/lit/ - Literature

>>21825966
>80 years of torment
>infinity years of happiness
>NOOOOOOO THE CRUELTY

>>21825966
It is not uncommon for historical events, figures, and narratives to be retold and reinterpreted over time, often leading to varying accounts and perspectives. In the case of the figure you are referring to, without knowing specifically who you are referring to, it is difficult to provide a definitive answer. However, it is possible that different religious and cultural groups have different interpretations and beliefs about the events and character, which can lead to variations in how the figure is remembered and perceived. Additionally, factors such as cultural biases, historical context, and political agendas can influence the way a figure is portrayed and remembered. It is important to consider multiple perspectives and sources of information when seeking to understand complex historical and religious narratives.

>>21825966
Source?

>>21825983
4chan needs an AI that detects AI posts and auto-bans the poster.

>>21825983
So this is the power of the AI takeover?

>>21825979
who are you quoting?

>>21825979
>diseased mind

>>21825996
Atheists that claim God must be cruel, if he exists.

>>21826025
what?

>>21825966
>why do conmen change their con?
adaptation to survive.

>>21825966
>Life ruined by God
Not how the story goes... Anyway Answer to Job sorted this out without the cope retcons.

>>21825979
except that the story wasn't Job finding happiness in heaven, God "rewarded" him with a new family and new wealth in his old age.
>it doesn't matter that his wife and children were all slaughtered before he was issued a new wife and new children. All that matters is that Job, the patriarch of the family, got rewarded.

also, your entire premise is that there is an infinite afterlife (with no proof).
>but it's in this book, so it must be true
>oh and btw, other peoples religions afterlife are fake. What you actually think just because its in their holy books that its true? LOL, so naive!

>>21826117
yes that is exactly how the story goes. his life is ruined and then "restored" (none of his family is brought back from the dead)

>>21826120
>also, your entire premise is that there is an infinite afterlife (with no proof).
>>but it's in this book, so it must be true

this has to be a joke lmao, we are literally talking about a story from the bible where a guy directly interacts with God. in the context of the narrative, its pretty safe to assume that heaven and God is real

>>21826138
God didn't do the ruining. He merely permitted it to be ruined. The difference is crucial.

>>21826165
There's hardly any difference at all.

>>21826155
>this story that keeps changing over time proves that it's true, so we can safely assume that characters from this story are also real and haven't been altered or made up on the spot.
>lying didn't exist in ancient times.

>>21826165
God literally was having a gambling match with Satan.
Which is weird how Satan is apparently able to go back and forth into heaven and earth even after God chopped off his legs in the Garden of Eden (apparently serpents have wings too!)

>>21826199
>Missing the point this hard
I bet you smell like Spaghetti-Os

>>21826213
>if you accept the premise of the story is true then it's obvious that the contents of the story are true too. QED
i bet you're getting an A+ in philosophy 101

>>21826202
Who pushed the idea that the Snake was Satan or that Satan had his legs cut off? God literally punish an entire species of animal because Satan pretended to be one once? Is God a fucking retard or something?

>>21825966
he didn't blame god, he just maintained his own innocence.

>>21825979
Is chr*stianity just hedonic calculus with extra steps?
>heh, my life is shit but I will get le infinite sex in heavens while you burn in hell, heh ;^)

>>21825966
it's called Job, but it's not about him

The true goal of the book is to examine why good things happen to bad people, turns out the devil made him do it and if you're just patient you'll get reimbursed for your suffering eventually :)

>>21826525
the Church did. Jews did. It's in the Bible and has been one of the standard interpretations for a veeeerrrry long time. (yes, there *are* other interpretations, but you could say that about any religious topic. Different interpretations abound)
The Bible is terribly inconsistent and when society matures and wises up to the inconsistencies, the religious people alter their interpretation and go from "literal interpretations" to figurative interpretations.
It's Bronze Age brainwashing techniques the elite used to control the masses that still get used today.

