/lit/ - Literature

Whenever I read an intermediate text I have to keep looking up words and my arm hurts so I Gert frustrated and stop

>>21888804
>I have to keep looking up words and my arm hurts so I Gert frustrated and stop
Use Whitakers Words: https://latin-words.com/
There is also a mobile app that has no ads and is offline. I believe you can also download it for desktop. Write out the new words on a sheet of paper. Every time you have to look up the same word twice, you will have the definition on a sheet of paper already. Put a start or asterisk next to words you keep looking up more than once. At the end of the day make flashcards only for the difficult words.

>>21886879
No one has the right to occupy another person's body without their consent.

I'm interested in learning something, also I just stared down a deer whilst taking a piss. I'm thinking an hart for he wanted to charge me, the mangy fuck. My dick says sumerian but my other parts say do latin.

>>21888951
Your dick knows the personal risk to itself if you pick latin

Gothic and Old Norse are our true cultural legacies

>>21888646
I guess ancient greek learners will be able to reply
Do you find getting inpooot with modern greek whilst learning ancient greek hinders your progress? Meaning, are you learning things that don't apply to your target language and maybe even corrupting your progress so far, is does it only help and you can keep the two things separate? I ask because I'm learning biblical Hebrew, but I'm starting to understand modern Hebrew too somehow, but I heard both are different

>>21889467
Not even commenting on grammar or vocabulary, modern Greek pronunciation in itself is so drastically different that it's unintelligible when spoken for someone learning ancient pronunciation conventions even if the written form might be closer.

Every thread there are posters theorizing about read-alongs but no one ever posts Latin
This is the first few lines of the Aeneid. Everyone learning Latin, from beginners to advanced students, would benefit from memorizing it. Print it out or write it down and do scansion. Practice saying it out aloud. Get the feel for long and short syllables, for feet, for dactyls and spondees, for elisions, for caesurae and icti. Depending on your level and experience this may be easy or difficult. Ask if you have questions.
Once you have it memorized post your own translations. Discuss why and how you translated phrases and words. Critique each other and offer criticisms both good and bad.
Again this may seem extremely difficult at first but stick with it. This is one of the cornerstones of Western literature, you would be doing yourself a disservice in not knowing and understanding it.

>>21889508
Here is a cheat sheet if you are having trouble. Don't look this up until you have tried it yourself.
http://www.poesialatina.it/_ns/Testi/Vergil/Aen01.htm
On the right hand panel find Visualizza metrica and click it to see the scansion. If you are confused about elision click the Evidenzia elisioni box.
This entire site is a fantastic resource for Greek and Latin, its only drawback being in Italian. If you have studied classical languages you should be able to figure out the interface regardless.
While you should use it to check your work and to help with troublesome passages do not use it as a crutch. It is a bad habit to go straight to the answers before attempting to figure something out yourself.

>>21889507
So greek doesn't have that issue, I see, a good bonus for a hard language.

>>21889536
>So greek doesn't have that issue,
Doesn't have what issue?

Input chads, have you humilitiated a grammar cuck today?

>>21889539
Of mistaking the modern version with the ancient one

>>21887027
I'm going to keep this brief. I don't know of any Jewish Aramaic younger than the Zohar, but I do know that it should exist. I spent the past hour going down a rabbit hole of Akkadian words preserved in NENA and nowhere else in Aramaic. I could try asking around, but it could be a bit tricky.

>>21889467
>>21889591
>I ask because I'm learning biblical Hebrew, but I'm starting to understand modern Hebrew too somehow, but I heard both are different
Not far into Hebrew, but I'd say the closeness between the classical and modern variant is one of the positives of the language! Moses being able to buy bread in a supermarket and all that...
MH grammar seems to be just a subset of BH gammar, and the vocabulary mostly a superset. So the main problem with going from BH to MH is just the shitload of words for modern concepts you have to learn. The other direction would be more challenging, but since you're learning BH, I wouldn't worry at all about mixing it up with MH.

>>21890459
What uses does hebrew have between reading the original bible or having a nice stay in Israel? Seems way less usefull to me than latin or old greek material wise.

>>21890576
Not the best person to answer, but since you asked me:
> Seems way less usefull to me than latin or old greek material wise.
I agree, but that's a high bar. It's not a tier 1 language like those two, but still more useful than the vast majority of classical languages (and easier to boot).
> What uses does hebrew have between reading the original bible or having a nice stay in Israel?
There's an endless sea of Rabbinic literature, which you might or might not find entertaining. From al-Andalus, we also have lots of surviving secular poetry. The Dream of the Poem by Cole is a nice English anthology, if you're interested.
From the same era, we have Arabic-inspired writings like Zabara's The Book of Delight, if you're in the mood for something oriental but can't into Arabic.
Later on, Haskalah literature starts to make an impact in Europe.
> or having a nice stay in Israel?
Since this is /lit/: there's also Israeli literature. The only other classical language I can think of that opens up modern literature is Arabic, so in that regard it is more useful than Latin.
(As an indirect advantage, Hebrew is also a natural stepping stone for Aramaic and most other AME languages, but for those, secular works will be even harder to come by.)

>>21889467
Doesn't sound like you know enough about either language. Reading-wise it should be of some benefit. Historical phonologies are a more complex and disputable matter.

>>21890576
>What uses does hebrew have between reading the original bible or having a nice stay in Israel?
It also has KINO
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlZO-ZdjMzA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWVUWRJFV-I
https://vimeo.com/510788559
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKR3vsyl6Ok
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mI6AFVQIcSQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-bIgwDgI6Y
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5Tkh5LEjvQ

and tens of thousands of books
https://hebrewbooks.org/

>>21889467
I may have stumbled onto some modern Greek every now and then since I began learning ancient Greek but the two are different enough that you simply don't want to mix things up, i.e getting input in the modern will probably do more harm than good and sway you away from idiomatic Attic

>>21889467
Why would learning modern Greek hinder ancient Greek progress? It only serves to help due to the shared vocab, and frankly you should NOT learn an ancient language without knowing a descendant. That'd be like learning Old Enlgish without learning modern English.

>>21890940
> frankly you should NOT learn an ancient language without knowing a descendant
I'm learning Italian and Latin and I'm falling for false friends and going for Latin words when trying to speak Italian often enough that it's a problem. Would never advise a classical language learner to learn a descendant, unless he wants to learn it anyway, and even then, not at the same time.
> That'd be like learning Old Enlgish without learning modern English.
The reason this sounds so stupid is because everyone remotely interested in OE knows modern already. OE is probably closer to Germany anyway, and most OE learners won't ever learn German.

>>21891038
>I'm learning Italian and Latin and I'm falling for false friends and going for Latin words when trying to speak Italian often enough that it's a problem.
I know French, Spanish and Italian and when I read Latin, I know not to get fooled by false friends, which simply takes 2 things: (1) etymological awareness, ie recognizing that meaning shifts over time and (2) creating separate mental categories for each language, rather than just 1 mental category for "foreign languages". And when you can see how meaning has shifted over time and see the relation between words, remembering vocab becomes child's play. So I don't think your argument is valid even though I understand where you're coming from. The bottom line is that the issue is possible to avoid.
>The reason this sounds so stupid is because everyone remotely interested in OE knows modern already.
But it still sounds absurd. Just apply the same logic to Latin or Greek. You wouldn't have someone who knows no Germanic languages study Germanic philology who knows no modern Germanic language. Imagine teaching a Chinese speaker Gothic before German or English. It's also the most natural order of progression to learn the modern language. Ancient languages are taught in a clinical and artificial fashion. Getting a feel for the modern language first makes the ancient one come more alive.

>>21887955
How does that work on 4chins?
Like, we read a chapter by thread or what?

>>21891318
> How does that work on 4chins?
It doesn't. The most successful one was the guy who posted a Catullus poem every day, and even that died down after a week or two.
You either have no problems with the material, but then there's no reason to post, or you have questions, but then you can ask those questions any time.
The only advantage of a schedule is to have people stick to it, but if the judgement of anonymous Ugaritic Clay Tablet forum users is enough, then you probably have enough self-discipline to not require motivation of that kind.

It might make some sense with obscure languages (everything that's not Latin, Greek, Hebrew), just to ensure someone is around to answer questions every other week or so.

>>21891362
>the guy who posted a Catullus poem every day
Think that was me, not just Catullus but selections from Cicero, Juvenal, Quintilian, and more. Longer than a couple weeks, I aimed for one per thread, but it died down because almost no one responded and the threads devolved into too much shit-flinging.
I also posted >>21889508
>>21889528
earlier and got zero responses so far. Virgil isn't the easiest author but Aeneid I.1-11 are cornerstones of Latin education.

>>21891445
>earlier and got zero responses so far. Virgil isn't the easiest author but Aeneid I.1-11 are cornerstones of Latin education.
I said we should have started with Nepos or Caesar. It might be bad enough that we have to start with Fabulae Faciles or Epitome Historiae Sacrae.

