/lit/ - Literature

It is not possible to improve at writing.

>>21711595

Motivate me to write. Its 8 pm, I have no plans tonight or tomorrow morning. No reason I can't bang out 1000+ words

>>21711628
F Gardner can do it. Is that motivation enough?

>>21711595
Especially when you outsource your cover and writing to an AI. Now all you need to 'improve' is pattern recognition.

>Did two chapters of dialogue.
>Still too many followers.
Time for a PoV shift!

>>21711673
>read amateur writing
>95% "witty" dialogue or internal commentary of characters, head hopping style
>no idea where they are or what is even going on
>foam-mouth writers pump out 700k words of this shit

Dystopian short (5k words) that pokes fun at the alienating experience of behavioral psych and bureaucracy, especially in academia. What do you think?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1QvoYZicWHfrxhQlQUrDLHaAdqg2OoqwS/view

>>21711650
NTA but when I think of figures like Gardner or Rice Cock Waldun writing books I feel very ashamed about myself.
not gardner, because he looks mentally ill, and as such he gets an advantage in writing, but Waldun... the fact that this pretentious hack wrote more words in a few years than I wrote in my entire life is a bad thing.

Fear of Choking:

https://privatebin.net/?4190c7bc697c03b1#CDnDUJBNMghyMD15RgzjDzu3bZ4gQPxciHnyXoxEoVZf

>>21711595
Fpbp

>>21711764
This is curious. F Gardner does seem like he has some form of insanity. This is painfully obvious from his youtube channel. How on earth did he become the most notable writer to rise out of 4chan? This is somewhat inspiring.

>>21711866
>How on earth did he become the most notable writer to rise out of 4chan?
Because he wrote things he was genuinely interested in and not stupid shit like >>21711774 and >>21711756 which are just made to get (you)s on here.

Went back and did some editing hopefully it is better this time around I think I need to rework the first two paragraphs but otherwise I'm fine with how this one turned out in some places. Now do I actually namedrop aliens/ufos or do I pull some sort fo Walking Dead, or Midnight Mass, type of thing where the word "zombies", and "Vampires", never uttered because those beings don't exist in those universes. Seems to be the recent in thing with horror at the moment

>>21711866
Notable, but in a bad sense. In a "!I never wanted to go to this website and now I want it much less" sense.
>>21711756
I read this. It's alright. I quite enjoyed it and didn't felt like I lost my time after I read it. However, I think it was somewhat short. The middle is lacking, so to speak. Why would I feel that their work is alienating if I don't know what's it alienating them from? I know nothing about their lives outside of work, all I know is that Jon wanted a job somewhere else and he got at whatever he got. No way to empathize. It is competently written and the style is good to write.
>>21711774
I will read this now.

>>21711877
Ummm sweatie, I’m actually seriously interested in everything I write. Quit projecting

>>21711917
>was nothing but
>mass pile
>as if...as if...to the point that...
>what it used to be
This is messier than what it describes. Rewrite it.

>>21711920
Thanks for reading it, anon. I’ll try to fill in some of the gaps and work on implementing more depth to the alienation component.

>>21711920
>It is competently written and the style is good to write.
>stale notes of tobacco clashed with the overcast of cologne as Jon sat stiff against back of an office chair
>competently written
Are you high?

>>21711961
Are you?

>write simplistically
>STOP TELLING
>write more show
>PURPLE AS SHIT!

I don't get it. It's as if people just want.

The cat lowered its belly to the ground. It eyed the mouse gobbling the seeds. The cat inched closer ejecting its claws. The cat sprung to action and in a second grasped the shocked mouse into its paws. It died with a quick bite to the neck. The brought the dead body back to the human who promptly threw it in the trashcan. The cat was sad.

>>21711996
what do you expect from the bucket crab thread

>>21711877
If that were the case, I'd be just as famous as him if not more. My internet e-clout wouldn't be contaminated by spelling and grammar errors.

>>21711996
Anyone who says that listicle shit is a beginner and can be safely ignored

>>21711665
What does using an AI for cover art have to do with writing? I'm a writer, not an illustrator. We can't all be as based as Mervyn Peake and be good at everything

>>21711866
Have you read any of F Gardner? He’s the quintessential 4chan author. Any anon can see that after reading his works. A lot of his stories are about some schizo browsing /x/ and slowly becoming mad and having delusions. He even wrote an entire fucking book about gorillas not being real like that youtube video he made. His books have typos but that’s part of the trade-off when you have a book series that was written by an actual crazy person. It’s no wonder someone as bizarre as F Gardner took off with readers who lurk here.

