/lit/ - Literature

Brave stance 'round these parts. I hope you're ready for an onslaught of disagreement.

Is this book worth reading?

>>21883313
it is if you want to see how narrow minded and weak the arguments are for democracy being the final political system

>>21883299
why?

>>21883313
Yes, I found it interesting and provocative. I liked his take on Hegel's concept of the human need for recognition. I think his last man chapter predicted much about the discontent from the losers on this website.

>>21883299
not an argument

How can Fuckyumama still make chuds and lefties seethe so much? It's impressive really.

>>21883313
I went from thinking he's a clown to agreeing with 90% of what he said.

>>21883318
Refute them then. In my experience 90% of attacks on Fukuyama consist of strawmen like
>uhmmm history hasn't actually ended because stuff is still happening
>look at muh china
>USA bad so he wrong

It's quite astounding how many supposedly serious intellectuals repeating that ad nauseam have clearly not read the book

>>21883560
He got refuted by Spengler

>>21883609
How? The collapse of the west is /pol/tard conspirology. Pls don't point to trannies as proof

>>21883299
No, He got it all right. The US is invincible, and liberal democracy is superior to ALL political systems in existence. For all practical purposes, the war is over.

Liberalism won.

>>21883299
its primary value is as a time capsule for post-cold war western hubris

>>21883802
>Liberalism won.
>Can't even bring Russia to heel
>Let alone China

It is a monument of intellectual arrogance, historical ignorance, and ideological blindness

Events certainly seem to prove him right. Radical Islam as a challenge to the West pretty much faded away with ISIS, last year Russia got exposed as a complete joke who can't even clean out their own backyard swamp, which leaves only China as competition, and I'm pretty skeptical about their supposed supremacy.

>>21883825
>Can't even bring Russia to hee
Russia is unable to defeat a third rate power like Ukraine. They can't even support an invasion on their doorstep.

The US can land an army into Iraq with everything from weapons and equipment (all top class), and even get their soldiers fast food on the battlefield.

The US is invincible.
>China
Lol. Lmao, even.


We have won. These insects aren't worth our concern anymore, except to win elections. China is as below the US as Iraq was.

>>21883825
Russia is done. Maybe Putin doesn't know it yet, who cares, he reads and watches the very propaganda he orders. The question is now whether it survives as an entity or balkanizes. Their ambition of becoming a leader in a "multipolar world order" makes even anti-westerners chuckle now.
China hasn't done anything to be needed to be "brought to heel" yet. Let them fuck around and find out

>>21883846
>The US is invincible.
lol lmao even indeed.
Last (You) from me btw.

>>21883850
Two more weeks bro.

>>21883721
how about no jobs and low wages and high cost of living and polarized literal economy and polarized sexual economy and polarized politics and rising suicides rates and rising mental illness rates and rising crime and bloating security state and invading third world scabs and decreasing quality of air, food, water and reduction in cultural advances and increasing obesity and etc etc etc

Do you have a democracy when anything that is deemed by the state to be a threat to democracy isn't allowed to be democratically chosen by the populace?

>>21883853
The United States doesn't lose wars, it just loses interest
- Mad Dog Mattis

The US just got bored of Afghanistan. Bin Laden was dead, Al Qaeda is practically neutralized, and nobody is interested in wasting time and money on those useless louts.

>>21883868
Who knows what "democracy" means, anymore. It's been used to death to describe God-knows-what.

People LOVE to lament any "threat" to it, but nary a peep when the federal govt. decides on its own to spend taxpayer money on a massive scale, and the commoner gets no say. I very much remember a nationwide vote being had to secure billions annually to Israel instead of infrastructure improvement...

>>21883873
As far as I can tell "democracy" just means neoliberalism, which is supported by a facade of democratic choice.

I'm sure history seemed to have ended in 117 ad, too

>>21883380
clinging to dead ideologies will do that to people. it's extra funny since the impulse to seek out a different path is rooted in an above-average awareness, which is why the nazi and the maoist both carry within them the knowledge of their respective ideologies' utter failure and the futility that goes into their relentless preaching
"cope and seethe", as they say

>>21883862
If you're impacted by any of those "issues" you're the type of undesirable who'd be cleaned away in an alternative regime anyway. Wash your penis, son.

>>21883873
so sick of hearing "our democracy." it's an objective fact that we do not live in a democracy. Passed legislation has no correlation with public opinion. Pretty hard to argue your government is an expression of the will of the people when every action it takes is demonstrably irrelevant thereto.

https://scholar.princeton.edu/sites/default/files/mgilens/files/gilens_and_page_2014_-testing_theories_of_american_politics.doc.pdf

>>21883916
>goalposts
regardless, everyone is impacted by a failing society. You can become a tech billionaire with an immaculately clean penis and still get stabbed in the middle of the street and bleed out like a little bitch, as we've just seen. Unfortunately for you, no man is an island.

>>21883916
Nice deflection. How about a proper rebuttal to the argument?

>>21883560
Democracy has a tendency to end with "not true socialism/communism"

Fukuyama confuses his own ideological preferences with objective historical facts and an evolutionary process. He does not consider the possibility that there may be other legitimate or desirable ways of organizing human society than liberal democracy, or development of systems that will surpass liberal democracy in effectiveness at achieving it's purported goals of allowing for the greatest amount of opportunity, freedom, individual rights and so on. His understanding of history is as a deterministic and progressive process that follows a single logic or direction. He fails to recognize that history is not a linear or teleological process that leads to a single predetermined outcome, but rather a complex and contingent phenomenon that reflects the diversity and dynamism of human experience.

>>21883855
Well, there was a point in time when the collapse of the soviet union was two weeks away, or yugoslavia for that matter. It can happen quickly or be drawn out. The whole 2 weeks meme is pretty dumb, reminds one of Russell's analogy about the chicken that gets fed every day and feels secure, and then one fine day gets slaughtered.

>>21883957
>Well, there was a point in time when the collapse of the soviet union was two weeks away, or yugoslavia for that matter.
>this doesn't apply to the United States

>>21883872
"You can't lose a war if you just stop fighting" - Smarty McSmartyPants

>>21883962
The United States is invincible, as it is the nation blessed by God himself

>>21883997
God hates America

>>21883964
No, you're right, the Taliban defeated the US, the American leadership will be whipped through the streets of Kabul and put on trial next week.