>>21826025
they don't talk to him every day like me

>>21826553
>Be God
>give people free will.
>torture them because you're bored
>get pissed when people complain

>>21825979
I would have preferred to never be born at all in that case.

>>21826199
are you seriously illiterate????

>>21826604
>it's okay when God tortures people

>>21826202
In Judaism Satan is just "the one who is opposed," it's not entirely clear that Satan is an individual in the Hebrew bible.

>>21825966
>>21825966
The Book of Job is a complex and profound text that has puzzled and inspired readers for centuries. As an Orthodox Christian, I believe that the story of Job offers a powerful allegory for the human condition, and a compelling meditation on the nature of suffering, the limits of human understanding, and the ultimate triumph of divine wisdom.

From a philosophical perspective, the Book of Job can be seen as a dialogue between Platonism, Neoplatonism, and Palamism. Plato believed that the material world was a mere shadow of the ideal world of Forms, and that true knowledge could only be attained through the soul's ascent to the realm of pure intellect. Neoplatonists built upon this idea, positing that the divine was the ultimate source of all reality, and that the human soul could achieve union with the divine through contemplation and mystical experience. Palamism, on the other hand, emphasized the idea that God's essence was unknowable, and that divine revelation could only be experienced through the energies of God, which were manifested in the world.

In the Book of Job, we see these philosophical themes played out in a dramatic narrative. Job is a righteous man who suffers greatly, losing his wealth, his health, and even his family. His friends, convinced that Job's suffering must be the result of sin or moral failing, offer him various explanations for his plight. But Job rejects these explanations, insisting that his suffering is unjust and that God must have a greater purpose in mind.

In the end, God himself appears to Job and reveals the divine plan behind his suffering. Through this revelation, Job comes to understand that God's wisdom and power are beyond human comprehension, and that suffering can ultimately lead to spiritual growth and union with the divine. This revelation can be seen as a synthesis of the Platonic, Neoplatonic, and Palamite ideas of the nature of reality and the human quest for knowledge and union with the divine.

>>21826640
>Be me, an Orthodox Christian philosophy nerd.
>Decide to dive deep into the Book of Job.
>At first, it's just a story about a guy who loses everything.
>But then, I start to see the Platonic and Neoplatonic themes.
>Job's friends represent the material world, believing that good deeds bring blessings and bad deeds bring curses.
>But Job realizes that there's more to life than just material wealth and physical health.
>He seeks wisdom, and in doing so, he connects with the divine.
>Enter Palamism, the Orthodox Christian mystical theology that emphasizes the union of the human and divine.
>Job's suffering leads him to a mystical experience of God, where he realizes that God is not just a distant, aloof creator, but is intimately present in every aspect of creation.
>Job's understanding of God goes beyond the material world and into the realm of the divine, which is where true wisdom and understanding can be found.
>In the end, Job is restored, not just materially, but spiritually, as he has come to a deeper understanding of the divine.
>The Book of Job is a reminder that suffering is not just a punishment, but can be a path to enlightenment and union with God.
So, let us seek wisdom, even in the midst of our struggles and sufferings, and may we be led into the mystical union with the divine.

>>21826165
Why does God let a maliciois actor run rampant over humanity? Its not like we wouldn't suffer without satan, so why make it worse? God consistently smites down bad people in the old testament, so it isn't because of "muh free will". He made a being significantly more powerful and intelligent than man and sicced it on us.

https://youtu.be/tABnznhzdIY

Zizek explains it all

>>21825979
Heaven was not Jewish doctrine. Even if it existed back then, the Jews had no knowledge of it. That is why he ends up with material riches, not spiritual ones. The only way to justify the cruelty is lame post-hoc rationalizations.

>>21826629
and the gnostics thought the OT god WAS satan.
to your point though, if "satan wasn't an individual", then it just means God was doing it himself (we'll call it "God in a bad mood"). Which aligns with scripture:
Isaiah 45:7
>"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."
He is both AND evil. Or at least originally was thought of as such before religious people realized what a huge problem that was, when they created the satan individual (although it still doesn't entirely resolve the problems of why God is creating any evil at all, or allowing it, or gambling with Satan on the souls of humans)

>>21826700
typo
>he is both good** AND evil

>>21826696
Embarrassingly filtered

>>21826708
Nuh-uh. The real redpill is that if God is everything, then everything is good and evil does not exist.

