/lit/ - Literature

>>21722204
Because it's about giving up and just doing what's necessary. If you get sick and you're going to die, don't worry about it. You go mugged? Whatever, you'll kill the muggers when you get the chance. The empire is falling apart? Dude, I'm growing some cabbages right now.
That's the essence of stoicism.

>>21722204
Ask James Stockton pussy

>>21722204
>Everything is about happiness and feeling good >What is contentness
>What is virtue and morality

If they were wise, they'd wisen up and get a fucking better job

>>21722219
>implying there is any difference between happiness and contentment
What does acting virtuously even get you if it's not happiness or contentment?

>>21722249
here we go with pointless fucking semantics again

Here is stoicism boiled down for all you retards who get caught up in semantic arguments.
>Kill yourself or deal with it.

>>21722263
Wouldn't the semantic argument be that happiness and contentment are different?
Let's fuck off Stoicism. What does being virtuous actually get you if it's not contentment or happiness? Why the fuck should I run around like a Muppet, if it's not going to make me happy/content?

>>21722204
>How can acting virtuously (with courage, temperance, justice, wisdom) lead the eternal minimum wage worker to happiness?
it can't.

>>21722204
Time to read some IWW and CIO history.

>>21722204
Yes.

"Virtues" as a whole was always a luxury of the rich. Poorfags cannot concern themselves with some faggy notion of living beautifully and with honor, nigga I got bills to pay and two jobs to work

>Fang Yuan slowly stood up and hesitantly walked to the door.
>At this time, Gu Master Big Beard spoke once again: “You must have read <<The Legends of Ren Zu>>. There is a chapter which tells the story of the miniman walking out of Ordinary Abyss.”
>“We are all minimen, and we all want to walk out of Ordinary Abyss.”
>“You must continue on, Fang Yuan.”
>“Continue living, continue persevering.”
>“It is a pity that all my Gu were destroyed in the battle. This is my advice to you, my only gift. To us minor characters, crying is of no use, no one will hear us even if we shout, we can only persevere by ourselves.”
>“Persevere until you accomplish great feats, become extraordinary. Either that, or embrace death.”

>>21722204
If you live in America and you’re complaining about wages you’re a FUCKING RETARD. Go make more money. If your response to these words is anything but going out and making more money then re-read them again until you understand

>>21722285
stop trying to 'get' something from life, it doesnt owe you shit.

>>21722285
just read the fucking books my god you lazy pos

>>21722664
>Hurrr, indeed, durrr. Verily.

>>21722204
read the Republic

>>21722204
don't think about the virtues as a descriptive action plan to happiness. virtue ethics is about cultivating the right character in such a way that happiness will come to you naturally and you naturally choose the right actions.
and where do you cultivate character? most people and aristotle too would say that you devellop character in relation to the outside world. but as a stoic you have to first realize that everything that is outside you, is fundamentally beyond your control and should not concern you on a fundamental level bc the things that really matter like happiness, pain etc always happen on the inside.
a millionaire playboy can be depressed on the inside and a mcdonalads wagie can be blissfull.
and this is the liberating insight of stoicism it is therefore not the outside that matters but the inside we can control.
if you start working on your character and you become virtous, wise and happy regardless of the outside world.
>>21722211
and no, this is not about "giving up" it is about becoming outcome independant. you will not be able to change your lot in life if you are fearful and in pain. and what if it won't work out? you will be just fine, independant of everything.

>>21722204


«HAPPINESS» IS AN ILLUSION; «HAPPINESS» IS NOT THE END OF VIRTUE; STOP READING THIRD HAND, «SELFHELP» SOURCES WITH A «PROTESTANTISTIC» SKEWED BIAS, AND READ THE ACTUAL WORKS OF ACTUAL STOICIST PHILOSOPHERS.

>>21722519
Poorfags and normalfags are retarded, overrated animals.

>>21722204
>How can acting virtuously (with courage, temperance, justice, wisdom) lead the eternal minimum wage worker to happiness?

He who says [that one should die naturally] does not realize that he blocks off the road of freedom. The eternal law did nothing better than giving us one entrance into life, but many exits. Should I await the cruelty of disease or man, when I am able to exit through the middle of tortures and shake off my adversities?

But you know this, to how many men it (death) is useful, how many men it frees from tortures, destitution, ailments, torments, and weariness. We are in the power of no one, when death is in our power.

