/lit/ - Literature

>>21792264
Parents.
A child does not get to choose what books they read or are read to them, parents choose that. The same parents who that that D&D would turn their kid into a satanist or playing music backwards made the devil talk. They buy safe media so that is what gets primarily made.
However, you can always choose to read your kids the actual classics. Just be prepared to answer their questions. Kids always have a lot of questions

>>21792264
They weren't originally for children and children only. The collection and commodification of folklore and fables outside of academic interest is to blame. Pastime and oral history became product.

>>21792264
disney

>>21792264
>"He then asks for more and more favours, eventually asking to sleep with the princess in her bed. She throws him angrily against the wall, and he turns into a prince."
This is actually fucking hilarious lol.

>>21792406
>>21792264
Disney didn’t take Sun, Moon, and Talia and remove the rape and pregnancy. That’s not the case. Disney’s Sleeping Beauty isn't based on Sun, Moon, and Talia. It's based on Little Brier Rose.
https://sites.pitt.edu/~dash/grimm050.html
The only change is the number of wise women and the amount of time asleep.
Your pic conflates folk tale types with the tales themselves. Folk tales types are classified using the Aarne–Thompson–Uther (ATU) Index. A “type” refers to a unique story or story element. It’s like ancient tv tropes. ATU 328 is "the boy steals the ogre's treasure," ATU 720 is "mother killed me, father ate me."
The Cinderella story is so widespread that Cinderella occupies its own ATU type: ATU 510A
https://fairy-folk-tale.fandom.com/wiki/ATU_510A:_Cinderella
>By 1893 there was already so many variants of this tale subtype that English scholar Marian Roalfe Cox published Cinderella: 345 Variants of Cinderella, Catskin and Cap O' Rushes, an inventory of not only alomost every Cinderella variant published untill then, but also of ATU 510B, 511 and 923. The first volume of Anmerkungen zu den Kinder- und Hausmärchen der Brüder Grimm, written by German scholar Johannes Bolte in collaboration with Slovak scholar Jiří Polívka, first published in 1913, a compartive study of every Grimm's fairy tale with all the variants published untill then, included a chapter dedicated to Cinderella, that included all the versions registered by Cox, along some new ones published between those years. A new register of every Cinderella variant published untill then, titled The Cinderella Cycle, was published in 1951, this time done by Swedish scholar Anna Birgitta Rooth, reaching a total of more than seven hundred variants.
ATU 410 is "The Sleeping Beauty," stories in which a princess is forced into an enchanted sleep and is later awakened. Sun, Moon, and Talia is an ATU 410 story, so is Little Brier Rose, so is The Glass Coffin.

For anyone that cares, Paletti has several of the Grimm Brothers' stories in the original archaic german. There is a glossary in the back for the archaic terms. I find it interesting that some of the more archaic terms made their way into english but were generally abandoned by german speakers. I believe that they did fewer than 20 stories, though.

>>21792331
It doesn't matter.

>>21792276
Seems accurate.

>>21792264
Little mermaid goes hard wtf
>endure hell
>get replaced
>disappear
god damn

>>21792264
The frog never asked for any favors - only that to which was agreed in the original bargain.

>>21792276
But why are modern parents so much more castrated compared to parents in the 1800s?

>>21793342
A lot of it is social conditioning fostered by government and big business. The same people that gave us ''better safe than sorry'' rather than ''he who dares, wins''. Some of it hinges on laziness and lack of caring. Most childrens books purchased today are purchased off of the top of a websearch list. Further, most parents either think that reading classics out of a legit volume is somehow more difficult that wading through a pile of garbage tier books on the living room floor. We are so far detached that many people just do not know any better anymore. Part of it is probably due to the small amount of children that each parent has. If you have several children then you can improve along the way. If you only have one then you only have one shot to get everything as right as possible.

>>21792276
"Safe media". And then they plug them to>>21792406 which literally pushes homosexuality, pedophilia, zoophilia, witchcraft

>>21792264
Western of society is filled with a bunch of pussies and faggots.