>>21883303
all of the neocons are clowns

>>21883962
It well might, it's just that the threats to US stability are way more abstract and indirect than those to Russia's.
The logic of Fukuyamas idea, whatever his personal sympathies might be, does not say that the US is some eternal monolith that can't ever collapse, just that societies tend towards liberal democracy in some form that's appropriate to the particular nation. Hell, humanity might be decimated in a nuclear war, then the cycle of development will just start over and go towards democracy once more, nit because some powerful nation has decreed that it's the best thing ever but because humans desire freedom and self-determination after basic needs are met. Trying to suppress that by force only leads to stagnation, eventually authoritarian states just fall behind and crumble by inner conflicts. It will happen to China too.

>>21884017
The US has a liberal democratic society where marginalized groups have more freedoms and rights than in any society that came before, yet demands for justice and equality from marginalized groups, such as women, minorities, LGBT etc. still continue to complain that the current system is oppressive and limiting, which seems to indicate that there may be something beyond what liberal democracy can provide to achieve true freedom.

>>21884017

The US has a liberal democratic society where marginalized groups have more freedoms and rights than in any society that came before, yet there continues to be constant demands for justice and equality from marginalized groups, such as women, minorities, LGBT etc. and these groups claim the current liberal democratic system is oppressive and limiting, which seems to indicate that there may be something beyond what liberal democracy can provide to achieve true freedom for all of humanity.

>>21883846
Your framework of reducing power to military slapfights betrays part of why the US is losing, China has been completing its objectives without just clumsily bombing dissenting countries into smithereens, read Unrestricted Warfare.

>>21884118
Something beyond what any political system can provide. The desire for more unconditional freedom is a bottomless hole, people aren't just one day suddenly going to be satisfied. They want to throw off all social expectations and obligations, perfect atomism, but with welfare of course. You can't actually have a society that way.

>>21884118
Their grievances are rooted in selfishness and narcissism, but it is objectively clear that they are better off in a liberal democratic system than any other political system

As someone who has a degree in political science, I can tell that you that 99% of political theory is literally useless. I had to read tons of academic papers in political journals where they would drone on and on about how they can "prove" through science and data that a low corn crop in the 4th quarter of 1987 is what caused a civil war in some third world shithole in Africa.
Political science is basically just word games dancing around the real issues. None of them will say niggers have low IQ and that's why brown countries will never flourish, none will mention the jewish elephant in the room, and all think that democracy (the objective worst form of government) is fine and dandy, and that all political discourse must be filtered through the lens of democracy. If they all just admitted these uncomfortable truths, they can sum up their books in a few paragraphs.
Read Rousseau and Bakunin and that's basically all you need to understand how bad things really are.
t. someone who has read more political philosophy than 99% of /lit/

>>21884140
>these are just word games they do
>not me though I know truth and fact
based

>>21884140
Well, as someone who has collected more than enough credits for a degree in fucking-your-mum I would modestly disagree.

>>21884140
>Political science is basically just word games dancing around the real issues
>none will mention the jewish elephant in the room

Makes sense. What you described sounds like the perfect field for Jewish people

>>21884118
Maybe, but the grievance peddlers seem to be a good example/preview for Fukuyamas Last Man, people who will start shit out of boredom, exactly because there's no HAPPENING (of history). The very lack of resistance to their demands of "self-expression" gives it away, they would sooo love to be rebels (in some comfy way ofc) but they just get indulged and praised like children

>>21883303
90% of people shit on Fukuyama all the time even though most of his claims in this book are pretty much correct for the time being

>>21884140
>Read Rousseau and Bakunin

lol

>But 9/11 and the multiple wars in the Middle East proved history didn't end
Fukuyama's thesis was that Liberalism constituted the end of human political development. No further systems will be invented, Liberalism will just continue to be refined in various ways. Cycles of war and violence can still happen.
>China and Russia have already refuted Liberalism
Russia is a reviled dogshit country and China does not export Chinese socialism anywhere else. Both countries are nationalist states and keep their ideologies within their immediate borders. They don't counter liberal hegemony in an existential manner.
>Fukuyama has disavowed his former claims
Flat-out untrue. He has acknowledged that liberal democracy will struggle for dominance but still believes it is the ideal system that most people will strive towards. He has reaffirmed his beliefs in plenty of recent essays, books and articles.
>Liberal countries have devolved into police states ruled by oligarchic classes and coerce people into their progressive values, which contradictions liberalism
None of this is a betrayal of Liberalism, it's a realization of it. Liberalism's true purpose is to placate the masses into passivity and economic production. Liberalism is not a rigid dogma, it's a malleable and arbitrary ideology. As Fukuyama constantly argues all that matters is that people believe in the tenets of liberal democracy and the superiority of liberal countries in order for the system to survive. The loss of faith in Soviet communism was the true reason for the country's collapse and Fukuyama knows this. The only reason you whine about these "contradictions" is because you pathetic losers are in fact liberals too (see Jordan Peterson)
>Right-wing extremists and commies are everywhere today
The vast, vast majority of leftist activism is peacefully represented within liberal democracy and most of them intersect with liberal values anyways. It has been like this since the 60s. Right-wing extremists are barely relevant outside of a couple terrorist attacks, and again most conservatives only whine about the current state of the world because they think it betrays liberalism.

>>21884122
>our framework of reducing power to military slapfights betrays part of why the US is losing
>the USA is losing

There's your problem. The US is more powerful than ever, and all her enemies are crumbling. The Chinese are stagnating, the Russians are a joke, the EU is now hitched to Washington, and the US is now getting ready to finish them off.

Economically, geopolitically, militarily, scientifically, or culturally, the US is #1. And will remain so for the entire century.

>>21884198
>>21884202
>>21883526
>Rome is the greatest empire it could never collapse

>>21883299
What's the current anti-liberalist cope? BRICS?

>>21884300
Not sure why you seem to think that he said the US can't collapse. That's not his point at all.

>>21884202
Between the construction of a surveillance-police state, an internationalized economy controlled by a cabal of plutocrats, and the systematic, institutionalized unaccountability of elites both governmental and private, liberalism is hollow husk waiting for another 9/11 to collapse into complete totalitarianism without any rule of law or accountability. It's a complete hyper-real facade waiting to implode.

>>21883825
Goddamn I wish I was a senior CCP official.

