, and may even be counterproductive.

>>21936683
I was in advanced classes, but most people just used sparknotes instead of reading the assigned books.

>>21936844
If you're a weak pathetic excuse of a kid. Was forced to read Les Mis in high school, fucking loved it, began to read other books like it.

Kids are just weak these days.

>>21937427
>Was forced to read Les Mis in high school, fucking loved it
Holy shit, you sound fucking strong. Reading books is really not for the faint of heart, it's harrowing and really difficult! It's not that kids hate assigned reading because it's really time-consuming and unrewarding if you don't connect with it, it's that they're just simply not strong enough to keep on reading. God, what a smart, strong man you must be that Les Miserables eventually became interesting to you and you wanted to finish it.

>>21937458
>it's really time-consuming and unrewarding if you don't connect with it
Just look up a summary online. It's not that hard.

>>21937458
Thank you king

Why do retards (including some in this thread) think schools need to assign books that kids will enjoy? No one says that we need to stop teaching algebra and replace it with Tetris because the latter is more enjoyable. School is meant to be about education, not fun.

>>21937555
Because different from math there's no real world use for those books, the objective of book assign and literature classes is to teach value of reading, text comprehension and expanding their vocabulary.
Boring books that are only relevant because of pseudos circle jerks arround 'muh classics' are a bad tool for those goals and a bad introduction to literature as a whole, even counterproductive as other anons already pointed.

>>21937636
I support the motion. Burgers should remain at a 6th grade reading level like literally tho and be made to shit their pants at a sentence with more than 6 words.

>>21937636
>the objective of book assign and literature classes is to teach value of reading, text comprehension and expanding their vocabulary.
no, it is much more than that. the point of literature classes is also to instill literary analysis (much of which can be expanded to media analysis i.e. understanding how messages can be shaped in artistic communication), to understand the cultural landscape made from important literary works (which is why nowadays there is so much emphasis on making underrepresented works more visible), and in general, to train both writing and reading skills (if you read just shitty YA you just never learn what good writing looks like; similarly, low effort reading just leads to poor reading skills).

i am not the most "only classics guy" but the whole "we need to read FUN stuff" is just incredibly stupid. you see people going around whose concept of media analysis is shitty video essays about cartoon shows where the whole "analysis" is basically nitpicking at easter eggs to showcase some "secret meaning". those people are literally lobotomized; they would benefit from a rigorous literature education

>>21937646
> understanding how messages can be shaped in artistic communication
and boring, unengaging books are a horrible tool for that

>to understand the cultural landscape made from important literary works
worthless

>good writing looks like
According with whom ? it's nothing more than the opinion of academic pseudos and their circle jerks, there's nothing objective about it

>(if you read just shitty YA you just never learn what good writing looks like; similarly, low effort reading just leads to poor reading skills).
Who said anything about "reading just YA" ?

>hows where the whole "analysis" is basically nitpicking at easter eggs to showcase some "secret meaning"
That is all that literary analysis is at the end of the day. The only difference is that is being done to pop culture pieces so you can see it by what it is

>>21937646
First of all the vast majority of “classic” YA is every bit as good as “regular classic”. Harry Potter for example is chock full of complex sentences, vivid imagery, foreshadowing and wordplay, not to mention the references to classical mythology and folklore and the use of Latin.

Second of all, most of those “classics” were popular writing when they were written, Dickens had just as many fans proportionally as JKR or GRRM. Similarly Mozart was considered pop music during his lifetime. So who are we to say what is or is not objectively “classical”.

Thirdly (and lastly) the real goal of reading classes in school is to inculcate the pupil into their target culture. Most of these “classic” books are increasingly irreverent to this day and age. Almost no kids these days have any interest in studying the culture of 19c white people. They may as well be texts from ancient Egypt

>>21936811
>If that was true, even adults wouldn’t be unable to understand half of what’s written
They don't lmao

>>21936398
Honestly, if my middle school/high school had assigned more legacy authors and less coming-of-age shit I had no interest in reading (plus magical realism, which I was having a contrarian streak/kneejerk reaction against) I might've enjoyed it much more. I do admit I maybe should have given mice and men a chance but I have better uses for my time than that (not really).
Never read persona normal never will though. Benito taibo can go to hell. Catcher in the rye is also gay.

>>21936400
Yeah, it really does read like one.

>>21937838
Arguably that and the fact my parents never really did anything effective to curve my crippling computer addiction essentially killed reading in me as a teen.

