/lit/ - Literature

Benatar's work is an infohazard and he himself realises this. It is immoral and hypocritical for him to publish it since it causes no breeders to abstain from breeding but deepens the misery of the type of people who gravitate to his writing by showing them more ways in which life can be perceived as bad.

If he really cared he would use his considerable philosophical and rhetorical talent to write bloomer takes to actually diminish suffering somewhat.

>>21797139
>Antinatalism is about winning an argument

> bruising or cutting your finger slightly while making a gorgeous bbq makes the entire bbq not worth having been made
0/10

bump

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lx3rdVQZ3mo
https://www.abolitionist.com/anti-natalism.html

>Benatar's policy prescription is untenable. Radical anti-natalism as a recipe for human extinction will fail because any predisposition to share that bias will be weeded out of the population. Radical anti-natalist ethics is self-defeating: there will always be selection pressure against its practitioners. Complications aside, any predisposition not to have children or to adopt is genetically maladaptive. On a personal level, the decision not to bring more suffering into the world and forgo having children is morally admirable. But voluntary childlessness or adoption is not a global solution to the problem of suffering.

>Yet how should rational moral agents behave if - hypothetically - some variant of Benatar's diagnosis as distinct from policy prescription was correct?

>In an era of biotechnology and unnatural selection, an alternative to anti-natalism is the world-wide adoption of genetically preprogrammed well-being. For there needn't be selection pressure against gradients of lifelong adaptive bliss - i.e. a radical recalibration of the hedonic treadmill. The only way to eradicate the biological substrates of unpleasantness - and thereby prevent the harm of Darwinian existence - is not vainly to champion life's eradication, but instead to ensure that sentient life is inherently blissful. More specifically, the impending reproductive revolution of designer babies is likely to witness intense selection pressure against the harmfulness-promoting adaptations that increased the inclusive fitness of our genes in the ancestral environment of adaptation. If we use biotechnology wisely, then gradients of genetically preprogrammed well-being can make all sentient life subjectively rewarding - indeed wonderful beyond the human imagination. So in common with "positive" utilitarians, the "negative" utilitarian would do better to argue for genetically preprogrammed superhappiness.

>>21797188
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harlequin-type_ichthyosis

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqeN2RRR3xQ

>>21797271
>bro, let people trough hell because we think in the future we can cure pain
>but what about people that is suffering now?
>don't care bro, the future will cure everything

Literally like a retard christian that believe in heaven

>>21797297
Did you miss the part where he demonstrates that antinatalism will never work? Accepting that and then trying to minimise suffering in other possible ways is the best you can do.

>>21797307
Did you miss the part that shit the says don't actually exist right now and life still rough and shitty now and it doesn't make moral sense to play god with people life just because some retard think that the future can cure anything?

>>21797315
So your alternative is to just do nothing? Society is going to keep developing technologically anyway. The best we can do is try to prioritise the ethics of suffering as we do.

>>21797324
Yes, let mankind go extinct and end all suffering, preferably a worldwide omnicide of all living being on this planet is better, life = suffering.

>>21797139
Have you ever noticed
That I'm not acting as I used to do before?
Have you ever wondered
Why I always keep on coming back for more?

What have you done to me?
I'll never be the same I'll tell you for sure
I'll never be the same I'll tell you for sure
I'll never be the same I'll tell you for sure

You really are my ecstasy
My real life fantasy, oh yeah
You really are my ecstasy
My real life fantasy, oh yeah

>>21797275
> 1 in 3 million kid might be born with his skin fucked up and then die very shortly afterwards, it's a fucking tragedy and hopefully one day we'll be able to fix it and never have it happen again.
Vs
> 1 out of 3 million kid might be born fucked up so we should never ever have kids its literally a crime against them doing so.

>>21797386
>hey let's have a kid, it's 50/50 if they are born fucked up
>wait... are you playing dice with a kid's life
>don't care bro, just want to have a clone of mine running around

>>21797398
>50/50
If your gene pool is seriously that defective then yes, not reproducing is a good choice.

>>21797416
It's 50/50, nigger, it's literally gamble.

>>21797188
The suffering in life is not equivalent to a slight bruise or cut. Would you take your child to a bbq knowing it would end in their death? And lets not forget how bad the bbq is for the pig.

Imagine your entire view of existence essentially just being a pussy.

>>21797450
Kek, imagine being this psycophatic and having no campassion for people

>>21797446
>hard, cynical, rationalist, unafraid to face the cruel realities of existence bemoans the death of a pig

>>21797139
“Kill yourself, because facts and logic”
t. Bonehead Sharphero

>>21797458
You are the one who would rather people not exist than for anything bad to ever happen.

>>21797472
>>21797340

>>21797489
I am going to pray for you.

Natalists will screech about the climate, russia, latestagecapitalism, low wages, lack of housing, cost of living, how bad the education system, racism, transphobia, republicans, factory farms, cancer, death, taxes, headaches, healthcare, reproductive rights, bullying, natural disasters, starving africans, ebola, covid-19, rape, and pedophilia.

And then turn around have a child.

>>21797526
>Problem? Just give up!

>>21797499
>pray

God doesn't exist and you are praying to the empty void.

>>21797534
the problem is human suffering and the solution is to not create more humans. what's even being "given up" here? only when you have some sort of delusional idea that there's a purpose or teleos behind the "gran human project" do you think anyhting is being given up.

you sound like a christ fag

>>21797567
If you genuinely feel this way, then why does every anti-natalist have an austistic fit when you tell them to kill themselves?

>>21797139
>I will elevate my mental Illness into a philosophy
Many such cases

>>21797587
I can't speak for anyone else but I mean it's obvious isn't it? generally people aren't asking a philosophical question when they say "hurr just kys fgt",and nobody likes being told to kill themselves. It would be a different discussion if someone genuinely wanted to debate whether life, once already existing, is worth continuing, or really whether we should lethally harm ourselves because life contains suffering. I think it's a genuine question but "just kys weak fag" isn't.

>>21797610
>Christcuckery is not a mental illness

Kek

>>21797654
It’s not obvious.
>everyone needs to die
>but not me, I’m special

>>21797671
>that sheer stupidity

Antinatalism is not about killing the already alive, nigger.

>>21797681
It’s about eliminating all life from the planet so narcissist pussies can feel satisfied with themselves.

>>21797426
>50/50
Proof?

>>21797458
You cant have compassion for or from non-beings. You are literally calling for the end of all empathy in the world.

>>21797671
how are you this stupid? stupid dumb christcuck lol

>>21797686
it's about choosing not to procreate because life contains inevitable non-trivial harms that can be prevented, with no downside because the 'non-existent' cannot be deprived of the good in life.

>>21797710
The downside would be that you continue living and suffering, which is apparently such a tragedy that no one else should be allowed to live. And yet you are still too much of a coward to kill yourself. You can pretend I’m stupid but you know you are full of shit.

>>21797340
Well as Pearce said, that's not going to happen. So you need a plan b that you can get normals on board with. Normies are actually okay with gradual steps at reducing suffering.

>>21797426

>keep making the exact same fucking thread over and over and over until people want to kill themselves in order to prove yourself right
At last, I finally see.

>>21797729
>which is apparently such a tragedy that no one else should be allowed to live.

I find this funny. I see this sort of attitude in people who have children all the time. It's like there's this mental (iq related?) block in them, where they literally can't understand that their children don't exist yet. It's more a matter of "when" their children will be born, not if. as if there children already exist somewhere, and are just waiting to be birthed.

are you too stupid to get this? probably. not having children doesn't kill them. you're not "disallowing" anything from living. they literally don't exist.

>>21797848
I am telling you that you are a sick fuck for thinking this way.

Pathetic that there are able-bodied first worlders who believe this garbage. You could be a slave in a cobalt mine in the Congo or some shit. But you're not, and it is unlikely that your children would know such suffering. Antinatalism is incel cope, plain and simple.

>>21797857
Cope

>>21797866
No, the guys who think all life should cease because they hate their job and are sad sometimes are the ones coping

>>21797857
do you think the parents of those children should have chosen not to have kids?

>>21797139
What's the point of compassion for nonexistent beings?

>>21798000
we do it all the time. I can't be bothered explaining in depth but people care about the environment, saving species, not turning the economy into a technocratic hellscape, and always rag on people with fucked up disabilities for having kids.

>>21797426
>antinatalist grasp of mathematics and probability

>>21797398
>50/50
Are you classifiably, mentally retarded?

>>21798034
They're fucked up or they're not, two options, 50/50

>>21798036
That’s not the real probability. It’s sophistry.

>>21798063
look either it happens or it don't. 50/50. what other option is there? when you flip a coin it either lands heads or it don't. that's why they say 50/50. something either happens or it doens't.

>>21798063
Nigga, it either happens or not, stop with bullshit, "muh 33% chance"

>>21797426
yo bro I'm an anti natalist if you wanna help the movement please stop telling people you're an anti natalist

>>21798016
Most of those things actually exist, or at least are convenient shorthand for something that exists

>>21798165
Not all options are equal. Do you believe there is a 50% chance you will get struck by lightning every time you leave your house?

>>21797288
I posted this guy's videos on /lit/ before and everyone said he was reddit.

Is antinatalism on /lit/... dying? The threads aren't filling up as fast anymore.