>>21884414
So you could get purged if you did anything wrong or your existence became inconvenient?

this man is a clown

>>21884411
i guess you skipped over my point about this. everything you just mentioned is literally how liberal democracy works anyways, by design.

>>21884140
>if only everyone agreed with me that jews are to blame for everything wrong with the world with zero nuance!
pseud

There's something really powerful about an English first name and a Japanese last name.

>>21883299
All the liberal niggers in this thread cannot even conceptualise freedom. Let's pretend that people are not product's pf their environment lol. This concept of "freedom of indiviudal self" is as mythical as that of a divine entity.

>>21884433
Hello Jew.

>>21884447
There's no need to "conceptualize" it, it's a primary phenomenon. Freedom and consciousness are practically interchangeable

>>21884429
There's nothing "liberal" or "democratic" about having a crypto-garrison state ran by an international plutocracy beyond any sense of rule of law, transparency, or accountability. Fukuyama puts these three latter institutions as central to liberalism in his other works, and its obvious to everyone paying attention that they are on their way out in the USA. Its downright illiberal and is the direct result of the militarization of the economy after WW2 in tandem with further conglomeration and globalization of the economy since.

>>21884465
Hardly. What are the laws of physics other than boundaries restricting your freedom. Absolute freedom is anarchy and Chaos.

>>21884460
>>>/pol/
Read Braudel and elite theory and stop being a retard

>>21883299
Lmao keep seething. Ukraine is winning.

>>21884479
>Ukraine is winning
By killing it's people and turning into a Jewish oligarchy

>>21884472
>There's nothing "liberal" or "democratic" about having a crypto-garrison state ran by an international plutocracy beyond any sense of rule of law, transparency, or accountability.
That's the only way to protect migrants and trans folks, chud. Get used to it.

>>21884500
>it's
fail

>>21883299

How is liberalism supposed to sustain itself with countries having falling birth rates and importing people who despise democracy?

>>21884202
Lmao imagine still believing that the USA defeated the USSR politically and that the fall of USSR wasn't coordinated

>>21884429
>actually true liberalism is supposed to be 1984 tier dystopia
So China and Democratic People's Republic of Korea are liberal as well?

>>21883872
Just like the US lost interest in Vietnam and in Korea

>>21884572
That anon posts his nonsense copy-and-paste response in every Fukuyama thread. He refuses to admit that liberalism's contradictions are slowly descending into dystopia and just says its all part of the plan.

>>21884479
whites are dying/being displaced by the tens of thousands over whether eastern jews or western jews get to exploit a country too small to have any meaningful national identity on the global political stage. Kikes win again, who'd a' thunk?

>>21883862
Polarization is a meme, and non-existent. Most people fall somewhere close around the center, and can't be bothered by crazy politics from either extremes

>>21884616
what was that, you stupid pseud? This was 2014, btw.

>>21884429
If so, how exactly does this encourage freedom and self determination and all these virtues Fukayama claims liberal democracy provides?

>>21884606
>too small to have any meaningful national identity on the global political stage
What does that even mean? On which global stage does one have national identity?
Ukraine is bringing national pride tempered by war back in style. Of all people trad right wingers should be rooting for it the most. Putins Russia is more degenerate than Weimar under the propaganda lid.

>>21884688
>Ukraine is bringing national pride
Lmao no it's still a crime in cucked country like Germany

>>21884703
Germany made a 100 bil extra military budget and normies are celebrating it. Unthinkable just a few years ago. Maybe its still a "crime" now but it's changing.

>>21884726
They are still importing millions of turks and Arabs

>>21884733
Maybe they're gonna be cannon fodder in yet another german world domination chimpout

>>21884758
Lol no they are protected Class who gets housing for free

>>21884585
>>21884472
You misunderstand me. I'm not a liberal, I post these responses because every thread is filled with retards who make the same dumb arguments that true liberalism is actually great and pure and this "false" liberalism we live in today is a betrayal. It isn't. The fact that you people keep insisting there's a dichotomy between authoritarian rule and liberal rule is itself a core component of liberal propaganda that they have always used to terrorize the world. Liberalism is indeed contradictory and incoherent but literally the only thing that matters is the masses continue to believe it works. The trick of the system is that all this "rule of law" and "accountability" bullshit you believe is completely fake. Since day 1 America and liberal democracy have been power-hungry genocidal institutions that use the ideals of freedom to enslave people. Yes, it is a part of the plan. This is how the modern system works. Democrats worshiping trannies and sodomites more than they fix the economy doesn't mean the system suddenly doesn't work when the system is an illusion anyway

>>21884572
If China functioned the exact same way it did now but replaced its socialist ideology with gay pride parades, pop culture idolatry, daily sermons about freedom and individuality, fake elections that change nothing, presidential speeches about how we need to spread democracy and liberty in other countries then yes, China would be pretty much the same as America.

>>21884789
Liberalism would work without universal suffrage and Jewish subversion

>>21884789
You so clearly haven't read Fukuyama whatsoever. His entire two volumes of Origins of Political and Political Order and Decay reiterated, dozens and dozens of times, that liberalism is built on three institutions:
1.) A strong state
2.) Rule of law
3.) Accountability
Without all three of these institutions at the same time, YOU DO NOT HAVE A LIBERAL SOCIETY. Without the latter two you just have a shitty despotic regime, akin to China where the state dominates without any avenue for recourse for civil society. What you've done is just demonstrate that the current power structure is just brainwashing the public into a false consciousness that thinks its liberal, when in reality its an oligarchic, cybernetic abomination that is completely without rule of law and accountability for its ruling class. Spooks can overthrow foreign governments with impunity, the military can drone strike weddings without a single person going to jail, 3000 Americans can get slaughtered over an intelligence failure without a single person getting fired, and economic elites can rape children in the Virgin Islands with complete and utter impunity. Brushing off the fact the latter institutions listed as fake and gay and ignoring the construction of a proto-totalitarian garrison state isn't an real argument, you're just shifting the goalposts and totally blurring the definition of what liberalism even is to suit your own opinion. This shit is clearly illiberal, and you're making shit up to say its liberal. You've done this multiple times before in other Fukuyama threads and it comes off as sophistry.

