/lit/ - Literature

>>21898937
I love literature but I unironically think video games as a gesamtkunstwerk are the highest form there is at the moment.

>>21898937
It has been replaced but people think "old is gold"
Just like the retards that keep riding horses to this day.
Remind me again,.. why did people stopped painting caves?

>>21898937
Waiting patiently for the /tv/ fags to appear

>>21898937
Second to fireworks.
>>21898941
A novel is text-dump only game.
>>21899092
Dropping climate made people switch to houses.

I do. We don’t hear Roman musicians but we read Roman writers.

>>21898937
No. Books are for fags

>>21898937
yes

>>21899178
I agree

No. That is films; mixture of music, photographic framing and narrative

>>21898937
No, (instrumental) music is.

>>21899208
>music, photographic framing and narrative
But none is done at the highest level. Quantity =/= quality

>>21899208
Read more. Maybe you’ll learn how to use a semicolon correctly.

>>21899208
1: read more
2: Watch more movies. 12 angry men is normie trash

>>21899232
You complain about normies yet you use the most normie word for normie. I am very intelligent.

>>21899251
Autism

>>21898937
i love literature and all but i think art takes the prize here. what else can get away with putting a jpeg fucking skull on the floor like a chad

>>21899286
Autism is a superpower.
>>21898937
It is one of the highest, I cannot choose between visual arts and literature and music.

>>21898941
This guy is right. Video games are a fusion of different art forms operating in unison.
>Music
>Visual art
>Text and dialogue
>Architecture
>Gameplay rhythm
It's got the whole shebang

>>21899297
forgot pic

>>21898941
Based

No.

>>21899300
>>21898941
You need to have very little actual knowledge of the other art forms to find video games a good sort of Gesamtkunstwerk.

>>21899208
>mixture of music
>posts film with no music

>>21899313
Alrighty. Show me your ideal Gee Sam-kun's twerk

>>21899300
Unfortunately video game writers are not geniuses and the nature of the medium draws a short-attention span audience which it must gratify, rather than a deeper attention span audience, and these factors means literature will inevitably be superior

>>21899208
This is incorrect and the bar is much lower for film. Hence why the Godfather is no masterpiece in literature but the story in film is considered one of the finest of all, because by film standards it is.

That being said, video games as a medium are still in their infancy. These past ten years have brought us some gems but there is still so much more the medium has to offer. At least it's finally on its way to be accepted as something that isn't entirely for light entertainment and for kids.

>>21899331
Same with theatre. Hamlet is just a snippet of a chronicle by prose standards but for drama it's genius.

>>21898941
>>21899300
Again, none of these on their own are at even a decent level. Quantity does not equal quality.

>>21899333
Video games will always be in their "infancy" because their target audience will always be a select group within the stupid masses, and that select group is manchildren who have the attention span of a goldfish and the taste of an orangutan.

>>21899325
Some operas are OK, if they're staged by good directors.
Though in general I don't think GKW is an especially meaningful endeavour in the first place.

>>21899349
Cope

Nah, video games.
Because they combine every art

>>21898941
>>21899300
>>21899371
Ok, name one (1) video game that's as artistically meritorious as Pale Fire.

>>21899380
Funt

>>21898937
The highest form of art is as follows:
Painting > Music > Literature > The Rest

>>21899380
Noita

>>21899369
Nothing I said is untrue.

>>21899371
Again, for the third time... none of the arts video games combine are made at an acceptable level

>>21899402
Is that webm supposed to attract me to the game?

>>21899412
No. The game sucks and you shouldn't play it

>>21899408
>positivist can only think in terms of hitherto exisiting instances of an art form and not the Form itself
cute

>>21899417
>le whole is le greater than le sum of its parts
Alright, the whole, or the Form, is terrible too. What now?

>>21899405
Notice he doesn't have anything of substance to refute what you said. His mind has been turned to mush by a steady diet of cereal, Marvel films, Netflix, and, obviously, video games. All he can do is repeat stale one-word retorts he's learned from other. Of course his lack critical thinking skills precluded him from having the mental capacity of coming up with anything original in retort.

>>21899416
Well yeah, that is my takeaway for now. It looks pretty repulsive for a game posted in a thread where people claim video games are superior to other art forms such as painting and film.

>>21899423
not an argument

>>21899425
Not an argument

>>21899338
No there are plenty of great and short pieces of prose. The bar is just lower for film

>>21899443
trip tier reading comprehension

>>21898941
>>21899300
LMAO

you genuinely need to leave this board if you think video games are the highest form of art

>>21899425
Yeah, he can't even use the word positivist correctly. I wonder if he knows how much of an idiot he looks when he tries to use words like that but fails? He can only use quips like "cope" "not an argument". No doubt he's also used "seethe" and "touch grass" or will soon. He's probably trolling while he plays Fortnite or whatever it is he considers as art for a video game.

>>21899448
Hamlet is generally read not performed, I mean it is highly regarded as a text not just as performance which you don’t seem to grasp

>>21899463
trip tier non sequitur

>>21898937
Yes, since language is also our political instrument.

>>21898937
Probably, as you not only have to be able to write well but if you want to partake in it there's a high barrier to entry. Having to be literate and dedicate time to sitting down and reading something gate keeps plebs a lot more than just mindlessly watching or listening to something.
>>21899211
This also, I'd say playing in an orchestra is the highest form of musical art.