>>21793682
Third worlders prefer wholesome media, not edgy media.

>>21793687
Define ''wholesome'' and ''edgy'', please.

>>21793639
I don't know about homosexuality, but some old fairy tales promoted bestiality and witchcraft.

>>21792264
gynocratic expansionism

>>21792331
>not originally for children
The title by the Grimm Brothers was literally "Children's and Household Tales."

>>21793741
All the data shows the harsher life becomes for a demographic the MORE they gravitate toward the wholesome and the LESS they seek out the gritty and "realistic".
They gravitate toward the "edgy" in faux impoverished areas like India or Mexico where they still have multigenerational households, populating multigenerational villages, where their ethnic and racial spirit is strong and outward bound.

Look at a place like Haiti or Appalachia, they prefer "wholesome" to """""""""""""""""""real"""""""""""""""""" edge.
Third world countries arent in a spiritual sink where they consume anti-depressants like candy.
>struggled with getting food
This is not a struggle, this is something humans evolved to do, and evolved to grapple with for the entire existence of their genus.
Even animals struggle daily to find substance.
>went through gang violence
The vast majority of thirdies do not actually experience any form of gang violence, and again humans evolved to handle violence.
Go to a prison where the prisoners are tired, hungry, and always on edge, they uniformly prefer wholesome media to edgy media.
>they all loved dark edgy content
that is because their lives are quite good and they live better than the ancient kings who owned swarthy dasa hide.
personal anecdotes are not reflective of reality, tyrese.
literally one google search
>https://hbr.org/2021/10/the-psychology-behind-why-we-love-or-hate-horror

Maybe you should actually investigate a topic if you want to speak on it, instead of peddling "lived experience" as a generalized trend.

Also I am skeptical you have ever spoken to anyone who at the time of their speaking was struggling to eat, work, live, or escape bondage.
People are not characters written to be a consistent foil to one another, they are dynamic and can prefer different things at different times, thirdies will enjoy more edgy films when times are easy for them.

Uniformly humans always prefer the wholesome to the edgy when their lives become toilsome.
They are popular in places where people are more well off because humans want and to an extent need certain levels of anxiety.
I know that completely shatters your view because your utopia has no anxiety.
But humans evolved in particular conditions and they will seek those conditions out even if they have to create them to their own detriment.
You are a psychologylet.

>>21793788
>personal anecdotes are not reflective of reality, tyrese.
>literally one google search
>Maybe you should actually investigate a topic if you want to speak on it, instead of peddling "lived experience" as a generalized trend.
>Also I am skeptical you have ever spoken to anyone who at the time of their speaking was struggling to eat, work, live, or escape bondage.
>I know that completely shatters your view because your utopia has no anxiety.
>You are a psychologylet.
Wow. Truly amazing. You were able to derive all of this about me from -
>Define ''wholesome'' and ''edgy'', please.
The absolute state of freudians.

>>21792264
The loss of art is the real tragedy. The illustrator's if the late 19/early 20th century were incredible and I find the dullness of image in all instances outside some form of digital pornography to be society-killing.

>>21793750
>some old fairy tales promoted bestiality and witchcraft
Please, elaborate.

>>21793910
Whenever I think about illustrations, I am reminded of the Pickwick Papers illustration incident with Dickens. Do you know the backstory on that?

>>21792264
Protestants.

>>21793911
imagine being such a pathetic worm that you create this sign.

if anything, intentionally not making a sign, or talking about it at all, would be more of a "pwn" to her ex.

if i were her ex i would just find it hilarious that i still have this much of a hold over her

>>21793865
>No argument

>>21793952
>No argument
Against what? I agreed with almost all of the content of your post except the anger. My primary critique of your post is that it never properly addressed the question regarding definitions of ''edgy'' or ''wholesome'' as originally requested.

>>21793296
I think it's supposed to teach women not to go all in on men they know little about.