>>21712008
He's a fivver pajeet and wants $500 for an AI generated art he used.

>>21711996
Captcha: J0NNY

>>21712020
fucking kek. It shows the lack of intelligence for everyone bitching about Gardner's comma usage. We're dealing with a schizophrenic who is somehow capable of consistently pumping out balls to the wall insane pulp horror. I for one am thankful that such a man even exists and can provide such lunacy.

>>21712022
Look at this asshole. $100 for something his computer shat out

https://www.etsy.com/listing/1338956984/custom-ai-generated-art?gpla=1&gao=1&&utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=shopping_us_-art_and_collectibles-domestic_low&utm_custom1=_k_edcbfe1b638e1e6e643b9de1ab800177_k_&utm_content=bing_412371534_1305120600158729_81570101298775_pla-4585169652921505:pla-4585169652921505_c__1338956984&utm_custom2=412371534&msclkid=edcbfe1b638e1e6e643b9de1ab800177

>>21711996
You should try templating this over a passage from a published piece of work, imitating its grammatical structure. Then you'll see how the structure should be developed.

e.g here's a random passage by Hemingway
>She was sitting up now. My arm was around her and she was leaning back against me, and we were quite calm. She was looking into my eyes with that way she had of looking that made you wonder whether she really saw out of her own eyes. They would look on and on after every one else’s eyes in the world would have stopped looking. She looked as though there were nothing on earth she would not look at like that, and really she was afraid of so many things.

This is only five sentences to your seven, so we'll have to merge something.

>The cat lowered its belly to the ground. The mouse was gobbling on the seeds and the cat inched closer, and then ejected its claws. It sprung into action and in a second grasped the shocked mouse into its paws. A quick bite to the neck and the mouse died. The cat then brought the dead body back to the human but the human promptly threw it in the trashcan, and the cat grew sad.

Obviously you can go further with the imitation, trying to emulate the structure and length of the sentences more closely and obviously you should imitate your favorite works.

>>21712036
>a schizophrenic who is somehow capable of consistently pumping out balls to the wall insane pulp horror
all his ideas are ripped off from 4chan memes

>>21712020

>>21711961
>competently written
it is, anon.

>>21712056
and your ideas arent?

>guy trying to give criticism can't even use proper grammer

This is why Gardner is the King of /lit/

>>21712061
I'm not constantly on here rotting my brain, so no. Though I'll admit that I take from crazy alt-cosmology for my worldbuilding, hollow earth shit and the like.

>>21712080
this somehow still manages to make gardner look incompetent by comparison

>>21712080
I still found the one on the right more enjoyable to read, even with its flaw. I can tell that the anon is actually trying to put a decent amount of effort into his writing. Gardner just writes schizo-slop because he knows he can sell it off of meme factor alone

>>21711556
>three hours later

I HAVE FIXED IT

>half of thread is filtered
I guess that G*rdner tranny hasn't left

>>21712169
BUY MY BOOK

>spend a year writing a 100k first draft
>I now really understand setting and characters
>sit down to write a non-shitty draft of chapter 1
>spend several days fine-tuning the prose
>not publishable, but good enough show friends for first impressions
>"show, don't tell"

Apparently my prose is clean, readable, and boring as fuck. I know my friend is right, but it still blows to be caught in beginner mistakes so far into this.

>>21712227
maybe your friend isn't right and you are actually very capable of writing a narrative, have you considered that?

>>21712227
Did you follow basic story structure, i.e. scenes as goal, conflict, disaster?
Readers get bored when there are no stakes.

>>21712227
>>21712232
>>21712236
Proof is in the prose

>>21712080
They're both terrible, but at least the FG one uses short simple sentences that are easy to read. I don't have to pause to figure out what's being described. It's not rapidly introducing multiple absent characters and locations while neglecting to tell us anything about the characters at the scene.

>>21712192
you may say that ironically but if you repeat something long enough, whether its true or not, people start to believe it
he is basically brainwashing lit at this point

>>21712058
This is great. Probably the most accurate depiction of woman behavior in literature history. Bravo F Gardner!

>>21711586
Just to be clear, you guys don't give feedback on fetish stuff, right?

>>21712287
I-I will....