>>21899380
The Forgotten City

>>21899380
Grim fandango

>>21899328
that's why I only play paradox games and soulslikes

>>21899092
> but people think "old is gold"
>Just like the retards that keep riding horses to this day.
What a fantastic way to turn a reasonable point into a showcase of your stupidity.

>>21899601
I tried to play it because I loved Psychonauts and point-and-clickers as a kid. It was disappointing, honestly, I expected a much more developed atmosphere, maybe I didn't get deep enough into the story to get to the interesting parts? And the riddles were tiring.

>>21899598
Is this what redditors consider to be good writing?

>>21899652
>4chinlets consider it to be bad writing
o i am laffin

The actual reason vidya is the best is because it blocks retards from consuming it. If you don't understand a book you can still read every word in order and claim that you "read" it, but a game will block you from reaching the end unless actually you deserve it.

>>21899673
almost as if... they're games instead of art?

>>21899678
crope

>>21899667
It really is generic and non-literary.
Not that a /mu/tard with his stale decade-old catchphrases would notice. So, whatever.

>>21898937
It's the lowest form of art. The only reason it has better works is because it is free from the influence of jewish shareholders. As an art form, however, it is still the lowest.

>>21899710
>generic
>non-literary
Ah, the piercing insights gleaned from 4 choppy images in MS Paint.
>Not that a /mu/tard with his stale decade-old catchphrases would notice. So, whatever.
I can tell by your attitude that you are extremely frustrated with your own life. I hope you make it to the top, champ. You'll become a more charitable person, which can only be good for the world.

>>21899652
You just got filtered senpai

>>21899380
Portal 2

>>21899380
pale_fire.html

>>21899717
Not an argument. Oh, and projecting. Cope.

>>21899735
not an argument

>>21899735
>implying miserable internet strangers can get me to cope
Nah, it's a great game. Elementary in its philosophy, admittedly, but a lot of fun to play with some well-done Socratic dialogue.

>>21899737
not an argument

>>21898941
>gesamtkunstwerk
well I learned something new today
god, German is a monstrous language

>>21899745
not two arguments
>>21899747
pleb

>>21899754
not an argument

>>21899761
no est pas uno argumenten

>>21899770
not an argument

>people unironically mentioning video games

>>21899775
ᚪᛚᛚ×ᛘᛖᚾ×ᚪᚱᛖ×ᛘᚩᚱᛏᚪᛚ
ᛋᚩᚳᚱᚪᛏᛖᛋ×ᛁᛋ×ᚪ×ᛘᚪᚾ
ᛋᚩᚳᚱᚪᛏᛖᛋ×ᛁᛋ×ᛘᚩᚱᛏᚪᛚ

>>21899795
not an argument

>>21899725

>>21899800
wrong

>>21899808
not an argument

>>21899810
no, it's a statement

>>21899818
not an argument

>>21899820
idiot says not an argument

>>21899825
not an argument

>>21899430
>>21899442
>>21899735
>>21899737
>>21899745
>>21899754
>>21899761
>>21899770
>>21899775
>>21899795
>>21899800
>>21899810
>>21899818
>>21899820
>>21899825
>>21899826
Not a single argument

>>21899848
wrong

>>21899850
not an argument

>>21899856
no, it's a statement

>>21899860
not an argument

>>21899862
idiot says not an argument

>>21899865
not an argument

>>21899867
Bro...let me give you some advice. Just say "not a retort"

>>21899717
>the piercing insights gleaned from 4 choppy images in MS Paint
I don't know, if I wanted to attract someone to a good book, movie or album I'd post a good passage / shot / song from there, not random stuff whose value I discard at the first sight of criticism.

>people start mentioning video games
>thread quality plummets
vidyaniggers deserve the rope

>>21899885
I don't care that much to type out a new response. I just paste the reply and fill out the captcha.

>>21899886
Your loss if you think there is nothing of value.

>>21898941
This is one way to define art as a tangible product of creative work, but often the highest arts are regarded based on how they spur internal thought and feeling. By this definition videogames are the lowest because your consciousness is captured and numbed by constant stimulation. Good literature on the other hand excels at creating a rich internal atmosphere to experience, which can be used to reflect on not only the art itself but also one’s own life.

>>21899092
>Just like the retards that keep riding horses to this day.

Riding horses is incredibly good for your back muscles and posture. Driving in comparison is detrimental. Your view is out of touch with reality.

>>21899940
So I'm supposed to try every random shitty game that gets posted by people on this site because, oh no, otherwise I might miss out?
If you have no positive things to say or show regarding the game, don't act like it's comparable to fucking Nabokov.

>>21899962
Nabokov wasn't very good-looking. I wouldn't want to fuck him.

>>21899970
Are you up for some fisting?

>>21899380
TUNIC
It even employs layers and intertextuality as well.

>>21899979
If you think you can knock me down you seriously underestimate my obesity, old man.

>>21899962
Not my fault you consider Nabokov to be the zenith of art.

>>21899996
It was >>21899380 who brought up Nabokov, I don't consider him a zenith of art but he's definitely more interesting to read than the crap from the screenshot.

>>21900002
The Forgotten City definitely isn't as profound in its meditations as Nabokov or anyone of similar caliber, but as far as video games go, it does a great job of making one think about morals, especially through the lenses of Stoicism and multiple deistic beliefs.