>>21798539
/lit/ is accepting antinatalism, the new hot shit in the board is thread about socialism and marxism.

>>21798335
>Do you believe there is a 50% chance you will get struck by lightning every time you leave your house?

Are you dumb as shit? Everything is 50/50. When I leave the house either I get struck by lightning or I don't, so it's either one or the other - 50/50.

>>21798578
Based

>>21798578
>either it happens or it doesn't - 50/50 lol
Go out and spend your entire net worth on lottery tickets then.

>>21798743
It's dumb, you nigger, I can either lose or not, 50/50, I can't go for something so stupid know the odds like thet that it's as stupid gamble, like having a children, they you don't know what would happen to them, you're dumb.

Why do midwits equate suffering only with physical pain? Decades of meaninglessness is a different kind of psychological stress and torture.

>>21797188
Lazy analogy. Imagine getting a papercut every hour of every day, but once in a while you'll eat a nice meal.

>>21797139
Normalfags don't care about the pain of the world.

>>21797398
Sorry your mom had you after 40 anon

>>21798949
Nigger, you son can either born with schizophrenia or not, it's 50/50, do you a crystal ball to look into the future to know with certainty that you son won't be born with schizophrenia? I bet you don't, so don't say dumb shit you little dumb nigger.

>>21797139
Suffering is what makes life great.

>>21799033
100% of anti-natalism disproven.

>>21797139
>they go for a walk in the park
>interviewer forwards the idea that life can be improved
>Benatar raises his voice and starts sperging that life never improves (objectively false by the way)
>Benatar starts crying and basically says "life is unacceptable"
>interviewer is taken aback by his outburst and at a loss for words (Benatar is inconsolable)
Benatar is pretty unstable. On top of that he admits that his ideas are damaging while using the excuse that his work is academic and only meant for those that seek it out (note that these people are likely to have personality disorders and mental illness). Benatar objectively creates suffering and given that he's under the delusion that his work is toward the opposite: he's delusional and irrational.

>>21799148
>Those who profess anti-natalist beliefs are more likely to suffer from personality disorders and mental illness.

>>21799148
>This doesn't mean that anti-natalist arguments can be dismissed solely due to this fact; it does however add context to why autists make these threads and are completely unable to understand why they are wrong. It also has direct implications regarding Benatar's quality of life argument (i.e. anti-natalists are stuck in a rigid ideological system as a cope for to sustain their defective worldview).

>>21799148
>Anti-natalists are at a complete poverty when it comes to weighing quality of life. Their defective nature simply precludes them from accepting any rationalization outside of their own self-indoctrination. They don't necessarily mean to be disingenuous because such is simply written into their nature.

>>21799148
>>21799153
>>21799157
>>21799165
>This doesn't mean that anti-natalist arguments can be dismissed solely due to this fact
Correct. Still no argument.

Here's the problem.
Life isn't suffering at all. It is overwhelmingly a good thing.

>>21799185
With the aformentioned context of the above:
Their argument:
>antinatalists central claim is that life is harm
>they argue that you have to be alive to feel pleasure and stress this isn't guaranteed
>they argue that if you're not alive you are guaranteed not to suffer/harm
>[no guarentee of pleasure, risk of suffering/harm, therefore nonexistence is best = basic thread of argument]
>note: they also like to being up that the fact you don't have a choice in coming into existence
>they conclude that not reproducing and ending life is the optimal outcome to reduce harm

Why they're refuted:
>antinatalists can't validate their central claim as they cannot weigh the total value of life in aggregate (the best they can do is assert individual bad things happen)
>[this is all the refutation that is needed: they cannot draw logic, let alone an extreme conclusion, from a central claim they are unable to prove; simple as--but lets go on to point out their bad logic]
>they place the weight of guaranteed outcomes on detractors but they don't have prescience to forsee the outcome/value of individual lives (let alone the aggregate of all life which they are assuming) but...
>antinatalists are attempting to prove their conclusion and thereby the onus is on them produce a stable logic based on a proven premise
>however, any single example of value in life automatically contravienes their premise and contradicts the logic they attempt to assert
>[antinatalists are generally filtered by this because they still affirm their premise even though reason has been given to reject it]
>we may come to the idea of suicide and ending life (which is logically coherent with their outlook while showing their values are actually incosistent)
>suicide automatically means an end to suffering, any harm caused doesn't exist for the victim (aside, the absence of existence means you can't even weigh such anyway)
>denial of suicide is an affirmation that value exists in life (or else why not? note that they won't even admit that suffering is short relative to continued existence, they really want to avoid clearly weighing anything)
>if the antinatalist says it affects others a consistent logic follows that they kill them as well (the sooner the better in fact--stop them from reproducing which puts an end to countless future lives)
>alas, the anti-natalist will assert their original logic no longer applies once they are alive (again, affirming the value of existing and demonstrating their logic can actually be harmful)
>the last bastion is they HAD no choice to exist (convienently it doesn't matter that they have one now) but again there are plenty of examples of lives worth living

>>21799205
>no matter how many times you point out how AND why their premise is ungrounded they will still assert you must argue within the logic it sets out
>no matter how many times you point out the logic is inconsistent they retreat to the idea of their unfounded premise and assert it follows naturally
>no matter the absurdities you can show as consistent with their reasoning (i.e. you shouldn't kill yourself let alone others) they will simply change the rules
>life is valuable once it exists and yet we need to stop it from existing...that's what their bullshit boils down to and it's utterly stupid

At this point it's worthwhile to point out antinatalists will ignore strong arguments against their case and use any excuse to stay within their own logic. It must also be noted that trolls responses of "I guess I'll kill myself and others" are retarded: the point is life is valuable and you fail to prove otherwise. You affirm an extreme conclusion, ending all life, based on a demonstrably flawed premise and inconsistent logic. Refuted. Stop making these retarded threads now.

>>21799185
Antinatalists are unable to properly weight the quality of life argument--Benatar even admits his interpretiation of such is only "vaguely" true. Those who adopt antinatalist beliefs are likely coming from a place of resentment and actually care little about reducing harm--Benatar is an unstable person and admits his ideas generate harm.

Antinatalism is retarded. Q.E.D.

It can't be refuted.

>>21799148
>life is already unpleasant enough
>continues to spread misery with the excuse that it probably doesn't spread widely

Meanwhile he did high profile public debates with Sam Harris and Jordan Peterson, some of the most widely viewed pseuds in the business. Basically one step removed from shilling his worldview on Joe Rogan.

>>21799225
>Antinatalists are unable to properly weight the quality of life argument
Why should we assume natalists weigh it perfectly?

>>21799233
>It can't be refuted.
Benatar begs the question insofar as antinatalists like to retreat to logical tautology. This is actually what carries the weight of their argument--not the rational elucidation of such. For example, one may interpret that murder/suicide is logically consistent with the same tautologies forwarded by antinatalists. Only a Machiavellian psychopath, which are common within antinatalists, would want to agree.
>>21799267
>filtered
The point is that it cannot be weighed.

>>21799267
It's subjective and antinatalists are generally mentally ill.

>>21799311
>mentally ill
Outside of psychoses, an umbrella buzzword term for arbitrary man made distinctions in patterns of thought. Narcissism is a "mental illness" but it leads to babies and productivity so don't worry about it.

>>21799233
I have a good, fulfilling life and I’m happy.

>>21799225
>>21799267
>>21799311
There is no weighing, ethical statements aren't truth-apt. Both sides are just expressing their feels.

>>21799349
And what does that have to do with it? I don't think the animals you ate to survive were happy.

>>21799343
Narcissism is the one trait in the dark triad in which antinatalists weren't over represented. Thanks for playing.

>>21799351
>It's subjective and antinatalists are generally mentally ill.
Which part of that did you not understand?

>>21797139
Suffering is good, actually. Fulfill your nature.

>>21799439
If life is good that refutes that life is bad. Simple as

>>21797139
Niggers and pajeets will keep having babies, you know?

>>21797172
Yes, that point is predicated in the "anti"

>>21799233
It's true. On the other hand, it cannot be accepted, at least not on any significant scale. Npc bots cannot resist their genetic programming.

>>21799502
Every "good" has a evil cost. It is like when the tiger devours its prey. For the tiger it is good because it can once again see the light of day and the meat may taste good, but for the prey it was hell

>>21799575
The prey was weak and deserved to be devoured. If it was better it would have escaped defeating the tiger and the tiger would starve

>>21799582

>>21799588
There are winners and losers in life. Your loserness doesn’t take away from one’s winnerness. In fact, you chose to be a loser. You cope by thinking everyone’s life is shit. This isn’t the case. It is your life that is shit and you do nothing to fix it. Turn it around now and stop making these threads. I wish you the best

>>21799582
Both are weak because both are dominated by instincts/desires.
And no one them deserves anything. Because there is no such thing as cuckarma.

>>21799600

>>21799600
christpilled

You can't be a good person as a natalist.

>>21799575
>Every "good" has a evil cost
t. Machiavellian psychopath

>>21799600
Human life is defined by privation. Everyone's life is terrible by absolute necessity. There is no dichotomy between a "good" life and "bad" life, there are lives which are slightly more deluded about their own lack of self-sufficiency (the conventionally "successful" person), and those which have gazed directly into the abyss without mediation. By definition, the conventionally successful will come up with coping mechanisms to avert having to consciously realize their insufficiency, so that they can persist in their delusions of grandeur and happiness (until reality eventually and inevitably intervenes and humbles them). This is what Christ meant when he said it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle. The conventionally successful actually have it harder when their coping mechanisms are realized and seen for what they are.