>>21712056
>all his ideas are ripped off from 4chan memes

Gardner constantly says he gets his ideas from /x/ urban legends and thinks of how they can become novels. That's not any different than any other book based on an urban legend.

>>21712080
Jigoku was an 11/10 /wg/ book. Way better than Call of the Crocodile by a freakin landslide.

>>21712259
I sort of understand. F Gardner is the ultimate "It's fun, just turn your brain off bro!" type author. His books are filled with crazy shit but they're fun reads.

>>21712296
Fundamentally there's nothing wrong with it, but it IS wrong to pretend he's some paragon of originality.

>>21712287
>>21712295
Well, not right now. My PC's power supply burned out yesterday and all my writing stuff is in there. I'm asking more as in"Is there a thread rule that doesn't allow me to ask feedback on fetish stuff?"

>>21712310
Yea. Even Jigoku is obviously just edgelord Pokemon.

>>21712080
F Gardner.....I kneel

>>21712243
And yet it still turned out boring...?

>>21712285
No wonder he's alone.

First draft. Any advice for further development? Is it too juvenile, crass?

>thread didn't even make it 30 posts without turning into an F.Gardner general
Well, better luck next thread, lads

>>21712333
this wouldn't even pass for YA

>>21712080
Yes, if you "shut your brain off" and "ignore the flaws" it is much more "fun" to read the excerpt on the right. Being whipped around on a joyride of gore and names and faces, never being challenged or informed in the slightest as your mind's eye is invited to take the afternoon off and let the author do all the work for you. But those who appreciate solid technical mastery will always choose Gardner. Look how he commands the 'lens' of his prose with unflinching focus. He never strays from the central thesis of his narrative, engaging at every instant with his subject without insulting the reader with extraneous 'details.' The excerpt on the right needs so many extra words to arrive at a sprawling, jumbled mess of a set-up. May as well bring dinosaurs and freemasons and atlantis into it at this point.

>>21712355
>But those who appreciate solid technical mastery will always choose Gardner

>>21712333
Bonkers. A character monologueing their actions like stage directions makes them sound like a clown from the Commedia dell'arte or something.

Nay, I'll show you the manner of it. This
shoe is my father: no, this left shoe is my father:
no, no, this left shoe is my mother: nay, that
cannot be so neither: yes, it is so, it is so, it
hath the worser sole. This shoe, with the hole in
it, is my mother, and this my father; a vengeance
on't! there 'tis: now, sit, this staff is my
sister, for, look you, she is as white as a lily and
as small as a wand: this hat is Nan, our maid: I
am the dog: no, the dog is himself, and I am the
dog--Oh! the dog is me, and I am myself; ay, so,
so. Now come I to my father; Father, your blessing:
now should not the shoe speak a word for weeping:
now should I kiss my father; well, he weeps on. Now
come I to my mother: O, that she could speak now
like a wood woman! Well, I kiss her; why, there
'tis; here's my mother's breath up and down. Now
come I to my sister; mark the moan she makes. Now
the dog all this while sheds not a tear nor speaks a
word; but see how I lay the dust with my tears.

>>21712091
>>21712138
holy fuck retards IT'S IRONIC

>>21712345
Like it says in the OP:
>Violent shills should be ignored and reported.

I'm working on a manuscript at the moment that involves a young guy who's father disappeared at sea. The protagonist discovers his father was involved in some shady business practices involving offshore bank accounts and sets out on a voyage to uncover the truth of his father's disappearance.

The story begins in Vancouver and he sails down to panama, through the canal and into the Caribbean throughout the journey.

I'd like to include an arc where he harbors in a small coastal village to wait out hurricane season before continuing. Would it be overly cliche to have him meet a girl his age in this town with a rough past and eventually save her from some trouble and have her accompany him on the remainder of his journey.

I'd like to setup a betrayal between these two characters at some point rather than a happily ever after ending.

Thoughts?

>>21712383
I don't care that you're ironically pretending to love the taste of shit, you're still shoveling scat into your rotten gob and stinking up the place doing it.

>>21712407
I don’t see why it wouldn’t work.

>>21712385
>Saying you like F Gardner is shilling.

He's just yet another /wg/ writer. Merely talking about F Gardner's works isn't shilling. This is /wg/ after all. They make for good comparisons as demonstrated here>>21712080

>>21712426
As much as you wish it were otherwise...you're the only one that talks about you.
Everyone else is sick to death of you.