To not consider a video game quoting Seneca the Younger and Roman philosophy on decimation as at least somewhat impressive is silly in my eyes. The prose isn't Proustian but the knowledge imparted is quality.

>>21900012
>To not consider a video game quoting Seneca the Younger and Roman philosophy on decimation as at least somewhat impressive is silly

>>21900016
I'm not at all surprised that you have in your reactions folder pictures of young women that are barely legal as a proxy avatar.

>>21899980
For Nabokov you need to have read quite a few books to enjoy him and for Tunic you need to have played games as well to enjoy it. Checks out

>>21900021
no human is illegal

>>21900012
>The Forgotten City definitely isn't as profound in its meditations as Nabokov or anyone of similar caliber
But that's the thing. People were claiming their games are as great as the literary classics. At least you're admitting this one isn't even close.
>To not consider a video game quoting Seneca the Younger and Roman philosophy on decimation as at least somewhat impressive is silly in my eyes.
Some game writer read Seneca (or, more likely, his Wikipedia page), dug out a quote from there to put it in a game, and that's supposed to impress me? Jesus fuck.

>>21900032
It's a first glance at a much deeper game. You're welcome to make presumptions, but I suggest trying the game. It doesn't go into the far reaches of Classical Philosophy but it is a game that makes you think, and that to me is quality art.

>someone on /lit/ asks a question about art
>entire thread is filled with people saying video games are superior (lmao) and that literature is a low art form
Why the fuck are you losers here?

>>21900044
They are. If Tolstoy lived today, he'd be a gamer.

>>21900044
Because I enjoy reading and also being a contrarian who loves to anger all sides whenever possible.

>>21900044
>contrarianism? on my 4channel board?

>>21899714
>The only reason it has better works is because it is free from the influence of jewish shareholders.
Lel it's a business same as any other

>>21900054
>contrarianism
>redditors fellating gaymes because they're manchildren

>>21900050
video games are about as far away as possible from tolstoy's definition of art

>>21900087
Because he lived in a time where it was not a concept. He'd be a 50,000-viewer Twitch streamer today. In fact, it can be argued Destiny is the modern Tolstoy.

>>21900098
nice alleged certainty fallacy you got there

>>21900105
It's fact brodie

>>21899333
>At least it's finally on its way to be accepted as something that isn't entirely for light entertainment and for kids
Yeah, but only because they're turning into movies with high representation of current political thing.

Literature isn't art.
t.Strindberg

>>21900159
Nope. Those are triple A games and they are negligible.

>>21900250
>Those are triple A games and they are negligible
Negligible to people who like video games and were playing them before they were earning respect. To the people you're talking about who judged them and didn't respect them before the AAA movie games are the vanguard.

>>21898941
/v/toddlers get out

>>21898941
based, but if we're looking at the amount of things you can learn and if we quantified it through the amount of text containing information, video games would be far below books

Those cheap 'leatherbound' editions have ruined leather bound books for me

>>21898937
Second only to music. Literature can't contend with Beethoven or even Schubert. Visual and plastic arts are lower than /lit/, but plebs will always think stuff like painting is higher than music and literature because of its inherently sensuous nature.
>>21899208
>mixture of
If you think this is a good thing you know nothing about art, typical for a fa/tv/irgin. Art is not entirely about mechanical composition, and only pure art forms can be the highest.
>>21899941
Good post.
>>21899402
Love me some Noita but imagine calling it the highest art form.

>>21900650
>inherently sensuous nature as opposed to music

>>21900840
Humans are primarily visual.

>>21900867
Still retarded.

>>21899100
Faulkner was right

Right order straight from God coming through.

>>21901121
It's not true randomness (algorithmic)

>>21900650
Music? You mean spoken poetry, surely.

>>21901064
Start with the Greeks.
>>21901483
I consider that part of literature, (the pinnacle in fact.)

Highest ceiling lowest floor. Lit in potential can induce more beauty and mental change than any other art by merit of its purely mental nature enabling it to construct individual beauties supreme to that individual mind who reads it, however of all the arts, literature is the worst on average, producing the least amount of enjoyment on average. The average song is listenable, the truly average book is unbearable boring. The bad poem is boring and forgettable, the bad film or song is at least mockable, the only time lit is fun to mock is when it’s the lowest levels of fan fiction and so forth.

While I agree that eventually perhaps video games and other such couple have more potential if they fully integrate the other arts; they’re too young meaning they haven’t had thousands of years of masters and build up. But even then, it would still be a mixed bag within the game, stuff like elder scrolls actively try to integrate reading but in reality that just becomes reading books within the context of a game, it’s still just reading ultimately.

so yes highest art is writing, but it’s also the most mid and most low tier art possible on average.

Surely a cheeseburger or a brick or a string repeated over and over are all more impressive feats of artistry than say a rupi kaur poem.

>>21899459
Videogames as interactive films are the highest form of art.

>>21899678
I laughed but he does have a point, an invalid point.
You can troll in videogames, see multiplayer. But with books you can only troll yourself.

>>21899328
I do think one day there will be a Visual-novel William Blake, whose a phenomenal writer and his drawings are just as impressive, I just hope that man is well received and pastiched.