>>21884635
>he thinks "liberal" and "conservative" are extremes

>>21884688
>What does that even mean?
it means its destiny is to be puppeted by one superpower or another. Most nations are like that

>Ukraine is bringing national pride tempered by war back in style
white people aren't allowed to have pride. As soon as that kike Zelensky is done massacring real ethnic ukrainians they'll do a 180° and say the war wasnt' for Ukraine, it was for Democracy™ and that they fought for tolerance and inclusivity and that's why they need to import shitskins with double digit IQs to replace their dead.

>Putins Russia is more degenerate than Weimar under the propaganda lid.
funny, i don't see russian embassies flying fag flags or blowing hundred of millions of dollars on gender equity initiatives abroad.

Anyway Putin is kiked out the ass, too. I'm sure Dugin would love to flood ukraine with a bunch of bulbheads.

>>21884688
>Of all people trad right wingers should be rooting for it the most
Like just about any modern conflict, both "sides" would be better served by doing an about face, and massacring their respective "leadership."

>>21884833
You fail to understand that those institutions are created to facilitate the despotism you're complaining about. America absolutely has all 3 of those institutions just like other developed liberal democracies do. You're convinced that those institutions don't exist right now because liberal states demonstrate so much reckless disregard for their populations and untouchable power but I'm not convinced those institutions were ever supposed to do anything other than protect the powerful elite in the first place. What you see as "totalitarian" or "authoritarian" as mutually exclusive from liberalism is a complete lie created by liberals themselves. Liberalism has the same capacity for cruelty and domination using its institutions, that's what makes it such a contradictory ideology. I understand my position is highly unpopular even among critics of America and the West right now but I genuinely think it's because most people are not really anti-liberal enough. You still like how the institutions sound on paper so when things are shit right now you come to the conclusion that they aren't working as intended. The real crisis we have today is, what if they are? What if this is all what liberalism was inevitably going to end up as? What if all those institutions are good for is creating complacency and granting power to the few? You are scared to consider this question.

has these kinds of threads ever come up with a novel insight? it's always the same libtard vs poltard, NATOchud vs Zigger shit, "oh wow we're gonna neolib and globohomo our way to a soft totalitarian China but without national characteristics" or whatever.

desu, the idea that it's gonna be liberalism vs. authoritarianism as the only meaningful political distinctions, which end up only being superficial as they both function as weird 1984/BNW hybrid states, is the only one that makes any sense.

anybody else got something interesting to add? anything unfathomably based? or you are just gonna talk about whatever headlines got you ranting lately?

>>21884863
Putin's Russia is degenerate in other ways. They project an image of strong traditionalist christian Russia, but in practice it is a hedonist society with major drug problems, AIDS, violence, poverty, corruption, etc

>>21884900
Liberalism is a self correcting problem and after the collapse we can throw the ideology into the trash

>>21884913
i don't really care about that. I'm not rooting for Russia to win anyway. My fantasy best-case scenario is Russia puts a bullet through Zelensky's rat brains and then packs it up and leaves.

>>21884863
god damn it
it hurts to say it but youre probably right. theyre going to use ukraine as testing ground for the great reset and import millions of 3rd worlders to "rebuild"

>>21884893
>You fail to understand that those institutions are created to facilitate the despotism you're complaining about
They're not, they're specifically designed to hold power holders accountable and constrain the state. They've completely failed to do so and will continue to do so. The problem of state secrecy alone has totally undermined them alone, hence my Truman quote earlier here >>21884472. This doesn't even get into the political-economics of the more modern-era, which has totally shifted the balance of power in politics since the times of Jefferson, Hamilton, and Madison. They'd be completely horrified at what has occurred, and it wouldn't be because of trannies, but of the permanent state of war, intense party-factionalism and internationalized plutocracy. Liberal-democratic society, as Fukuyama describes it himself, is in freefall, but shitlibs (like Fukuyama) have their heads in the sand over it, and like to pretend that things are ok, when they're clearly not.

Where you argue that these institutions were always meant to protect the powerful is where we depart. That isn't liberal, its illiberal to a T. It not only smacks in the face of what Fukuyama describes as liberalism but its a spectacularly dangerous trend towards some God awful despotic future. Fundamentally, thanks to public ignorance, state secrecy, and mass media brainwashing and distracting the public, public vigilance has failed, and consequently accountability and then rule of law have fallen away and will continue to do so.

>>21884943
They are going to turn it into the next Israel

>>21884915
It'll always come back when people get tired of struggling for dumb causes and dumb people. Liberalism is the closest we have to a secular utopianism that can actually work for a decent amount of time before collapsing. It'll never go away in spirit.

>>21884913
Russia is Chinese and China is Russian, they are both Asiatic Eurasian powers that do not give a fuck about preserving ethnic and cultural diversity and not just imposing their retarded slave empire jackboot on everybody. The only people in history who have given a fuck about such things are Europeans.

A multipolar world is a good thing but we're in a difficult spot because China is a subhuman bug race, Russia is run by oligarchs who will turn everyone into churka mystery meat with slant eyes, and the West is run by the pedophile vampire Anglo-Jewish-American deep state and its millions of immigrant race traitor upper middle managerial class servitors. None of these groups is good, nobody should want any of them to win. You should ONLY care about what is left of European genetic stock being preserved from Americanization (mongrelization), which is already taking place in Europe but is going to reach truly American levels of mystery meat within the next generation both for simple reasons of habituation/demographics and because it will be pushed even more aggressively. You WILL see the disappearance of real Europeans in your lifetime, it may just take two or three generations to be truly complete, but it will effectively be impossible to reverse within one generation.

I repeat, the only thing you should care about is playing whatever long game is necessary to preserve European genetic stock and ideally European culture and self-consciousness (sense of shared history/identity). You can lose a thousand battles as long as you win that war. The world is already 80% dysgenic soup, only Europeans with a strategic alliance with some other races (Japanese for example) can reverse it and restore basic geopolitical sanity.

Unironically, India may be a good ally in this and preventing them from allying with either China or Russia would be a good idea. India has a lot of problems but good cultural traditions based on morality. Generally anti-bug mentality. They're just poor as fuck and still effectively medieval right now.

>>21884976
Also Persians would be a good ally but I think the ship has sailed. Arabs and Turks wouldn't be bad allies but they have massive dysgenics problems. But still, some good anti-Asiatic (Gog and Magog) traditions in there and the potential for multipolar allies against the bug hordes beyond the Gates of Alexander in the East and the vampires in the West.