>>21712407
Why not buy a plane ticket?
>meet a girl
That's not specific enough to be a cliche. It's a near universal plot element.

>>21712449
Speak for yourself

>>21712450
He has a strained relationship with his mother after his father's disappearance which ultimately culminates in him abandoning his home. He feels a strong connection to his father's sailing career and has a desire to follow in his footsteps. Sailing after his father is initially a way for him to feel closer to him and to honor his memory but as more is revealed about his father's history his destination and goals become more solidified. He can't just fly to the destination because he doesn't know where he is headed. His mother is reluctant to give him the whole truth about his father and he picks up on this which leads to the falling out. As he sails the route his father travelled he meets past acquittances and learns more about the dark side of his father's double life.

I think I'm not able to write the book I've been working on. I'm going for something influenced by hardboiled crime pulps, but I've next to no experience with the big cities that are endemic to the genre aside from a sixth grade trip to New York. I keep going over the Mike Hammers, Parkers, and Dortmunders that inspired me, but it does nothing to build up the city in my mind. I have my characters and plot, but they're trapped in a labyrinth of white rooms. I can't even fall back on writing what I know; it's impossible build a fantasy from the methland hell around me when I'm doing this as an escape from my addict landlord and that goddamn homeless crackhead with the gun who won't stop coming into my store and trying to convince me to sell him $40 of shit for six crumpled and moist dollars.

>>21712490
if James Joyce could write about a city by getting descriptions from letters you can google "new york walk-through" and do the same

>>21712345

/wg/ Rule # 1
>no one here reads or writes

/wg/ Rule # 2
>Every Writing General will eventually derail into an F Gardner thread

>>21711586
One day we'll all make it.

>>21711756
>make it downloadable

Roundhouse kick F. Gardner into the concrete. Slam dunk Call of the Crocodile into the trashcan. Defecate on Call of the Kangaroo. Launch Call of the Machine Elves into the sun. Stir fry Horror’s Call in a wok. Toss F. Gardener’s troon gf into an active volcano.

>>21712577
That's too far. F Gardner's trans gf is smoking hot. Be nice to her.

>>21712539
/wg/ Rule #3
>no one is to reply to grounds keeping related prose.

>>21712577
>>21712604

Good thing F Gardner says volcanos don't exist! Looks like Gardner's tranny girlfriend is going to be okay!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1Q2_HC8gRc&t=12s

>>21711747
2/4 of that is basically me.

>>21712606
Overruled. F Gardner keeps these threads relevant because people can't (for whatever reason!) stop buying Call of the Crocodile and keep catapulting it to these /lit/ Top 10 lists.

>>21712554
Why would you need to download it?

Not directly (you)ing the grounds keeper. But this thread is not for self advertisement. It's for review and critique.
>Rule #3 stands

As someone who has mainly written through typing, I have to say that writing with pen and paper has done wonders to alleviate my undue hesitance when it comes to writing. What I mean by this, is that although I can write for hours at a time and enjoy doing so, it seems nigh infinitely difficult to actually start writing. This difficulty has been made the nonissue it should be after the first several paragraphs, and, as obvious as this may seem to many, I’d like to share it regardless no matter how redundant or pointless it may seem to do so.

We will all make it so long as we keep writing, for there are only so many terrible sentences, bad phrasing, and awkward scenes we have in us, and sooner or later, we shall eventually begin excavate good writing.

>>21712693
>But this thread is not for self advertisement. It's for review and critique.
It's not even about review and critique. The general is supposed to be about discussing the writing process with likeminded individuals. When I started frequenting /wg/ a few years ago, posting excerpts of text was even looked down upon, since we didn't want the general to turn into the shitshow that critique threads used to be. Now we have Gardner shilling and people posting their first paragraph of prose fiction since middle-school, unedited for review

>>21712236
>Did you follow basic story structure, i.e. scenes as goal, conflict, disaster?
>Readers get bored when there are no stakes.
Not like I should have. My introduction was an action (as in stuff happening, not violence) scene which reveals character and leads to an inciting incident. I think my idea was to have the readers piece together the larger circumstance based on the main character's behavior, but in retrospect I might have hurt myself by not establishing stakes. It probably makes my prose issues worse because it's harder to pay attention.

>>21712232
>maybe your friend isn't right and you are actually very capable of writing a narrative, have you considered that?
Maybe, but it's too early in the process for me to be dismissing criticism out of hand. If nothing else, I probably do need to make my language more direct.