>>21799582
>>21799600
Cognitive dissonance

>>21800442
Did I contradict myself? Very well, I contradicted myself. I am vast. I contain multitudes

>>21797139
>watch as DAVID BENATAR absolutely MINDFUCKS normalfags with LOVE and COMPASSION so that they will CHOOSE DEATH over LIFE
>get his BOOK for ONLY 40 NEOSHEKELS

>>21797139
*Refutes moral*
>"I learned that all moral judgments are 'value judgments,' that all value judgments are subjective, and that none can be proved to be either “right” or “wrong.” I even read somewhere that the Chief Justice of the United States had written that the American Constitution expressed nothing more than collective value judgments. Believe it or not, I figured out for myself—what apparently the Chief Justice couldn’t figure out for himself—that if the rationality of one value judgment was zero, multiplying it by millions would not make it one whit more rational. Nor is there any “reason” to obey the law for anyone, like myself, who has the boldness and daring “the strength of character” to throw off its shackles. . . .I discovered that to become truly free, truly unfettered, I had to become truly uninhibited. And I quickly discovered that the greatest obstacle to my freedom, the greatest block, and limitation to it, consists in the insupportable “value judgment” that I was bound to respect the rights of others. I asked myself, who were these “others”? Other human beings, with human rights? Why is it more wrong to kill a human animal than any other animal, a pig or a sheep or a steer? Is your life more to you than a hog’s life to a hog? Why should I be willing to sacrifice my pleasure more for the one than for the other? Surely, you would not, in this age of scientific enlightenment, declare that God or nature has marked some pleasures as “moral” or “good” and others as “immoral” or “bad”?

>>21797139
>absolutely mindfucks normalfags with fact, reason, logic and compassion for another human being

>>21797158
>muh infohazand
get on His level, pleb (picrel)
there's a reason why Jesus commands us to share the Gospel with everyone
(eg, the angels preach the Gospel to everyone before the End comes)
one of the reasons is to make everyone valid for Judgement
you won't be able to hide behind ignorance any longer

(obviously, the most important reason is to save people from Hell)

>>21797139
>still shilling a meme that was already debunked back in 2018

>>21800610
Fake quote. You've been scammed. Hopefully you ignore your scam callers,

>>21797654
>nobody likes being told to kill themselves.
nobody likes being told to sterilize themselves
>appeal to symmetry doesn't invalidate antinatalism
but it does invalidate the invalidation (sic) of natalism

picrel is sufficient to invalidate antinatalism
(If you were right, then God wouldn't have chosen to be born)

>>21797139
Noone likes cowards who advocate for genocide
>>21800698
Didn't he also choose to die?

>>21800705
Why people are so cowardly toward extinction?

>>21800705
>Didn't he also choose to die?

>>21800631
>>21800678
>>21800698
*Blocks your path*
>The Messiah clearly makes us understand in this statement that it is better to refrain from begetting, because begetting is to take the incalculable risk of begetting damned ones. Thus, this “better not to have been begotten” concerns not only Judas, but also, by extension, all those who will be thrown into hell at the Last Judgment.

>>21800713
>Why people are so cowardly toward extinction?
Why people are so cowardly toward eNtinction?
(ftfy)
>Thus, this “better not to have been begotten” concerns not only Judas, but also, by extension, all those who will be thrown into hell at the Last Judgment.
that's a leap, but picrel

>>21800738
This scares me a bit because I grew up in a Christian home. But nah I'll commit suicide anyway, because God is Almighty and nothing happens without his consent.

>>21800749
>nothing happens without his consent.
Correct.
Now understand this: you would be (ab)using your free will privileges to make it so that God does consent to letting it happen.
But God is Holy!
You attack His Holiness when you abuse your free will like that.
God shouldn't have to make the decision between actualizing your free will choice and your resultant annihilation, or no to both.
Can you not feel His pain when you put God into that situation?

>>21798826
Chronic pain is pretty bad

>>21799033
>suffering is Le good!

Explain that to a terminal ill childz , psychopaths

>>21800465
Imagine being this dumb because you believe in some retarded/pol/ conspiracy.

>>21800834
Of course and agreed. I had a hadouken or tiger uppercut level of pain over a number of years throw me off course a long time ago. Maybe it was meant to be. Maybe this is cope for who I was always meant to be. Maybe free will isn't real. It most likely isn't when you think about it long enough.. Whatever you do, this is me Doctor Who "Don't Blink" episode telling you, don't have kids. Trust me.

>>21799148
>Benatar's opinion is specifically solicited (why not improve the world?)
>Benatar gives a clear, ample answer (end doesn't justify means, suffering is too foundational to sentient life)
>Benatar expresses basic sorrow over the prevalence of suffering
>Interviewer has no objection or counter-argument
This is somehow supposed to be an argument against Benatar or antinatalism?
>>21799153
>>21799157
>>21799165
Asinine 'trust the science!' midwittery. 'Personality disorders' and 'mental illness' are prejudiced productions of the psychiatric industrial complex made largely on the arbitrary basis of the juxtaposition of perceived mental states with prevailing social norms. The majority of psychological research is not reproducible, and the majority of psychological methodology is subjectively contingent to the extent that it is just as likely to connect 'mental illness' to antinatalism presently, as it would be to do so for natalism in a hypothetical antinatalist society, other things being equal. There is as much legitimate, neurobiological evidence basis to connect antinatalism to 'mental illness' as there is to do so for natalism--which is to say, none whatsoever.
>>21799205
>antinatalists central claim is that life is harm
>antinatalists can't validate their central claim as they cannot weigh the total value of life in aggregate
If your only engagement with antinatalism has been via playing in utilitarian reddit kiddie pools, sure. Setting even the fact that Benatar himself considers non-utilitarian approaches aside, the vast literary history of views associated with life-negation is not even remotely encapsulated by this insipid strawman, rendering the subsequent wall of text largely irrelevant (not that it contains any good faith engagement anyway). Try harder; you're not coping quite enough.

>>21799210
Why is life valuable?

>better to have never been!

>>21799839
He’s right. Every good feeling you have is accompanied by a bad feeling. It’s how your brain chemicals work.
The only way to cheat the system is by taking out a loan and never paying it back. In conclusion, the optimal way to die is heroin overdose.

>>21797275
these kids will grow up fine. they just need a lot of lotion though.

>>21801142
another way is to enjoy the suffering and become a masochist.

>>21801175
or stoic.

>>21801093
Yes
>The best of all things for earthly men is not to be born and not to see the beams of the bright sun; but if born, then as quickly as possible to pass the gates of Hades, and to lie deep buried.
>Theognis of Megara, Elegies (Lines 425-428).

Everyone will enjoy an eternity of non-existence, yet those alive are blessed with the ability to make friends, create art, fall in love, etc. I think anti natalism can be disproven simply by the fact that the majority of people do not wish that they had never been born

Bump

by their own logic, i should be allowed to murder them on the spot

>>21797851
>my magical sky babies literally die in the stork’s mouth if I don’t have unprotected sex!
What’s this ideology called?

>>21801245
>I think anti natalism can be disproven simply by the fact that the majority of people do not wish that they had never been born

This literally proves antinatalism. Implicit in your statement is the minority of people who do not wish to have been born.

I pointed out earlier in this thread that there's an iq block in natalists that they literally can't grasp that the 'unborn' literally do not exist. They see their future children as almost pre-existing their own birth, and it's just a matter of *when* they are born, and not if.

But the reality is that the "unborn" quite literally do not exist in any way. The word refers to nothing. Natalists quite literally cannot grasp that nothing is harmed by not being born. They literally think their unborn children are out there somewhere, just waiting for a womb to be assigned to, and if one opts out of procreation a child will be denied the joys of life. But nothing is harmed by not being born. And so taking your logic we have two possible paths:

>procreate and risk having a child that wishes he were never born
>not procreate, not take this risk, and have no downside because the unborn do not exist yet to be deprived of the good in life

I mean what even is your logic? The suffering of those who regret their birth is cancelled by the "majority" who don't? They are sacrified on the altar of natalism for the "greater good"?

There's simply no need to have children, especially when the risks are so great.

i think anti-natalism and behavioral sink go hand in hand

>>21801541
Kek It's like experiment is happening among humans. We are in the final stages, bros...

>>21801419
everything will eventually die, and you are making the argument that it’s better to avoid the possibility of suffering, but why does outweigh avoiding the possibility of goodness?

>>21801587
>but why does outweigh avoiding the possibility of goodness?

Well it's just intuitively obvious to me that preventing suffering takes precedence over creating more good. You may say this isn't obvious but we all do it. For example is it better to give a starving child food, or a well fed child more food? One avoids suffering and the other creates more good.

But more to the point, avoiding the possibility of "goodness" in the context of the unborn comes with no downside, because unborn do not exist to feel deprived of the good in life. Whereas having a child, which will suffer at some point and then die is creating a tangible harm. So you can avoid this by not having a child, and not having that potential child feel good at some point is irrelevant because it doesn't exist to be deprived of this. it harms nothing.