>>21884943
>theyre going to use ukraine as testing ground for the great reset
ukraine was the perfect country for them to do it in, too. There were a lot of rightwing elements—WERE being the operative word here—because the ukrainian people still remember the Holodomor and the perils of communism. Well, no longer.

>>21884900
I think this thread hasn't been too bad at discussing fukuyamas core ideas and their logic without too much shitthrowing. But concerning
>anything unfathomably based?
the only path out of the endless dialectic you mention may be technological, for better or worse. It's conceivable that human governance is taken out of human hands one day, by automation just as in factories. The humans living then will be mentally almost a different kind of species. No elites and leaders because they're not needed. There's nothing to fight against or even administer. But that ofc would be a proper end of history.
The very fact that we find it so hard to even imagine something different than the lib. vs authr. swing perhaps indicates we're at the end of a stage as a species

>>21884976
India is only a good ally for Whites if you plan on becoming Asatru, Rodnover, or a Hellenist. Christian baggage is, and has always been, the biggest roadblock to any kind of meaningful dialogue between Whites and Indians. I mean that literally, Christian groups in India doing lawfare for Muslims against Hindus is a huge sticking point for Indians. Indians will absolutely side with Russia and China against Whites if they're required to in order to survive, that's what they're doing NOW ("India" has been a Russian ally since it was the territory occupied by the East India Company).

>>21884531
It isn't. States are created by people. Rome was created by Romans, when the Dacian mutt took over and locked the Romans out, Rome collapsed. When America runs out of Americans, it too will collapse. This is what the people who get butthurt about China and India having a gazillion suhuman vermin don't get: as long as you have enough people with IQs about 100 in the right places, they can control the infinity subhuman masses around them.

>>21883853
Afghanistan doesn't undermine the liberal Weltordnung though. It's a shithole, utterly incapable of actually inspiring any organized opposition to Liberal Imperial interests. Afghanistan is the equivalent to John Wilkes Booth shooting Lincoln, it doesn't undo the ultimate victory of the Union.

>>21883962
The USA is not a multinational union like these countries, everyone seemingly forgets this.
There is no Ukraine or Kazakhstan or Croatia or Bosnia for the USA. The USA is a very culturally homogeneous country where people cross state lines all the time and generally identify with the nation as a whole. Nobody is going to die in the war of Ohio independence

>>21885174
Something something libtards something something conservatives.

I'm not disagreeing, I think that most Libtards will immediately change positions once some new ideology comes into power, but that's the argument he's making.

>>21885174
I agree with your general point, but there are some clear regional divides, and Texas/the South in particular have strong regional identity compared to other states.

>>21883560
He was refuted by Patrick Deneen

It's a great and thoughtful book, I'm about 200 pages in right now. People criticizing it here clearly haven't read it and are just attacking the simplified central argument

>>21883299
Actually, being against liberalism in 2023 is the true sign of clown behavior.

>>21883873
>Who knows what "democracy" means
Democracy has literally been morphed into meaning Neoliberalism now. It's so fucked and orwellian the way they change words to mean whatever they want at a moments basis.

>>21883997
God wants to smite America. America is the Great Satan himself.

In 1989, when the Berlin Wall fell and the Soviet Union collapsed, many Western intellectuals celebrated the triumph of liberal democracy and free-market capitalism over communism. One of them was Francis Fukuyama, who famously declared that we had reached “the end of history” and that “the universalization of Western liberal democracy” was “the final form of human government.”

Fukuyama was not alone in his optimism. Many politicians and pundits hailed the dawn of a new world order, in which the former communist countries would embrace the values and institutions of the West and join the global community of prosperous and peaceful nations. They expected that the transition from totalitarianism to democracy, from planned economy to market economy, would be smooth and swift, and that the benefits of the free market would be widely shared by all. They were wrong.

Neoliberalism is the doctrine that markets are always right and the main driver of human behavior. It is based on a simplistic and ahistorical view of human nature and society, which disregards the role of culture, tradition, religion, morality, and collective identity in shaping human behavior and preferences. It is also based on a blind faith in the power of technology and globalization to solve all problems and create unlimited opportunities for everyone. Neoliberalism was the dominant ideology of the West in the late 20th century, and it was exported (or "forced upon") to the rest of the world through various means: economic aid, trade agreements, structural adjustment programs, military interventions, cultural influence, etc. It was especially imposed to great extremes on the former communist countries after 1989, as a condition for their integration into the Western political order.

The results were disastrous. The neoliberal shock therapy that was applied to these countries involved a rapid privatization of state-owned enterprises, a liberalization of prices and trade, a deregulation of markets and labor laws, welfare cuts etc. They created a massive transfer of wealth from the public to the private sphere. They destroyed the existing industrial base and social infrastructure, they created mass unemployment and poverty, they increased inequality and insecurity. The conditions provoked social discontent and political instability. A demographic crisis, mass population decline and brain drain was the result. National sovereignty and cultural identity were eroded, all the communist oligarchs just bought everything back up.

Thirty years later, we can see that the end of history was a mirage, and that the post-communist transition was a disaster for most of the people who lived through it. Instead of becoming models of democracy and development, many of the former Warsaw Pact and Eastern Bloc states have become corrupt oligarchies ruled by authoritarian strongmen, plagued by economic decline, social unrest, ethnic conflict, and demographic crisis.

>>21885654
the great swindle

Thanks for the bait, OP
Fukuyama threads are always kino

I'd say the recent events in Ukraine have made his wisdom obvious.

All illiberal nations are doomed to becoming third rate poverty stricken hellholes choking with corruption and violence. All liberal nations are fated to be rich, successful and happy.

The battle of ideologies is over. We won.

>>21885904
Yup, he’s very provocative in a good way love him or hate him

>>21886121
This is so naive I don't know where to begin

>>21886566
I'm just saying it like it is.

Communism, fascism, nationalism, it's all bunk. We won already. Nothing can compete with us on ANY field, be it military, science, economy, or whatever.

>>21883299
did you know Fukuyama was in Steve Sailer's Human Biodiversity Institute listserv? i found that interesting

>>21886611
You really think liberalism will suddenly turn Ukraine into a prosperous nation

>>21885036
Demographics are destiny

Is Fukuyama the ultimate pseud detector? Few other authors have both their defenders and detractors being equally clueless about what the man actually says.
Here is the text wesjones.com/eoh.htm

>>21886755
Of course. It's already made them a powerful army capable of castrating a nation four times their size.