>think of this one book i really wanna write as a video game, tv show, or cartoon
>think of all my other story ideas as books
what the fuck

Thoughts on the opening page?

>>21712236
>stakes
Characters don't have to die. It can be emotional or otherwise.

>>21712236
Stakes are a meme. Usually readers already know who will survive and who will win. Stakes aren't the secret ingredient for action.

>>21713235
I've had the action dismissed for filler.
really fucking retarded but it has happened

There is one bit of advice which I most certainly will not give you. It says in some of the how-to-write books here in my collection that when you create characters you must “Show, don’t tell.” This pernicious commandment charges you always to dramatize the personalities of your characters rather than to explain or comment on them. So instead of simply informing us that “Balthazsar was a reckless man,” you must send him over Niagara Falls in a barrel. Don’t believe it!

A short story is not a play. The playwright can enter the consciousness of his characters only with great difficulty, through awkward devices like the soliloquy or the aside. Almost all fiction, however, starts inside someone’s head; readers expect to have complete access to the thoughts and feelings of at least one character. Although our inner life is not inherently dramatic, it is the stuff of superior fiction. Daniel Keyes “Flowers for Algernon” for example, is almost entirely told in the form of journal entries; there are relatively few scenes. Yet Charlie Gordon is one of the more memorable characters of science fiction. This is because, happily, telling can be showing. A character like Charley dramatizes himself when he describes what he thinks and feels or when he interprets the actions of other people.

There is also the problem of limited resources. You would be squandering precious story time were you to allow each and every member of the crew of the starship to act out his reasons for choosing space service. Showing should be reserved only for very important persons. Feel free to tell readers exactly why your spear-carriers are restless.

Finally, as a science fiction writer you usually have the dual challenge of creating both character and context. In order to place your imaginary people in their imaginary world, it may at times be necessary to come right out and explain that your heroine is a girlygirl, an underperson, “cat-derived, though human in outward shape” and that this has everything to do with the fact that she falls hopelessly in love with a human lord of the Instrumentality and then never tells him. Or at least Cordwainer Smith thought so when he wrote “The Ballad of Lost C’Mell.”

This is not to say that such tools of dramatic characterization as dialogue, action and reaction are not essential. Rather it is to warn that “Show, don’t tell” ought not be carved on the foundation stone of your house of fiction.

>>21713229
Descriptive openings are cool. Not sure your adjective choices all work for me.

I don't much like, say, "gazed intently" gazing feels less intent to me, "awe-inspiring" is also not so much my bag. "Rhythmic motion of his hands" a little odd.

>>21713229
Too much stage setting. I'd cut out the first two paragraphs, or at least move them somewhere else.
What's the POV? Third limited? Omniscient. You describe tom's inner thoughts and then his mother's.
It's a little too sentimental. The cheeriness comes off shmaltzy. Maybe tone it down a little. The reader isn't invested in any characters yet, so reaching for big bright emotions feels unearned.
A ship is a 'she' not an 'it'. Respect her pronouns.

>>21713229

Overdoing it, you use too many participle phrases, sometimes stacked three of four in a row, slowing the pace, draining energy with extra words like train cars linked to a straining engine, chugging down a track.

Way too many adjectives per sentence. You are picking strong verbs, which is good, but then you don't trust them to do the job alone.

Mixing metaphors. Are the sails colorful patches or seagull wings>

>awe-inspiring
>thoughts were consumed with the idea
>catch a glimpse
>pride and joy
>firm grip
>etched on his face
Cliches.

>>21713329
>Rhythmic motion of his hands
Yeah... I might have to change that, it didn't quite register how that could be interpreted when I was writing it. It is a bit adjective-heavy, which isn't usually a style I take. I'll try to work on the contradiction a bit going forward.
>>21713338
I was intending on using third limited focusing on Tom, I strayed a bit in the dialogue, might have to do third omni but I'd like to keep it a bit more intimately focused on the protagonist.
The idea with the tone and stage setting is to reflect the idyllic nature of childhood that will soon be shattered by his father's disappearance. It should get quite a bit darker going forward as the story progresses to Tom in his early twenties.
>A ship is a 'she' not an 'it'
I'll have to get used to using female pronouns for boats, good catch

Thank you both for the feedback.

