/lit/ - Literature

>>21826876
Although there is scant opposition to euthanasia per se, some have urged better funding of health care, mental-health resources, and other social services to ensure that suicide-by-doctor remains a last resort. The legitimacy of this concern is underscored by harrowing news stories of disabled and disenfranchised people who have turned to MAID in part because of deprivation. In one case, a 51-year-old woman chose to end her life after years of seeking—and failing—to improve her social-housing situation, which was exacerbating her illness.

“Euthanasia on demand is the logical endpoint of a society built on secular humanism.”
But such objections don’t fundamentally challenge the principles underlying the euthanasia regime and are, therefore, doomed to fail. State-administered euthanasia on-demand is the logical endpoint of a society built on secular humanism and utilitarianism. These frameworks preclude any appeal to an absolute moral authority beyond the individual. Their ultimate expression is as a state-protected “right” to a “dignified” death. Elective death reflects the sacrosanct value placed on individual choice, as well as the utilitarian principle of maximizing pleasure and minimizing pain. All that is needed for this death to pass is a blessing from the new priestly class of medical professionals, who are now granted the extraordinary ability to look into our hearts to ensure that we consent properly.

Canada is a very wealthy country, where the majority of people aren’t in dire straits and enjoy access to good palliative care and (usually) mental-health services. But by the loosened standards governing access to MAID, it is completely foreseeable that, for instance, a well-provisioned but mentally ill child could be deemed fit to consent to her own euthanization, and die “with dignity” as a result.

Such a scenario will feel intuitively wrong to many—but how many would be able to articulate why? It may be that only by sacrificing slavish devotion to personal autonomy and utility maximization can a coherent opposition can be formulated. Until then, euthanasia rates will continue to climb as the social safety net in Canada wears thinner over the coming decades due to mismanagement and misguided investment, and as social atomization worsens with an aging and increasingly childless population.

As someone that would unironically use MAID if it were available, I oppose it for this reason. It will be government sanctioned suicide, and as conditions worsen in the first-world, and the governments grow increasingly corrupt, the new slogan will be "if you don't like it, MAID."
It will then evolve into government sanctioned murder. Vulnerable people will be convinced to pursue MAID behind closed doors, when there are options available to them.

In my opinion, the best way to determine if death is really right for the individual, is if they are willing to go out by their own hand and risk it. This is how it should be.

>>21826898
That's a whole lotta words to say "fascism."

>>21826901
Ironically, those who oppose MAID are "le fascists" seeking to "restrict liberty." We have already exceeded the limits of the fascist-liberal false dichotomy.

>>21826898
This.
Everyone has the right to die. But the state does not have the right to kill.

>>21826930
So the state can artificially impoverish you by creating a bourgeois dictatorship then once you've realised that you have a choice between freezing to death outside or getting executed in a hospital bed for being surplus labour then it's a choice? Fuck off.

>>21826981
>So the state can artificially impoverish you by creating a bourgeois dictatorship
No. You also have the right to combat the state that's trying to fuck you over.

Good Post. It's interesting to point out how acceptance of this kind of euthanasia highlights the underlying values of the society that promotes it. But other than calling the practice "slavish," what other criticisms can you level against it on a moral basis? Religious arguments never seem to resonate given that most people aren't religious at all and will just outright reject it.
The article suggests that undermining this kind of argument can be difficult. The only arguments I can think of that would attack this practice stems from absolute moral principles. But without making an appeal to religion, what else can you say other than, "I just feel like its wrong?"
Semi related, but can anyone recommend me books on moral relativism. I have to destroy my Christcuck friend in an argument.

>>21827103
This is the rehabilitation of fascism. What's the point of building a concentration camp when you can convert the entire territory of the state into a concentration camp by tracking everyone and then forcing euthanasia with financial ostracism?

>>21827157
Please stop slandering fascism by associating it with liberal fag biopolitics, fascism is noble

>>21827164
>Please stop slandering fascism by associating it with fascism, fascism is fascism.

>>21827180
Even if I am not sure of what precisely is the difference with any technical accuracy, it is incredibly misleading to imply that the same ideological and teleological core results in these two
>Pink haired, fat, castrated tranny sodomites telling people to commit suicide if they're dissatisifed with 86% of the budget going to paying for black trans-racial transfemme queer BIPOC reverse-masc boymoder murder-rape convict's trans-wolf surgery
and
>6'4 chads flexxing and building giant cathedrals

>>21827194
simulacra

None of what you're talking about actually happens outside of your screen, dumb ass. Drink your soma and shut the fuck up.

>>21826876
Right wingers will praise Schopenhauer and then be pro-natalist. Make it make sense.

>>21827454
Touch grass retard. My sister came home complaining about a porn comic that her teacher recommended to her. Specific name: Gender Queer by Maya Kobabe.
Just touch grass and realize it's not made up.