Freedom is in sight. This is the prize I am working for. What is freedom, you ask? To be a slave to no situation, to no necessity, to no chance events; to force fortune onto an even playing field. On that day when I know that I am more powerful, fortune will have no power. Shall I put up with her, when death is under my control?

The wise man presents an awesome spectacle. Knowing, as he does, the difference between virtue and vice, good and evil, and things that are indifferent, and knowing his own strength, both physical and mental, the wise man is able to withstand any amount of torture, illness, poverty, and pain with a firm and tranquil mind, and has no fear of death at all. He feels physical pain, but his mind does not collapse: he will never view any of these things as bad. The wise man may commit suicide under such conditions, but not to escape pain. He will exit only when it seems right for him to do so, when he is sure that the sufferings he is undergoing make virtuous action impossible. The wise man is always free because he is never forced to do anything against his will. Suicide plays a role in the freedom of the wise man because it allows him to exit when he should. The wise man, not fearing death as an evil and knowing that he can commit suicide at any time it is called for, is completely free and in control of his own fate.

>>21723248
Not entirely wrong. I will readily admit that poverty put a damper on my potential. I gave up on many pursuits because they were either out of reach to begin with, or too risky to attempt without a financial buffer. As a result, I'm not Great. I post on 4chan with you lot.

>>21723144
>STOP READING THIRD HAND, «SELFHELP» SOURCES WITH A «PROTESTANTISTIC» SKEWED BIAS
Don't talk that way about Aristotle.

>>21722204
It is always to a person's benefit to more virtuous than less no matter their circumstances or potential.

>>21722211
The essence of Stoicism is not killing muggers when you get the chance, you imbecile.

>>21723279
I'm sure the billionaires of the world got there by being heckin virtuous

Stoicism is a philosophy that consists of rational analysis as well as practical self-development. It has historically been appreciated by rich as well as poor people, by former slaves as well as by emperors.
It's main goal is living agreement with reason,which is supposed to be at the center of human nature, and thus living in harmony with the cosmos as a whole.
The way to living in agreement with your own reason is by cultivating virtues (which can be understood by reason). Virtues are seen as the characteristics you would want to develop if you listen to your own reason and are not led astray by your affects.
The affects are feelings, appetites, aversions etc born out of a failure to properly understand yourself and the world. They make you act foolishly, sometimes against your better judgement. If you manage to live according to reason, you get out of the pathetic circle of being thrown around by your own affects, and you can become a tower of strength.

The key insight you need is about what is in your power and what isn't. Is getting a better job in your power or not? That's an empirical question, maybe it is, maybe it isn't. A lot in your life is not your own choosing but just the hand that fate or coincidence dealt for you. These things are not properly yours. They are not products of your reason and virtue. The only thing that is truly yours are your reason and your virtues. Fate or circumstances can place you in any position and make you play any role. You can get mad or desperate about it, but that won't help you, it will only make you feel more miserable about your place in this world. Rage against your parents and your country all you want, it will only destabilize your mind. Can you change your situation? Then do so. You can't? So be the best version of whatever it is that you are. Anyone with reason can cultivate virtues in any situation they find themselves in. Virtue in stoicism is not related to anything you can have by luck or coincidence (of birth, say). You can lead a content life, if you realize what is in your power and act on it. You kind of owe it to reason itself, but it is also the way to find contentment and constancy: happiness for the stoic. So it is also foolish (meaning: based on false judgement, misunderstanding) to seek happiness in what is not yours, for example in worldly belongings, status, the admiration of crowds. Reason will point out to you which values are true and which are false.

That's the universalism of Stoicism and a crucial way in which it differs from Aristotelianism. Aristotle is very clear about how his notion of happiness is just not attainable for ugly people, poor people or slaves. The stoic contends that every man who has reason can cultivate the virtues and thus attain happiness.

>>21722211
I don't want to work and then I am fine with that.

>>21722575
how do

>>21723396
>I don't want to work and then I am fine with that.

Crying about it won't help lol. Man up and make your peace with fate. Crying about it is just as reasonable as throwing a fit against a snowstorm.

Yes. Like socialism, stoicism was an elitist philosophy for the Roman elite.

>>21722204
It was proto-Christianity in the sense that it told slaves it's virtuous to be submissive and meek.

Virtue is the biggest spook of all, it's amazing how many people that you wouldn't necessarily call retarded bought into it. It's just a memetic virus that makes you put other people's interests before your own, but it works so well on some people that they literally die for a meme.

>>21722204
Happiness is not tied to wealth. Stoicism is very clear on that. Have you read any stoic text before posting here?