>uhm, I think using books like The Hunger Games are too boring for high schoolers to read. I hated reading as a teenager because we read those. Imagine if they made us read Call Of The Crocodile, I would have LOVED reading!

>>21937849
God if only I didn't catch the tail end of the nineties/early two thousand.

>Pope grew up reading homer and vergil
>I grew up reading captain underpants and goosebumps
It's over

>>21936400
grow up faggot

>>21937958
>Pope
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FveF-we6lcE

>>21937838
Of Mice and Men and Catcher in the Rye were very readable as a teenager. Not sure what legacy books you would have enjoyed if they didn't do it.
The ones I hated were the new books that were chosen because they were written by 'marginalised people', and I'm not even racist or sexist. Much preferred reading books with literary merit than shit like the Rugmaker of Mazar-e-Sharif.

>>21936400
Shut up its good, perfectly dense enough to keep you entertained but I am only like 150 pages in maybe it gets worse but I'm even more pumped to read it after what I've already read

>>21936844
Schools are sort of to blame cause fuck they pick the gayest books, probably some bullshit about the kikacaust or Romeo and Juliet, pathetic. My history teacher explaining the divine comedy got me curious enough to start reading seriously, if a teacher can't interest the kids they're retarded, but also if the kids can't use enough brainpower to enjoy a BOOK, with WORDS they're just dead end queers that actual decent teachers look at like cancer kek

>>21937958
I remember those captain underpants books being kino

>>21936530
>these are my contemporaries
>tfw i realise most of my lit conversations have been with those decades older than me
>mfw one day they will all die out and I will be alone with only those who've 'read' works through video essays playing in the background of otyer actovities.

>>21936398
Immaculate truth. "Classics" alienate readers at a young age. Reading ought to be fun in the beginning, not academic or thought-provoking, there is no need to "get it", no need to study it even. Once the habit is ingrained people will gravitate toward reading something else and eventually, they will read your pretentious "classics" in the end, and realize that they aren't that different to the contemporary literature slop.

>>21938089
Why tell blatant lies?
It’s like saying that marvel movies will make people watch arthouse cinema: it won’t

>they aren't that different to the contemporary literature slop.
The point of a classic is not that it’s old, it’s that it has been filtered by time. Surely centuries from now some modern writing will have attained the rank of classic, but what you call “contemporary literature slop” will not, making it inferior to classics, both of today and of tomorrow.

>>21938110
Cope. In 2123 people will still be watching Marvel movies, but they wont be reading books at all

>>21937717
based retard

>>21936530
>20 pages in
>he spent more time on the reddit post than the fucking book

>>21936398
>be me
>Forced by older brother to read
>By the time I was 15 I had read many classics, and books in our own language too
>Crush everyone in English class
>Still remember to this day how amazing it felt to watch retards scramble about while I already knew and understood half the Curriculum

If you have any younglings, force them to read, whip them, I don't care. It changes your view point on the world. kdh4g

>>21937670
you got filtered. they are "boring and unengaging" because you probably aren't smart enough to understand them.
if you are still stuck on "you can't call something bad because everything is subjective" you are either still in highschool or your reading comprehension level is

>>21937717
this is bait.

i've tried reading it and dropped around 30th page, how is a story about a fucking drunkard any good i don't get it. i expected some woke philosophy shit about give and return, maybe even good since everybody praises the book but no it's just drunkards being happy that somebody wrote a story about their alcoholic life

>>21936614
Opposite is true. I started reading serious literature because I connected with Quentin Compson over my high school oneitis not being a virgin while I was at the time. It‘s YA/genreshit that has no bearing on even primitive life experiences.

>>21938071
>lit conversations
You really are a zoomer kek. "When they all die out" then YOU will be the one giving the next generation memorable conversations that they'll cherish.

>>21938182
Nah don't do that. bond with them over reading so you positively reinforce it into a lifelong hobby. if you whoop them they'll just hate reading forever. instilling in them a sense of superiority over kids their age is unironically based though

>>21938110
Classics are chosen by academics. The only reasons they "survived", if you want to call it that, are because they were fun or did something that made them culturally relevant.
Shakespeare was slop, Homer was slop, all of them were slop. There is no filter, slop is slop.

Also, you stop lying. When people get tired of Marvelshit, they watch A24 cringe kino, or whatever pretentious slop they get a hold of, like everybody else. Saturation forces them to seek. Like eating the same food over and over again, diversity brings freshness.