>>21827462
>books are scary

Do you know where you are?

>>21827504
>Zoophilia will never be legalized
>It gets legalized
>Children will never be given sex change operations
>Little girls have their breasts sliced off by pedophile doctors as young as 13 years old
>Boys receive Lupron, something that can in some cases cause permanent loss of testicular function and, when taken past pubertal age, leads to permanent loss of some function (volume, etc)
>Corporations will never become racist towards whites
>diversity training and pay bonuses for managers that do not hire white people
In the last case, my employer released an email one month ago saying that effective IMMEDIATELY all managers will receive a 15% reduction in pay if they hire white men. I will leak the emails, by the way.

>>21827504
>>21827536
Children shouldn't read porn. Simple as. The fact that teachers are recommending children to read comics with graphic pedophilic content is enough to say that there is a fundamental difference in the ideological core between whatever this modern "thing" we call "liberalism" is, and whatever this "thing" that rightists are trying to approach, that we call "fascism."

>>21827536
>>It gets legalized
it doesn't, no need to lie so blatantly

>>21826876
At-will euthanasia available to all people is one of the most low-effort and ethically sound possible policies given a society that already doesn't care about its people and isn't likely to start caring in the near future, and anyone who disagrees is clearly unaware of how bad suffering can really be. Comitting suicide by yourself using most easily accessed methods is always somewhat risky and difficult, especially so long as it's generally disapproved of and idiots will do everything they can to bring you back from the dead if they find you.

>>21827607
>Cows that don't produce enough milk should be shot.

This is just fascism.

>Cows that run out of milk money should be given assisted slaughter since they don't have thumbs.

This is your brain on neoliberal fascism.

>>21826876
>Lametti said that since certain people were going to commit suicide anyway, the government may as well ensure that it is done in a more “humane way.” .
This but unironically.

>>21827618
If you think I'm a fascist then give me assisted suicide so I'll be gone and won't have any influence on politics. I'm secretly just advocating for myself here.

>>21827103
This isn't an original argument, but I can't recall who wrote about it originally. Imagine any sort of person who places a burden on their family/loved ones due to requiring expensive or otherwise burdensome care around the clock, a paraplegic, for example. In spite of this, the paraplegic enjoys his life in spite of disability: he can read, have fulfilling conversation, and have intellectual pursuits that give his life meaning. However, he feels immense guilt over having his family care for him. If the option of getting yeeted by the state exists, he may take the option and end his life despite not wanting to die. Merely providing the option places a great deal of pressure on the people in these sorts of cases, let alone having a system that actively encourages it. Imagine at every single doctors' appointment, he not-so-subtly hints that killing you would be better for your family. T
his case aside, there are serious ethical conflicts and conflicts of interest with the people who are supposedly tasked with extending and saving life (doctors) being incentivized to also end it. One could easily imagine a patient in the midst of a terribly painful series of treatments which, if completed, would have end up saving their life and improving their quality of life drastically, and that the pain is temporary. But, in the midst of overwhelming pain, the patient is in a state of despair and is considering suicide: what is the doctor to do in this situation?

>>21827607
That was hot.

>>21827634
>I have a natural right to be shot in the head!

>>21827590
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/bestiality-legal-canada-supreme-court-a7073196.html

>>21827833
>one country concludes that according to its existing laws (going back decades into the past) *some* forms of besiality are legal
>this is the same as actively legalising bestiality
You're truly braindead.

>>21827851
>address one of many points
>have to move the goal posts to make an argument
>you still look like a jackass
do you feel smart?

>>21827887
The original goalpost was that bestiality got legalised. Now you're attacking me because you're fucking blind and couldn't notice where the goalpost was in the first place.

>>21827903
Beastiality was illegal in Canada. Now it isn't. Move that goalpost to Pluto and I'll still hit it.

>>21828120
>Beastiality was illegal in Canada.
It wasn't. Bestiality in the form of penetrative sex was illegal and remains illegal. Other forms weren't illegal and it remains so (because some law from over half a century wasn't written well, it fails to cover non-penetrative sex). No law has been changed, nothing has been legalised. You haven't even read the article you linked.

>>21827618
>neoliberal fascism
This bait is unbecoming

>>21826981
Sounds like a good choice to me. Better than doing nothing and be forced to deal with this misery of needing to work every day. Lenin didn't have a good argument against the scenario you proposed either just le working class should be optimistic.

>>21827701
That's the whole point, it's a difficult ethical dilemma; there is no clear answer for the doctor unless he adopts the moral principles set out by euthanasia - that it's okay for an individual to decide to die. If OP's principles are wholeheartedly adopted as he posits, then it's an easy choice for the doctor despite some clear moral difficulties. On the other hand, some cryptic but basic moral principles are violated by the same action. Even though it might seem okay through a surface level of logic, ones' intuition begs to differ. Again, I don't see how you get around this kind of appeal to popular moral sentiments without an argument appealing to universal moral principles.