So you avoid harm and there is no downside because it doesn't exist to feel deprivation of "good".

>>21801615
why not teach both the starved child and well fed child how to create more food? not only does it give them purpose but it also creates less suffering for the future.

>>21801615
There are also plenty of examples of pursuing things with the possibility or even likelihood of suffering. For example, a romantic relationship will frequently lead to sorrow, yet the potential for good outweighs that. And even if there are moments of pain, or the end result is pain, the experience often still results in growth and worthwhile experiences. Furthermore, the desire for no life is not just avoiding pain and pleasure, it is entirely eliminating the capacity for goodness to exist at all, and I’m not convinced that that is outweighed by the elimination of suffering

>>21797297
>Literally like a retard christian that believe in heaven
Except there's actually evidence that genetically engineering people for maximum happiness is possible, unlike Christianity.

>>21797139
I'm antinatalist for the mongrels

Taking antinatalism as an active stance is pointless because people who think deeply enough about life realize it themselves and others who are not able to will never realize it no matter how much in detail it is explained to them.

Another reason is people are mentally ruined and perceive everything to be a psyop. You cannot expect anyone to argue with you while maintaining logic when they are scared for their lives and think you have ulterior motives. It might even be the case with antinatalist literature but the point is most are not willing to look past that possibility and rationally consider whether life is worth it or not.

>>21801715
Kek What you call pain is not pain. When you watch a rekt and you say "shit this is too much, I refuse to see more" That's pain. Something really terrible and unacceptable that goes to extremes of the inconceivable. I recommend you watch Eathlings (2005) as a start to be a spectator of this condition. Shit made me cry

>>21798165
You are either a troll or like a 50 IQ. 50/50 means 50% chance per option, which is to say each is equally as likely. In your quarter example this is true. With most things one option can way outweigh the other possiblity. When you turn your computer on it either comes on or it doesn't. Hopefully it comes on more often than it doesn't.

Also, not everything is bionary. You would have to define "being fucked up" in order to do any kind of probability with it.

>>21801893
I'm not sure, but I think most antinatalists value animal life. That's when everything goes to shit, the damage caused to animals by human survival is immeasurable and is increasing. The ethic that puts human life above morality collapses completely. We were wost than animals all the time... Similarly, antinatalists feel based on the opposite. Is it ethical to live? In my opinion the only moral that makes sense. Morality above life. As Kant once said: “it is better to sacrifice one’s life than one’s morality.”
Well Kant was a chink in this aspect

>>21801918
Anti-natalism is a good belief for beings that happen to be met intense amounts of pain and stress; I would consider it if I were born as a Brazilian criminal undergoing transformation into a dancing noodle through wooden boards or a lonely Western woman past her 30s. Until then, there is so much to do on this Earth, so much pleasure and purpose to seek.

>>21800808
and what if the answer is - Why should I care?

>>21802016
I mean there is veganism if the main reason one thinks their decision to survive is unethical because it means animal torture.

Also I don't believe Kant's take is bug minded. Take the opposite side of that idea and think human life above everything. It leads to a world without morals and that such world will look more like China than anywhere else in my opinion.

>>21801715
>Furthermore, the desire for no life is not just avoiding pain and pleasure, it is entirely eliminating the capacity for goodness to exist at all, and I’m not convinced that that is outweighed by the elimination of suffering

What does it matter if it "goodness" doesn't exist at all, if no child is born to experience it? I think really what you're saying is, "aesthetically I don't like the idea of a universe in which goodness doesn't exist so I will have children in the hopes it does"

>>21797567
>delusional idea that there's a purpose or teleos behind the "gran human project"
It is not delusional, it is demonstrably true because NDEs are real and prove that there is an afterlife and that we are eternal and will go to heaven unconditionally when we die. And NDErs talk about how the meaning of life is to learn to love and be kind and thrive here despite how hard it is in this world. So there is purpose, but a dogmatic materialist will never be able to see it or understand it because to them, materialism _MUST_ be true so life _MUST_ lack meaning. And there is literally no point in trying to argue with people whose bottom line has already been written in stone.

But for those less dogmatic, here is a very persuasive argument for why NDEs are real:

https://youtu.be/U00ibBGZp7o

It emphasizes that NDErs are representative of the population as a whole, and when people go deep into the NDE, they all become convinced. As this article points out:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/mysteries-consciousness/202204/does-afterlife-obviously-exist

>"Among those with the deepest experiences 100 percent came away agreeing with the statement, "An afterlife definitely exists"."

Since NDErs are representative of the population as a whole, and they are all convinced, then 100% of the population become convinced that there is an afterlife when they have a sufficiently deep NDE themselves. When you dream and wake up, you instantly realize that life is more real than your dreams. When you have an NDE, the same thing is happening, but on a higher level, as you immediately realize that life is the deep dream and the NDE world is the undeniably real world by comparison.

Or as one person quoted in pic related summarized their NDE:

>"As my soul left my body, I found myself floating in a swirling ocean of multi-colored light. At the end, I could see and feel an even brighter light pulling me toward it, and as it shined on me, I felt indescribable happiness. I remembered everything about eternity - knowing, that we had always existed, and that all of us are family. Then old friends and loved ones surrounded me, and I knew without a doubt I was home, and that I was so loved."

Needless to say, even ultraskeptical neuroscientists are convinced by really deep NDEs.

And the life review in particular shows that there is a huge ethical component to the meaning of life. How we treat each other is central to the meaning of life. But for atheists and materialists who have not been kind to others, this message then gets double the resistance in their minds. Understandably.

>>21797307
More on why antinatalism will never work:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5X18lqyDO0
https://www.unz.com/akarlin/breeders-revenge/

>>21802016
Placing animals above humans would make you rural Indian; you would eat their shit and worship the ground they walk on. In the West, can see this trait in dog nutters who love to tongue kiss their shit gobbling dog. And placing animals below you would make you rural Chinese; you become barbaric and have no empathy for living things. We can see this trait in hunters or gun nuts in general. I think anti-natalists should look into the Indian lifestyle because it vibes fairly well with their animal worship.

>>21802190
Yes.

>>21802371
That's wrong because you're using a child for your own aesthetic ends. I don't see a categorical difference between having children to achieve some aesthetic aim, and say throwing babies at a canvas because the splatter pleases you. I mean what is the difference?

>>21797188
not all suffering is equal. but that doesnt mean that it wouldn't have been better if you didn't burn your finger.

>>21802292
>that book

I cant be real, lmao how people that that shit seriously?

>>21798926
therefore, normalfags deserve their pain.

>>21799513
so will pigs and dogs, whats your point?

>>21801142
which begs the question, would antinatalism apply to artificial life that wouldn't have that mechanism?

>>21799564
nigga just literally don't BREED how hard is that bitch ass nigga?
>muh programming
use a condom, get a vasectomy/hysterectomy or just don't fuck? if you fuck up get an abortion
i mean jeez i swear its not that hard you guys

>>21797139
You can't prevent life. Death is impossible. Deny a mind this place and time to emerge, and it'll simply pop up in another.
If you desire some obligation, why not take on the duty of making this life a bright spot in the sea of reincarnation for other people?

>>21802559
it doesnt matter, if life reemerges anyways then its still better to snuff it out as soon as possible.
>why not take on the duty of making this life a bright spot in the sea of reincarnation for other people?
because death is way easier to reach than a utopia.

>>21802578
You've got the reading comprehension of a grape, my man

>>21802580
oh shit I misread, my apologies effectivealtrustic fag.

>>21797139
what anti-natalists wish they were:

>>21802599
better than rats which are the breeder spirit animal

>>21802599
>what anti-natalists wish they were:
You can't understand the "Better Never to Have Been"?

>>21801813
still a leap of faith, and an absurdly huge one.
not much better than a christian. benatar is at least honest, just kys literally.

>>21800940
why is death valuable?
>>21800808
What if tme answer is that you do care?
(you do)

the only counter argument to antinatalism is to reject that pain is bad.
>pain is actually le good, because growth or whatever
following this, then rape and getting burned alive are actually good for you, because you can learn and grow apparently.
tell that to pic related

>>21802559
bro just flip the reincarnation switch off.

This book is absolute a brutal blackpill, no wonder that people can't deal with it so well.

>>21802742
I get that antinatalists are retards with personality disorders and mental illness but you just took it to a whole new level of retard with that post.

>>21800907
>Benatar has a breakdown in public, spergs about life being terrible, and starts crying while people are picnicing with their families on a sunny day (leaving his interviewer at a loss for words)
Yeah, that's an argument against Benatar.
>Asinine 'trust the science!' midwittery
Blah bah blah. Replicated findings demonstrate that those championing antinatalist beliefs are likely to have personality disorders related to Machiavellianism and psychopathy. They are also likely to suffer from mental illness (i.e. depression). This reders their judgement highly suspect as it relates to any argument that involves perception and worldview (i.e. quality of life). Simple as.
>this insipid strawman
You can't prove the aggregate of life experience one way or another. Benatar himself admits his argument is only true in a "vague" sense. You thereby have no basis to affirm the extreme conclusion that life should not exist. You're attempts to retreat to abstractions and monopolizing the logic of discussion are pathetic. Antinatalists are retarded. Simple as.

>>21802936
you keep telling your self that.

