/lit/ - Literature

That’s a great blurb. Historical resonance I believe in the term.

>>21850300
Nietzsche's criticisms of Wagner make sense when you understand that it was all seething and coping over the inherent Christian spirit of Parsifal, and the beauty of said work. Wagner had gone in one direction, and Nietzsche another, but in Parsifal it may be that Nietzsche was forced to consider if his path was the wrong one, and such a realisation was too terrible a realisation for him to contemplate.

>>21850320
>it was all seething and coping over Cosima and Wagner being a Chad and Nietzsche an incel NEET*

>>21850320
Calling Wagner Christian’s because of Parsifal is like calling Schubert Christian because of his Ave Maria. Nietzsche hated romanticism for the same reasons Mishima and Carl Schmitt loathed romanticism. Siegfried though makes for an unsatisfying character in Wagner, who has to make evil driven by scorn of woman’s love and goodness driven by reception of woman’s love, thus the actual point of Siegfried saving the gods by being outside the law, a man beyond it, is totally collapsed and made irrelevant: the neutralization of the ring inexplicably destroys the gods, with any real basis (their power preceded the ring and did not depend on it, now that the natural order is restored they perish), indicating this is just a pretense for an epic that in the end is about man’s moral and spiritual purpose being a woman and his lack of those being a lack of a woman

>>21850618
You've misunderstood everything. A woman being a symbol for the anima, or 'eternal feminine', isn't a literal statement about needing a woman to be a good person. Siegfried is explicitly shown to be good before he receives Brunnhilde's love and after he rejects it. The very culminating point of the entire Ring, his ultimate heroic action wherein he willingly chooses death, comes while he has rejected Brunnhilde. Wotan realises this in itself, Siegfried's freedom, is the higher good than the prolongation of his world-order, which is clearly very flawed. This is shown in the crucial scene with Erda in Siegfried. Without the death of the Gods, the end of this civilisation, the Ring would be a romantic bourgeois tale about the monarchy learning a lesson, as it was originally intended when Wagner was a follower of Hegel. But Wagner followed his artistic intuition, and came to extremes of far greater import:

>Instead of the words —

>"A fateful day is dawning for the gods;
>And wilt thou not deliver up the ring?
>Then be assur'd thy race ere long shall end —
>Thy noble race — in shameful overthrow."

I now make Erda say merely —

>All that is — ends:
>A fateful day dawns for the gods:
>I counsel you beware of the ring."

>We must learn to die, and to die in the fullest sense of the word.

>[...]

>The development of the whole poem sets forth the necessity of recognising and yielding to the change, the many-sidedness, the multiplicity, the eternal renewing of reality and of life. Wotan rises to the tragic height of willing his own destruction. This is the lesson that we have to learn from the history of mankind: to will what necessity imposes, and ourselves to bring it about.

But this is just one tinge of meaning in Wotan's motives. It is also representative of familial roles. A father has to resign himself to the individuality of his son, otherwise he is not really his son.

>>21850618
>Calling Wagner Christian’s because of Parsifal is like calling Schubert Christian because of his Ave Maria.
"Why, if I did not feel in my inmost soul the living light and love of that Christian faith, my works ... would be the works of a liar and an ape. My art is my prayer."

>>21850618
Early Wagner may not have been overly Christian, but later Wagner very explicitly was. But even then, he'd had such leanings since Tanhauser at least.

Nietzsche was just tsundere and, for the sake of his project, had to disavow Wagner.

>>21850320
His whole anti-German thing honestly seems like seething about Wagner. It's not like Germans in the 19th c were particularly slave moralists compared to other european countries or jews

>>21850300
so true, sister

>>21853252
What was the prompt?

>>21850300
>Every one of Nietzsche's criticisms of Wagner fail with Siegfried.
Yeah no shit? At this point he was still a Wagner fan. He only definitively turned on him with Parsifal, and even then, he admitted in a private letter to Peter Gast (or Hans Overbeck, can't remember) that its music was the best Wagner ever did. Nietzsche turned on Wagner when he fully embraced Schopenhauer (Meistersinger/Götterdämmerung onward) while Nietzsche at that point had become completely anti-Schopenhauer. Add to that that Wagner became very interested in Christianity (reading the Gospels over and over and attending mass) and it was game over.

>>21854471
Everyone gets the dates wrong. Wagner composed and wrote Meistersinger years before he met Nietzsche, and was composing the third act of Siegfried when he did. Every note of Gotterdammerung was played for Nietzsche after it was written. Nietzsche just didn't want to admit that he supported Christianity at this time. And in The Case of Wagner he criticises all of Wagner's art, on stylistic grounds, not just for being Christian.

wagner sucks balls.

test

>>21855023
Nietzsche definitely never heard Parsifal when he wrote The Case of Wagner. He only heard the prelude later, as he admits in his letter. He only had the libretto.

>>21853247
From what I read in his letters to Strindberg I think it's because all the Germans ignored his books. He felt he had more appreciators outside of Germany. Of course in a few years that would change.

>>21850320

I think "anxiety of influence" was mostly at work. You can find objections to every human product, even the greatest. He also found Wagnerites insufferable and didn't want to be associated with them, so perhaps he was trying to cancel out some of the intense praise in his early writing. He could have only faintly suspected just how insufferable the future Nietzscheans would be--maybe if he saw that he would have been more forgiving. Then there's also the masturbation thing.

If anyone got saved in the Kingdom of God it's Nietzsche, at least before the mob of anime internet Catholics

>>21855560
The Case of Wagner was Nietzsche coping with the music of Parsifal, hence the confused and torturous sense of its value. Everything written before 1887 was only about the libretto, and therefore more ideological, easier to reject as in the Op quote, because he did not feel it but only understood it.

>>21855803
It's confusing why he's so hung up about it because Nietzsche so often would advocate for chastity

What would wagner say about a man who continuously gets catfished in his pursuit for love yet he never learns and continues to seek love out on /soc/?

Asking for a friend.

>>21856790
Especially since Wagner even criticises orthodox Christianity in Parsifal.

>After which I saw a languishing wailing,
>the brothers there pining in terrible distress,
>torturing and killing their bodies.

Nietzsche missed this entirely and thought Wagner had become Catholic.

>>21850300
alright wagnerfag
im taking a deep dive into wagner over the coming months because of you

give me some high level advice on what to read
like real niche shit
more /pol/ less /mu/