>>21828280
That's exactly what it is, the end result of Heidegger injecting his ideas into continental philosophy right as the nihilistic postwar liberal consensus was emerging. This is precisely neoliberal fascism.
The issue you might be having is that nominally individualistic rad-lib nihilism is behaving in a collectivist way, but this is really not surprising whatsoever. Cross-fertilization across lib/soc/com/naz lines is inevitable, because these are all modernisms.
The ideological shift of the liberal right wing to economic conservatism / social progressivism took place half a century ago, and what you are seeing now is the most extreme progressivism - liquidation of useless eaters merged with cultural-revolution brutality - in the service of rent-seeking governments who outsource reproduction to the third world and think of their populace in terms of strict economic calculus.
What you are seeing is a pan-liberal syncretism in the end stage of late modernity. At the beginning of the modern era the question was asked, "can man legitimately direct his own fate in this world?" And liberalism was born, schismed repeatedly, thus unsurprisingly resulting in a completely merciless pragmatist world where random apparatchiks can make threads about magazine articles shamelessly appealing to might-makes-right, then shill the same perspective in posts like this: >>21827103, because they are fundamentally narcissists projecting themselves onto this giant nameless global machine, thanks to oversocialization.

>>21827457
No, not everything has to make sense. Some mysteries are better off unexamined

>>21827103
>what other criticisms can you level against it on a moral basis?
Many. Even after ignoring the whole can of worms that is allowing intellectually underdeveloped and emotionally oversensitive children to kill themselves.
Even if you ignore the fact suicidal thoughts are emotionally charged and often regretted, or that suicide in itself is an option taken mostly by the kind of hopelessness and evil enacted by society at large -things we can and should correct-.
Even if you ignore the smoking Chekhov gun of a slippery slope that is state mandated, peer-pressured suicide, murder, for no good cause.
Terminal illnesses I understand. Unescapable, unrelenting pain? Vegetative states forced to be an economic sink on caretakers? Less so, but fine, we live in hell. Even then the option should be very clearly laid out. Then again the writing is on the wall and it's very clearly a smudge of shit by Moloch's hand.

>>21828486
>inb4 appeal to subjectivity
>inb4 appeal to liberty, before countering your reply with an appeal to subjectivity, without realizing the value of liberty is subjective

>>21828486
This is what happens when Ligotti becomes mainstream

>>21826981
You forgot the intermediate step where you park your rigs in the capital and they freeze your bank accounts.

>>21826876
What the fuck? I love liberalism now.

>>21827103
You can't argue against it. You can only enact a solution, so to speak.

>>21826876
It's just the actual material reality of modern society. AI makes most of the work people do today pointless and provides no alternatives. So most of the population in the first world don't have any reason to be alive in the first place.

>>21828279
You're the one who didn't (can't?) read. He was CONVICTED of beastiality by the Parliament, but the Supreme Court overruled the conviction because beastiality isn't illegal according to their interpretation of the law.

He has been trying to warn you for years but you won't listen.
https://youtu.be/uJayMNicQNA

Why didn't you listen, anons?
https://www.youtube.com/live/w_3qMu7KJ4k?feature=share

You should listen.
https://www.youtube.com/live/GgV6uDHqUCI?feature=share

>>21826898
>It will then evolve into government sanctioned murder. Vulnerable people will be convinced to pursue MAID behind closed doors, when there are options available to them.
Not to mention that people can simply be forcibly hospitalized, pumped full of drugs, then manipulated into signing documents (or just have documents forged) that allow the government to kill them. Look up what happened to Paul Robeson and tell me this couldn't happen here.

>>21829673
https://www.youtube.com/live/t06krv57alI?feature=share

>>21827157
It's almost like the people who financed Hitler and built the death camps are the same people who run our countries now.

https://www.youtube.com/live/GtDxVdzNxxQ?feature=share

>>21826876
I mean, I'd take the option. It's also the logical stepping point of some situations. Hikki-NEET types aren't going to contribute much to society. As a semi-NEET, I will either work some low paying job until I expire or continue to leech off of my parents until I expire. Given that most suicides are ineffective, having a government program for such things seems like a decent step towards whatever the completion of this system is. It's practical, utilitarian, and helps cut the cost of the homeless and the mentally ill. Why not?

>>21829683
>It's almost like the people who financed Hitler and built the death camps are the same people who run our countries now.

>>21829673
Currently people are forcibly hospitalized and pumped full of drugs to stop them from killing themselves. It's at least comparably dystopian.