>>21883825
anybody have the edit with Xi and henchmen as an mmo boss?

>>21886773
Pretty sure barely any working historians take him seriously. I was talking to a professor the other day because I wanted to get his thoughts on "the origins of political order" (Martin Daunton, economic history prof at Cambridge) and he totally dismissed Fukuyama saying he only read "the end of history" and immediately knew he was a total hack. He said he didn't have any colleagues who took him seriously.

America is basically the smartest retard on the short bus, it is a corrupt failing state but the rest of the world is even worse

>>21886760
>>21885036
Read the first chapter of this, on Rome:
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/44908/44908-h/44908-h.htm#p_1

I guarantee it will stay with you for life
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/44908/44908-h/44908-h.htm#p_1

liberal democracy is designed to be consolidated into its polar opposite. this happens as the useful idiots cheer on the transition

>>21886864
The entire liberal world order uses his position to justify itself, so yeah he’s pretty influential and this book is quite important even if most disagree with it. Whether or not we’re actually at “the end of history” doesn’t matter, what matters is that the most powerful countries presume we are. His Political Order books are on most college reading lists for political science students

>>21887876
Does Fukuyama address the problem of demographics and limited resources?
Does he support women's suffrage?

>>21885036
>When America runs out of Americans, it too will collapse
Where do you draw the line for "Americans"?
Is the descendant of Catholic wops and Polacks "true American" but the descendant of some Chinese coolies "not American"? WASPs are only 10% of the population now so they're out of the game

>>21888083
Too bad WASPs are like the only competent people in the country. Can basically track US going to shit by the percentage of WASPs in overall population.

>>21887777
is this the hegelian dialect being set in motion? liberal democracy synthesizes with its antithesis to become the current abomination

>>21888136
*dialectic

>>21888100
Not even a joke. Even in Religion, mainline Protestants are probably the least batshit crazy of the lot (although tbf I believe most Catholic Americans are also quite mellowed out)

>>21883299
He's actually quite smart and his book just encapsulates the, not unjustified, thinking of many during the time: that the US had achieved unrivaled global hegemony and that it would usher in a new and long age of stability and global conformity. The idea that "history has ended," i.e. the world has become stable, isn't exactly new. Hell, just a few decades before Fukuyama, Brezhnev thought the end of history had started in the 70s and that the world was just going to be a static situation of USSR vs. US for a very long long time. Thinking things aren't going to change is a very easy trap for humans, even smart ones, to fall into given how short human lifespans are in the grand scheme of things and how much humans inherently dislike change.

>>21888175
Fukuyama is just the sociological equivalent of economists who believe in MMT and that USA can keep printing money forever because they are the reserve currency

>>21888136
yup, now you're getting it

>>21883365
The problem with his theories of recognition that lefttards throw around amount to the pot calling the kettle black

>>21888276
Ultra based

Never read him but it's hard for me to take anyone seriously as a deep political thinker worth listening if they aren't at least somewhat socialist/Marxist. Tried briefly looking up what his take is on the matter and why not but he seemingly just dodges the question completely. Shrug.

>>21888414
> but it's hard for me to take anyone seriously as a deep political thinker worth listening if they aren't at least somewhat socialist/Marxist
Thanks for your input retard.

>>21888259
Any indication they're not getting away with it?

>>21888414
Low effort bait

>>21888580
Honest opinion, I felt like throwing in the pot. And a vague hope someone would have a clue to what his reasoning is. I'm always curious about the "former" Marxists and very serious people that have rejected it and what their reasoning is, but they pretty much never intelligently explain their reasoning for rejection.

I knew it would trigger people though, like that one angry retard replying to me. Bet he doesn't even know why he's so mad. Still sincere.

>>21888588
Graduating from materialism to idealism.

>>21884472
>rule of law, transparency, or accountability
None of these words mean anything, really. They are just excuses for liberals to swing their dick around against groups they feel threatened or annoyed by. A group is lawful, transparent, and accountable when it behaves like libs want that group to behave, and authoritarian when it does not. None of the words liberals use mean anything.

>>21884212
>economically, geopolitically, militarily, scientifically, or culturally, the US is #1.

Then why did France,Japan,Brazil, and Saudi Arabia start trading oil in yuan and roubles?

>>21884140
>As someone who has a degree in political science

Stopped reading right there.

>>21888778
idk but nobody cares about oil pegging anymore

>>21888169
>mainline Protestants are probably the least batshit crazy of the lot

>>21888520
Any indication they are?

>>21883299
this man's work will come to be regarded as more destructive than Mein Kampf, the Communist Manifesto, and the Doctrine of Fascism combined

>>21888814
For some reason I doubt that.

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/03/28/energy/eu-us-oil-imports-overtake-russia/index.html

>>21889240
all of these works, including fukuyama's, go back to hegel. marx and gentile were students of hegel. hegel was the single most destructive force in the history of western thought

>>21888083
Anglos have a poor ability to distinguish ethnicity, so yes a Pole or a Russian or a Spaniard can absolutely become "American" because "American" means "White". Now, in reality, this requires that Pole to basically become an Anglo in terms of culture, mindset, religion, worldview, etc, but even then Anglos are themselves a hodgepodge unified by basic genetic stock (being White, which really just means being roughly 1/3rd Steppe Herder, 1/3rd Anatolian Farmer, and 1/3rd Neolithic Hunter Gatherer) and shared ideas.

Yes, this does mean that you can have high-IQ yet non-White individuals at the periphery, but they must remain at the periphery because if they ever congregate they'll start adopting different ideas. Non-White + high-IQ + right ideology can work, Non-White + high-IQ + wrong ideology can work, and people will absolutely adopt a different ideology the moment they start go from being a minority to a Minority.

You can replace the White stuff with whatever race you please, this applies just as much to Japan (which will no longer be Japan when the Japanese are not allowed to run their own state) as it does the US, Rome, Israel, whatever.

>>21889347
What is so bad about Hegel specifically then?

Europe now being full with muzzies and niggers alone has completely discredited liberalism for me and I think anybody who chooses to ignore this shit has his head up his ass.
90s optimism if fucking over, Fuckuyama aged like milk.