>>21900044
It's just /v/ dunking on /tv/

>>21901529
>Highest ceiling lowest floor
Nope, that's music. Literature is second to it like I said. Bad music isn't just "boring," it's straight up disgusting brainrot. And good music can bring you states of ecstasy and partial enlightenment.

>>21901121
If sculpture is art the so is architecture.

>>21898937
i think music is. look at the orgiastic ecstasy that music brings out of people.

>>21901547
Is feederism art?

>>21901532
No, the interactive element works against it being an art, not in favor. It's essentially a digital board game.

>>21901551
my other argument for music being the highest artform, is that it's a form of communication which is only explained by mathematics and physics

>>21898941
Long ago I played this janky piece of work and it really touched me in a way nothing else ever has. Here I've seen all these courageous tales of a wandering hero who sorts out all a city's problems with an unwavering sense of justice and a strong arm
>see woman being abducted
>try to help
>die
damn, guess I need to improve
>save her
>be invited in for tea
>interrupted by local toughs trying to force them to move
> intervene? Sit quietly in shame to survive?
>die

It was the first time a game ever made me feel like I had to run, or swallow my pride. There's no saving except save-and-quit, so sometimes you really do have to bail on a run to avoid losing dozens of hours of progress on your sword (the only thing that carries between runs).
Over time you get to feel out all the goings-on and hidden plots in town and you can finesse the true good ending by knowing where to apply pressure. But on the way you'll also be forced to make unjust choices, playing out every popular archetype of the wandering samurai, with real takes. All this while being a little silly and more than a little old and busted.
It was revelatory in a way no other kind of art has ever been for me. That said, I don't think it's the highest form, either.

I can't take music seriously. It's way too passive and the average music enjoyer listens to the same 3 songs a hundred times per day.
Plus listening to a 50 min album of a non-commercial genre is considered a major commitment to the wildest, most daring music fan.
Books demand more of you. More time, more commitment. The most ambitious can be read in no less than 50-60 hours. While the most experimental, avant-garde film is 48 hours at best and just demand you sit on your ass for that time.

>>21901544
>Nope, that's music.

Nah no way, bring the lowest quality music you can and at least it’ll have some memorable quality, it can be fun to mock, compare it to the worst of poetry. Even if the music makes you feel bad or just sounds like a mess, that is better than what the worst poetry does.

>bad music isn't just "boring," it's straight up disgusting brainrot.

Bad writing is the same but worse since it’s superior propaganda, just harder to consume for the average person. The beats have made many drug addicts and perverts of otherwise intelligent people who couldn’t be swayed by popular music for example, the sadists produced by de sade are worse than the worst perversion music has produced.

>And good music can bring you states of ecstasy and partial enlightenment.

And great poetry induces great ecstasy, tears, transcendental states that you call enlightenment, absorption into the sublime and the sublate, etc. and all at superior levels for, while music is and has always been popular, its the speech and the tongue, it’s the poem and prose work, the scripture, which controls the heart and soul of nations, the war song inspires the army, the warful book forms the army and makes the war.

Now of course they can be combined, it’s just that the length of the Long poems makes this very very difficult.

Fashion > cooking > music > literature > architecture > film > diarrhea > vidya > the rest

>>21901553
Picture yourself in a museum where there is an special painting and the only requirement to watch it is that you have to paint a line on it yourself afterwards. Does that stop the painting from being art?
Now see how stupid your argument against interactivity actually sounds.

>>21901576
How about hairstyling and makeup?

>>21900055
No, it doesn't need heavy investment. Anyone can privately publish a book.

>>21899380
planescape torment

>>21901547
>so is architecture
start with the Greeks

>>21899297
Classic burger calls painting "art"
>I like art, I go to museums to see it.

As for the rest of the thread noone seems to consider the user/consumer/observer's involvement.

Literature will always feel good for reasons of personal immersion, literally the amount of time you spend to take in the artwork.
Other forms can't have that, but the immediacy of those forms has it's own value.
Music and paintinga might invoke more visceral emotion, but it's also ephemeral, feels like it just happened.
Cinema is in between, you have to sit there with your body 2 or 3 hours and experience it.
A book is a companion for a few days or weeks of your life.

I think everyone keeps arguing while having different standards in mind

>>21899331
No serious individual considers The Godfather to be a great film. Also film is not a literary/narrative art you fool.
If you have seen Bresson, Dreyer and Ozu films you will understand.
Anyway, Music is the highest art as it is the most abstract. That is what the "highest art" is.

>>21902317
Lmao babbys first dip into arthouse huh?

>>21902323
No. I was just using Schrader's examples of transcendental filmmakers. They are well-known enough that i would expect most people to have seen a few of their films here.

>>21898937
Cinema is the highest form of art. Inglourious Basterds is better than any book you can throw at me. I'll wait.

>>21898941
There is not a single video game that has even touched the heights that Cinema is able to reach

>>21902354
not an argument

>>21902354
>3 good scenes make a 2 1/2 slog the highest form of art
this is your brain on /tv/

Literature > Movies (pre 2008) > Music (album longform) > Learning math > Making music > Painting > video games (pre 2008) > movies (post 2008) > video games (post 2008)

>>21902354
Kafka's Complete Stories.

To all the vidya anons in this thread, I sympathise but I also think video games that are put forward as examples of art are highly overrated set pieces and walking sims.

