/lit/ - Literature

>>21885673
I was enthralled by Marx’s ideas when I was about 17 or so. Then i actually read him in my 20s and suffice it to say, I am no longer a Marxist

>>21885673
>duuude... what if these guys who could barely pass high school ran every industry in the woooorld?
who seriously falls for this shit?

When I started to actually read them and found out that all of them thought revolution would primarily take place through national socialist movements in each individual country, and that nations were normal, permissible, and even vital to the international worker's movement, and should not be dissolved in a worker's revolution

Marx:
>Poland has demonstrated in 1863 and further proves every day that it cannot be done to death. Its claim to an independent existence in the European family of nations cannot be refused.
>Wherever the working classes have taken a part of their own in political movements, there, from the very beginning, their foreign policy was expressed in the few words – Restoration of Poland. This was the case with the Chartist movement so long as it existed, this was the case with the French working men long before 1848, as well as during that memorable year, when on the 15th of May they marched on to the National Assembly to the cry of “dive la Pologne!” – Poland for ever! This was the case in Germany, when, in 1848 and ’49, the organs of the working class demanded war with Russia for the restoration of Poland. It is the case even now; – with one exception – of which more anon – the working men of Europe unanimously proclaim the restoration of Poland as a part and parcel of their political programme, as the most comprehensive expression of their foreign policy.

Engels:
>There could, indeed, be no two opinions as to the right of every one of the great national subdivisions of Europe to dispose of itself, independently of its neighbours, in all internal matters, so long as it did not encroach upon the liberty of the others.

Lenin:
>Victorious socialism must achieve complete democracy and, consequently, not only bring about the complete equality of nations, but also give effect to the right of oppressed nations to self-determination, i.e., the right to free political secession. Socialist Parties which fail to prove by all their activities now, as well as during the revolution and after its victory, that they will free the enslaved nations and establish relations with them on the basis of a free union—and a free union is a lying phrase without right to secession—such parties would be committing treachery to socialism.

>Just as mankind can achieve the abolition of classes only by passing through the transition period of the dictatorship of the oppressed class, so mankind can achieve the inevitable merging of nations only by passing through the transition period of complete liberation of all the oppressed nations, i.e., their freedom to secede.

Everything you have been told by commies about internationalism is wrong and unorthodox. Marx, Engels, and Lenin were all perfectly fine with individual, highly self-conscious nations continuing to exist through and after the proletarian revolution, and even saw these as necessary vehicles of the revolution.

>>21885673
The question implies that they were right, which is objectively wrong, so this question is unanswerable

never years old. How old were you when you realized he was the good guy?

>>21885673

>>21885673
>Marx arrived in London as a political exile in 1849, expecting to stay in the city for a few months at most; instead, he ended up living there until his death in 1883. His first few years in London were marked by dire poverty and personal tragedy—his family was forced to live in squalid conditions, and by 1855 three of his six children had died. Isaiah Berlin describes Marx’s habits during this time:

>His mode of living consisted of daily visits to the British [Museum] reading-room, where he normally remained from nine in the morning until it closed at seven; this was followed by long hours of work at night, accompanied by ceaseless smoking, which from a luxury had become an indispensable anodyne; this affected his health permanently and he became liable to frequent attacks of a disease of the liver sometimes accompanied by boils and an inflammation of the eyes, which interfered with his work, exhausted and irritated him, and interrupted his never certain means of livelihood. “I am plagued like Job, though not so God-fearing,” he wrote in 1858.

>Marx was, by 1858, already several years into Das Kapital, the massive work of political economy that would occupy the rest of his life. He never had a regular job. “I must pursue my goal through thick and thin and I must not allow bourgeois society to turn me into a money-making machine,” he wrote in 1859. (In fact, he later applied for a post as a railway clerk, but was rejected because of his illegible handwriting.) Instead, Marx relied on his friend and collaborator Friedrich Engels to send him regular handouts, which Engels pilfered from the petty-cash box of his father’s textile firm—and which Marx promptly misspent, having no money-management skills whatsoever. “I don’t suppose anyone has ever written about ‘money’ when so short of the stuff,” he noted. Meanwhile, his boils would get so bad that he “could neither sit nor walk nor remain upright,” as one biographer put it. In the end, it took Marx two decades of daily suffering to complete the first volume of Das Kapital—and he died before he could finish the remaining two volumes. Yet he had only one regret. “You know that I have sacrificed my whole fortune to the revolutionary struggle,” he wrote to a fellow political activist in 1866. “I do not regret it. On the contrary. Had I my career to start again, I should do the same. But I would not marry. As far as lies in my power I intend to save my daughter from the reefs on which her mother’s life has been wrecked.”