>>21723745
Why can’t morality be selfish? What is often in your best interest is in the interest of others too. For instance you becoming wealthy will be of benefit to your friends. You being happy will benefit the people around you. You being better is better for all, etc. Why is being selfless moral and not the other way around. N himself said people help those who help themselves.

>>21723836
It definitely can be. If you care about wealth then being poor will make you unhappy.

>>21722204
If any woman tells you she’s into stoicism, feel free to violently RAPE her.
She has no reason to care since the situation is outside her control. The most important things to her are inside, such as her virtues, her character and the way she reacts to situations.
Remember this as you beat her up and shove your cock in her dumb, Aurelius- blabbering mouth.

>>21723975
Individuals can certainly benefit from morality but they can also be victims of it. Clever individuals learn to differentiate between the two and make their moves accordingly, while the dupes buy into the thing wholeheartedly and, for example, lose their limbs for a ribbon and work for minimum wage with nothing to show for it.

Morality is ultimately a set of game rules, and the best way to win is to have everyone play by the rules except yourself.

>>21724008
Except it is within her power to report you to the police or stab you if she gets the chance. I think a lot of women already give in.

>>21722664
Lmao, so what, just sit passively by and die‽ refuse to play with the only thing you'll ever be given?
Bullshit cunt, I'll drain life for everything I can before I Cark it

>>21723373
good thing I didn't say anything about billionaires

>average virtue fan

>>21722204
Stoicism is wholly dependent on belief in the Gods. Lacking that you just get Epicureanism.

>>21723745
Virtue isn't about putting other people's interests first. It's about recognizing that brute perceptions like pain and pleasure are not the final verdict of what your interests are.

>>21722204
Stoicism being reccomended for hedonistic incels as a supposed cure for their cowardly nature that is 100% the reason why they cant get bitches or a better job was a mistake, coward behaviour is a sin for stoics, you already start doing everything wrong, go search for some other ideas who may pat in the head and say is okay to not try or complain endless about the hand you were born with.

>>21724867
What is the final verdict?

>>21724944
The final verdict is he's espousing garbage. Virtues don't bring you anything except a sense of superiority

I think if you were a literate Roman citizen with access to philosophy you were basically an aristocrat or some sort of gentry were engaged in a lifestyle that wasn’t quite as depressing as that of the modern office worker or fulfillment center worker or whatever.

>>21722204
>>21725182
Stoicism literally is Classical Cynicism deradicalised and repackaged for rich dilettantes with plenty of sophisms/copes about why "not being attached" to your villas and slaves and riches is just as good as actually doing away with them and living a simple life.

Even the founding myth of Stoicism is that Zeno was too much of a pussy to remain a follower of Crates, so he came up with his Cynicism Light variety.

>>21725195
You underrate Stoicism, it has a very rich philosophical tradition beyond the meme simplifications of its ethics popular with redditors. Stoic logic and cosmology are fascinating and you have to know Stoic metaphysics and logic to understand much of the development of Hellenistic philosophy sneed.

>>21725277
I have been found out, I was indeed somewhat deliberately and provocatively oversimplifying. Although I would add that the complexity of Stoic thought strikes me as a compensation for the lack of direct praxis of Cynicism (even the Stoics called Cynicism the shortcut to virtue) and despite being interesting got ultimately btfo by the Sceptics.

>>21723745
If you think Nietzsche is against any notion of virtue, you're illiterate.

>>21725353
I never said such a thing, nor do I care about his opinion. I merely used that quote because it pleases me and belongs to me.

>>21724758
No stoic ever said that, you are supposed to do everything in your power to improve your station

>>21725574
For what purpose?

>>21722211
Fpbp

>>21722204
It's not written with proles in mind.
Discounting that their particular relation to the superstructure of society doesn't have an equivalent in classical antiquity there is the much more jarring issue that they are ultimately an appendage to a machine.
It's like expecting your washing machine to have a grasp of higher ideals.

>>21728493
Stoicism was literally invented by a slave

>>21723389
>>21722888
Good posts

>>21722204
>Is Stoicism just a meme for rich people?


A better (rhetorical) question is: why is it that most people who feel compelled to talk about virtues of overcoming are the same ones who have always had readily available failsafe mechanisms provided for them, who get to just lie down and rest whenever things are not going well for them? and yet, paradoxically, as soon as they receive a customized modicum of experience of pure reality, they swiftly change their assortment of denominations, to the point of predictability; how curious & amusing, but also cringeworthy & annoying: ever falling short of the truth, lacking tall order.