People think aesthetics = art. I would put forward something like System Shock as a work of art. Highly detailed and intricate levels with many solutions to find your way around. Hidden secrets. Locked areas requiring puzzle solving. Careful and strategy rich combat. Resource management. It is a game that is great at being a game.

A piece of art in my opinion, should be the highest pure form of what it is. The thing... on its own terms.

The Porsche 911 is a work of art. It isnt some pretentious sleek machine that looks good and guides you through an emotional experience. It is a well crafted and perfectly balanced machine. It performs well under many circumstances. It breaks smoothly. It accelerates quickly but not jarringly. It handles like it were an extension of your body. It is quiet and stable at high speed. It is a car in its purest form.

Other games that are great at being game-y, if you will:
>Age Of Empires II
>Deus Ex
>Resident Evil (2002 remake)

>>21901567
>It's way too passive
The standard way of enjoying music was playing/singing by yourself until very recently and the option hasn't gone away.
>Plus listening to a 50 min album of a non-commercial genre is considered a major commitment to the wildest, most daring music fan.
(not true, btw) but also irrelevant.
>. More time, more commitment. The most ambitious can be read in no less than 50-60 hours.
Labour theory of value lol.

>>21899302
What's funny about this is that it gives off this "90s GCI demo" vibe, like obviously the only reason the skull is there is to show off this specific technical trick.

>>21899416
This has every marking of "indie dev can't design for shit, and so slathers crazy physics everywhere to try to make it seem interesting"

>>21900012

>>21900016
That's all that needs to be said really. Like, the fact that you can be on a board like /lit/ and say something like this is embarrassing to both yourself and anyone who would even in principle agree with what you are trying to argue.

>>21900044
It's bait.

>>21899100
https://youtu.be/kE7Ot5E4X7A
It's this. Bach > the rest.

>>21901586
>Does that stop the painting from being art?
In your example the interactivity is painting the line. Is the act of painting the line art? Or is the painting art?

>>21901121
You didn't run it through TempleOS, so it doesn't count.
>>21903470
Slathering crazy physics is the kind of art Gods themselves get into

>>21901588
Probably under fashion

>>21898937
No, music is.

>>21898941
Yes, bideo gaems are a mishmash of pretty much all the major forms of art. But that is their only claim to legitimately being called “art”. The elements of games by themselves, visuals, music, writing, are piss-poor in comparison to discrete individual works.

Vidya is shit. Get the fuck off this board.

>>21905466
>open ended question in OP
>mad the responses are varied
Imagine

>>21905470
But surely you can't think that NaughtyDog compares to Cervantes? That Kojima could threaten Dostoevsky? Miyamoto is better than Dante!?

There's a good argument for music, but I can't appreciate it. I can only feel anything if I play it, it's wonderful, but just listening to it doesn't make me feel a thing (unless it's combined with visual artwork).

>>21898937
Music and visual arts are higher than literature, because they convey meaning directly. At best, language conveys meaning roundabout, using approximations between the author and audience. The use of language itself causes this, as the meta-language is lossy-encoded by the intrinsic limitation of language.
On that note, music is more direct even than visual arts, precisely because artists are so concerned with adorning their visual art with a language to contextualize meaning, thus reducing its communicative ability. More often than not, visual art is also approaching meaning roundabout.

>>21898941
Video games, like cinema, are elevated highest by sound, especially music, to the point that the lack of sound or music is as meaningful as the inclusion of it. If it wasn't for the visuals and, especially, the music, video games wouldn't be any different than literature. Artist meaning is obscured by gameplay itself, further by control inputs, becoming the language of games, which carries all the lossy-encoding of any other language.

>>21905498
Musical anhedonia?
Autism?

>raised by the tv screen
>thinks film is the highest artform
Why are you faggots like this?

>>21905532
>Music and visual arts are higher than literature, because they convey meaning directly
Except they don't. They allude it at best.
Song lyrics are closer to twitter posts in terms of form and content. Film screenplays are the backbone of summary of a mediocre novel.
There is no meaning in music, it is the most cynical of all artforms.

>>21905637
terrible post

>>21905641
Put on your headphones and go cry in a corner pretending the world doesn't exist, faggot.

>>21905614
Its not the highest, it's too representative. Music is, without a doubt, the highest artform, as it is the most abstract.
Highest does not mean "best" or "my favorite." Those are different things.
>>21905637
Are you serious?

>>21905650
awful retort

>>21905671
How are they different?
>>21905681
Someone doesn't agree with you. How could this possibly happen? Terrible isn't it.

i was blackpilled on music by Islam and Tolstoy. it's definitely the most effective art form but I wouldn't call it the greatest. narrative is far more important to the human condition than the sensations we feel from music. a great myth or novel is more valuable in the long-term than a good piece of music

>>21905719
I feel highest mean most divine, least connected to human grievances. Therefore, music is the highest.

>>21905719
your retardation is what's terrible

Literature is just applied poetry which is just applied music which is just applied geometry which is just applied mindfulness meditation which is just applied video games which is just an applied US Navy PSYOP which is just applied Army Logistics which is just applied Geography which is the highest form of art as described by Strabo in Book 1 of Geography.

>>21898937
Yes. Just as important, if not more so, than cave paintings that defined our capability for artistic integrity.