>>21885707
shouldnt have invaded kuwait

I lived in both worlds. Eastern Europe and USA. Eastern Europe was destroyed by western neoliberal "shock therapy" and their insistence on mass privatization, austerity, and rampant corruption

>>21885729
Kuwait was stealing his oil, boomer

>>21885774
no they weren't
Saddam probably wanted to have a strategic location vs Saudis
dude was a warmonger, I admit Iraq was probably better with him but he was retarded
gaddafi can rip tho, he was much less retarded

>>21885673
They are half right, but not in the way that modern faggot shitlib marxists think

>>21885746
damn if only you had been there to experience starving to death at gun point this thread would be so much better

>>21885784
Fuck you you fucking "lazy genius" internet faggot. Oh I bet you have some fucking pastel color palette pixel art touhou avatar and you type in all lowercase. Wow! Languid university student faggot. Cool, you were in AP classes and thought you were the cool quiet guy? Fucking computer eunuch faggot. Oh do we all just enjoy your repressed sheltered cynicism and aloof humor. Fuck. You.

Needless to say, the United States is a decaying empire basking in it's former glories and imperial conquests crumbling under divisive sociopolitical tensions and significant wealth gaps, hyperinflation, unaffordable housing, debt/wage slavery, and other issues. A constant flow of "content" and technological stimulation is our drug of choice, our soma, our opium of the masses. We binge-watch our lives away and pacify ourselves, while the world burns around us. It is by design, as all these pieces of content and media are products of the culture industry: funded, platformed, promoted, and designed by large corporate entities and members of the bourgeoise. Living in the United States makes it painfully clear the flaws of unfettered capitalism. Marxist Leninism was flawed, but primarily in terms of its dogmatism and authoritarian stances. Democratic socialism is the best middle ground. I do also greatly respect Dengism and Chinese socialism, and see it as a pragmatic approach to Marx's evolution of economic development. China offers a vision for the future that is more hopeful and invigorating than the feeble, limp liberal order dominated by the United States and it's ideological neo-puritan zealots.

>>21885796
based

>>21885681
You don't have to be a "Marxist" to recognize that he was right in the things he built on from Adam Smith. Capital colludes to benefit capital interests at the expense of labor. Unskilled labor is manipulated to bare subsistence. Markets, particularly regarding real estate and natural resources are cornered and monopolized to artificially increase profit margins. This is all in Adam Smith, Marx just expanded on it and wrote on the implications of these things.

>>21885812
Yeah, and those things are gleaned by anyone with functioning eyes. They're not remarkable.

>>21885814
>Marxism is wrong
>But the stuff it gets right, everyone already knows!
labor theory of value insists upon itself.

>>21885673
I didn’t and they’re not. Read Belloc

>>21885707
I didn’t

>>21885673
bretty sure they were left

>>21885673
I realised they weren't dead ends. There's still more progrress to be made in figuring it out. Fascism needs more tests.

I don't think Marx was *fundamentally* an idiot, he just had all the worst tools: materialism, Hegelianism, labor theory of value. Even if you had a Michelangelo make a sculpture for you, if you only give him a rusty spoon and a dildo to work with, you're not going to get an impressive result. And Marx was no Michelangelo.

>>21885673
They're neither right nor wrong, merely a manifestation of social and economical trends in the industrial era, trends that were present for as long as civilization has existed.
The eternal struggle between the haves and the have nots. There is absolutely nothing profound about their works.
Although, I understand that you at least need some form of moral justification for engaging in wealth redistribution.
>They have more than us and it's just not fair
doesn't quite cut it, although that is the core of the argument.
Anywho, take the Godpill you Godless commie fucks.

>>21885746
they are both atheist societies, ie both crap

>>21886395

A theology without social liberation of the poor and exploited is no theology at all. The New Testament is not about who is right or wrong, but about what is the right, similarly socialists don't just want redistribution of wealth or some veangeance on the rich, but fair and livable wages and were their lifeblood isn't leeched off through predatory debt. In this sense I think the good book is quite clear :

"Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me." - Matthew 19:21

>>21886395
Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”

25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment? 26 Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they? 27 Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature? 28 And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin

Jesus was the king of redistributing wealth from the rich to the poor you colossal hypocrite!

>>21886446
Jesus was the king of advocating charity, not of stealing from others to redistribute their possessions as you see fit.

>>21886448
Render unto Caesar. If the political ruler says to hand over your wealth, Jesus says to do it. Plus, it's about whether it is moral to redistribute wealth, which Jesus says it is.

>>21886446
This doesn't read like redistributing wealth at all. It reads like a warning against material greed and hording that will throw everyone into misery (which we can observe on a global scale). It's advocating for living within God's creation and not above our means, rather than trying to exploit it.