>>21826714
Where in the hebrew bible does it talk about heaven, or about an eternal blissful afterlife?

>>21826700
The kabbalah still keeps to this belief, everything is an aspect of God.

>>21826696
yep. It's funny how Christians aren't even aware of how different Jewish sects are from Christian sects. I bet he donates money to Israel too because "Jesus was a JEW!!!!!!"

>>21826725
Enoch

>>21826725
>can't even understand the discussion
It's over for you

>>21826726
but why worship something evil? lol. I mean, kudos for Jews for at least admitting they're worshiping satan, but Christians are worshiping satan and don't even know it. But either way, why do it at all?

>>21826729
the Book of Enoch or the story of Enoch? because the story of Enoch just says "God took him". But last we heard, God is still in Garden of Eden, which is on Earth. So again, no heaven is actually talked about

>>21826729
Don't read the NIV.

>>21826731
Anon, the real sauce of it is fucking insane. You have to unironically learn Hebrew to be able to study the Kabalah properly, it's the only way (I'm doing that rn). The lore is that "THE WORD" is Hebrew, the same word that was in the beginning and every character has numbers attached to it and all kinds of meanings so you have to autistically look at every letter in the Hebrew bible and you will find hidden meanings. First of all, in Hebrew bible they don't use the word "god" they use the word "Elohim" so instead of God creating the world, it says the Elohim created the world. And the word elohim implies there's more than one god but they're also all different aspects of the same divinity. This is where the tree of life comes from, the positive aspects of god and then there is also the evil side aka the Qlipoth. There's a bunch of occult magical shit about this too about slowly traversing both trees and supposedly the Qlipoth will drive people wicked and insane if they meditate on it without being prepared. Also, ancient Jews did not believe in God as being a sky daddy. They saw him the same way the Hindus see Brahman, it's more like a collective consciousness of everything.

>>21825966
>nature is cruel
>shake your fist at the master of storms
>make things worse
>acquiesce to what you cannot control
>happier life

Imagine having no critical thinking.

>>21826749
language existed before Hebrews. If you're going to study anything might as well really go to the source, like Sumerian or something like that.

>>21826754
Aye but Hebrew is the language of the Elohim

>>21826754
>>21826756
Either way, there are hidden codes and secrets in the scriptures and you have to learn Hebrew to be able to find them. It turns into a completely different book.

>>21826725
An important passage that mentions Heaven is found in 2 Kings 2:11-12, which describes the prophet Elijah's ascent into Heaven in a whirlwind. This story suggests that Heaven is a place where prophets and righteous individuals can go after death. Similarly, the prophet Isaiah describes a vision of Heaven in Isaiah 6:1-4, in which he sees God seated on a throne, surrounded by seraphim. This passage suggests that Heaven is a place where God's presence is especially palpable and that it is a realm beyond the physical world. Other passages in the Hebrew Bible that allude to the concept of Heaven include Psalm 11:4, which describes God's throne being in Heaven, and Psalm 103:19, which declares that "The Lord has established his throne in heaven, and his kingdom rules over all."

Taken together, these and other passages in the Hebrew Bible suggest that the concept of Heaven has been a part of Jewish thought since ancient times. While the concept may not be as fully developed as it is in later religious texts, such as the New Testament, the Old Testament nevertheless contains ample evidence of the belief in a realm beyond the physical world where God's presence is especially manifest. In conclusion, a careful reading of the Hebrew Bible reveals that the concept of Heaven is present in many of its passages. From references to God's throne being in Heaven to descriptions of righteous individuals being taken there after death, the Old Testament provides ample evidence that the belief in Heaven has been a part of Jewish thought for millennia.