>>21905481
Some Kojima IS better than some Dostoevsky.
On a work-by work basis, he might yet achieve better median quality in his lifetime, even despite the fact that he's a loon

>>21905939
Who the fuck is kojima

>>21901576
Instagram posting > sucking dick > makeup > gossiping > fashion > cooking > music > literature > architecture > film > diarrhea > vidya > the rest

>>21898941
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9X3GP8FjogE

>>21898941

>>21907614
FUCK I just bought the abridged edition

the highest? no, that would be rasta music.

>>21899208
So, in your logic, films are the best because they are a mixture of other arts. If we follow your logic, then the highest form of art would be videogames, since it not only has every form of art you mentioned, but also have others like playability and graphics.

video games are not art. people thinking that they are tend to be the worst and the most annoying faggots. funnily enough, what they consider best make for terrible games and could be done better in other media

>>21908002
>graphics
Visuals are one category, dumbass. Graphics has literally never meant anything and I'd assume you're underage if I didn't know retards like you who are my own age.

>>21908148
You said "photographic framing" which is a total different thing than graphics.
Graphics includes drawings, 3d models, live action scenes, CGI scenes, and I can go on.

>>21899349

>>21900012
>To not consider a video game quoting Seneca the Younger and Roman philosophy on decimation as at least somewhat impressive is silly in my eyes.
There is nothing impressive in quoting philosophy. The presentation, or any original insights, matters far more.

>>21898941
>video games only arrived in time for the cultural death of a decaying world
Imagine if vidya had gotten started a century earlier, when our creative spirit was still raging. Video games are a medium of endless potential, and can engage you and tell stories in ways no other medium possibly can. Truly life-changing kino would've come out by now, to appreciated by scholars for centuries to come. Genuinely tragic.

>>21906035
Hideo Kojima is a video game director responsible for the Metal Gear video game series, among other notable works. People joke that he really would rather make movies, but he does a lot of interesting stuff with gameplay as a mechanic for storytelling as well.
If you consider the MGS series his magnum opus, there's probably an argument to be made he's closer to Cervantes then Dosto. It's a series that's half-parody half-admiration of the pulp American spy movie. The characters are often extremely exaggerated and the situations preposterous, but the series is also full of genuinely tender, tragic, and triumphant moments. Also he also plays with the medium, like a boss who "reads your mind" by checking for saves of other games on your memory card and telling you about them, and in the middle of the fight he becomes unbeatable if you don't physically unplug your controller and put it in a different slot. There's also all kinds of very specific tailored asides to the player depending on, interactions with the world, eg, if you're just screwing around shooting seagulls your officer calls your character to berate him for the senseless violence, stuff like that. There's a preposterous amount of side dialogue, and so forth. Apparently he's gotten even more artsy over time, but I haven't checked in for quite a while.
I don't know if it makes games a high art form, but there are definitely a lot of terrible "classics" with less artistic merit than MGS3.

>>21898937
Fuck no.

>>21909014
it's a stupid video game and he himself says they aren't art

>>21909037
>he himself says they aren't art
yeah, he also says clones' feelings aren't real.
What the fuck does he know?

>>21909014
Everything Hideo Kojima touches ends up some funny business for the next 20 years, so it's good enough for me

>>21898937
No: that would be warfare.

>>21898937
>do you think literature is the highest form of art?
OP is a master jester as you can see. The question he poses to us, despite it being able to be answered with a single word, is actually very complex. Read into it and ask yourself:
What is art?
What are the "forms" of art?
What makes a form of art "higher" than another?
What is included in "literature"?

Since OP is asking for an "opinion" I will start off answering these questions and ultimately give an answer to the full question:

Art is anything humans make or do, so the forms include everything made/done by humans; higher art is that which is more effective and efficient in portraying the ideas/feelings of the artist. Since I believe efficiency is of high importance then the highest form of art is whatever leaves the biggest impact with the least effort. I include in literature everything whose primary form of portraying ideas involves writing and reading.

Both writing and reading require a lot of effort, so they are not very efficient art forms, therefore literature is not a high form of art. Live spontaneous contemporary art performances with no props done quickly are the highest form of art.
Think about this next time you take a shit in a public bathroom.

>ctrl+f opera
>zero results

stanley kubrick showed me that it could be film. 2001 is the apex of western art, just like the moon landing was the apex of western civilisation.

>>21899333
see what this anon has said
>>21899349
video games, at the moment, are long past their peak (at least AAA are) in terms of emotionally and artistically technical masterpieces because there's just too much money flowing into the industry right now - video games now make more money than the movie and music industries combined
how can something so profitable have any sort of soul in the classical sense?

pic related are considered to be some of the most sublime and beautiful stories in video games
they all released within 6 years of each other in the early 2000s

>>21910410
>in terms of being* emotionally and artistically technical masterpieces

>>21898937
Poetry transcends literature and all other forms of art.

>>21898937
Men wasting barbarians and constructing cities for women to have and raise children in is peak art OP.

>>21910410
Yeah I've never played games at all but I've always thought Silent Hill 2 is about as best as it can get. I agree with your point that they're long past their peak.

>>21910137
His Music-Dramas are their own thing.

Counterargument against movies and video games (as if you really need one): the more people work on a thing, the worse it is. Also, the more money involved, the worse it is. Every time a work of art goes through an editor, producer, committee, label etc. it's less of a work. Movies, video games, modern popular music, and so on, go through hundreds of people, and that's why they're bad.