>>21793941
It's a classic case of not knowing one's self. They mistake their own coping and seething for strength and self-worth.

>>21794069
Not him, but that is a good point. Further elaboration by the parent is the better part of the story-telling experience. Pedants are calling this interaction ''Total Participant Involvement''.

>>21794069
It's supposed to be christfaggotry and she dies so she can buy a ticket into heaven.

>>21794108
Do you have evidence to support this claim, or are you just studying the way of the blade?

>>21793788
>Uniformly humans always prefer the wholesome to the edgy when their lives become toilsome.
What a wild claim. There is no uniformly. Different people like different things.
There have always been some people that like macabre or edgy subjects.

>>21794118
That is literally what happens. She wants a magic christian soul, but she can't get one because the prince doesn't marry her, but because she dies intead of killing him she gets the loophole ticket into heaven as a friendly ghost and is thrilled. Also it turns out getting into heaven is kind of a gacha game?

>>21794135
Firstly, it does, it demonstrates the natural flow of Man is to pursue balance and harmony, too much ease, he must make himself uneasy, too much unease, he will put himself at ease with Rapunzel.
Simple as.
Secondly, its not escapism as much it is preference for the opposite of what they have in abundance, its balancing.
it is literally one search, top result, and it refutes your primary contention lmao.
There is an inverse correlation with seeking edgy content and being a struggling thirdie.
Humans, in the roughest, toughest, most trying of times always spoke highly of "Disney" like stories.
it is always in post modern lands where a Culture of Critique develops around the beloved legends.
That alone refutes everything you said, you're just mad because you can not even articulate a counter to it beyond "yeah well maybe I'm not wrong did you think that maybe I'm not wrong"
like shut the fuck up you obsequious shitlib mongreloid. youre like a waterboy for degenerate jewish "critiques".
Tolkien wrote the most idealistic parts of his legendarium in the Trenches of the Somme after losing his closest friends and seeing his countrymen dying in the tens of thousands on foreign soil to an enemy who had no previous idea of threatening their homes.
The greatest works of Russian literature were written by a man who had encountered starvation, war, child-rape, would be proto-Gulag'd, and see his country become a blasted heath losing its independence to two foreign empires.

It is absolutely uniform. This is factual.

>>21793911
You never read the white cat?

>>21794197
Chill man, I'm not even the anon you were originally arguing with. And I'm not sure why you're inserting politics into this, when I said nothing about politics.
I get what you're saying . You are saying that people desire the opposite of what they have, so people in rough conditions don't want art that reminds them of how hard their life is. And people that live comfortably want to be shocked out of their comfort.
That's a fair point with some truth, but I think there are counter-examples. You can still find edgy art made by people that have suffered.
Quiroga wrote a lot of horror and saw a lot of tragedy in his life.

>>21794247
I do not recall. Is it in the Grimm Brothers collection? It does not appear to be. My experience on this topic is generally confined by Aesop and Grimm.

>>21794323
It was a french fairy tale by madame d aulnoy. Her writings predates the work of the brothers Grimm and Perrault.

>>21794309
>I'm not even the anon you were originally arguing with
He was not arguing with me. He was arguing at me. I only asked for clarification regarding terms and he started attacking a position that I never stated.

>>21792264
>tfw nearly 30 and have no idea what the plot of Snow White, Sleeping Beauty, or Beauty and the Beast are despite knowing I've seen them at least once in my childhood at some point
I might actually watch them some day again out of boredom

>>21794247
Blanchette is based and is against bestiality; the whole point was that she could not fuck the guy while she was a cat so she had to find a way to be human

>>21795031
Please, read the original stories. You will be better served.

>>21792264
Can just enjoy the original cat in boots tale. Or at least the one I read where there's a poor miller who dies and leaves his 3 possesions to his 3 sons
>Eldest gets the mill
>Middle (or youngest) gets an as and some land
>Youngest gets the cat and a pair of old boots
Youngest then tries to eat the cat and sell the boots because of poverty before the cat intercedes for itself and comes up with a better arrangement. So he puts the boots on and goes on walking upright to give his owner a kingdom.