>>21826754
>>21826761
The reason is that secret societies have always existed in the Jewish world and the wise men who wrote the scriptures left hidden codes for only other wise men to know

>>21826199
People like you should keep reading nonfic.

>>21826749
Basically you need to traverse both the Sephiroth and the Qlipoth and you will become enlightened and be able to bend reality to your will

Read chicken Qabalah for a good introduction to this stuff

>>21826737
Book of Enoch has heaven closer to the Christian conception. But Job is the oldest book in the bible, there was no heaven then. Enoch was taken up to be with God, no place given, but Elijah was said to be in heaven. There is no other mention of people in heaven though, or of eternal reward, and resurrection is distinctly corporeal. Heaven is just where God resides, and presumably the angels.

>>21826762
Fuck

>>21826756
and the elohim are evil. So who cares?

>>21826737
Enoch is taken and shown heaven and hell (which aparrently have multiple layers) by the angels where he meets Cain and Abel and is is also shown purgatory

>>21826766
>the bible is fiction
yes

>>21826819
The Elohim is god, both his positive and negative aspects. How can something be evil when it is both positive and negative? Mix together it becomes neutral.

>>21826830
Elohim is the word used in place of "god" in the Hebrew bible. But the direct translation is actually plural for "gods" or "powers".

>>21826772
>just follow the teachings of demons and then reality will bend to your will.
>welcome to How To Be Evil 101

>>21826830
>how can something that likes blood sacrifices both human and animal be evil?
gee, it's a mystery!

>>21826867
But he also likes soft kittens and long walks on the beach

>>21826859
From what I understand you're just supposed to meditate while contemplating the meaning of each Sephiroth

>>21826888
>and then you'll bend reality to your will, like a super villain!
>and you get to pretend to be morally superior because you worship literal demons while you're at it! what's not to like!

>>21826120
his wife and children were reunited with God, dummy, their earthly suffering was ended and they were granted the highest of rewards
p sweet deal to be honest with you sempai, Job was the one who got the shit end of that stick and he was rewarded for toughing it out with a new family, a new lease on life

athiesm is the pinnacle of midwit, i fuckin swear lol

>>21826878
>demons can be really sweet once you get to know them

>>21826932
>i know this because i was there and i'm not some naive dunce that believes everything i hear.
you are a snakeoil salesman's wet dream

>>21826193
>he raped a girl
>he permitted a girl to be raped
>'they're literally the same lol'
not true legally, morally or logically, knob-end

>but muh omnipotence, muh heckin evil
imagine thinking that an omnipotent and omniscient being has any obligation to act in a manner which you, a literal bag of skin holding in meat and blood, can understand

>god is all things, a manifestation of the universe itself in it's totality he is all and nothing both good and evil

>you: wtf god is evil

>>21826941
>arguing in bad faith
anon, we're discussing a story, within the context of the story god exists (true by dint of his communicating directly with the MC) and, therefore, within the context, heaven exists
>be atheist
>too fucking stupid to comprehend even a single level of recursion
>'haha me am smrater den u'
speaking of snake oil, how many jabs you on

I dont know how christians take the OT seriously when it was written by a bunch of brainlets. A lot of times god rewards the jews with land and pussy and food. Not with wisdom or heaven or knowledge but with cows and kingdoms and lands that they are unable to hold for longer

>>21826967
>gnosticism in 2023

>>21826907
You realize that (you) are apart of god within the context we are discussing, the kabalah. You are a spark of divinity, a tiny piece of the puzzle. Are you a demon? Are you evil?

>>21826946
>imagine thinking an omnipotent being has any obligation
he does if he wants people actually want to worship him out of love. Which is what religious people claim we should be doing.

>not true legally
actually, if you stood by and watched someone get raped and did nothing, you're legally in trouble

>>21826957
anon, we're discussing a story that changes over time, thus proving that "the One True Eternal Story that never changes ever because truth doesn't change" is not actually true.
I bet you think santa claus is real too

>>21825966


The "God" character in the Book of Job is the Demiourgous, not God, the Father.