>>21828486
Requiring someone to have chronic pain before granting assisted suicide in practice means requiring that a person convince a doctor that they have chronic pain, which is often difficult and costly.

t. serious chronic pain anon who wants to die but has has found it impossible to get doctors to believe I'm not exaggerating or delusional because I'm young and look superficialoy healthy even though the range of activities I'm capable of has been severly limited

I just want safe and painless resources to be easily available so that I can do it myself. Normalfags want me to live for some reason though

>>21831608
Anon, I hope you get better. No, I won't let you commit suicide. Even if you're a communist leftyfag.

>>21827454
>Trannycore postmodernist attempts to deflect by accusing his opponent of being "tricked" by simulacra
O I am laffin

>>21833111
It's not even simulacra. It literally happens. There were rainbow dildo wearing freaks strolling down my neighborhood in 2021. There were children present.
He's a sheltered, bourgeois, discord fag that needs to touch grass and realize this shit is real.

>>21826879
This isn't very well argued

>But such objections don’t fundamentally challenge the principles underlying the euthanasia regime and are, therefore, doomed to fail.
>the social safety net in Canada wears thinner over the coming decades due to mismanagement and misguided investment

So it's not due to some logical endpoint, just mismanagement. Isn't management a logical endpoint of utility maximization? Also to keep people alive and productive?

>>21826879
Fpbp

>>21833116
He's lying to you, he knows that, and even then he definitely thinks simulacra bolster reality instead of being a fake imitation of it

>>21827457
>no one mentions Right wingers
>barge into thread and immediately throw an incel tantrum

Why are you like this?

>>21826876
Oooh like abortion for adults

>>21827590
How many times in a row can you be wrong and keep trying?

>>21826876
based, the more hwhite subhumans kill themselves the quicker the world can be free from their totalitarian autism

>>21827851
spain legalized bestiality

>>21826876
> certain people were going to commit rape anyway, the government may as well ensure that it is done in a more “humane way.”
Can't say I disagree!

>>21826879
>It may be that only by sacrificing slavish devotion to personal autonomy and utility maximization can a coherent opposition can be formulated.
This is exactly it. It will ONLY be by "sacrificing" that. No one cares about class politics anymore. No one cares to view things through the lens of us living in an interconnected system. Liberal pomo is a disease.

>>21826876
anyone got 9 dollars so i can read this?

>>21835241
or is ops post the whole article?

>>21835247
Ok I think this is the whole article so i'm just gonna go off of it.

>>21826876
this is a really stupid article and addresses none of the points of pro-euthanasia people and supports none of it's own claims. The farthest it ever goes in discussion of the other side is "they were kind of mad about a false equivalency but it is equivalent." or the brief section about how some prefer to curtail this via increasing quality of life.
The article itself is question begging it presupposes you already agree with it. There is no takeaway one can get from it other than
>liberalism is about personal choice, euthanasia is a personal choice, so euthanasia and liberalism are intertwined
which is something most people intuitively know.
I am not pro-euthanasia this is just not an interesting or compelling article at all.

>>21826876
>woman writes milquetoast conservative articles with a pseudo-marxist flair again.
how do you guys keep falling for the lasch industrial complex?

>>21827103
All the libs I know personally, despite being godless, still have the same dogmatic insistance that no one should ever die. No matter the cost of keeping them alive, no matter if they're an actual monster, no matter if they hate being alive.
It's very frustrating, because they get all high-horsed about how stupid religious people are and how important it is to be able to get abortions for any reason at any time with taxpayer money, but life is still somehow something you can't "put a pricetag on" or whatever.
Like, pick a lane. Either be a calculating materialist or don't. Hold with dogma or don't. This handwavy rules-I-made-up-matter-but-rules-someone-else-made-up-don't spiritualism is corny.

>>21835709
>liberals have a principle but it doesn't have a metaphysical figure behind it so they are retarded. Why can't they just be the caricature of them I build up in my head? No I am not going to discuss why they think that way I am just gonna get mad at them but am also mad at them for dismissing me in a similar way.

We treat dogs better than humans in their last days due to residual hocus-pocus ideologies of Christians who are no longer relevant. It's shameful and OP has sucked more dick than Rosanne Barr had had hot dinners

>>21827103
to me it feels like an extremely smarmy sect of
>I'll do it MY way
to the extreme. speaking historically it's only a rather recent development that it's considered an atrocity to kill the seriously wounded or otherwise seriously disabled. maybe I'm just schizophrenic but it seems like some sort of politically-correct game to get people to accept killing people for certain reasons under their new terms instead of the "old world" terms.

>>21827194
Basing your entire worldview off of twitter memes should qualify you for euthanasia.

>>21826876
What "end game" of liberalism, David Hume already drew that conclusion in the 18th century. Fundies late to the party once more.

>>21826876 (OP)
What "end game" of liberalism, David Hume already drew that conclusion in the 18th century. Fundies late to the party once more.

>articleposting
/lit/ has fucking hit a new low

>>21827164
The fascist cries out in pain when he insists it's not a larp