>>21910458
Cont.: The same goes for an old artform like Opera, obviously. That's why calling Wagner's music the peak of art is a completely legitimate statement. He fully mastered a massive artform that would previously require many people, and engineered several amazing works all on his own.

>>21910458
Couldn't this also be said of orchestral pieces?

>>21901556
Great post, I love The Way of the Samurai 4 and 3, I should play the earlier ones

>>21910137
false

>>21910458
Shit argument. Tonnes of games are made by a single person.

>>21910812
This just in, Touhou is the highest art! /jp/ wins again!

Poetry, though... It can't be as universal as music, but if the language isn't the problem, then it can be a higher form.

Music is highly regarded as the greatest art form. Read shopenhauer

Literature is highly regarded as the greatest art form. Read hegel

>>21910461
At least with traditional Opera the artwork was usually dominated by one of the central artists, at most two. The composer would have a very specific idea of what he wanted and either the librettist would be his partner or would be told what to do like the choreographer, set designer, costume designer, etc.

>>21910379
>2001
the novel was better

>>21901570
Fair enough, you've convinced me. I just think human consciousness has metamorphosed, (likely for the worse, the self-conscious modern is undeniably more robotic,) in a way that poetry no longer rouses us like it used to, whereas the geometrical nature of music does still hold some vestigial sway over us.

>>21902377
This is dumb but I'll bite: what happened in 2008? Obama?

>>21911580
Nta, but he's probably referring to pic related

>>21910461
Devil's advocate here: AI will eventually make it possible for the average person to make blockbuster films on his own. What then?

>>21902309

>>21910972
Hegel never spoke of literature but of poetry. There were not many novels back in his age.

>>21912204
Poetry is literature.

>>21899380
Subarashiki hibi

>>21898941
twerk lol

>>21898937
Art is an object producing a crafted beautiful experience.
We will take artform to be simply a member in the extension of all those we already standardly consider artforms.
Beauty is the comprehension of unity in variety.

Thm: Videogames have the hgihest capability of displaying the highest variety as an artform
Cor: Videogames have the highest potential as an artform

>>21913929
not an argument

>>21900012
>To not consider a video game quoting Seneca the Younger and Roman philosophy on decimation as at least somewhat impressive is silly in my eyes.
This is exactly why nobody takes video games seriously as an artform. Quoting philosophy doesn't make you look smart at all. Fucking hell, the Greek philosophers even talked about people who namedrop philosophers just to look smart, but aren't.
Go back to /v/ where your filth belong. You don't have a high enough IQ or have read enough books (or have enough knowledge of said books) to browse here.

>>>/v/

>>21914187
>Quoting philosophy doesn't make you look smart at all. Fucking hell, the Greek philosophers even talked about people who namedrop philosophers just to look smart, but aren't.
This is true, but try telling that to literally anyone before like 1980. For a medieval, the fact that The Philosopher said any particular tidbit made it automatically a good argument. 19th century lit is particularly full of retards who namedrop to sound smart, with clearly no command of the material. It's pseud as hell, but still highly respected as art.

>>21914187
This is why I also don't get the dicksucking of Kojima by his fans, it seems like people confuse regurgitating preexisting sociological theories about social engineering in terrible expository dialogue with artistry and I'll just never understand it.

>>21914217
Kojima's not even the worst, but if you're 14 and have never read anything heavy yourself, having some other, more accessible, reference something philosophical or literary looks like the height of intelligence. Kojima's not even the worst, Xeno-series fags fall for this shit the hardest. Just one sappropriated western-mystic concept/namedrop and those dopes can't tell the difference between that and depth.

>>21910568
What? No? The artwork is the piece. Then it's entirely up to the conductor how to perform it. That's another thing entirely. However, there are instances of composers even conducting their own works.
>>21911657
AI is dumb and lame as fuck, so I don't really care.

>>21910812
You're right. My argument would be better just by saying that video games are a shit medium regardless how many people work on it.
I'm still interested though, name some examples.

>>21898937
No, it's music. I love reading, but music is something that transcends words or what we can see.

>>21902317
>>21892458

professional wrestling is the highest form of art

>>21899214
The majority of every medium is low quality trash, including literature. For every <insert "masterpiece"> there are a 1000 shitty YA and other trashy novels and self-help books that are nothing more than marketing scams.

>>21915429
That's entirely true, but there isn't a single video game I would even remotely put as high as the best of literature or music.

>>21915636
Scratch that, I wouldn't even put the best video game as high as the 100th best classical novel or symphony.

>>21898937
No, aerobatics is.

>>21899092
>why did people stopped painting caves?
They literally didn't.

>>21899725
slop
>>21899380
Frogger

>>21899402
>it's art because it has lots of neon particles zooming around the screen
I hate this "aesthetic" so much. ADHD zoomers ruined games.

>>21914217
Kojima isn't liked for the philosophical content of his games, which is shallower than a puddle. He's liked because of the campy dialogue and good gameplay (of the first three solid games)

>>21898937
Much like how making good literature in German is a higher achievement than English, due to the limitations of the language, literature is the highest form of art because it is the most difficult. Language is not one of our immediate senses as it is already clouded by vague but concrete forces unbeknownst to it's user. It also shapes the reality and thought of people most profoundly than other senses. We are our thoughts and our thoughts are language. To be able to successfully travail against this yoke and achieve the sublime is a beautiful performance. Visual art attempts to physically manifest our sensory experiences most honestly (i.e. the expressionists) and music seeks to maximise the pleasure of our hearing and so both submits to the senses it relies upon. Videogames in hand also gives too much vain freedom to its users and the openess of the medium only reifies the problem of modern life and it's bareness. Literature is an art made with a broken hand. The same hand that forms man.