>>21826982
>rapists, murderers and pedophiles are all parts of God.
>and you're just like them even if you don't do any of that
wow, that's BEAUTIFUL anon. I'm convinced. /s

>>21827035
>and you're just like them
What?

>>21827035
Boy, you must really hate Hinduism. Should we tell him?

>>21827055
>what?
see the post here >>21826982
>you realize that you are a part of god. Are you a demon? are you evil?
He's (or You?) saying that God is evil and good, and we are a part of god, and thus "evil and good too". Which makes all evil "okay" because God we're god too. And it makes everyone equivalent to anyone else. A pedo is no more evil than a non-pedo, because we're all god.

>>21827065
>must really hate hinduism
i don't like any religion. They're sniffing their own farts at how holy and wise they are and act like idiots, condoning all sorts of evil and then calling it "normal" simply because they've been dominant for so long.

>>21826120
>his wife and children were all slaughtered
Though Job's wife was not mentioned in the latter section of the book, she did not die. With all due respect, I am skeptical that you have actually read the book of Job.
>>21826540
Revelation 21:27
>And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Heaven is in the direct presence of God. The idea that God would entertain anything sexual in Heaven is not credible in the slightest.
>>21826749
>>>/x/
You misspelled "kabbalah." Kabbalah isn't something you study, it is a method used to study and interpret ancient texts. Aside from the questionable origins of "kabbalah" your theory of interpretation is based solely on how you want to translate the ancient Hebrew, and your translation is nonsensical. If we look at Psalm 82:1 and interpret it using your personal rules of translation it would read as follows:
> The elohim stands in the congregation of the god; god judges among the elohim
By using common sense and accepted translation, biblical scholars would've rightly translated Psalm 82:1 as:
>God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

>>21827105
>she didn't die
hmm... you sure on that? Where was she then when Job was going through all that? Only his friends showed up because everyone else was dead.
And yes, i've read it.

>>21826997
anon, we're discussing the story of Job specifically, a story which hasn't changed meaningfully in literal thousands of years
the understanding of men with regards to the meaning of that story has changed, but the actual story itself is fundamentally the same as it was when it was translated into greek
stop being big mad because you're not as smart as you think you are and maybe we can start having an actual discussion

>i bet you think santa claus is real too
more real than the evidence that the jab works lol gottem

>>21825979
>give me 1000 bucks I'll pay you back a million pinky swear -t. God

>>21826987
>if he wants people to worship him out of love
>i do not understand that love is not subject to rationality
if you're autistic, you can just say that

>>21825966
but what does the quran say about him?

I am starting to think that things like Kabbalah, french postmodern philosophy (Lacan and others), gender ideology and politics turn you schizophrenic and retarded.

The ones the gods want to destroy, they first turn mad.

>>21827136
Maybe she went on vacation somewhere nice, like where my parents said my first dog went. He must really like it there as he’s never returned. Rock on Furface, have a drink from the toilet in Hawaii for me!

>>21827147
>okay it's changed, but it hasn't changed meaningfully
yes it has.

>>21827147
>more real than the jab
you mean the jab that Trump promotes?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSfeCqKty9o

>>21826640
>mfw everyone is ignoring the best post in the thread

>>21827151
if you're worshiping a demon you can just say that.

>>21826751
imagine not being able to read my post. the question is why is this easy to understand story misinterpreted by every religious institution that studies it??? don't feel bad every other retard in this thread can't comprehend simple english either.

>>21825966

Don't choose to play Minecraft and then complain about creepers, skeletons and lava. You just forgot it's a game and that you chose to play it specifically to experience and overcome hardship

>>21826982
is this satire?

>>21827216
>m-m-muh trump!
it's cute that you think i give a shit what that shitstain promotes, but it does prove nicely that you're not as smart as you think are
>>21827264
pic related

>>21827203
>makes claim
>provides no evidence

>>21827233
we all read it but none of us are smart enough to make an argument out of it

did you really expect to find honest, nuanced debate on 4chan?