>>21891445
>earlier and got zero responses so far
tbqh the thread just started
I(OP btw) tried also various output initiatives to see if they would gain some interest but aside from the first /lang/ style challenge which got some replies I guess they are either too demanding for beginners and not too interesting for those already more fluent.
I think the thread has potential and found a sweet spot between staying afloat easily but not being too fast/shitpost-heavy, but it's still hard to get thread initiatives running

>>21891318
>>21891362
>>21891445
>>21891510
>>21891960
Focusing on Latin to English translation or doing Latin readalongs is a waste of time since the majority of the Latin learners on here are on chapter 4 of their textbooks and have been for the last 5 years. I think we should just stop pretending like more than 3 people in this thread can actually read Latin. We might technically have more Latin posters than Hebrew overall, but I think we have more people who can read Hebrew and Aramaic fluently than Greek and Latin. We might even have more Chinese and Sanskrit learners who are at least intermediate than L&G intermediate learners. And it seems if any of them do reach any kind of level of significant ability they end up quitting because they realize they aren't actually interested in any of the things that they are able to read. So they certainly can't discuss literature or grammar at a high level in the thread.

We are running out of bullshit to argue about. We need elevate the discussion and filter out the people who have nothing to contribute. Nobody fucking cares what the best introductory Latin textbook is. There is nothing else to be said on that topic that hasn't already been debated to death and it doesn't matter because 98% of you aren't going to fucking finish it anyways. Instead I have to sit here and argue about books that I've finished with someone who hasn't even read the preface.

Let's expand the thread to medieval languages and modern literary languages like Modern Standard Arabic or even Literary Finnish or Welsh. We can also have discussions for people who want to learn French, German, or Russian with the sole intent of reading literature. /clg/ needs to be rebranded as /llg/ - Literary Languages General.

>>21890940
>Why would learning modern Greek hinder ancient Greek progress?
Because now you will have two different versions of the same word which you will have to remember, for example. I also fear it would mess the intuition on grammar and the language in general that you get from constant exposure to it (you could get used modern greek grammar which would make it harder to understand ancient greek grammar intuitively).

>That'd be like learning Old Enlgish without learning modern English
This could be done but yes it would be easier learning the modern English first. Still, in theory, you would have a much easier time reaching "native" level in Old English by ONLY leading Old English then by learning Modern English and then learning Old English, supposing both had the same required amount of inpoooting material (they don't so this I just theory).

>>21891038
I guess this is more of a problem when you need to write and speak the language

>>21891088
>false friends
>>21891038
>false friends
Don't you mean false cognates?

>>21892099
> the majority of the Latin learners on here are on chapter 4 of their textbooks and have been for the last 5 years
> we should just stop pretending like more than 3 people in this thread can actually read Latin
> if any of them do reach any kind of level of significant ability they end up quitting because they realize they aren't actually interested in any of the things that they are able to read
Or, you know, advanced learners know how to look up things for themselves. I was actually following along with the Catullus readings back then, but what do you want me to post? "I understood everything", "I had trouble with the first word in line 5, but looked it up in OLD, I'm good now"?

> Let's expand the thread to medieval languages
They were always welcome. A short time ago, someone was talking about Old Occitan, but like with other more obscure languages, saying they're welcome won't make learners magically appear.
> We can also have discussions for people who want to learn French, German, or Russian with the sole intent of reading literature. /clg/ needs to be rebranded as /llg/ - Literary Languages General.
No, this also was tried in the past, but Jannies will move threads about modern languages to /int/, where there already exists a /lang/ general, so you might just as well go there.

> Nobody fucking cares what the best introductory Latin textbook is.
On that at least we agree at least.

>>21892175
>Or, you know, advanced learners know how to look up things for themselves
Who's talking about looking things up? I'm talking about discussions. You don't have to think outloud and livepost your reaction to everything that you read. That wasn't the point that I was making. What are you even on about?
>A short time ago, someone was talking about Old Occitan,
That was ME, dumbass.
>No, this also was tried in the past, but Jannies will move threads about modern languages to /int/, where there already exists a /lang/ general, so you might just as well go there.
So we can't post on /LIT/ about learning LITerary languages to read LITerature?

>>21892099
nah I think there's plenty of us that are at a more advanced level and mostly don't need to ask the sort of questions beginners ask, that's why I think maybe some thread initiative should be thought up that engages also non-beginners(especially in output/composition imho, we are all probably already reading some stuff and don't need to add more)
the thread is already broad enough in scope and we mean "classical" in a rather broad sense anyway, including medieval languages, it's basically all languages that have a literary tradition but aren't modern
I guess we could (though it already is to some degree) replace the L in clg with Literature or maybe do a cllg, literature & languages, but in any case I believe it's a fairly balanced thread as it is, we aren't having much trouble keeping it afloat ad /lit/ is slow enough for the genre and audience

seriously if you have some ideas to make the thread more engaging to its lurkers, go ahead, I tried some stuff but without much success, maybe I'm bad at it

I need to earn enough money to retire young (~45) and dedicate my life to a hobbyist academic pursuit of reading all great works of literature in their original languages? only then will I publish my first and only novel (a canonical masterpiece that endures the test of time, of course)

>>21892225
>mostly don't need to ask the sort of questions beginners ask
My complaint is not that people aren't asking enough advanced questions. I'm talking about advanced *discussion*. It doesn't need to be people asking for advice. I'm not saying "gee why won't anyone ask a more interesting question".

>>21892232
Okay.

>>21892191
> Who's talking about looking things up? I'm talking about discussions. You don't have to think outloud and livepost your reaction to everything that you read. That wasn't the point that I was making. What are you even on about?
I provided an explanation for why the thread appears to be devoid of people proficient in classical languages, even though it's not true. I even provided and example that you that you conveniently ignored. Be specific: What exactly would you have wanted me to post about the Catullus readings? Every discussion we could possibly have has been had in the past, better, and written down.

>>A short time ago, someone was talking about Old Occitan,
> That was ME, dumbass.
Rude, and doesn't have anything to do with the point I was making. I was also shilling OHG in the past, what I'm saying is that medieval languages were always welcome here.

> So we can't post on /LIT/ about learning LITerary languages to read LITerature?
Please make that about a separate general (which will get moved to /int/, as you can see in the archives). And if you manage to sneak in modern languages here: people already bitch about how much the thread focuses on Latin, which will be a fond memory of a better time, once the Spanish learners pour in.

>>21890576
Holly shit.

>>21892108
>Because now you will have two different versions of the same word which you will have to remember, for example. I also fear it would mess the intuition on grammar and the language in general that you get from constant exposure to it
Are you monolingual? Knowing another language does not interfere with your ability to know another, even if it's an earlier stage of the same language. See this post >>21891088 as to why this is a non-issue.
>This could be done but yes it would be easier learning the modern English first.
It could be done, no doubt, but in practice it's absurd. I'm just applying the same logic to Latin and Greek. It's like saying that you're too good to interact with the people who directly inherited these languages and seems just like the thing an ivory tower academic would do.

>>21888804
>>21888840
There’s also a Wiktionary app.

>>21892377
>There’s also a Wiktionary app.
I can't find an app. I know the website, but no solution for mobile.

>>21892417
It’s called Wiktionary Reader. May have been developed by a third party and not Wiktionary per se.

>>21892455
Is that apple only? I have android.

>>21892503
I use it on iPhone yeah, so idk if it’s on Android.

>>21892232
lmao

>>21892099
>We might technically have more Latin posters than Hebrew overall, but I think we have more people who can read Hebrew and Aramaic fluently than Greek and Latin
Hebrew chads! We just keep winning!
This deserves a meme

The virgin Latin alumnus
> hears about the many famous Latin authors and books, finds all of them boring when he actually manages to read them (after hundreds of hours studying it)
> boring American alphabet he already knows, has only a few distortions, one letter means nothing
> dead language, no one can speak it, has no modern counterpart, all it's lingustic descendants sound nothing alike
> grammar method cuck, studying is physically painful and frustrating
> only even likes Latin because of a hollywood movie-induced admiration for ancient globohomo which enslaved and killed many of his own ancestors and still runs the western worldfri the shadows
> language of roman catholicism, not only NOT the religion of Jesus, but also a globohomo tool
> will never be able to SHOCK the natives, because there are none, and it's descendants will just think you're a freak for trying to talk in Latin
> will never even touch a woman, let alone get a roman girlfriend (which does not exist anyway)

תַּלְמִיד Hebrew chad The
> wants to read literally one single book, the best of all time, know his efforts were worth it when he reads it
> interesting and funny squiggly drawings alphabet, each letter with a meaning of it's own
> undead language, has an entire country dedicated to it's modern counterpart, can be readily understood and interact with natives even though he's learning the ancient version
> inpooooot method chad, has the best language course ever devised in history (aka Aleph with Beth) right off the bat for a delightful learning
> likes Hebrew because it's the language of the Israelites, the chosen people of God, also admires the proud history of Israel and it's constant struggle for freedom and self-determination
> language of Judaism, the religion of Jesus
> not only can SHOCK the natives, will also get major respect from all your compatriots for being able to write their name in Hebrew letters
> will eventually get a jewish girlfriend

>>21892681
> This deserves a meme

>>21892722
>latin cuck seethes with a basedjak

>>21892232
Do it on the side, it's better to spread your efforts through time

>>21892681
Can you really learn Hebrew by only watching Aleph with Beth?