>>21795350
Can't I*
Fuck.
>>21795036
I'd be as confused as that prince in that situation.

>>21795168
>>21794603
the creator of the image has not read the actual stories, nor do they realize the Brothers Grimm were editing the stories to make them coherent as they were folktales told differently in different regions of Germany and Denmark.
Furthermore, Grimms heard stories from times when they were literal folktales being formed while proper "Disney" Narratives were unfolding such as the Norwegian Crusade.
Nobody can actually name what censorship or what fairytales had these themes in them. Because they never existed.

>>21794309
That's what it was, a survey by research analysts delving into the psychology of why thirdies arent edgelords while affluent Westerners are.

If what you said was true, there would be a positive correlation between Thirdies and Horror, there isnt, therefore we can conclude there is either something fundamental missing from your explanation or you are just outright wrong.

>>21794247
No, they didnt have such themes, actually read the original stories. I keep mentioning the older stories and you conveniently gloss over them because despite the times they came from being abhorrent they are filled with thematic elements more similar to a Disney film than a Serbian film.

>>21793342
The sanitisation is not modern. OP pic talks about the 'original' Grimm brothers versions above. A lot of the sanitising was introduced in later editions of Grimm's fairy tales, because already in 1812 parents complained that the first edition versions were unsuitable for children. It was the Grimms themselves who made the mother a stepmother and who removed all references to sex.

>>21793927
No, what happened anon?

>>21795940
Dickens was never contracted to write the novel. The primary consideration was the illustrations. He was contracted to write captions for illustration that were given to him, and nothing more. For the first couple, he did just that. By the third or so he outwrote the illustrations and stayed ahead of the artist for the remainder. The importance of the text evolved in the complicated dynamic and the publisher acceded to Dickens. The illustrator continued to illustrate Pickwick Papers as a secondary role.

>>21792264
/co/ had this thread a while ago, right after Christmas. I know because I was in it
https://desuarchive.org/co/thread/134708079/
Did you ever take my advice of gifting your family members copies of these world famous books? Cause I gotta be honest, not knowing who these guys are is a giant blindspot to have, they are world famous

>>21792264
Disney didn’t take Sun, Moon, and Talia and remove the rape and pregnancy. That’s not the case. Disney’s Sleeping Beauty isn't based on Sun, Moon, and Talia. It's based on Little Brier Rose.
https://sites.pitt.edu/~dash/grimm050.html
The only change is the number of wise women and the amount of time asleep.
Your pic conflates folk tale types with the tales themselves. Folk tales types are classified using the Aarne–Thompson–Uther (ATU) Index. A “type” refers to a unique story or story element. It’s like ancient tv tropes. ATU 328 is "the boy steals the ogre's treasure," ATU 720 is "mother killed me, father ate me."
The Cinderella story is so widespread that Cinderella occupies its own ATU type: ATU 510A
https://fairy-folk-tale.fandom.com/wiki/ATU_510A:_Cinderella
>By 1893 there was already so many variants of this tale subtype that English scholar Marian Roalfe Cox published Cinderella: 345 Variants of Cinderella, Catskin and Cap O' Rushes, an inventory of not only alomost every Cinderella variant published untill then, but also of ATU 510B, 511 and 923. The first volume of Anmerkungen zu den Kinder- und Hausmärchen der Brüder Grimm, written by German scholar Johannes Bolte in collaboration with Slovak scholar Jiří Polívka, first published in 1913, a compartive study of every Grimm's fairy tale with all the variants published untill then, included a chapter dedicated to Cinderella, that included all the versions registered by Cox, along some new ones published between those years. A new register of every Cinderella variant published untill then, titled The Cinderella Cycle, was published in 1951, this time done by Swedish scholar Anna Birgitta Rooth, reaching a total of more than seven hundred variants.
ATU 410 is "The Sleeping Beauty," stories in which a princess is forced into an enchanted sleep and is later awakened. Sun, Moon, and Talia is an ATU 410 story, so is Little Brier Rose, so is The Glass Coffin.