>>21826696
They had heaven for YHWH and his messengers. But no idea that humans could go there.

>>21827431
It’s anachronistic. When was Plato around vs. when was Job authored?

>>21826714
How? His argument makes sense to me… There’s no way that the writers meant to suggest that some eternal, pleasurable afterlife made up for Job’s suffering since the writers of his suffering hadn’t conceptualized such an afterlife. To suggest that is literally textbook ret-conning.

>>21826199
100 IQ niggas be like

>>21827233
Its a chatgpt post

>>21827421
>i'm okay with God torturing me and sending people to hell for eternity. That's real love.

There's this cute christian girl who likes to talk about the bible each Friday for an hour. I'm the only guy in her bible group and the rest are old ladies.
She's a hardcore christian who has turned down guys for not being christian enough. She's like Ned Flanders.
I used to try and get answers out of her, but now I just shut up and listen because she's got no good answers, no good justifications, for any of the big questions about God.
Why did God fuck Job up? Because he is God, he does t have to explain shit. That's what I got out of her explanation and out of reading Job.
I really want to press my tongue against her turd cutter, but larping as a Christian is starting to wear me down. She doesn't even want to watch movies.

>>21827859
>Because he is God, he does t have to explain shit. That's what I got out of her explanation and out of reading Job.
Cuz God is top G like Top G God gets all the bitches brotha

>>21827152
https://www.islamweb.net/ar/article/170335/قصة-أيوب-عليه-السلام

>>21827859
No one will ever be good enough for her anon: she sounds like she’d only settle
for Jesus himself and should join a convent. Take the hint and move on.

>>21825983
chatJEWPT.

>>21827150

>>21825966
All abramists are mentally ill. If god told them to kill their family and themselves they would do it.

>>21827859
>Because he is God, he does t have to explain shit. That's what I got out of her explanation and out of reading Job.
Based and Truthpilled.

>>21828483
so the apologetics i tend to hear in defense of God's behavior is:
>God was just testing him to see how devout he was.
But let's look at the context and historical setting. We already know that the culture of that time was practicing human sacrifice. It wasn't like Abraham was the first person to ever be asked to kill a child, even there own child. Nor was he the last to be asked (the OT even mentions how Jews repeatedly kept sacrificing children during and after the days of Moses, long after Abraham died).
So why would God "test" Abraham in such a bizarre manner? A better test would have been something totally new and unique (like circumcision or something like that).

No, the truth is that ancient Hebrews DID use to sacrifice children to their god, just like the Jews did for long afterward (as Moses and others said). The book was later edited (much later) after human sacrifice fell into disuse and unpopularity, and switched to just animal sacrifice (because a god that likes the smell of blood is so much less macabre than a god that likes the smell of burnt child blood)

>>21827105
Why are you associating sex with filth? Are you retarded? According to Biblical tradition Adam and Eve engaged in sexual intercourse whilst they were in the Garden of Eden whilst they were still in a state of spiritual perfection prior to eating from the tree.

>>21828483
If reality demanded it you would. You're too deranged from media programming to understand anything, you'll always pretend what's being said is something you could never possibly relate to purely because you identify as someone who doesn't relate to any of it.. because black science man told you that's who you are.

>>21825983
based

>>21827150
top kek

>>21827859
The story of Job has been explained a million times. The explanation is perfectly sound from a logical point of view. Countless people understand it and accept it's rationality. Some people, like you and others, simply aren't "satisfied" with it and at that point what do you want them to do? Not everything revolves around you.

>>21826762
What are the differences between Heaven found in OT and the NT?

>>21825966
I think about Job a lot. Lately I curse God for the horrible things outside of my control that happen in my life. It really feels like destiny is fucking with me and I get so angry
I don't wanna be like this but my life sucks, I can't have faith, people disgust me, IDK

>>21825966
The value of Book of Job is in its confirmation that Satan is the lord of the Earth.