>>21898941
This, when they invent FullDive NerveGear the gesamtkunstwerk will be achieved.

>>21899380
Black Souls

>>21915807
There a definitely some people who desperately try to claim him as some kind of avant garde artist and pretend he “says something about society.” But you’re right that the majority of people know that it’s just silly, campy espionage.

>>21898937
Yes it is, since it requires the biggest amount of effort to read compared to other forms of art.

>>21915948
What if you listen to an audiobook?

>>21916327
Audiobooks aren't books. They are like audiotapes or radio.

>>21898941
It pretty much should be except that no video game that actually comes even close to reaching the peek of what is actually possible.

>>21899328
They can convey complex stories/concepts within video games though, the bigger issue is the people consuming the media itself.
Publishers and investors won't allow it to be in the game unless they dumb it down.
A good 3A game perceived as /lit/ tier is probably RDR2 or TLOU. VNs are a completely different field though.

>>21899380
Disco Elysium

>>21899380
>not a single mention of Pathologic here

>>21899380
I'm stumped. vidya btfo lit is where its at

>>21917061
I was about to post it.

>>21898937
No, music is because it’s a language without words

>>21898937
>>21899114
sorry, but the only truly gigachad/patrician/etc artform is architecture. this is why once you become a king, you can't help but think about how to mold the built environment in accordance to yor vision. this is just how great men are.

>>21898941
as someone who dedicated most of their life to designing videogames, you are wrong. the closest thing to a gesamtkunstwerk is architecture (including interior design and urban design). see >>21918056

>>21898937
I cant say that because although I am a writer of both short stories & poetry as well as non-fiction political analysis for my job, I am also a musician and a painter (a bad one...)

I wouldn't say its the highest form, but its the most intellectual in that visual art isnt a perfection of rhetoric or analysis or prose or thought, its expression of feeling; and music is surprisingly logical once you get into it.

But literature is my favorite by far

>>21918056
You changed my mind

>>21899092
>there isn't a single picture on the walls of his room

bump

Yes.
Literature encourages you to analyze, feel, and imagine. The painter takes away your imagination by presenting you with their image, so all you have left is to analyze and feel. The musician takes away imagination, too, and leaves you with analyzing and feeling--you cannot create your own world out of the lyrics because they are designed to relate to one you already live in, and songs without lyrics relate to nothing in physical reality. For example, if a classical piece makes you feel as though you are flying, its does not necessarily follow that you will imagine you are flying, where you're flying, why you're flying, and how this relates to the human condition--it only leaves you with a feeling. Literature, on the other hand, encourages each individual to imagine things in their own personal way. To use a simple example, I never imagined Hobbits as a child from LoTR the way the movie portrayed them. The guy behind the movie saw in his imagination the hobbits a certain way, different to mine. But in the film, the only way to think of them was his way. That takes away from art, imo. Of course, LoTR is not literature and is a children's book, but I think the example still holds. It would be the rare anon who hears whistlin' dixie and imagines a whole faulkner novel in his head while listening, kek, but there maybe is one autist out there who defies even my imagination on this topic.

>>21921618
>he’s never listened to a record that transported him to another time and place
https://youtu.be/bWebqCRw7o4
You’re missing out dude

Music alone is the highest art. Many great minds of the past have all come to same conclusion. You can read schopenhauers hierarchy of the arts to get a gist of where he believed different arts rank.

>>21921970
Here's an image without the rationale

>>21921970
I think a drawback to music though is that you can only enjoy a piece so many times before it stops being as enjoyable as the first few times you heard it.
It’s ingrained that the entire point is to give you pleasure but that also means like a drug the pleasure runs out quick.
Still makes it the highest form of art imo as that is a sublime quality to have

>>21921987
>I think a drawback to music though is that you can only enjoy a piece so many times before it stops being as enjoyable as the first few times you heard it.
That applies to everything and affects music the least.

>>21921987
Though i disagree and believe the opposite occurs regularly, if we taconsider your supposition we can easily circumvent it through the artists interpretation of compositions.

>>21898937
I'm an autist who min/maxxes my life so I apply that to arts as well. Literature is probably the cheapest way to create eternal masterworks that will enchant people for millennia. Even the cheapest films cost tons of manpower, time, and money, video games are expensive and time consuming to make, paintings are potentially cheaper but becoming a good painter takes plenty of time and materials. However, all you need to create literature is a simple pen and paper, or a typewriter, or PC and all you need to learn to write is to read other books(which are cheap or free if you pirate) and live life. Every single literate human can write literature or fanfiction at the very least and the more people write and compete with each other to create the best work the better the artform of literature itself is.

>>21921994
Getting a song stuck in your head and growing to hate it is very common but many people reread Ulysses constantly for the rest of their lives.

>>21921987
>I think a drawback to music though is that you can only enjoy a piece so many times before it stops being as enjoyable as the first few times you heard it.
what? Music is literally the complete opposite case