>>21892722
>>21892743
>Gee golly willickers, this calls for a new meme!

>>21892825
It depends on what you mean by learning Hebrew. You'll need to go through their study schedule which involves more than just watching the videos.

>>21893007
>You'll need to go through their study schedule which involves more than just watching the videos.
What do I have to do

>>21893013
Just open one of the learning schedules and you'll see the details
https://freehebrew.online/resources/

It involves watching the same videos many times, pronouncing the words, writing the alphabet letters, reading the transcript of some videos twice, doing the quizzes.

>>21889508
There's a scansion practice website out there. It's much better than doing printouts.

>>21893202
>t. zoomer

Does anyone know where I can find an English-Ancient Greek dictionary? either an online tool or a pdf.
I can find plenty of Ancient Greek-English but none of the other way around

>>21893582
Are you sure the ones you’re looking at don’t actually have it both ways? For instance, I have a little Cassell’s Latin dictionary where the first half is Latin to English and the second half is English to Latin. But it’s not very apparent by looking at its title that it does both.

>>21893692
The latin ones I have do indeed but the greek ones I have do not.

How is John Milton's Latin poetry?

>posthumously kills /clg/

>>21893202
>There's a scansion practice website out there
Link?

>>21881508
i would be interested in reading nepos or caesar. eutropius is fine too.

>>21893751
he's really opening up the throttle ch. xvi, anoni..
>Italia inter duo maria interest,
Italy lies between two seas,
>quorum alterum, quod supra Italiam situm est,
of which one, which is situated above Italy,
>mare Superum sive Hadriaticum appellatur,
is called the Superior or Adriatic sea,
>alterum, infra Italiam situm, mare Inferum sive Tuscum.
the other, situated below Italy, the Inferior or Tuscan.

>>21894710
> ch. xvi
Hardest chapter before the infamous poetry chapter at the end of the book. Keep it up.

>>21893582
LSJ online has both, including not few english->greek idiomatic expressions

This is mostly a question of English: what is the difference between "he lives" and "he does live"? D'Ooge clearly distinguishes those two and I don't see a difference in meaning, just in emphasis. But I'm an ESL. Can someone who speaks English natively help?

>>21894987
> Can someone who speaks English natively help?
I'm not a native speaker, but I'll try regardless: "He does live" confirms something said earlier. This is more important in Latin, which lacks a word for "yes" and instead commonly repeats the verb for confirmation:
> Does he live in this city? He does.
> Habitatne in hac urbe? Habitat.

>>21894987
I think the difference is easier to see with other verbs, e.g
he eats cabbage
he is eating cabbage
he does eat cabbage
the first can most often have an iterative/frequentative meaning, i.e "he" does this often, not necessarily something "he" is doing in that moment
the second has a more continuative present aspect, something that is definitely happening as the speaker is talking
the third as the other anon said carries a contrast with something previously said

>>21894782
I don't know what LSG is

>>21895024
>>21895103
Thanks anons for your explanations. But the thing is that this idea of confirming something said earlier or carrying some contrast does not really make sense in the context it is used, which is the question "where does he live?" (picrel). I don't even know how he wants me to translate this, "where does he do live?" perhaps.

>>21895191
The "1" is above the "habitat" in the question, not above the "habitat" in the answer, and question does indeed translate to "Where does Sextus live". So yes, it's really not used in a confirming sense here, the "does" is just a quirk of English grammar.

>>21895204
I can accept this as an answer but then D'Ooge's remark seems so trivial. He would be basically saying: "remember than when translating this question to English you have to use the auxiliar verb 'to do'" which is obvious. I thought there was something more advanced going on.

>>21894987
>I don't see a difference in meaning, just in emphasis
A difference in emphasis can be a difference in meaning. Compare "I did do that" and "I *DID* do that!" In the second case, there's clearly extra/different meaning implied. The implication is that the person speaking is responding to some doubt, possibly unreasonable doubt. The extra meaning could be written "I did, and I'm annoyed that you are even asking whether I did (because it implies I'm incompetent)" or "Yes, I did, and I'm annoyed you're asking fifty fucking times, didn't you hear me the first time" etc.

That's what the other anon means by referring to an antecedent situation. "He DOES live" becomes "(yes,) he does indeed live," i.e., it implies the thing being said was somehow in doubt in the preceding conversation/situation.

However here >>21895191 I think it's just a neutral meaning like >>21895204 says.

>>21895209
It's important because things that would be conveyed with spoken emphasis, word order, etc. in Latin only map onto English equivalents imperfectly and English specifically requires an auxiliary verb for emphasis and/or contrasting/concessive clauses (including uses less frequent today; cf. "I do declare"; "I DO go there, JUST not that often"; "DO you take this woman to be your lawfully wedded wife?" "I do (so take her)").

Technically it is just grammatically necessary to specify that the Latin verb by itself can have this meaning in English, rare in ordinary language, but still part of its "official" structure, and which used to have more use beyond rare cases these as well. Like in poetry. Helpful link:
https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/588827/whats-the-grammatical-logic-of-emphatic-phrases-like-i-do-eat-sushi

>>21895244
I forgot to mention, if you want to see its different functions in older English, think Elizabethan:
>He liveth there.
>He doth live there.
These are two subtly different meanings. The emphasis is being used to highlight that the main/non-auxiliary verb is in some way doubtful or meant in a specific way that requires attention. You can see how it becomes modern "I DID see him, I JUST didn't tell anyone" concessive style "do." The basic logic is the same but it's more stereotyped to stark concessiveness.

Probably the only remnants of this kind of "do" in English are comical archaisms like "I do declare."

>>21895166
https://lsj.gr/wiki/Main_Page
it's basically the quintessential resource for english speakers

βήτω οὐρανὸν εἴσω

>>21894274
For actually doing scansion, go to hexameter.co. For a fully scanned text (a cheat sheet or reference tool), go to hypotactic.com

>>21890576
Esoteric masturbation for /x/-files

>>21895366
That sucks. Just use Logeion or even Perseus. The CGL has already superceded the LSJ.

>>21898323
pretty sure those don't have English->Greek like LSJ

>secundus
nary a more deceptive little guy in any language

>>21892099
>We might even have more Chinese and Sanskrit learners who are at least intermediate than L&G intermediate learners.
我可看尼

>>21899073
》尼
你*

>>21898122
Elaborate.

>>21899073
I think in this context they're talking about Classical Chinese.

>>21899257
that's 马马虎虎 to me (also if you wanna get into classical you should definitely learn some Canto)

>>21899073
>>21899103
>>21899257
>>21899269
Tell me how to learn Classical Chinese. NOW

>>21899479
first learn the strokes
then learn the radicals
then grind the hanzi
then read the 四大名著

here you can start with this:
https://youtu.be/VYBl5rjjtKU

medieval europeans like newton or leibniz wrote their works in latin, so I assume they, obviously, couls read and write it and also speak it. when it comes to speaking, do
>we
have an idea or know how they were speaking it? I mean, were they using the ecclesiastical pronunciation? I could be wrong but using the classical pronunciation seems to be a more modern thing (besides the ancient romans themselves using it)

>newton
>leibniz
>medieval

>>21899756
oh hey I can actually answer this one

due to french blah blah blah french pronunciation blah blah blah but there was a movement in 16th century oxford to get people to speak in classical pronunciation which was started by the work "De recta Latini Graecique sermonis pronunctiatione". It was later forbidden and then unforbidden nearly 2 decades later, but the interim period really messed up the pronunciation. this ended up forcing a very english sort of pronunciation with regard to diphthongs. so essentially they would have spoken a bastardized version of the classical pronunciation

>>21899756
Each one used the traditional pronunciation from their country. There are a lot of ways of pronouncing Latin, not just the reconstructed and the so called ecclesiastical (which is actually just the traditional Italian pronunciation).

Which one of the female Latin/Greek YouTubers is the cutest?

>>21900308
Satura when she had that post-partem glow

>>21898323
>superceded
no

>>21899269
You don't have to learn any modern Chinese language to learn Classical Chinese, just like you don't have to learn a Romance language to learn Latin.
>>21899479
Apologies for the delay, I was sleeping.
Personally I started learning with this textbook:
https://archive.org/details/introductiontoli00branuoft
It's targeted primarily at those who have some basic grounding in Mandarin, but you don't have to know Mandarin to use it (I didn't when I read it); it does use Wade-Giles, which may take some getting used to. r/classicalchinese's wiki page also has some other links to resources:
http://old.reddit.com/r/classicalchinese/wiki/
(Full disclosure: I compiled this page.)