>>21889493
Hegel was a devout Christian and took the concept of linear time very seriously. He thought that you could define the point of Creation (by the Jewish tribal deity) and calculate forward a predestined plan that would culminate in the literal actual The End Of History (wherein the Jewish tribal deity unmakes time). His whole philosophy is built around this idea, and it ends with Napoleon conquering the world, making French the global language, instituting Christianity as the planet's religion, and ushering in the Rabbinical Messianic Era of infinite Liberalism.

This has been absolutely disastrous as it's empowered all sorts of morons (like Marx) to take this basic toolkit and apply it to whatever they want. That's literal, everything is on the table for moving towards The End Of History, you can literally do whatever you want and justify whatever you want on the grounds that it's necessary to move towards The End Of History.

>>21888778
>Then why did France,Japan,Brazil, and Saudi Arabia start trading oil in yuan and roubles?
Lol, who cares? They'll be using the dollar anyway, because dollars are the reserve currency for good reason.

The US just keeps winning

>>21883846
you just fled Afghanistan you dimwit. a massive humiliation for a ,,first world power''.

>>21883299
Had to read this for my political science master's degree course (yeah it is an even worse meme than you think). Fukuyama, like all neoliberal/globohomo morons, came to this ridiculous conclusion at the time because of the dissolution of the Soviet Union and philosophies such as those of John Rawles. However, their conclusions about political systems have always been and will always be wrong because they have a fundamental misunderstanding of human nature. Human nature is that of sin, imperfection, and struggle exactly as it is described in the Bible. Humanity is not something you can refine. Late 20th Century liberal Western democracy is a made up political system that milquetoast leftists too pussyfooted to say they are socialists, communists, etc., believe is the objectively best system. They can't come to grips with the fact that democracy is a type of tyranny in which the elites wield ridiculous power because they're able to fool 51% of the public to give them an irreproachable mandate, assuming honest elections even happen (which they don't). They look at the short window of misleading comfort and high living standards the West has been permitted by its parasitic masters and use that to support their claim. They willfully ignore the corruption, the warmongering, the degeneracy, all the evil of it because it makes them feel superior to do so.

>>21889347
fukuyama also adds a kojeve's perversion to the mix, arguably the worst of the lot.

>>21883846
>The US can land an army into Iraq with everything from weapons and equipment (all top class), and even get their soldiers fast food on the battlefield.
That was 20 years ago. I doubt we could pull it off today honestly.

>>21884500
>>21884606
As I said:
>keep seething

>>21889396
Rent free

>>21888588
An academic being Marxist doesn’t automatically make them “right” it doesn’t work that way. You’re just taking a personal opinion and trying to universalize it

>>21885552
The great Satan doesn’t have a nation it transcends borders

>>21884202
even if that's true a lot of people here are extremely miserable and even people that aren't extremely political are starting to complain.

>>21890817
Not him but he gave it as a necessary, not sufficient condition.
It's debatable, certainly every serious political thinker will be influenced by marx, people repeating the "marx killed 80 million people" meme aren't serious.

>>21890802
enjoy hell, pig

>>21883560
>It's astounding that people on /lit/ don't read
First day?

>>21890834
Even someone like Ludwig Von Mises?

>>21884476
Elite Theory is self defeating.

>>21888778
>Source?
Appeared to me in a dream

>>21891064
No I meant actual public intellectuals with names and careers. It's astounding how often you hear the most pseud misrepresentations of F., stuff like "he was debunked by 9/11"

>>21891079
Anyone who's using that as a takedown of Marx's thought isn't making a good-faith effort. One can very well argue that capitalism led to the first world war (as predicted by Engels with eerie precision) but that wouldn't make a proper argument against Mises, Hayek, Friedman or whoever.
It's of the kind "X is wrong because bad things were done by people influenced by X, discussion over." You would have to condemn pretty much all philosophies that way

Bump

>>21889240
No, this will.

>>21890774
It's literally happening right now in Ukraine. Russia is just a shitty dictatorship instead of a comically inept meme tyranny.

>>21883951
Honestly cant say much about this because i never read the damn book, but this is probably the most sane and sober thing i have fucking read on this site.

>>21884893
You a schmitt reader? He makes very similar points against liberalism in creating a casus belli for 30s German expansionism
>liberal countries don't believe physical expansionism against sovereign European states is legitimate but they still need to do geopolitics
>liberal countries strangle you with sanctions and treaties designed to vassalize your country
>but they don't actually invade you so it isn't vassalization even though they are conducting what amounts to total war because they're trying to starve your non-combatant population, starvation is a bloodless death therefore it isn't an attack
>the only way to fight the economic hegemony of liberal states is through extra-economic means (war)
>now you are the aggressor, despot, human-rights abuser even though you are responding to liberal economic aggression
>now liberals who don't believe in war can declare war with a clear conscience

big evidence for it working like this can be seen in how most liberal countries renamed their departments of war to departments of defense. This allows liberalism to justify itself to itself because it means that all illiberal, authoritarian acts it conducts are inherently defensive and thus ultimately in defense of liberalism. So illiberalism and liberalism are both liberal. Which means that liberalism can defy its own standards without even realizing it, because anyone who is an enemy of liberalism is an enemy of humanity
>it's a feature not a bug

>>21883299
he is. promortalist philosophy completely BTFO of liberals, fascists and communists.

there isn't a single argument in this whole thread that proves fukuyama right

>>21883951
I think the concern is whether or not people would WANT to organize modern society on anything beyond liberal democracy. The day that private property is abolished, the day where people stop believing in individuality, freedom, liberation, slave morality, democracy — can you really imagine that day any time soon? Is he really so delusional to claim most people will still believe those things after times of conflict and schism?

>>21893630
I have not read Schmitt but I’ve been meaning to, sounds like I’d agree with him on virtually everything though

>>21893630
I have not read Schmitt but I’ve been meaning to, sounds like I’d agree with him on virtually everything though based on your post. Liberalism is nothing but obfuscation to conceal power dynamics and create a complacent population. Fukuyama himself admits this on occasion and you still have morons who think that any exertion of violence and domination from liberal states is a “betrayal” of liberalism and suddenly these states are “authoritarian.” There’s really nothing else I can say about it other than most people simply don’t see the truth and can’t see it because they’re programmed from birth to believe liberal values are objective, neutral and unquestionably correct. The entire foundation of modernity rests on liberal assumptions of science and society.