>>21796322
>Disney
Sounds like you're cherry-picking the most defensible cases. One of the first things Disney did was make Hercules not a bastard, Zeus not a philanderer, and then have to come up with another pile of bullshit to explain why Hercules isn't a god then. I defy you to find a non-Disney telling of Hercules where Zeus and Hera are good people, and caring parents, and happily married, and Hercules is their legitimate son.

>>21796391
I disagree, you’re the one who’s cherry-picking here. You listed six examples, Cinderella, Snow White, Cinderella, The Little Mermaid, The Princess And The Frog, and Tangled. All six Disney movies are based on fairytales, all represented by ATU types, which have been retold and retold across time, some in ways quite similar/identical with the Disney movies, some in ways radically different.
When you realized that all six of the examples you yourself provided, you had to go looking for another example.
>w-what about Hercules?
I don’t know, were we talking about Hercules? This is the first I’m seeing it referenced in this thread. I’m still trying to figure out why it looked like Vegas.
Ancient Greek religion was around for a long time, part of a rich and vibrant culture, and their understanding of the gods certainly differs across time.
You ask for Greek myth in which Zeus is a good person? Zeus was their main god anon, lots of people had nice things to say about him. What about the Hymn to Zeus by Callimachus, where he is called just, fair, the giver of good things, and the giver of safety? Or how about the Stoics, such as Zeno, who viewed Zeus as the transcendent omnipresent deity, our soul being the divine spark of Zeus, which eventually returns to him in the end?
Did you ever learn any of that in your study of Greek myth, or did you just stop at “haha I heard le zeus le raeped a lot of le greek goddesses”?

>>21796510
Small typo, that first “Cinderella” should say “Sleeping Beauty”

>>21796391
I disagree, you’re the one who’s cherry-picking here. You listed six examples, Sleeping Beauty, Snow White, Cinderella, The Little Mermaid, The Princess And The Frog, and Tangled. All six Disney movies are based on fairytales, all represented by ATU types, which have been retold and retold across time, some in ways quite similar/identical with the Disney movies, some in ways radically different.
When you realized that all six of the examples you yourself provided failed, you had to go looking for another example.
>w-what about Hercules?
I don’t know, were we talking about Hercules? This is the first I’m seeing it referenced in this thread. I’m still trying to figure out why it looked like Vegas.
Ancient Greek religion was around for a long time, part of a rich and vibrant culture, and their understanding of the gods certainly differs across time.
You ask for Greek myth in which Zeus is a good person? Zeus was their main god anon, lots of people had nice things to say about him. What about the Hymn to Zeus by Callimachus, where he is called just, fair, the giver of good things, and the giver of safety? Or how about the Stoics, such as Zeno, who viewed Zeus as the transcendent omnipresent deity, our soul being the divine spark of Zeus, which eventually returns to him in the end?
Did you ever learn any of that in your study of Greek myth, or did you just stop at “haha I heard le zeus le raeped a lot of le greek goddesses”?

>>21796517
>All six Disney movies are based on fairytales, all represented by ATU types, which have been retold and retold across time, some in ways quite similar/identical with the Disney movies.
You have failed to demonstrate this. None of the links you provided have an identical story to the Disney movie. Actually bring one to the table and then we'll talk.
>When you realized that all six of the examples you yourself provided failed, you had to go looking for another example.
They didn't. You had to search long and hard to find even a few variants of the story that remotely resembled the Disney versions, and even then there are major differences. Show me one that is identical to the Disney movie.
>You ask for Greek myth in which Zeus is a good person? Zeus was their main god anon, lots of people had nice things to say about him.
People having nice things to say =/= him being a good person, especially when present day morals are retroactively fitted onto his character (which is what Disney did).
>What about the Hymn to Zeus by Callimachus, where he is called just, fair, the giver of good things, and the giver of safety? Or how about the Stoics, such as Zeno, who viewed Zeus as the transcendent omnipresent deity, our soul being the divine spark of Zeus, which eventually returns to him in the end?
Exceptions to how a character is depicted don't disprove a rule. Zeus in the majority of all Greek mythology was made to be an asshole. That's how the vast majority of Greek myth depicted him. Again, you're cherry picking.
>Did you ever learn any of that in your study of Greek myth, or did you just stop at “haha I heard le zeus le raeped a lot of le greek goddesses”?
Considering your research started at the most incredible stretching you could possible do, combined with links that don't actually prove anything you've said, it seems clear that I'm vastly more educated on this topic than you are.