>>21899479
>>21901562
Oh, yes, I'll also add that Lexicity has an Old Chinese section:
http://lexicity.com/language/oldchinese/
Lexilogos also has some Classical Chinese resources mixed in with their general 'Chinese' resources:
https://www.lexilogos.com/chinois_dictionnaire.htm
http://lexicity.com/language/oldchinese/
And Lexi

>>21901562
>>21901572
I recommend looking through the available resources and deciding which suits you best; everyone's different.

>>21900308
Seconding for Satura Lanx. I DEMAND a wholesome and fertile librarian wife.

>>21901572
/oldchinese/
What's the difference between Old Chinese, Classical Chinese, and Literary Chinese?

>>21901807
Old Chinese is the spoken language of the roughly Shang to Han dynasties. Classical Chinese is the written form of Old Chinese, and Literary Chinese that plus later imitations of written Old Chinese used as a literary language (at least in the narrow sense, often 'Classical Chinese' and 'Literary Chinese' are used interchangeably). It's not known exactly how closely Classical Chinese resembles spoken Old Chinese, but in my view it's probably basically the same language, just a bit more concise and polished.

>>21898820
Logeion does have this feature now via its Retro tool. Also, see Morpho. All of this is packaged with Logeion.

>>21902191
nice, didn't know about Retro
I mean still, does it have example phrases like LSJ? just now I kept missing the point of this expression "τοὺς αὐτούς ἐχθροὺς καὶ φίλους νομίζειν" other than the most literal sense, LSJ comes to rescue with an example usage that makes it clear https://lsj.gr/wiki/%CF%83%CF%85%CE%BC%CE%BC%CE%B1%CF%87%CE%AF%CE%B1_%E1%BD%A5%CF%83%CF%84%CE%B5_%CF%84%CE%BF%E1%BD%BA%CF%82_%CE%B1%E1%BD%90%CF%84%CE%BF%CF%8D%CF%82_%E1%BC%90%CF%87%CE%B8%CF%81%CE%BF%E1%BD%BA%CF%82_%CE%BA%CE%B1%E1%BD%B6_%CF%86%CE%AF%CE%BB%CE%BF%CF%85%CF%82_%CE%BD%CE%BF%CE%BC%CE%AF%CE%B6%CE%B5%CE%B9%CE%BD

>>21901562
Do you crossdress all the time, or do you dress normally when you go to the grocery store?

>>21903055
jesus christ non-roman urls are so fucking ugly

/clg/, what practices do you recommend for learning Latin? Are there any specific apps or books/workbooks for beginners that you would recommend? I've used Duolingo for a while but find it not in-depth enough to truly understand the language.

>>21903699
I don't latin well but I read the first couple chapters of "Lingua Latina per se Illustrata" and that was pretty good. Maybe start with that?

>>21903699
repoasting another anon's good comment

Can anyone reccommend some good resources for Biblical Hebrew?

>>21904240
my lord's diary desu

>>21903699
LLPSI
Wheelock's Latin if you want more explicit grammar study
Keep a journal to practice composition

By the time you finish the LLPSI series you'll be ready to start working with normal Latin texts

>>21904375
w-what did Mr. Wheelock mean by this

>>21903699
Duolingo is trash
Any book for learning Latin, and I mean any, even the hated ones, will teach you better than Duolingo, aka language candy crush.

>"I'm using duolingo but I think I need a textbook, which book should I pick?"
Everyone above me is a fucking idiot for replying to that no life whackjob who posts the same comment in every single thread just to start some shit. If he gets no replies then he'll usually try at least 2 or 3 more times by just rephrasing the same question. This has been answered enough times already. Stop giving this guy oxygen. He already admitted that he thinks learning classical languages is a waste of time, so he comes here just to derail the thread for his own amusement.

>>21904240
https://freehebrew.online/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Kxj7JIHIHM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEJYWpZV2TM

>>21905222
It sounds like a pretty typical question for a beginner, and this thread is for discussing classical languages and asking questions. And how exactly would asking this sort of question "derail the thread"? What specifically makes you think this is the same person asking the same question rather than multiple beginners asking for an incredibly common sort of advice? Schizo

>>21905222
>derail
it's free bumps, chill

>>21903699
>specific apps
put the phone down zoomer

>>21903699
>prepare text, notepad, pen or pencil
>read
>when you come to a word or phrase you do not understand or recall write it down
>keep reading
>try to comprehend as much as possible
>stop at end of section (length determined by you)
>now go through dictionary and define all the words on your list
>also look up grammatical terms, consult references, review textbooks if necessary
>reread section referring to notes only when necessary
>repeat
You may have to read a section 5 or 6 times but eventually you will not need notes and will comprehend the language itself.
The above method is guaranteed to work. It separates Greek/Latin from English as much as possible and keeps you focused on one aspect at a time. It also provides a handy reference of your progress over time and illustrates your weak points. If the same word keeps showing up in your notes then you should focus on learning it.

>>21905294
>It also provides a handy reference of your progress over time and illustrates your weak points
Any more specific advice on how to track your progress besides the wordlist?

>>21905882
For vocab? no.
As for general skill passages should be easier. Go back and reread something, while you may have forgotten some words it should be noticeably easier even if a long time has passed.
Try sight reading a different work or author. If you struggle that's OK.
If you stick with it and keep reading and studying you will get better over time. Not sure how to 'track' that.
I guarantee you will not improve by f5ing on 4chan. You can ask as many questions about learning as you like or you can just learn. 30 minutes a day devoted to study will take you much farther than worrying about specific learning methods, books, ways to track progress etc. There is no one perfect way. Just read.

>clg wasn't shit for 12 hours
tam laetus sum ut fors mentulam meam non praecidam

>>21888646
hello frens which textbook for ancient greek is the most enjoyable? i had great pleasure studying it at school and am going to pick it up again

>>21906809
luv me my Athenaze, simpel as

>>21907062
What makes it better over these 3?

Okay, so I've got to a point where I know the grammar and core vocab pretty well. But how do I wean myself off being dependant on a dictionary every time I read? I keep on reading but I can never make the jump to reading fluently.

>>21907071
idk, didn't read those

>>21907109
why u love athenaze

>>21907123
well paced approach, cool story, never felt overwhelming, still solid grammar reference
I'm talking about the Italian version btw

If the personal pronoun "mei" can't be used to show possession, what about its adjective forms mei/meae? Is it good Latin to express an endophoric construction like "this x of mine" as:
>ea amicula meae
this mistress of mine

>>21907202
nah, not in good classical Latin, even in Romance that idiomatic expression simply doesn't work
you'll find such use only in verbs taking the genitive, e.g memento mei

>>21905237
I'm not the same anon who called him out, but it's obvious that the posts are made by the same guy, and it obvious that you are him too.

>>21907103
>Okay, so I've got to a point where I know the grammar and core vocab pretty well. But how do I wean myself off being dependant on a dictionary every time I read? I keep on reading but I can never make the jump to reading fluently.
This has already been answered here: >>21905294 and here: >>21905965

>>21903617
I usually dress androgynously, occasionally specifically femininely; I can't think of the last time I crossdressed (i.e. wore a specifically and unambiguously masculine article of clothing).

>>21908385
How's the Esperanto going?

>>21890907
אתה ישראלי? The video about russian olim was really funny, I love Keren Mor especially in Kupa Rashit.

>>21892681
Hebrew Chads unite!!!
צ'אדי כל העולם התאחדו!!!
What's Aleph with Beth?

>>21908396
Fine, thank you. Why are you doing this?

>>21908443
Different guy, I was just seeing if you were who I thought you were. Didn't mean to interrupt your discussion with the other guy.

>>21903699

Why do deponent verbs exist? I'm used to them now but they're weird and I haven't detected any logic or pattern behind them.

>>21908786
see the Greek middle voice

>>21908786
PIE supposedly(though not sure how strong the argument is for supposing a later development of the passive) had only active and middle voice distinction, middle voice meaning an action which has some "object" so to speak but its effect also affects the subject, many middle voice verbs ended up deponent in Latin, and you'll notice they often have this characteristic of not being purely transitive in a way
e.g Latin sequor is a direct cognate with Greek hepomai with the same meaning inherited directly from PIE, but I guess in the latter language the distinction is more clear given the three voices

Ancient languages are for turbo nerds that like role playing in real life. I will just learn modern languages and read all the modern translations.

>>21909928
Learning multiple modern languages to read ancient works is incredibly retarded. All that will do is give you the interpretation of different translators, which is no different than reading multiple translations into the same language. Fuck whoever translated the Iliad into French, just read Lattimore, Fitzgerald, Fagles, Pope, etc.

>>21908679
If you're saying you thought I was the Esperanto tranny, I am.

>>21909928
I will just rest on the laurels of English ubiquity and assume if it isn't already translated it doesn't exist.

would trying out llpsi be a good idea if you still have a vague idea of the language from latin classes in middle school and are already used to 4 of the 5 cases because you're german?