>>21886448
>>21886460
Jesus had very strong opinions about state interference! Despite all the psalms ranting about the wickedness of rulers who neglect the poor, he was very firmly of the opinion that they should NOT tax the rich ANYTHING!!!!!!!

>>21885725
>starved his children to death
Why do we listen to this scum again?

>>21886467
Can we get a list of Jesus' explicit quotations about taxation and government redistribution?

>>21885673
Lenin was the most correct one of them all, Marx was genuinely retarded with his whole "the workers will hold the power" and "the revolution will be started and lead by the workers" and his prediction that the material conditions would just get worse over time which would inevitably bring the revolution all over the world, instead the Bourgeoisie actually became more humaine towards the working class.

Lenin not only understood that the revolution can't come from the working class, you need well educated men who are wealthy and have resources to teach the proles, as you know, they are really dumb.

Lenin also understood that for the system to "work" the workers can't be completely in control and they can't choose how thinks are going to work, again, they are quite dumb, proles are genuinely subhuman.

Where Lenin failed, is that no human can be in control.
All these ideals and fantasy lands that all these men envision can only be possible in a society in which man no longer is the subject holding the power, once in 1000 years when we create our AI overlords and the effort humans have to put into work is severely reduced in all fronts, only then will all this shit be possible, until then, you will have to do with Social democracy.

>>21886395
The quote could be a nice critique of Christcuckery as well. Its legacy is nothing but a mountain of corpses. It really shares the same history with Communism.

>>21886443
>but fair and livable wages
You think you do, but you don't.
You're living in the wealthiest, most technologically advanced time in human history. In comparison to the Gracchi brothers, you're living like a king, but that's still not good enough for you.
>Yeah well bro, you're literally comparing me to plebs from ancient Rome why aren't you comparing me to Bezos
That's actually my point, if you're complaining now you could have Bezos tier "fuck you" money but then you would find it still wouldn't be enough.
The problem man has always faced isn't a social, political or economical one, but a spiritual one.

>>21886521
>Its legacy is nothing but a mountain of corpses
When critiquing something, one should endeavor to show why it's bad, and what a preferable alternative is.
You're unable to do so however.

>>21886528
Don't respond to bait.

>>21886532
I'm too autistic to not respond on /lit/ and /his/.

>>21886528
>show why it's bad,
I think the mountain of corpses really entails it. It caused countless religious wars, prosecutions, forceful conversions, and corruption. I guess they build some schools but that point can be also given to the commies.
>what a preferable alternative is.
I would pay to know. But definitely not Chriscuckery or Communism.
I hope it clarifies it. Have a good day

>>21886554
>I would pay to know
So you don't really have an argument.
Good to know.

>>21886558
You will note that I prophetically predicted that you would be unable to do so, here:
>>21886528
>You're unable to do so however.
Atheists are the most midwit of debaters, on Allah fr fr no cap.

>>21886454

This when retard apologists read the bible, before that quote Jesus says that they should stop pestering him about money because Caesars image in that coin, his kingdom is not of this world , that is , its not Caesars. Not to pay tribute like a cuck to tyrant. Plus all the OT law about worshipping Mamon still applies.

>>21886558
>So you don't really have an argument.
You can show something is bad without providing an alternative. It is not as a good dunk as you thought it was. I haven't expected much from religious "people"

>>21886570
>You can show something is bad without providing an alternative
You can't, philosophically.
But you also haven't shown why it's bad.

>>21885673
>when did you realize they were right?
When my brain started leaking from my ears.

>>21886521
communist rulers usually didn't believe in God. and judging by the body counts, more people died in godless societies than Christian ones.

>>21886565
render under "Caesar" doesn't mean what you think it does, "Caesar" is vulgar latinate for "King" and since Jesus is Lord, the king of kings, that is whom you should pay tribute, not some godless ruler who might use your tax money to fund illegal wars.

>>21885673
Their criticisms of capitalism were valid. But their proposed solution was considerably worse.

>>21886591
>Words are social constructs, so "Caesar" could mean literally whatever is most convenient to my position.
kek, I love debates over scripture

>>21886687
No, it literally means “king”. But I forget, people don’t read here and don’t go outside

>>21885698
School systems across the Western world are failing to produce students that can read and write, yet alone apply any critical thinking skills, and you still think that saying someone didn't pass high school is an insult?

>>21886726
It can mean whatever people want it to mean. Could it be the literal ruler who literally uses the literal word "Caesar" as his title? NO! It actually secretly meant the opposite of Caesar, it meant Jesus, the super real actual Caesar. See how schizo you begin to sound?

>>21885673
When Marxoids stopped raiding /lit/, so never

>>21886736
>any critical thinking skills
what's that?

>>21886742
no, it fucking doesn't you monolingual retard