>>21797139
this post is bait and there is really no reason to agree with Benatar. he would have offed himself if life were truly so unbearable but he understands on some level that the wonders of daily experience and joy of existence are worth continuing on for.

these self-harming beliefs are likely the consolations of a deeply troubled mind and difficult life circumstances. I hope all anti-natalists can come to see the beauty of life beyond comparison !

>>21802742
Did you watch one monkey rekt video and base your entire worldview on it?

>>21802981
>because talking to antinatalists is like talking to a wall
We already know that.

>>21797139
Benetar is from South Africa, so that explains almost everything.

>>21800738
>>21800808
There is no such thing as hell, Christcuck

>>21803287
Because of such beliefs, atheists commit suicide. If there is none recompense or punishment, why even live? Kek

Bump

how does one measure suffering?

>>21803343
so you admit that youre a useless pig that needs the punishment of a deity to behave?

>>21801615
The extinction of the human race eliminates all potential enjoyment of beauty. It's an aesthetic crime without equal. This is why antinatalism is gay and can't catch on. Normal, sane people find it inherently repulsive.

>>21804208
Pain, nigger, pain.
.

>>21797426
Most intelligent antinatalist.

>>21804264
>Nigger can't understand the point

>>21801093

>>21797139
compassion can be quite overrated sometimes

>>21799496
yes!

>>21799459
but why is narcissism actually bad? no one can actually answer that.

>>21802514
fuck no, in fact, I think we should rescind consent laws as well

Absolutely nothing tests my antinatalist views.

>>21804229
I don't even believe in God. And I'm literally going to kill myself.

>>21804591
of course it can! fellow low empathy sociopath.

>>21804600
Because it isn't the same thing as self-esteem. People with narcissistic personality disorder have problems building meaningful relationships with others and their poor reality testing frequently leads to personal and professional failures. On top of that their self-perception isn't based on actual competencies or accomplishments, although they fully expect to be treated as if they're some type of genius/celebrity, which means they're consistently in a tenuous position.

It's been a long time since I've read up on it but I think there are two main classes of narcissists. One is "fragile" (these are the ones that place enormous weight on their perception in the eyes of others and meltdown if they get a sense their persona isn't perceived appropriately by others) and I can't recall the other offhand.

But anyway, antinatalists are more likely to have psychopathic and Machiavellian traits and were found to be around average in trait narcissism.

How do antinatalists and efilists refute this

>>21804609
oh i thought i was talking to a chriscuck

>>21804812
we don't. we are deeply terrified of the implications.

>>21804812
but honestly open individualism is kinda retarded, it doesn't matter if its the exact same thing as me, its just my twin at best. but still terrifying.
>you kill your self, only for your twin to wake at another place.

>>21804812
This shit further supports antinatalism

>low IQ can't comprehend the idea of not having children due to avoid harm to them

Jesus Fucking Christ, /lit/ is inhabit by stupid people.

>>21804812
Defend what? It makes no sense.

If I have an infinite awareness state, it seems hard capped for recollection at thirty or so years ago, rendering any previous state meaningless, as though I came from nothing. Doing the same at the end of the line would just be another such barrier.

What mechanism would return me to a robust conscious state after my brain has suffered metabolic collapse? A brain just like mine would still be causally disconnected from any future states. Its like if I created you bit by bit in my basement. It would never be you as you sit. It would be another dude with a completely different history that occupies a wholly separate causal identity.

>>21797139
>Our lives contain so much more bad than good in part because of a series of empirical differences between bad things and good things. For example, the most intense pleasures are short-lived, whereas the worst pains can be much more enduring. Orgasms, for example, pass quickly. Gastronomic pleasures last a bit longer, but even if the pleasure of good food is protracted, it lasts no more than a few hours. Severe pains can endure for days, months, and years. Indeed, pleasures in general—not just the most sublime of them—tend to be shorter-lived than pains. >Chronic pain is rampant, but there is no such thing as chronic pleasure. There are people who have an enduring sense of contentment or satisfaction, but that is not the same as chronic pleasure. Moreover, discontent and dissatisfaction can be as enduring as contentment and satisfaction; this means that the positive states are not advantaged in this realm. Indeed, the positive states are less stable because it is much easier for things to go wrong than to go right. The worst pains are also worse than the best pleasures are good. Those who deny this should consider whether they would accept an hour of the most delightful pleasures in exchange for an hour of the worst tortures. Arthur >Schopenhauer makes a similar point when he asks us to “compare the respective feelings of two animals, one of which is engaged in eating the other.” The animal being eaten suffers and loses vastly more than the animal that is eating gains from this one meal. Consider too the temporal dimensions of injury or illness and recovery. One can be injured in seconds: One is hit by a bullet or projectile, or is knocked over or falls, or suffers a stroke or heart attack. In these and other ways, one can instantly lose one’s sight or hearing or the use of a limb or years of learning.
>The path to recovery is slow. In many cases, full recovery is never attained. Injury comes in an instant, but the resultant suffering can last a lifetime. Even lesser injuries and illnesses are typically incurred much more quickly than one recovers from them. For example, the common cold strikes quickly and is defeated much more slowly by one’s immune system. The symptoms manifest with increasing intensity within hours, but they take at least days, if not weeks, to disappear entirely.
>The Human Predicament: A Candid Guide to Life's Biggest Questions (2017) (p. 37).
Benatar is the last black pill bros...

>>21797398
>>21797416
>>21797426
It’s not 50/50. All people are born fucked up.

>>21803287
cope

>>21802082
and what if the answer is: you do care?

>>21805723
I'm surprised it took someone so long to say it.

>>21805517
Based, that kills the worldcels breeder.

i just dont understand muh human beans are just so special and complicated. yes there is no god and a very big galaxy and hundreds of other lifeforms but we cant give up! we are le humans. we are so epic and le special. you are a weak pussy bitch if u think we are just a product of evolution and a collection of atoms! we are willful and have souls and we go to a special place maybe where we die. the laws of physics dont exist the world is just in my mind. trust me i just know life is special and has value because it inherently has value!!!

i would torture 10000 babies if 10000000 people could live happy. thats moral and ethical. if u get born on the bad side well, heh....sucks for u pussy bitch.

if youre fine with being a braineead absurdist i dont give one fuck but there are those who dont even have a choice. to deny that is to deny ethics and compassion and empathy. only absolute retards would say being empathetic to suffering is bad. i know we are flawed animals but fucks sake at least try once to think from your stupid dumb fuck hormone brains
hurt durr me breed me eat me react
you are on the same fucking level as a plant or a rabbit

we stay alive because we want to help others. to endure the suffering so that no more can be made.

cant believe kys arguments being made again and again

>>21807223
>cant believe kys arguments being made again and again
That's how it goes. Some of us are trying to bowl and some of us are here to piss in the ball return.

>>21807223
>>21807367
kys hypocrtes

>>21807386
Of what did he mean by this?

>>21807386
>enters a discussion
>listens but understands nothing
>spouts irrelevant nonsense which had nothing to do with what is being said
>leaves confident he debunked whatever he may not have liked

>>21807417
>btfos antinatalists with 5 letters
Ok, kys.

>>21807417
>Yes

>>21804812
retard
>>21804249
muh life is special
>>21804208
dont have to
>>21803197
muh kys argument
>>21802975
ad hominem
muh prove suffering is bad
>>21807426
>btfos himself by arguing with a strawman

ok i think i covered all these retards if u have another retarded argument feel free

to deny an you are either a nihilist and fuck you or some psychopath normie which is fine with others suffering as long as he's happy.

again, kys is not a fucking argument. an is not depressive wah muh life is bad i wanna kys u should too. its an objective view of our flawed existence causing suffering. if you are fine with suffering then we cant argue since we have differing axioms and no amount of talking is going to change your retarded brain. go play videogames or watch some netflix movie or some shit. and if you are a nihilist, dont come to debate philosophy if yours is that nothing matters.

oh i forgot another famous one
>infinite pleasure by brain programming or whatever sci fi bullshit you imagine
breaks laws of universe

lets see if someone can provide value to life besides reducing suffering (an)

>>21807468
>absolutely seething
"AD HOMINEM! STRAWMAN!" Kek.

>>21807542
do u know what a strawman is?
since i thought you werent a drooling retard i opted for a small word instead of a big paragraph but in short
when you say kys, you are not arguing against an. you made some retard up that wants to die. but hes not killing himself because hes a retard or a coward or whatever. that is not an. so you are talking to your own braindead mind instead of participating in a constructive argument because what you say makes no sense. it has nothing to do with my argument. you made up a weak argument and are claiming its mine but its not what im saying.
you should kill yourself for the good of the human race

>>21807516
At some point, when nobody was looking, an umbilical formed between antinatalists and effective altruist/rationalists and the consequences have been a disaster for the human race, and also retarded. Inmendham and Ligotti addressed this.

>>21807574
Yeah these depressed retards screaming “stop breeding” with no one listening is much better plan than curing cluster headaches and solving hunger

>>21807571
>REEEEEEEEEEEEEE
I'm not reading all of that you speg. Fact: antinatalists are prone to personality disorders and mental illness. Fact: this colors their basic perception and worldview. Fact: this has direct implications relating to the quality of life argument.