>>21912193
btw, i'm not really against using a textbook
i just want to avoid a situation where i feel like i'm just trying to remember grammar the way i do information as that has lead to some headaches in the past (not talking about latin)

>>21912193
its a fucking book just download and look at it yourself

>>21912344
You're right. I previously checked out the first 2 chapters and thought it was pretty easy, so I imagine I'd only be able to tell if I went through quite a lot of it and wanted to hear what people on here thought before spending some time checking it further out. But in the end I will probably end up reading through it as supplementary material at least anyway so I'm going to find out if it's worth my time at that point.
I just wanted to know if it continues being that easy while still going through all of the (basic) grammar (at least by the end of the second book) as that would make the whole thing very painless for me.

>>21909928
>Ancient languages are for turbo nerds that like role playing in real life
Yes, and we will outbreed you. You mad?

>>21909928
>>21910306
After you start learning an ancient language you realize how baby tier easy learning modern languages is

>>21912604
I think many have said there are some "bumps" along the road so to speak, you should read the story until you get to a point you'll be reading the book as it's supposed to be, e.g reading and learning in context

>>21908417
>What's Aleph with Beth?
Only one of the best free online language courses so far in human history
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEJYWpZV2TM
It could only be perfect if they did something like the Mormons do with intense immersive training but online somehow

>>21912604
there's a companion book that explains the grammar of each chapter if you get stuck

>>21912193
>>21912604
Get Reading Latin by Jones and Sidwell. It's written for people like you specifically. Mature beginners and people who have had some Latin in the past and need to refresh.

Anyone here studying classical chinese?

>>21913049
I can't stand that book writing "parvus" as "paruus"

>>21913451
>I don't care if lowercase "v" instead of "u" is historically inaccurate and anachronistic, its more comfortable for me to read and makes the experience less confusing!
>NOOOOO you can't write "j" instead of "i" for words like "Iulius" or "Ianuarius"! I don't care if it's more comfortable for you and makes the experience less confusing! It's historically inaccurate and anachronistic!
Latincels are about as consistent as my bowels.

>>21913571
>historically inaccurate
No one says this who has done any study of palaeography whatsoever

>>21913571
>Latincels
Latinxcels*

>>21912715
What's so special about ancient languages, just the absence of media and native speakers to talk to?

>>21913606
They wrote it as a V-like shape in some contexts, but there was no correspondence to whether it was a consonant or a vowel like there is in our usage.

>>21913169
Hello, I'm studying Classical Chinese. I can invite you to a Discord server for it if you like.

>>21914153
this is some van with free candy shit

>>21914308
kek

>>21914308
I assure you there's nothing suspicious about the server, and anyway I didn't start it.

>>21913571
Oh no, meanwhile Anthony looks like a YES chad.

>>21912708
But hasidim speak also modern Hebrew(nearly all of them). אתה חסידי?
>>21912733
Seems interesting. I don't need it, because I'm teaching Biblical Hebrew rn, but I'd love to find something similar for Aramaic (biblical or Talmudic).

>>21914131
Go ahead and learn Quechua, Swahili, and Wolaitta. Go talk to those folks while I read Hesiod.

>>21915422
I don't understand how this response is relevant- I'm asking what makes ancient languages special in regards to difficulty of learning.

>>21915188
> I don't need it, because I'm teaching Biblical Hebrew rn, but I'd love to find something similar for Aramaic (biblical or Talmudic).
They have a sister channel for Koine, so I hope they'll have one for Biblical Aramaic one day as well, even if it's still years away.

>>21916141
>>21916141
>biblical aramaic
Does it really need it's own channel? I mean I understand if you are going all the way to learning Imperial Aramaic or even Jewish Babylonian/Palestinian Aramaic for the Talmud. In the Bible you only have one book with Daniel and then some parts of Ezra. How many unique words is that?

>>21916520
An Aramaic channel wouldn't have to be on the same scale as the others, would just be nice to have some spoken comprehensive inpoot.
Regardless, even the 100+ videos they have on their Hebrew channel are still far, far short of addressing even the entirety of the most common vocabulary.

>>21916639
> comprehensive
comprehensible I meant, ofc

>>21916639
>Comprehensible aramaic
This guy looks like he's doing that
https://www.youtube.com/@bibhebrew/videos

Also-
It's not really comprehensible input but the guys who do the Daily Dose of Hebrew/Greek/Latin also have an Aramaic channel. They basically break down verses. I guess if you want some help it's useful, but not exactly what you were looking for.

>Hebrew
https://www.youtube.com/@dailydoseofhebrew819/
>Aramaic
https://www.youtube.com/@dailydoseofaramaic5983/
>Latin
https://www.youtube.com/@DailyDoseofLatin
>Greek
https://www.youtube.com/@DailyDoseofGreek

>>21916662
>https://www.youtube.com/@bibhebrew/videos
> Immersion Ugaritic
What a madman (in a good way). Thanks. Still too early for me to take up another language, but good to know there's Aramaic content out there.

>Hector breached into the camp

>>21916683
I like his Akkadian videos. I'm studying Akkadian, but I don't like it that much.
I feel that learning "forgotten" languages is waste of time in most cases. If someone learns a modern language, they can communicate with native and non-native speakers of this language.
If someone learns a dead but still used language (like sanskrit, Latin, Old Slavonic etc) they can read texts written in those languages, and they can start a polemic with them by writing a book in this language.
However "forgotten" languages are not only dead, but they are not important for any living culture, and there could be no polemic with the text. There are academic debates, but only from the perspective of an outsider.
Does anyone agree with my perspective? I still think that learning Akkadian is fun, I just think I could be learning a modern or sacred language in the same time (I love Semitic languages, so I think Amharic/Ge'ez would be a better choice).

>>21917627
You should try Syriac.

>>21915854
It certainly didn't sound that way. It sounded like you were stating that ancient languages have no appeal, unlike modern languages.

>>21917734
>It certainly didn't sound that way. It sounded like you were stating that ancient languages have no appeal, unlike modern languages.
He's trolling. It's this one guy who trolls the thread everyday. He's incoherently contradicting himself because he's not actually trying to make sense. He blatantly insults everyone by saying we are "turbo nerds" wasting our time and then acts like he didn't do anything. Just ignore him and stop giving him oxygen.

>>21917761
>He blatantly insults everyone by saying we are "turbo nerds"
This is a board dedicated to the discussion of literature, and we somehow stand out especially as turbonerds? Good lord

>>21917772
There are a few of these refugees from 'other boards' that come to /his/ to talk about haplogroups and /lit/ to talk about movie adaptations of sffg novels. When people don't take their bait, they jump into individual threads and feel left out of the conversation so they just shitpost.

>>21917627
>Ge'ez
Is there even anything worth reading, that isn't related to Christianity, written in it (I mean stuff that isn't just translated from Greek)? Also, isn't it only used by monks as a liturgical languange these days and might as well be dead if you're not planning on hanging out with a bunch of orthodox monks? It looks pretty cool, but I feel like you'd get even less out of it than Akkadian considering the smaller corpus.

>>21914131
>What's so special about ancient languages
Lack of material for Comprehensible Input, no natives to speak to or hear from, few if any things to use the language for and usually completely different from anything your heard or read before

>>21916141
They said they're still years away from finishing their Hebrew course so yeah, at least 3 years away
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8GfIhf3lXQ

They do cover verbs but do they cover all the verb forms? If so they would have finished all you need to get started
https://www.youtube.com/@AlephwithBeth/search?query=verb

>>21916639
Vocabulary isn't the biggest obstacle, you acquire vocabulary simply by reading and listening. The biggest hurdle really is learning the alien structures of the language. Say a language has 1 million different words but only 5 cases and 3 verb types. If you got the cases and verbs really well but only say 200 words, you could easily start inpoooting with native content.

If agartha is real as well as hollow Earth, what would languages would most likely be better understood by the inhabitants there in the underground?
>>21917627
I think forgotten languages would turn out to be quite useful for my question

>>21917734
I would have thought it was clear by context since it was in response to a comment specifically about the difficulty of learning ancient languages vis-a-vis modern languages. Sorry my wording wasn't clear enough.
>>21917761
I think you're confusing me with someone else. I can't recall ever calling someone a 'turbo nerd'; I wouldn't consider that an insult.

>>21918443
What about the ones for which such material has specifically been made?

>>21918718
>Comprehensible Input
>What about the ones for which such material has specifically been made?
Inpoooot dorks never have an answer for this.

>>21918718
>What about the ones for which such material has specifically been made?
Those are as simple to learn as any modern language, you just need time like every native learner to acquire the language. What ancient languages even have such material? I only know of Hebrew, Greek and Latin, but where are the Old Norse Comprehensible Input courses? There isn't even an Icelandic CI course. Where is the Sumerian CI course? What about the Aztecs language whose language name I don't know? And so on

>>21918738
>Inpoooot dorks never have an answer for this.
What are you talking about grammar cuck? The more content for inpooot the easier a language is

>>21918752
>What are you talking about grammar cuck?
You mean CHAD
>What about the Aztecs language whose language name I don't know?
Nahuatl

>>21918752
>where are the Old Norse Comprehensible Input courses?
And yet, somehow, people still manage to learn Old Norse

>>21918774
>And yet, somehow, people still manage to learn Old Norse
He doesn't get it, don't bother.