>>21891267
I don’t argue in good faith you must have me mistaken for someone else

>>21894485
Stop conflating unaccountable spook-banking ran globalism with liberalism. It borderline has more in common with Oceania of 1984 than the ideals and country founded by Jefferson & Co. Its sophistry to conflate the matter otherwise.

>>21895302
i will not

>>21883825
pic goes unbelievably hard

>>21894775
Well I only ever argue to win no matter what but one of the tools for that is accusing others of arguing in bad faith

>>21896375
Most so-called “logical fallacies” are human constructs

>>21894448
Many are convinced that they do, but will quickly learn that they took the comforts of liberalism for granted.

>>21883951
This comment is spot on. Fuckuyama is nothing but a mouthpiece for the neoliberal establishment that wants to impose its hegemonic vision of the world on the rest of the world.

He ignores the fact that liberal democracy is a historical anomaly that emerged from specific historical and material conditions that are not universal or eternal. It is a Eurocentric imperialist view. He also naturally neglects the fact that liberal democracy is a sham that serves the interests of the capitalist class and exploits the majority of the people, rather than promoting liberation.

His reading of Hegel has no clue about the contradictions and crises that plague the capitalist system and threaten its very existence, which is why it fails. If it weren't for his alignment with the establishment consensus, he would be rightly seen as a deluded and arrogant ideologue.

We cannot let ourselves as a species believe that it is impossible to overcome the alienation, oppression, and inequality that characterize liberal democracy and that this is the nadir of human thought. It is a myopic view.

>>21897108
>contradictions and crises that threaten capitalism
Such as?

>>21896707
>>21894448
No one likes the current system, they just get punished for dissenting. The precise moment that people don't have to live under ZOG, they won't.
>but CONSOOM and PRODOOS
You can have modern industrial conveniences under an illiberal state.

>>21895302
Jefferson & Co. leads to ZOG. It can only object negatively, not positively. It can say that ZOG is wrong, but it cannot actually suggest anything to do other than ZOG. You cannot have Jefferson & Co. on an extended timeline just like you cannot be 23 on an extended timeline. All things are born, grow, live, wither, die, and they usually die according to some probability distribution of most common ways to die. For Jefferson & Co., it's poz.

>>21897124

one example: capitalism by necessity is driven by a pursuit of endless growth. it creates a market that is driven by the need for constant expansion and profit, but that is of course limited by the finite natural resources and space. crises of overproduction, underconsumption, and ecological destruction which in turn lead to waste, pollution, poor health, and many other consequences.

the very central contradiction of capitalism is of course the inherently exploitative fundamental nature of it. it creates and relies on a class of workers who produce all the wealth but receive only a fraction of it, and not enough to live off of in many places in the capitalist west, while the surplus wealth is extracted by a class of owners who produce nothing tangible and are dependent on their workers.

>>21884976
>team up with india
Nice try rajeet, not tryna dilute my genes with fecal matter

>>21896116
Only chinks trying to fit in by saying nigger shit or niggers say shit like 'goes hard'. Which are you?

>>21897744
uh i just thought the pic was mafia-esque?

>>21897108
All "arguments" presented both by you and the post you quote are touchy-feely indignation because "it j-just CAN'T be this way, there MUST be something amazingly better etc etc" without providing even a suggestion, as always with utopians and marxists.
At least Fuk made concrete claims, which always opens one to criticism. But vague dismissal can make one sound smart without actually having to say anything.

fukuyama just stole kojeves thesis who stole it from hegel and applied it to the end of the soviet union because he is a boot licker

i will accept the fukuyama thesis only if the chinese communist party dies, until then history goes on

>>21883825
China is on borrowed time and the Evergrand crisis nearly taking all of Asia's economy with it proved it.
Russia arent a concern any more after watchng Ukraine.
>We'll use nukes
go on then
>Seriously we'll nuke ukraine
ok do it
>We'll nuke you too if you intefere more
We're doing it - nuke us
etc etc

>>21883868
Yes, it's called a functioning democracy. This is basically how all of Europe's governments work.

>>21898234
lol

The Pentagon has predicted the US will collapse in the next 30 years due the pressure of climate change. There's a report about it.

>>21886864
>Pretty sure barely any working historians take him seriously. I was talking to a professor the other day because I wanted to get his thoughts on "the origins of political order" (Martin Daunton, economic history prof at Cambridge) and he totally dismissed Fukuyama saying he only read "the end of history" and immediately knew he was a total hack. He said he didn't have any colleagues who took him seriously.
I knew immediately when I read that post that said professor was a Leftist. It is not surprising that an opponent of liberal democracy would think the author of the End of History is a hack.

The talk about evolution is nonsense. Evolution had no end state. Species don't necessarily become more intelligent over time. Sometimes if it is beneficial for a species to becomer dumber because it spends less energy then it does it. there won't be an end of history because there CANT be an end of history.

We are at the edge of adopting radical technologies that will destroy the pillars of humanity, from genetic engineering to automation and AI. Liberalism has NO answer for any of these questions. New ideological movements will be born out of these new technologies just like the industrial revolution spawned liberalism, Marxism, and fascism.

Bump for most based thread on lit now

>>21897108
Fukuyama's argument is that Liberalism is not a uniquely Western ideology and its values see success all around the world because it satisfies the human desire for recognition (thumos). Even if materially the system ends up crumbling people will naturally gravitate towards liberal beliefs in the rubble. This essentially already happened after the world wars. When countries develop materially they always become liberal to a degree because the masses want a sense of individuality and participation. This is simply true. Even in illiberal countries like China and Saudi Arabia, life in the urban centers is not much different from the West.

>>21899618
>This essentially already happened after the world wars.

Wasn't that more due to America becoming the preeminent power in the world and bank rolling Western Europe's recovery or executing/supporting coup d'états of American friendly regimes?

>>21897133
Jefferson & Co. were geniuses in their own right, but they, especially Jefferson, predicated their ideals on Lockean concepts of human nature. If they had known then what we knew now about human psychology and sociology, one could doubt they would have been so democratically, perhaps even republicanly, inclined

>>21898449
this. the assertion that liberalism is a mythical end point of all human development is simply hubris and short sightedness