On top of this we have your (pseudo)intellectual idol having a breakdown in a public park with picnicing families enjoying the nice sunny weather. This fag even admits that his argument relating to quality if life is only vaguely true and that his ideas generate harm. So yeah--if they actually want to make the world a better place it would be a good idea for antinatalists to just kill themselves. At the very least it would shut them the fuck up and we could stop having these threads.

>>21807597
>curing cluster headaches and solving hunger
At what point in your robopocalyptic trans-species Bay Area neckbeard orgy where you planning on getting to that?

i've been thinking about the nature of pain and how it influences different people.
i think that people tend to call antinatalists depressed or ill (mentally or otherwise) because normal people are wired to easily forget and justify ("no pain no gain", "god works in mysterious ways" etc) their pain while some are not.
excruciating long lasting pain is an easy shortcut towards antinatalism, it takes a very considerate person to buy into it otherwise.
I was already on the fence pretty much my whole life (child free), but personally it took me a very painful experience to fully appreciate antinatalism.
pain shatters your world view, even when you recover you just can't see the world in a positive way anymore, even if you're being genuinely happy or content in the moment.

>>21807613
Yeah, this is the nature of PTSD.

Its hard to come back to the "real world."
Thomas Ligotti's "This Degenerate Little Town" covers this well. Its hard not to see things through the lens of suffering once you've been toe-to-toe with the real deal Holyfield for some period of time. It would take some high level brainwashing to even think exposing someone to what I've experienced would ultimately act in their benefit.
It would take some sort of thought-terminating cliche like "pain helps us grow" or something.

https://youtu.be/FBca33v8oGM

>>21807574
what do you have against rationalism?
are we meant to just imagine?
>>21807597
an is a discussion of a theoretical philosophy. promortalism is its application. lets see someone advocate for that in public though
>>21807608
>attacking the people that bring up an idea instead of the idea
>no sympathy for others
>cant think of the future or consequences of actions
yep typical psychopathic retarded normie. amazing that having sympathy for other beings is now a mental illness, retards will make any kind of shit up though when they have no arguments and cant understand what they are trying to discuss
>>21807613
yes, its just how beings are wired. an animal doesnt think of ethics. they only breed and consume. humans are animals but we have the capacity to at least think about what we are doing and our consequences (obviously not all of us as you can see, still i have hope for these retards and feel bad for them, i would save them too from life)

real an would not destroy the world, but the universe, we are a long ways from that and maybe we never will be, but we can still plant the seed

>>21807613
>i think that people tend to call antinatalists depressed or ill (mentally or otherwise) because
They actually are: >>21799153

>>21807668
>coping with their defective worldview by spamming logical fallacies
thank u natalist, u can leave the an thread now.

>>21807655
>projection
Antinatalists are likely to have personality disorders relating to psychopathy and Machiavellianism. They are also likely to suffer from depression. This has direct implications relating to their interpretation of reality and therefore how they receive Benatar's quality of life argument. Benatar himself admits that his own characterization of this argument is only "vaguely" true. The fact is that it's an entirely subjective argument and those possessing antinatalist views are at a demonstrable poverty when it comes to validating their own claims.

Cope.

>>21807687
>thank u natalist, u can leave the an thread now.
Antinatalists are prone to personality disorders and mental illness. This has direct implications to how they interpret Benatar's quality of life argument. The fact is that Benatar's nonsense isn't grounded in logic but is rather a projection of his own psychological problems. Cope.

>>21807692
>the person with no sympathy for others is not a psycho
>the person with sympathy for others is a psycho
pick up a dictionary retard

>attacking the people that bring up an idea instead of the idea
ad hominem logical fallacy

>vaguely true
still true

>entirely subjective
tell me how the argument for life is objective

>more ad hominem

you are simply wrong and instead of spouting bullshit should just come up with something better but i doubt you can

>>21807708
>muh ad hominem

>isnt grounded in logic
aka short for i didnt read the argument and or i dont have logic because im a drooling braindead retard

I DONT LIKE THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE THE IDEA SO THE IDEA IS WRONG!!!
pwned, cope seethe dilate etc

oh how about you attack the logic of the argument? either you're gonna expose yourself as a psycho for saying the feelings of others don't matter or a retard for saying suffering is good (lol it happens).

if u somehow believe the pleasure outweighs the pain you are coping. reflect on asymmetry

>>21807724
>REEEEEEE
Again, I'm not reading all of that because it won't acknowledge the fact that: antinatalists are prone to personality disorders and mental illness that directly relate to how the interpret Benatar's quality of life argument. Benatar himself admitted his characterization is only "vaguely true" and knows that his work produces harm. Simple as.

>>21807736
you claim not to read what im saying but keep writing long paragraphs lmao do you think you look cool
are you talking to yourself retard
i refuted all your points like 3 replies ago go read

>”Computer, please give me familial information for David Benatar, including parents’ names.”
>”Thank you computer.”

>>21807744
>replicated research has shown that antinatalists are prone to personality disorders (psychopathy/Machiavellianism) and mental illness (depression)
>this directly relates to their perception of the world and life in general
>specifically it relates to how they interpret Benatar's quality of life argument (which is subjective and which Benatar admits is only "vaguely" true)
>further, Benatar himself admits that his ideas produce harm (and it's firmly established they attract toxic people)
You can't disprove the above. All you can do is pretend it's an ad hom without meeting the context provided head on. Cope, retard.

>>21807770
its literally an ad hom. go look up what it is
as for the rest (subjective, vaguely true, produce harm) i already replied to it all, go read

cant believe u write the same fucking shit 4 times without reading any replies
literally a retard since u dont even know logical fallacies
this isnt how you argue

>>21800840
not my problem

I like how some of the anons here are acting in the exact way ligotti's book describes how people act upon rejecting the idea.
as if it cant be a genuine inquiry, how can it be anything but a conspiracy? lmao

>>21807779
>REEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
It's not a logical fallacy, retard. The context is the subjective nature of the quality of life argument alongside the fact that those professing antinatalist beliefs are prone to personality disorders and depression. This has a direct impact on their worldview and their ability to interpret quality of life.

Antinatalists are mentally defective and they project their warped sense of reality in order to come to an extreme conclusion. In fact, the other half of their nonsense tries to assume the posture of a quantitative argument but the reality is it's dependant on the qualitative affirmations they assert (and note again that they're at a poverty when it comes to assessing such).

On top of this, you have the fact their arguments aren't logically grounded. They assume a monopoly on the tautologies being put forward, these alone and not their rational elucidation is what carries the weight of their arguments, when counter-interpretations can be validly demonstrated. It can also be shown how antinatalist arguments lead directly to absurdities that run counter to the idea they are about reducing harm. This can be done both theoretically and by giving real world examples (e.g. Benatar himself admits his ideas produce harm).

Keep coping, retard.

>>21807823
NTA,
either a troll or a mentally ill retard (see what i just did?)
you can keep playing this stupid game of showing some random and probably poorly researched paper by the totally not pseudoscience and totally not thought police thats called modern psychology.
and even if there was truly some merit what that paper says then its not surprising that a portion of the population are more or less likely to be receptive to certain ideas, but obviously this doesn't say or mean anything beyond that.
it doesn't say anything about the idea it self, it's just ad homing in a poorly disguised "argument", so go ahead and play your stupid psychology (thought police) game all you want. and shove that paper deep up your ass. you ad homn nigger.

>>21797139
Just wait until you realize that all consciousness is one and we will be fated to experience every possible experience for all eternity.

Coming into existence is not a choice and neither can it be stopped or ended.

>>21807844
>I CAN DISMISS WHATEVER IS INCONVENIENT TO MY BELIEFS!
Kek. Also it's obvious by your formatting that you're the same anon. That's pretty pathetic because I honestly don't care if the other 72 posters ITT disagree with my argument--it doesn't make it less correct.

Again, the context is that the quality of life argument is subjective. Antinatalists are prone to psychopathy/Machiavellianism (e.g. pretending to be a different person on an anonymous web forum, kek) as well as depression. This has direct relevance to how they interpret the quality of life argument. Aside, when pressed Benatar said his argument was only "vaguely" true and he has admitted that his ideas cause harm.

>>21807870
like I said, this doesn't say anything useful about the fact that *Sarah got burned alive when she was 5.

>Bad things happen therefore everything is bad
By this logic I could say that good things happen therefore everything is good

>>21807858
there has to be a way to stop it.
the universe doesn't have a "mind".

>>21807890
you need either a powerful painful experience or a utilitarian view or both to fully get it.
sure a random needle pinch wouldn't matter much, but look at the bigger picture.

>>21807896
Why stop it? Life is about the journey.

>>21807901
Bigger picture is that the point of existence is to experience it.

Everything has its equal and opposite, and for a good reason. Humans crave suffering, there would be no free will without it. Neither would there be happiness. Heroin exists. Is the highest good to be hooked up to a heroin drip? Without loneliness, the joy of companionship would have no meaning.

>>21799284
Make absence of pleasure neutral instead of bad
Make absence of pain good instead of neutral.
Wow look at my rhetoric mommy.
If the absence of pain is good instead of neutral than the absence of pleasure is bad, not neutral.

>>21807879
>BAD THINGS HAPPEN THO!
No shit, retard. The point is that a bad thing happening to "Sarah" doesn't prove that all existence is negative.