>>21918774
>And yet, somehow, people still manage to learn Old Norse
>>21918780
>He doesn't get it, don't bother
You don't get it, dumbasses. It's obvious you can "learn" a language through memorizing the grammar, but you will never be fluent in that language unless you somehow manage to find a way to inpooot and even then trying to learn grammar before the inpoooting would make the process extremely hard.

I didn't say it was impossible to learn a language with CI courses, but it is impossible to acquire a language without CI.

And to answer the anon, there is a very good CI resource called being born in Iceland since Icelandic is very similar to Old Norse, what I said is that there isn't a CI course online.

You can bet your asses no native in history ever acquired their language, specially an ancient language, by studying grammar

But keep deluding yourselves thinking you know the language while you translate it to English and from English inside your head

>>21918817
>You can bet your asses no native in history ever acquired their language, specially an ancient language, by studying grammar
>>21918817
The fundamental misunderstanding is that you people don't differentiate learning a native language and learning a secondary language. You also fail to distinguish between 7 IQ infants who shit on themselves trying to learn how to ask for their moms tits vs a competent adult trying to learn a language alone in their bedroom. The idea that you have to mimic a baby learning their native language when you are learning a second language as an adult is just nonsensical.

>>21918817
I agree CI and ouput is absolutely essential in order to acquire a language, I don't think you're that fucked if you start by learning to translate from your target language though. I can hardly remember a time where I wasn't fully fluent in English, but I must've been translating in my head for the first few years until I got enough CI and just started thinking in it directly. Learning the grammar first is only going to hinder you if you forever force yourself to analyze every single component of every sentence you ever read instead of just inputing as much you can once you have the basic grammatical structure in your head and upon which you can rely until you have fully acquired the language. I can tell you with 100% certainty that I knew more about English grammar at 12 than I do now and yet my ability in the language is a lot higher than it was back then. I frankly don't think it's possible to really skip that step at all; you can, at most, minimize how long you've got to be at that stage if you can deal with just learning through input rather than having a logical grammatical structure to rely on.
Any adult who has already acquired a language isn't going to need nearly as long to learn a second/third one as they may think. You already have a lot of experience when it comes to language acquisition and your brain is far more developed than that of a child's; using "a child's methods" is going to be 100x faster now than it was as an infant.

What's the best pronunciation to read Ancient Greek in? Erasmian? Actual reconstructed Classical Attic? Reconstructed Koine? Modern?

>>21917761
You're right. Thanks for the reminder.

Today I begin Wheelock's Latin :)

>>21918488
> Say a language has 1 million different words but only 5 cases and 3 verb types. If you got the cases and verbs really well but only say 200 words, you could easily start inpoooting with native content.
No way, unless your idea of inpooting is struggling through sentences by looking up every second word.
LLPSI part 1 covers all conjugations/declensions and introduces around 2000 words (a superset of the DCC list), and even then you're BARELY ready to read an annotated Caesar, one of the easiest authors.
For modern languages you might have some point, because at least you can watch children cartoons, which technically are native content.

>>21917627
>Does anyone agree with my perspective? I still think that learning Akkadian is fun, I just think I could be learning a modern or sacred language in the same time (I love Semitic languages, so I think Amharic/Ge'ez would be a better choice).
Hi, it's Ethiopianon. Amharic and Ge'ez are fairly distant from each other. Tigre and Tigrinya are living sister languages of Ge'ez. Because Amharic, while being a Semitic language, exhibits a lot of Cushitic influence, expect it to be more challenging.
>>21917882
>Is there even anything worth reading, that isn't related to Christianity, written in it (I mean stuff that isn't just translated from Greek)? Also, isn't it only used by monks as a liturgical languange these days and might as well be dead if you're not planning on hanging out with a bunch of orthodox monks? It looks pretty cool, but I feel like you'd get even less out of it than Akkadian considering the smaller corpus.
Yes, it is a dead language, but there is plenty of stuff outside of translations of Greek. There are Muslim books. There are Arabic and Syriac Christian books in translation (all via Arabic). Although fewer in number than other languages, there are native Ethiopian works, including chronicles and saints lives. There are translations of Arabic secular material too.

To both of you, I would say that Akkadian has a suitably large corpus, and that's only counting the stuff in museums. There's more than enough to occupy translators for the rest of our lives. The Epic of Gilgamesh got me into Semitic studies, and one day, I hope to learn Akkadian. For me, Ge'ez was a worthwhile language to learn and one that I continue to work on. That may not be the case for everyone, but more people really should learn the language.

>>21919282
>For modern languages you might have some point, because at least you can watch children cartoons, which technically are native content.
200 words is a bit low even for stuff like that. It's literally just one page of vocab. It'd be a struggle to understand much of anything without pausing every few seconds and looking up some words.

>>21919288
What resources are there to learn it? Would you say knowing some spoken Tigrinya would help? Could I brute force it by learning to speak/read Tigrinya and make my way through one of the few academic grammar books? I grew up hearing a lot of it, but never bothered outputting much so I can understand spoken conversation pretty well as long it doesn't pertain to anything complicated like politics.

>>21919296
They said 2000.

>>21919343
The original poster said 200, I said even 2000 is barely adequate except maybe for children cartoons, the guy you're replying to said that 200 isn't enough for that either (and I tend to agree).

>214 posts
>rehashing grammar v input, again
>same questions as every thread
>no one even attempted >>21889508
gg /clg/

>>21918822
>The fundamental misunderstanding is that you people don't differentiate learning a native language and learning a secondary language
Yes

>>21919145
>I don't think you're that fucked if you start by learning to translate from your target language though
You are
https://youtu.be/yW8M4Js4UBA

>Learning the grammar first is only going to hinder you if you forever force yourself to analyze every single component of every sentence you ever read instead of just inputing as much you can once you have the basic grammatical structure in your head and upon which you can rely until you have fully acquired the language.
It's not that studying grammar may hinder your language acquisition, it's also that it does absolutely nothing to help your language acquisition. You think leading grammar did anything to you but you just acquired the grammar intuitively through CI. Learning grammar was a complete waste of time.

>I frankly don't think it's possible to really skip that step at all
In medieval times when people would illiterate, do you think people need to study grammars to learn their language?

>>21918822
>You also fail to distinguish between 7 IQ infants who shit on themselves trying to learn how to ask for their moms tits vs a competent adult trying to learn a language alone in their bedroom
We don't, we look for the best CI instead of being like babies who have no choice

>>21919282
>No way, unless your idea of inpooting is struggling through sentences by looking up every second word.
The point of inpooot is to NOT look ANY word, you force yourself to understand through the context

>>21919553
this is retarded

>>21919296
You wouldn't struggle because ssince you know the structures you can recognize them and infer the meaning, inpoooting would be massively easier

>>21919442
I'm not a latin cuck

>>21919560
You seriously never did it? And you call it retarded? Yes, that's how comprehensible input is supposed to be, you actually acquire the language if you try to understand through context and figuring it out by yourself without translating anything to your first language.
https://freehebrew.online/why-our-method/
People who do not do this always have problems acquiring the language. They will keep thinking what they need to say in their first language and then translate it to the second.
You don't really see how it could work until you try it yourself. In the beginning you don't understand most of, but if you're watching the right CI content, with a repeated watch you will understand more and you will actually remember the meaning of what you heard.

>>21919564
The point is that 200 words are too few to infer anything in random native content. Sentences look like this to you:
> I xyly yx and then I xyz, but yxz zxy xyz.
Even though you knew more than of the words of this sentence, you have now idea what is happening.
Real comprehensive inpoot happens at around 95%, and even then you often run into situations where the central word of the sentence is the one you don't know and subsequent sentences hinge upon understanding the meaning of the current one.

>>21919581
>The point of inpooot is to NOT look ANY word, you force yourself to understand through the context
Explain the purpose of a single language dictionary, say Merriam-Webster or Oxford. If context alone is enough then dictionaries wouldn't exist.
>watching the right CI content
>watching
>content
zoom zoom

>>21919194
depends, up to your taste really, not like there's many people you'll be talking to, unless it's something to do with Orthodoxy maybe
I'd say for mnemonic purposes either reconstructed or Erasmian is best simply because it's closest to 1to1 sound correspondence with the alphabet, unlike the more modern iotacistic pronunciations where you have multiple letters and diphthongs all sounding /i/
maybe Erasmian is a good middle ground since you don't have those aspirated mute consonants which many find hard to pronounce
I try to go for a ~500BC pronunciation

>>21919288
Hi, it's so nice to meet another anon interested in Semitic languages. I've read that Amharic and Ge'ez are different from each other, I've mentioned them together because I've considered learning one of them.
Is the Cushitic influence on Amharic visible in grammar, or is it only in the amount of words borrowed into Amharic?