>>21796535
I’m noticing a fundamental misreading within your response. I’m going to give you a second chance though. Please reread my posts, and then your posts, and see if you can find where this misreading is. If you can’t find it, I’ll quit arguing with you. If you figure out what I’m referring to, I’ll talk to you as an equal. But I’m not going to waste my time writing essays for an anon who can’t read.

>>21796561
Or you could quit being a pompous ass, pretending that you know what yours talking about and explain what I'm misreading. It's obvious that you want to keep arguing for no reason, so explain to me the misreading.

>>21796517
>This is the first I’m seeing it referenced in this thread
That's because it wasn't one of your cherry-picked examples.
>You ask for Greek myth in which Zeus is a good person?
No, I asked you to find me a "variant across time and cultures" where Disney wasn't the author and Hercules was Hera's son.
>just, fair, the giver of good things, and the giver of safety?
None of this has anything to do with Zeus sleeping around, which he was infamous for. Disney deleted this (incredibly well-known) aspect of his character because it wouldn't play well to a middle-America audience, and then had to make a bunch of changes to make that make sense, and then a bunch more changes to make their changes make sense.

>>21796587
Do you think I am the OP?

>>21796592
Are you going to stop changing the subject?

>>21796592
>>21796592
If >>21796517 is a reply to >>21796391 then >>21796517 needs to address >>21796391. >>21796391 is a perfectly relevant reply to >>21796322 observing that it's making a logical error by saying that "examples of X not doing Y show that X does not do Y", as if I find a bunch of examples of Tom Brady not playing football that means that Tom Brady doesn't play football. Hercules is Tom Brady playing football. No amount of examples of Tom Brady going shopping or Tom Brady eating lunch serve as counterexamples to Tom Brady being caught playing football. You need to show that what Tom Brady's been caught doing isn't football.

You don't want to talk about Hercules because it's such a slam-dunk, that's fine. But don't try to make some kind of "you don't have standing" argument, this isn't fucking reddit.

Bump

>>21792276
Would you really want to explain to your 3 year old what it means for a King to rape the sleeping beauty?
Aren't fairytales supposed to be wholesome?

>>21793514
>due to the small amount of children that each parent has. If you have several children then you can improve along the way
Good post and good observation anon

>>21797639
Pick a different story for the three year old child. Eventually, it will become appropriate.

OP might be a genuine schizo
Look at this shit
>>>/wsr/1330306
He has been copying and pasting this thread onto another board
(If it’s not OP, I apologize. An anon is doing this regardless though)

>>21799150
Biggest lel. What a loser. It would be really ironic if it were you. Doubly so if you and I were the same poster. Down the rabbit hole.

>>21795898
I don't even know what you disagree with or are mad about..
I was just giving counter examples of artists who had bad lives and still made edgy or dark art.
There is probanly some truth to your premise that those that live in comfort seek out edgy art.

maybe cuz visual depictions arouse different intensity of feelings than simple text. Even books made for adults are neutered in their film versions because some imagery would just be too confronting

>>21799270
Only one artist?

>>21792264
>mfw no tower whore to hang out with ;_;

>>21794143
>Also it turns out getting into heaven is kind of a gacha game?

wait until you find out about justified sinners. thats some crazy shit.

>>21792264
Because they are marketed towards children. Not hard to grasp unless you are obtuse