Again, you allow your (bias) interpretation of tautologies to carry the weight of your argument. You cannot prove the aggregate of experience is suffering and your argument attempts the beg the question that all experience should not exist. This is an extreme conclusion and the fact your worldview is tainted by mental illness doesn't lend credance to your beliefs.

Also, it was weird that you pretended to be someone else. Thanks for giving an example of the psychopathic/machiavellian nature of antinatalists.

>>21807896
>the universe doesn't have a "mind".
The mind is the only thing that exists, and the only thing that has ever existed and will ever exist

>>21807909
>Everything has its equal and opposite
no, maybe in a purely physical way (that has nothing to do with the observer) but even with that we're not completely sure.
systems are not perfect, least of all pain/pleasure systems.
and even if they were thats still not a justification.
>Humans crave suffering, there would be no free will without it. Neither would there be happiness. Heroin exists. Is the highest good to be hooked up to a heroin drip? Without loneliness, the joy of companionship would have no meaning.
its not about pleasure.

>>21807912
>anons prove his anti-life argument is shit
>has a complete meltdown into rage
Imagine being this pathetic.

Reminder: pic-related is the atmosphere that reduced David Benatar to tears of frustration and hopelessness.

>>21807913
>all experience should not exist
well im not a full blown promortalist, talk to the other anon about that.
as far as im concerned at least biological life is not worth it, im willing to give artificial life a shot.

>>21807914
you're drinking that idealist kool-aid.
you could say that the only thing we could be sure of is awareness but its not a very useful thought.
I believe that even if "mind" was the source then it could still be understood and modified.

>>21807917
Fortunately for you, my suffering friend, that everything is impermanent. A moment is experienced once and never again.

It has been a long time since I read the Raven, but I vaguely remember it being about a man mourning his dead wife, and a raven flies into his study. It can only say one word "Nevermore" and he constantly asks it questions, driving himself mad, knowing it will only answer one thing. Asking questions, like whether he will meet his dead wife again in the afterlife. To which it responded, of course, Nevermore.

So enjoy the moment while it lasts.

(Now, there might be some question over whether an event of the infinite is destined to cycle exactly the same way each time or if it will change somehow. So with strange aeons, events may reoccur, but you won't have to worry about that for at least a few trillion trillion trillion aeons.)

>>21807932
>THIS IS MADNESS! EVERYONE IN THAT PICTURE WILL DIE ONE DAY! THEY'RE PROBABLY EATING ANIMALS THAT HAD TO DIE FOR THEM TO LIVE! AND LOOK--THE OLD MAN HAS MALE PATTERN BALDNESS! THIS IS INSANITY! EXISTENCE IS EVIL! WHY WON'T YOU LISTEN TO ME!!!!
t. David Benatar upon witnessing a family having a picnic on a sunny say.

>>21807932
Jesus and Buddha both talked about how this can be done: transcending the ego

>>21807936
here we see a projecting deranged human that couldn't bare to see reality behind the curtain.
the human will continue with his day randomly cursing the antinatalist whenever something reminds him of their existence.

>>21807939
ok, lets say they're right.
that means that only some humans are able to transcend and "escape" correct?
what about the other animals and humans? stuck in limbo forever? how is that helpful?

>>21807954
No, there is only one mind, looking inwards, meditating on itself. All consciousness comes from the same source. Everything is an aspect of this mind, even yourself. Your limited perspectives are like being able to see through just one eye. Your eye is not your entire self. The idea that you only have one eye, is the ego.

>>21807935
>So with strange aeons, events may reoccur, but you won't have to worry about that for at least a few trillion trillion trillion aeons
too bad we don't get to enjoy our cosmic long sleep. i die and my twin wakes up in an instant as far as im concerned.

>>21807823
>3 whopping paragraphs of ad hominem, after 4 replies of ad hominem and me asking them to go look up what ad hominem is
kek
oh and this guy isnt me
>>21807844

>>21807870
braindead repeating same 3 lines for 5 to 6 posts in a row, broken record etc etc,
>>21807890
real

>>21807909
ladies and gentlemen the modern normie retarded shit take philosophy on life

>>21807913
>spouting philosophical big words withiut knowing what they mean and expecting me to read all that shit when you dont know what ad hominem is (and keep using it btw)

>>21807981
Ultimately, you will experience everything there is to experience. If the consciousness exists forever, it will adapt forever. So suffering only exists to give meaning to bliss. It is said that Jesus was condemned to hell for the sins of all mankind, and arose from hell to heaven, having a mind free of any burdens of sin or guilt.

>>21808001
My friend, you have made just about the lowest IQ post in this thread. Like a chihuhua, yapping at bigger dogs, yet posing no threat whatsoever.

>>21807950
>here we see a projecting
>the human will continue with his day randomly cursing the antinatalist whenever something reminds him of their existence
Holy cringe, work on your self-awareness. Also, Benatar literally had a meltdown being around families picnicing on a sunny day (>>21799148 kek).

>>21808001
>still crying about ad homs instead of meeting their context
>crying about "big words"
Yeah, this guy >>21808010 gets it.

Are there really no photos of David Benatar on the internet?

>>21808176
nope, none.
honestly im starting to think he doesn't actually exist. his books are probably under a pseudonym.
probably not even from south Africa. id do the same given the controversial topic.
the podcasts are the closest thing, but he could fake even that.

is Benatar white? (110-130 IQ)
or Jewish? (130-160 IQ)

>>21808216
Bantu.

>>21808227
So 60 IQ?

>dude just le kill yourself
This argument is so stupid. That's not how people work. And that's part of the torture.

>>21808176
No but there are a few cringy "comedy" articles he wrote.

>>21808010
ironic that the animal following only its base instincts with no capability or desire for thought beyond is calling me a dog
>>21808034
>the people that support x idea often have y bad characteristic
>therefore x idea is inherently wrong!!!
the absolute state of /lit/

>>21808304
>still can't acknowledge the relationship between mental illness, worldview, and the fact Benatar's quality of life argument is subjective (and therefore coloured) by the above
Antinatalists are pathetic. Imagine seething because you can't prove life isn't worth living, kek.

>>21808322
ok there is a relationship (i havent seen the studies but whatever)
what you are claiming is still a logical fallacy

>this worldview is subjective
like every other????

>>21808269
Peepee poopoo

Antinatalism is forever blown out by one single phrase even the most stunted retard can come up with.
>kys
>noooooooooooooooo you can't say thaaaat

The coping is just hilarious. To bad I wont read most of the replies because I'm too busy enjoying my life despite suffering.

>>21808333
>ok there is a relationship
As I've been referencing and elaborating upon in each post. Took you long enough, retard.
>what you are claiming is still a logical fallacy
No it isn't, retard. The quality of life argument is directly tied to perception and worldview. Personality disorders and mental illness influence perception and worldview. Therefore, the conclusions of antinatalists in relation to quality of life are suspect. Aside from this you have Benatar having a breakdown while surrounded by happy people in a park. This doesn't necessarily mean his arguments are wrong but it constitutes evidence that he isn't exactly coming from a healthy place and he likely isn't the type of person you'd want to trust when it comes to making a subjective qualification that all life in the universe is bad. Further, Benatar admits that his assumptions in the quality of life argument are only "vaguely" true and also admits that his ideas create harm (which he writes off as only coming to those who seek it out--if you think that's a good excuse fine, I don't considering his ideas are bad ones).

Antinatalists cannot prove the aggregate of existence falls more toward suffering than pleasure. Benatar tries to argue that the assymetry argument isn't quantitative and retreats to asserting a monopoly on the interpretation of the tautologies grounding his argument. Existence entails suffering to some degree and an unborn life cannot consent to coming into existence. Fine. That doesn't prove the qualitative aspects Benatar insists upon carry more weight than alternative interpretations (equally qualified) nor (again) can he quantify existence in aggregate. Further, one can demonstrate through both thought experiments and real world examples that the logic Benatar forwards leads to morally repugnant outcomes.

Antinatalism is retarded and antinatalists are mentally ill ideologues. It's pathetic.

>>21808480
>As I've been referencing
You mean writing the same thing 10 times (basically what you've done again here but I like the details).
Again. Google ad hominem. Evidence is not proof. You do not construct a logical argument by attacking a person. (same applies for attacking Benatar)
Although I have to agree that it is evidence and this kind of "logic" can help, it's not something to say out loud to try to convince people.

AN is not everything Benatar says and agrees.
>vaguely true
He still agrees with it being true.
>causes harm
In the current state of the world maybe true, but the goal is to reduce suffering. To eliminate suffering.

>cannot prove the aggregate falls more towards suffering than pleasure
Not the point. AN doesn't quantify anything. Quantifying is sort of a gateway. (and because you can not prove it doesn't mean it's not generally true, see >>21805517, unless you throw intuition out of the window.)
But finally, it's all about the asymmetry. Disagreeing with the asymmetry is not human intuition. If you disagree that lack of pain and pleasure is better than some pain and some pleasure then we have nothing further to discuss. I can't convince you of a specific tautology and neither can you. It comes from logic and or intuition. But classic philosophy, where it's moral to create suffering if you can create pleasure, that is what I find morally repugnant. AN (or negative utilitarianism) is the only way I can see which completely negates suffering with no exceptions. Everything else theoretically permits torture and the suffering of beings. I can't agree with that. If what it takes to stop a machine that causes a large amount of suffering over time is a small amount of suffering now it's logical/moral to take the loss. Existence is flawed.