I know that Akkadian has a decent corpus, the problem for me, is that it was forgotten. When I read OT in Hebrew, I know, that the book inspired countless people, and it will continue to inspire in the future, I can learn whole passages by heart, because I see spiritual depth in them. Even if I'm pronouncing it in so-called Yerushalmi pronounciation, I still know that this particular style is important to some people. The same with any sacred language. However Akkadian is dead, and no one speaks it. I try to pronounce it distinguishing long and short vowels, and pronouncing emphatic consonants as in Arabic (yes I know that Ge'ez pronounciation would be better). I also don't like the fact, that scribal commentaries to Akkadian texts were shallow, if their civilisation would have lasted 500 years more they'd create something deeper.
I still think that Akkadian is a great language, but I think it's better to learn modern languages before. Especially Aramaic, as it may die in a few decades if we don't help them.

>>21919588
>The point is that 200 words are too few to infer anything in random native content. Sentences look like this to you:
You're not supposed to get CI from native books, go for children's books if you want your CI to be text, otherwise watch cartoons

>Real comprehensive inpoot happens at around 95%
Obviously not, it happens at 30% and of course 0% since that's how babies learn

>>21919591
>Explain the purpose of a single language dictionary, say Merriam-Webster or Oxford. If context alone is enough then dictionaries wouldn't exist.
For advanced words, to train your pronunciation and to improve your writing, not to acquire a fucking language what kind of false equivalence is that? I barely used a fucking dictionary to become fluent in English, it was all inpoooot

>>21919876
>> comprehensive
I keep using the wrong word. Normally, this wouldn't be a problem, because everyone in the discussion knows that I mean comprehensible input, but you evidently don't, because: yes, you have to comprehend the input for it to count as comprehensible input, and 0-30% is too little to comprehend even the basic meaning of a sentence.

>>21919891
>and 0-30% is too little to comprehend even the basic meaning of a sentence.
You don't need to comprehend sentences, you comprehend words first

>>21919900
You know what, this is getting too stupid even for a discussion on a Cushitic gold carving forum. You do you, if you feel consuming thousands of instances of
> I xyly yx and then I xyz, but yxz zxy xyz.
gets you closer to learning the language, then carry on.
I'm sticking with graded readers until I only encounter an unknown word in every other sentence (i.e. every twentieth word or so, which is the 95th percentile) in native content.

>>21919985
>I'm sticking with graded readers until I only encounter an unknown word in every other sentence
You realize this is just comprehensible input like I was talking about and if you want to be consistent with what yous aid tus far you should forget graded readers and go study grammar books?

>>21919876
>The point of inpooot is to NOT look ANY word
>For advanced words
too high on your horse to see your own contradictions
>I barely used a fucking dictionary
but you did use it

>>21920027
No, the entire discussion was about when you can realistically expect to make the jump to native content, and graded readers clearly aren't native content. Someone put the threshold 200 words, whereas I'm saying that he's off by at least one order of magnitude.
When you're claiming that knowing 0-30% is just fine, you're arguing for that ridiculous low threshold, not for graded readers, because that's exactly where the "graded" part comes in: to prevent learners getting overwhelmed by unknown vocabulary.
NO ONE was arguing against CI.

Any book recommendations on PIE?

>>21920559
a while ago I read(not even sure if all of it) Martinet's 'Des steppes aux océans. L'indo-européen et les "indo-eutopéens"', should be a decent intro

>>21919442
>rehashing grammar v input, again
Whenever I tell people not to take the bait, I'm told it's a free bump so who cares. I give up.

>>21920975
it's /clg/'s law, every ~4-5 threads there's a chimpout about G vs I, then it pipes down, don't let it get to you

>>21888646
anyone studying Hittite? I have an absolute love of reconstructing old Hittite pronunciation on the basis of Indo-European. Anyone have any good books of historical Anatolian morphology? I’d love to add it to my collection

>>21921044
You picked a bad day to ask a serious question

>>21921063
Christ, and here I was under the idea that /lit/ was ever a board of quality.

>>21921108
It's basically impossible to steer the thread back to a real conversation once the shitposters successfully bait grammar and inpoot autists into arguing. You'll just have to wait until the next thread spawns.

>>21921124
These threads are doomed from the start with newfags always mindlessly asking what textbook to use instead of just looking it up.

>>21921139
>These threads are doomed from the start with newfags always mindlessly asking what textbook to use instead of just looking it up.
That's what I used to think, but it's clearly just one guy fucking with people. Occasionally maybe it is a genuine question. But it's pretty clear when the thread is actually productive that someone who can't actually contribute pulls the pin on a grenade and tries to take the whole thread with him since he feels left out.

>>21921139
Sometimes, it's reasonable to ask for textbook advice, you know, when you're trying to learn Hittite, but certainly not Latin and Greek. Inb4 next thread when people are shitposting about Hittite.

>go to thread on /lit/
>ask which book I should get
>entire thread gets triggered and derails with arguments
The absolute state

>>21888646
Which version of 1001 arabian nights should i read?

What would be the most "literal" etymological decomposition of the word inductio/induco, as in the root for induction meaning to make inferences from observing cause and effect?

Let me give an example. Deduction seems straightforward, where de-duco can be read as literally "pulling away from", which is an apt metaphor for what deduction does when we use it. We "pull" a result from a given case and rule. But in- seems a lot more complicated than de- to render an easy "literal" metaphor for induction. Any thoughts?

>>21919310
I'm not sure if you are asking me about learning Ge'ez or Tigrinya. I would expect knowing some spoken Tigrinya to be a tremendous help to learning any Ethio-Semitic language. If you're asking about Ge'ez, I know of many learning resources. If you're asking about Tigrinya, I know less, but I might be able to connect you with someone who knows more. If you want to take a Ge'ez class this summer, I can help you out with that too.
>>21919860
>Is the Cushitic influence on Amharic visible in grammar, or is it only in the amount of words borrowed into Amharic?
I know next to nothing about Cushitic languages, but as I understand it, the Cushitic influence on Amharic extends beyond the vocabulary level and into grammar.
I am somewhat worried about the death of Neo-Aramaic, but I think liturgical Aramaic will remain in use for centuries to come. The really big concern with Aramaic is the destruction of Christian and pagan cultural history by Islamic extremists—book burning, violence, and destruction of monuments. Another big problem is that Syriac studies is filled with a bunch of people who don't actually know Syriac. A few years ago, Lucas van Rompay wrote an article on the state of Syriac studies in which he gently encouraged people to learn Syriac, and I am told that there were nasty articles written in response, complaining that he is ableist.

>>21921670
lead/pull in/on
it's that simple and every meaning is easily derived from this
lead into court
lead into my mind
pull in(on) me
lead (you) in(to) - assume
Induction is when a premise leads you into a general assumption.

>>21921694
>Lucas van Rompay wrote an article on the state of Syriac studies in which he gently encouraged people to learn Syriac, and I am told that there were nasty articles written in response, complaining that he is ableist.
This type of thing is what is killing Classics and the Humanities in general

>>21921756
Absolutely. Just see SCS Annual Meeting 2019 Q&A.

>>21920066
>When you're claiming that knowing 0-30% is just fine, you're arguing for that ridiculous low threshold
I'm just stating what I heard from someone who actually learned Japanese to a near native level
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeOmc1nRGG4

If you learned a language as hard as Japanese like he did, then ok I'll consider what you said. So far my experience tells me he's right and that you never learned any second language to fluency. In fact, your method so far (grammar shit) is utter garbage and what is actually making you learn is just inpoooting
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8JK8W8dBxk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2i8AzjxwhSU

>>21921968
>I'm just stating what I heard
from some nobody on youtube
kek

>>21921968
If you guys want to convince people that you are right about something, then you should stop citing turboautist weebs and e-celebs from YouTube or Reddit. The lack of self awareness is not a good look.

>>21922049
>from some nobody on youtube
Bro you're delusional
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJG9kpqTRmU

Keep wasting time with pointless shit like memorizing grammar and vocabulary when anything you acquire just comes from inpooot in reality.

Show me ONE single person that has become as fluent as this guy has using YOUR method
>>21918822
>>21919145
>Learning the grammar first
in ANY language

YOUR method only creates poor idiots like this one, if you aren't him yourself that is
>>21907103
Learning about the language IS NOT (MEMORIZING grammar rules and "core" vocabulary instead of just inpoooting them naturally) the same as ACQUIRING the language

This garbage method is the reason people stay years at language schools and university without being able to use a lick of the language

>>21922300
>Keep wasting time with pointless shit like memorizing grammar and vocabulary when anything you acquire just comes from inpooot in reality.
You sound like a Christian who's constantly telling people that they are going to burn in hell if they don't listen to you. Why don't you just enjoy your method and leave everyone else alone. Nobody cares about religiously following bug eyed incels with manga pages taped to their wall.

>>21905294
>now go through dictionary and define all the words on your list
>also look up grammatical terms, consult references, review textbooks if necessary
Pointless garbage, the only thing that is actually doing anything is this
>You may have to read a section 5 or 6 times but eventually you will not need notes and will comprehend the language itself.
Grammar cucks are delusional time wasters

>>21922314
You are angrily replying to the only person in this thread that can actually read Greek at a high level.