>>21936398
Crime and Punishment and Anna Karenina are fucking garbage and that's why they make you read them in school. They want you to hate reading and to think all books are like that.

>>21938301
>academics select for canon based on how fun it is

>>21938323
yeah it's a common theme across his retarded posts he's been repeating

>>21938323
>>academics select for canon based on how fun it is
Yes, faggot. Kit was for the snobs back then, yet Shakespeare is the one that "survived", guess why? Marvel will be your American classics, whether you like it or not.

>>21938333
I have to assume you mean "Kyd" whose use of rhyme frequently approximates, whose metre is noticeably stilted, and whose characters and dialogue display a fraction of the range of emotion in Shakespeare.

>>21938344
Kit Marlowe, retard. Not surprising, that you don't know since you are a "classic" brainwashed faggot, who only read whatever propaganda academics tell you to read.

>>21938357
That‘s a weird turn of reference to an author who is still held in very high esteem and generally considered to have only fallen behind Shakespeare in esteem because of his early death. If your point were more cogent you probably wouldn‘t need to use obtuse vagueness and get this assblasted.

>>21936614
You're pretty much correct.
I loved reading but hated the stuff we read in school. Even classics like To Kill a Mockingbird I didn't read, I just copied others work.
Nowadays I have a whole shelf dedicated to classic books and I enjoy them.
Teens don't give a flying fuck about literature. They want to look pretty and have sex. They don't want to do nerd shit like read books and analyse them.

But regardless, I think it's important that reading and analysing books is part of a school curriculum.
In a perfect world, kids would be able to choose from a number of books (perhaps all with a similar theme or something) and write an essay. So that way they'd be able to choose something that is at least vaguely entertaining to them.

>>21936648
Why do you feel the need to announce that you play the devil's advocate? This is not reddit.

>>21936400
C&P is an anime.

>>21936398
Majority of (your language) teachers have never read any classics, they barely even read books at all. All they read is YA and current day crap. They do not know what makes literature good, do not understand literature and do not enjoy literature. Only thing they have been taught during their education is to listen to and obey authority and that is exactly what they do now. Circle of shit. There were about 50 of us who studied to be language teachers, at most 5 of us read the classics we were supposed to read, the rest just cheated. Teachers are peak pseuds, no wonder every kid has adhd when their teachers are brain dead millennials/zoomers - imagine class lead and prepared by the stupidest motherfucker alive. Majority of teachers can't teach at all and do not understand how to teach and their attempts at using good teaching methods (but being too stupid to understand them) fail spectacularly. I have seen retards with masters in history going in front of class of teenagers from with PowerPoint presentation about fucking Romeo and Juliet. The kids have not read single page from it. He just went over characters, plot, time and space, etc.. At the end he played excerpt of university proffesor talking about it. I was about to murder suicide him. Can't imagine how the kids felt. I pity any talented child who has to suffer in current schools.

The farther away school gets in my memory the more inclined I am to blame the students. Children nowadays are literally just dumber than children were in the past. That isn't to say that the same doesn't apply to the teachers, too, but the quality of the students that teachers have to work with have been in a complete freefall ever since the end of WW2.

>>21938577
To add to this: kids love good literature, but you need to make good selection, for instance Jules Verne is extremely popular amongst early teens even today, without teachers introducing him to them. They enjoy good prose, there is waiting line for his books in our library. If kids would want to read young adult shit, they would already read it, since it is everywhere and easy to come by, but guess what, they don't give a shit about it and find it cringe.
As a language teacher you need to know how to teach it so they experience it. Half a page from classic will give them more than telling them uselless information. You need to balance reading/thinking/talking/creating majority of activity should be in the hands of students. If you expect teens to care about old dead people then you are lost. You need to expect the kids to come from this dead godless age we live in and to deep inside wish to experience something.
And many of these kids have never experienced good prose and get their brains blown out. But you need to teach them even at high school level how to process and understand text. As a teacher your quest is not to make them read, it's to make them WANT to read. As such you serve them appetizers and train their tasting buds.
End of my ESL rant.

>>21936530
Made it to the end and honestly thought 451 was awful in almost every way a book can be. Prose, premise, characters, message. Even in its own genre it only achieved recognition by being the one you read on your dystopian kick after 1984 and BNW because Google recommended it.

>>21938625
>>21938577
You sound like a student who has never had to prepare lesson plans and never experienced how difficult it is to actually be a teacher.

>>21939816
I agree somewhat. Yet unlike this boy, you were able to read through it