NU means to destroy the world if there is the possibility of suffering. No matter what pleasure there may be. Even if everyone is happy all the time but someone stubs their toe. Since there is suffering, and there should be no suffering, we should work towards that.
I don't know about your qualified experts. Common people would agree that reducing suffering is more important than increasing pleasure. That comes from intuition.
However, they (like you) cannot fathom consequentialism. They think it's extreme because they are programmed to think they are special and unique. We are not.

>>21808566
stop feeding the troll

Don't reply to it.

>>21808569
i think its a retard, im just trying to do a good thing
other people can read it too

the natalist has to either embrace pain = absurdity
or go full ad homing

>>21808566
>AD HOM!
It isn't an ad hom you absolute retard. Again, perception and worldview are directly related to how one interprets the quality of life argument. I'm not arguing Benatar is a manipulative Jew therefore his argments are wrong (which would be an example of an ad hom). What I am saying is that antinatalists have been demonstrated to suffer from personality disorders and mental illness, these things directly affect perception/worldview, and therefore the manner in which they construe the quality of life argument is relevant within this context. That's it. It's not an ad hom, retard.

I hate to be one of those faggots who screeches about INFORMAL fallacies (i.e. like you) but what you're doing is known as the fallacy-fallacy. Even if I were to argue that arguments concerning antinatalism should be dismissed solely because it's proponents tend to have psychopathic/machivellian tendancies and depression, which I'm not, this would not diminish the fact that these things affect perception/worldview and we are discussing an argument specifically related to how one uses perception to interpret the world. You're a moron.
>He still agrees with it being true
That's cope. When pressed all he can say is that it's "vaguely" true. I can say the counterarguments are also vaguely true. It comes down to the fact the quality of life argument is subjective. Someone prone to negative ideation, removed from the norm of how the majority of people experience life, isn't a good point of reference by which to validate the base level of quality of life. Simple as.
>AN doesn't quantify anything
It can't quantify because it makes a subjective argument relating to quality of life and retreats to abstraction and tautology when it's BTFO. You can't quantify the aggregate of life experence and sorry "generally true" isn't good enough if the conclusion of your argument is extreme. I can say it's generally true that quality of life has been improving (complete with real-world examples) and I can also give examples of individuals who suffered immensely but are still thankful that they exist.
>blah blah blah
Your argument is subjective and unquantifiable. The logic you follow is consistent with morally repugnant outcomes.
Your conclusions are extreme to the point of being absurd. Antinatalism is a foolish ideology and anyone who self-indoctrinates into it is a fucking fool. Simple as.

>>21797139
Why wont antinatalists kill themselves already these people are so fucking annoying and retarded.

>>21808569
>>21808576
>>21808595
You retards need to learn the difference between formal fallacies and informal fallacies. Once you do that maybe you can understand why Benatar's arguments constitute an ideological schema and not le UNREFUTABLE philosophy. Fuck you're stupid.

>>21808620
nigger im not a professional philosopher, but I don't need to follow through "formal philosophy" to know that pain sucks.
ill let other more educated future antinatalists like benatar do the philosophical heavy lifting.

>>21808614
Go read ad homs definition again.
>blah blah life is subjective
Yea. So we don't discuss it? Ok, so don't. Retard.
>It can't quantify...
agreeing with me
>good enough is not good!
so we choose the bad?
>individuals who suffered immensely but are thankful they are alive
No shit, I can cut off the limbs from an animal and it would still eat and breathe. It's programmed to.
>you are le extremist
>you are le immoral

btfo go suck a dick while i fuck ur mom dumb bitch. i bet you'd enjoy that and so would she. i bet if you got tortured for 90 years then got to eat a nice cake it would be worth it

>hurrr durrr u cant prove nothing
RETARD ALERT CLASS
im done with u im out of good faith, youre a dumb bitch retard. real
>>21808620
>mass human intuition of the most moral philosophy is not enough...i need le mathematical proofs

Reality is horrifying if you think about it too much.

>>21808687
i cant stop thinking about it, my reality is terrifying all the time.

>>21808686
>I can't describe why it's an ad hom
Because it isn't one.
>YOU AGREE WITH ME!
No, I said initially that it was unquantifiable and you tried to state it doesn't quatifiy anything. You then ignored what I had said about the fact it is qualitative and subjective (i.e. that's what's known as being a disingenuous retard).
>blah blah blah
Not reading the rest. Have fun trying to convince the world all life is miserable in order to cope with the fact you're a pathetic loser.

>>21807799
This is one of those books that I could see still being relevant in a hundred, two hundred, three hundred, etc. years.

>>21804812
This is one of the dumbest things I’ve ever seen. You can’t experience being dead, because obviously you have to be alive to experience things. That doesn’t magically translate to infinite life.

It’s like trying to record your camera reaching 0% battery using a mirror. Just because you can’t catch it hitting 0% on the recording, doesn’t mean that your camera has infinite battery.

>man from south africa develops profound dislike for humanity
Huh. They tend to have that effect on people, don't they?

>>21808729
you are literally mentally retarded. go read ad hom definition again, protip i typed it out here for your retarded ass.
>>21808304
>unquantifiable vs doesnt quantify anything
epic wordplay my guy
>noooooo u ar subjective
lmfao go study maths nigger if u want facts. this is a discussion of minds that can handle subjective ideas. unfortunately you are a retarded, lowly animal beast.

>>21808911
>antinatalists are prone to personality disorder and mental illness
>personality disorder and depression have direct influence on perception/worldview
>perception/worldview is directly related to the quality of life argument
>this provides context to the antinatalist belief system
You can't explain why it's an ad hom because it isn't one, retard. Simple as.

>>21808929
It’s an ad hom because you aren’t actually pointing out what is distorted about their quality of life assessment.

People always think that antinatalism = utilitarianism, but it’s not really. Reproducing causes suffering, no matter how much happiness comes with it. It’s not ok to punch someone in the face and then give them $100. Same deal.

It must suck being an antinatalist while having a breeding fetish.

>>21808929
ohhhh so it's context to the belief system? it's not a fucking argument against it? it has very little to do with it? thank you for clearing that up. so you have no point. jesus fucking christ cant believe it took like 15 times of me writing ad hom for your retarded ass to realize that you have no fucking argument.

>>21808962
antinat = negative utilitarianism
>>21808965
its theorized you can breed if your children will be antinats too, they can spread the message or if it will help you sociopolitically, greater good and a

>>21808956
This was elaborated upon in previous posts alongside the fact that the quality of life argument is subjective, admitted by Benatar to only be "vaguely" true, and is unquantifiable in terms of conclusive evidence one way or another. It was also pointed out antinatalists are advocating for an extreme conclusion based on their beliefs and that repugnant moral outcomes are consistent with the interpretation set forth by antinatalists. Alongside this there is the tendency of antinatalists to disingenuously retreat to tautological grounds, that is attempting to assert monopolization on the interpretation of tautological parameters, in lieu of meeting counter narratives that are (at least) as valid as those they set out.
>>21808966
>perception is a key element in Benatar's quality of life argument
>personality disorder/mental illness affects perception
>antinatalists have a pronounced tendency toward personality disorder/mental illness
>those with personality disorders/mental illness are less equiped to measure what quality of life means for the general populace
Keep crying about ad homs, faggot. The above isn't a fallacy and the only thing you've proven is you yourself shouldn't breed regardless of antinatalism.

>>21809023
you are such a fucking broken record. if this is a bot very well done. you have like 4 retarded points you keep rephrasing. you have no fucking reading comprehension and cant understand definitions. how can you not understand what ad hom is??? you are a fucking joke go look up what ad hom is. no matter how much bullshit you put in, if you attack the author instead of the work its an ad hom. it has no fucking place in an argument
its amazing how dumb you are i thought you understood here >>21808929
but backtracked somehow???
holy

>>21808438
But seriously, why don't they just kill themselves?

>>21809105
Because suicide and living is for the weak. No matter which one you choose, you will always remain a faggot.

>>21809075
>loses argument
>keeps sperging about logical fallacies
>doesn't realize he's making a fallacy-fallacy
It isn't a fallacy and you continue to avoid acknowleging the context. I accept your concession.

>>21809105
The rules concerning nonexistence being preferable to existence conveniently change once they're alive. They'll still avoid acknowledging how this proves existence has value though. Antinatalists are retards.

>>21809222
dumb fucking insufferable sperg nigger
this is ad hominem
A makes a claim x, B asserts that A holds a property that is unwelcome, and hence B concludes that argument x is wrong
or as you put it
ANTINATALIST makes claim ANTINATALISM, (you) assert that ANTINATALIST is depressive, and hence ANTINATALIDM IS WRONG
do you genuinely not see it? if not im done here, you are literally retarded or im getting trolled hard
i jest a lot with insults but this is a serious lack of intelligence
you people should go work in a farm instead of discussing ethics
>>21809244
strawman

>>21809302
>>21809123
>UHHH EXCUSE ME LOGIC SAYS I AM RIGHT
All this thread is doing is convincing me logic is gay

>>21809805
lol

>>21807223
You need to be 18+ to post here.

>>21809889
ikr
>>21810215
t.breeder