>>21918758
No, I meant cuck. Even ancient languages are learnt through inpoooting
https://www.academia.edu/90538213/Toward_a_Principled_Communicative_Methodology_for_Teaching_the_Biblical_Languages_McQuinn_2017_

>>21922312
>>21922319
>You are angrily replying to the only person in this thread that can actually read Greek at a high level
>read
Oh yes, the high level "reading" of leaving your dictionary nd open and your grammar and your textbooks for every other word or so

>tfw you use large amounts of input combined with blocks of explicit grammar study

>>21922345
You have a serious problem, either your dedication to shitposting or substantial autism.

>>21922426
based

>>21922450
What is normie doing here?

>>21919553
I've said this before, people tend to overcorrect in the direction of "don't translate at all" because of how pants-on-head retarded the methods used to teach classical languages in the past couple centuries have been.

>>21919815
What do you think is the easiest pronunciation to find audio recordings of texts in?

any tips for vocab?

in my classes I'm absolutely killing it with grammar and translation, but my vocab is incredibly weak and I can't find a solution to it. I've tried anki, quizlet, all that shit and it never sinks in and just becomes frustrating to the point where I abandon even trying for weeks at a time

>>21923327
>>21905294

>>21922426
This is officially known as the Ranieri Grammar method, in case you didn't know.

>>21923327
Read this
>>21922323

>>21923342
It is also known as a complete waste of time. You don't need to study a single second of grammar to acquire a language.

perseus has been fucked up for a couple days. really annoying.

>>21923599
It certainly isn't going to hurt you to study grammar constructions for 30 minutes after receiving hours upon hours of input. If you literally believe that there is no benefit to seeing how a language functions while also using it then there is nothing to come from arguing with a person such as yourself

>>21923599
Grammar study can help if it's used as a supplement to comprehensible input and not a replacement for it.

>>21923898
>>21924158
>feeding the troll

>>21923898
>If you literally believe that there is no benefit to seeing how a language functions while also using it then there is nothing to come from arguing with a person such as yourself
There is a benefit to understand how a language functions, I'm just stating it will not help at all with language acquisition.

To put it very simply, learning grammar is to language learning what learning automobile engineering is to driving. Learning how a combustion motor works will not help in any way to make you learn how to drive.

What you grammar cucks do and I'm completely against it is using grammar as a placebo you take when you're not willing to accept ambiguity and not understand anything for a while. The problem is that this not only creates a bad habit of using your first language too often, but also you are not using the most powerful learning mechanism which is autonomous discovery. With this you either never become fluent or your take much longer to become fluent with the minimal inpoooting you do.
>>21924158
Yes, as a supplement that won't help you acquire the language. If you enjoy lingusticis for it's own sake though it's good to study grammar

>>21924168
I'm trying to save the retards here countless hours and prevent people from becoming like this anon
>>21907103

and you call me troll

>>21924224
Your English is dogshit.

>>21924305
I don't proofread myfucking shitposts on the internet you moron. I'm a tested C2 level English speaker.

>>21890213
As I continue to read about NENA, I have found some Jewish Neo-Aramaic that is younger than the Zohar. Take a look at Yona Sabar's Academia page.

How do I get a mesopotamic gf brehs?

>>21921670
would be useful to also know when did it start having this specific philosophical use, in the more abstract sense of "induce someone to" it's already classical

Would learning modern greek help with Koine? I want to learn both and will probably end up doing Modern first, but does it really make that much of a difference?

>>21924934
No. Even though Koine is technically simpler than the language used in writing that came before it, it's still way more complex than modern greek.

>>21923138
haven't explored much of it, it's basically not that important other than to get an initial idea of what you should be hearing in your head
on the greek wikisource you have for instance many recordings of modern greeks reading even homeric texts with modern pronunciation and completely missing the meter, but what's the point then?
then you have some genuine attempts at reconstructed pronunciation and reading of texts, but not that many in my limited experience
overall though most people who study it seem to use the Erasmian pronunciation, which is essentially wholly intelligible with the reconstructed one and viceversa
https://www.youtube.com/@triodostrivium

>>21925086
>many recordings of modern greeks reading even homeric texts with modern pronunciation and completely missing the meter
Greek meter is quantitative. Eeeta is not quantitatively different from ayyy(lmao)ta; both are long. The only reason why they are not reading in meter is because they are ignoring it / don't understand it. It's simple to read in iambic pentameter, but dactylic hexameter is another story. Thus, the Modern Greek on Wikisource neglects the meter. That's probably not the case in a college classroom.

>>21919194
The Lucian pronunciation.

is every r in latin rolled?

>>21927700
in the classical period IIRC yes, though I think some have raised doubts about whether it was always trilled or maybe sometimes tapped or some close variation

>>21927821
I can't roll R's to save my life. Will conversing with my Mexican gf and having her teach me it through Spanish help?

>>21927974
>I can't roll R's to save my life
To be honest, the moment I stopped trying was the moment I was able to do it. Basically most people fail because they try to intentionally move their tongue in a rolling fashion and people who make videos explaining this don't do a good job. What's actually going on is that your tongue is loose and you aren't trying to do anything with it at all. You are just blowing air past it and it flaps like a flag in the wind. Think of the flapping sound the flag makes, that's a rolled R. Try more air and less control of the tongue and it will roll on its own.

>>21928040
I finally started getting it after realizing this. Every person that tried explaining it to me focused way too much on the tongue touching the ridge of the teeth and how I'm not supposed to move it intentionally at the same time but never said anything about the simple fact that it's pretty much just blowing out air while leaving one's tongue relaxed.

>>21921748
Thank you anon. That was aptly put. I can see a clear subject focus (deduction) vs. object focus (induction) dichotomy here too thanks to your explanation. Greatly appreciate your take!

>>21928710
>I finally started getting it after realizing this. Every person that tried explaining it to me focused way too much on the tongue touching the ridge of the teeth and how I'm not supposed to move it intentionally at the same time but never said anything about the simple fact that it's pretty much just blowing out air while leaving one's tongue relaxed.
YouTube pronunciation videos can be frustratingly over complicated for absolutely no reason. I try to imagine how I would explain my own language's pronunciation based on the position of the tongue or teeth and it seems like something that would be easy to fuck up unless I had studied some linguistics and phonology. And even then, all that technical knowledge is basically useless if you can't break it down for the layman.

>>21889312
What a retarded post

It's sad how little ancient literature actually survives to the modern day. Sure, most of it probably sucked, but it would be interesting to read.

I just learned that the Satyricon in its original form was likely an epic longer than the Bible, which is crazy, considering how substantial just the surviving parts of it are

I wonder how much this can be pushed back and still attempt a recitation, not sure why this book represents both the lost /w/ and /j/ with digamma though

>>21931872
Greek looks pretty. We had a gay little incel (just atrocious physiognomy) at our high school who was studying it by himself a bit. Everyone bullied him. I wonder if he frequents this thread.

>Latin translator also puts the translation in the same meter
neat

If you can't read this you are a beginner, any other examples of easy texts in your language?
https://la.wikisource.org/wiki/Origo_Gentis_Langobardorum

>>21931872
Can you provide a source on digamma also being /j/? I've heard and read about it being /w/, but I can't find anything about it being /j/. If you aren't mistaken (nor are the originators of this hypothesis), then that would be incredibly interesting from a linguistic perspective.

What byzantine literature is worth reading?

>>21933734
>Can you provide a source on digamma also being /j/?
that's what I'm also asking, I don't understand why the author used the same digamma sign for what should be some sign for the sound /j/ from what I understand, I may be wrong
e.g in the first line he writes "πηλεϝιαδαϝ'" but while the first digamma is certainly /w/ from Πελεϝς, the second should be a /j/ from PIE *āsyo => Greek *ājo => āo => eō in the standard Iliad, hence the elision in Αχιλεϝος, so translitterated and in meter something like pē-lew-i-a-dā-ja-kʰi-lew-os

>>21932825
I think that's common for translations of poetry. It makes sense- it's part of the intended effect of the original.

boomp

>>21936068
New thread soon anyway

What should I make of the Aorist third person passive imperative in the first three lines of the Lord’s Prayer?

>>21936251
what do you mean? I mean it's certainly neat, since Latin itself translates it with a iussive subjunctive construction

>>21936264
In Greek, “hallowed be thy name” reads differently. What are some other ways to render this in English more accurately?

>>21936282
I guess "to hallow" could sound archaic in general but at the end of the day I don't think it is less accurate than e.g "to be(!) sanctified" since ἁγιάζω essentially means that, to make(-iζω) ἅγιος(holy, sacred) and IIRC as a verb it's wholly biblical and post biblical, not found in previous literature

>>21936312
especially considering that 'sanctified' is how it's translated in romance languages (french sanctifie, spanish sanctificado)

NOVUM
>>21936988
>>21936988
>>21936988

.