>>21713329
>>21713338
>>21713361
Here is a revision, I tried to account for all of your critiques. Any further feedback would be appreciated

Here's the start of something I did this weekend based on a prompt that I tried turning in a card game. The card game was an unbalanced piece of shit that barely played, but it was fun making the art.

https://saddestvacantlot.blogspot.com/2023/02/fast-tony.html

(the original FFA prompt from like last October I think:
https://saddestvacantlot.blogspot.com/2022/10/a-thief-rethinks-their-choices.html))

just finished the first chapter of the first draft for my story. i've been going back and forth with this particular novel for a while, but i think i'm finally starting to get around to it.

now just like, 20 more or less chapters to go.

but i got just one question: would it be best if i plot the entire story first THEN draft it, or does the story often come with drafting? the only reason why i've been off of doing a draft in the first place is because i don't have the entirety of the story down.

>>21713518
I think you would be helped by the following exercise:

>Take the first page of a short story or novel and highlight the sentences of description, exposition, interior monologue, dialogue and narration in different colors.

Then do the same for what you posted. You should very quickly see where you went wrong.

>>21713590
To answer this you only need to look back at your own history. Did plotting stories ahead of time result in a completed story? If not, then you shouldn't plot ahead. The only objectively correct way to do things is the way that will get things done.

>>21713603
If you’re able to articulate the issue I’m willing to listen but I’m not going to fuck up a perfectly good book because you don’t like what I’ve written.

>>21713618
You don't need to use physical highlighters retard. You can do this on any word processor. Actually, never mind you're obviously beyond saving. I'm sorry I bothered.

>>21713626
All I’m getting from this is that you are unable to articulate the issue.

>>21713634
Can't expect anything more from a retard I guess.

>>21713590
Have you never read/listened to any of the 100 bazillion thinkpieces on "pantser vs plotter", or read the discussion of this exact topic last thread?

>>21713645
I’m having trouble understanding why you’re genuinely upset over this but I’ll admit it is amusing. Telling me to go practice a writing exercise is not at all a helpful critique, the other anons provided valuable insight and you’ve done nothing much besides tell me to go learn how to write. Do you actually expect a positive response to your half arsed feedback? Why take my rejection of your critique so personally?

>>21713611
>Did plotting stories ahead of time result in a completed story?
huh. that's actually a good question for me. now that i think about it, no, plotting ahead hasn't really helped me all that much. always felt like it hindered me a little if anything. guess i'll try to pants my way through with this one, i suppose.
>>21713650
i have, but i guess i kinda wanted a fresh look on it. i wasn't really there last thread, so i had no idea.

You know how in detective stories, the final clue that the detective needs to put everything together is usually some incredibly small detail that they glossed over at some point during the story?
In my story, the detective specifically goes out of his way to do something, and that's when he notices that small detail (it happens less then halfway through the story, but he doesn't put everything together until the end). Basically, it's a short scene in which nothing important really happens, except for him noticing that detail (but obviously he doesn't think anything of it until much later).
Should I rewrite it? Just get rid of the scene and just mention that small detail in passing instead? I'm worried it might sound awkward if I do that, but I kinda don't like it currently.

>>21713707
>Basically, it's a short scene in which nothing important really happens, except for him noticing that detail
Make something seemingly important happen in the scene. You want the scene to be memorable. Then it's a satisfying bait-and-switch to reveal 'Yes, that moment was important, but not for the reasons you thought.'

>>21713707
This >>21713724 and even better if the detective initially misinterprets that clue and makes the reader reach the wrong conclusion.

>>21713724
>>21713730
Those are some good ideas, thanks anons.

>>21713670
>i have, but i guess i kinda wanted a fresh look on it. i wasn't really there last thread, so i had no idea.
There's no answer. Everybody does it differently.
My advice is to try to push yourself to do what's hardest. Make a rough outline if you hate planning ahead. Leave yourself some room for improvisation if you rely on them.

>>21713737
>Make a rough outline if you hate planning ahead.
i do in fact do this, sort of, i just store it all in my noggin. if i were to write it down, i'd just keep the outline pretty vague, and just fill in the blanks when actually writing the story. like you said with leaving room for improvisation.

>>21713525
Actually not a bad read but the opening is a bit repetitive. The reversal of him being bored with his job doesn't require quite so much set up. You can probably cut a paragraph off the top.

>>21713765
Thanks, if it affects anything, I'm trying to figure out how to jump around where the literal first paragraph is present and the rest is before. It sort of became one of those things where I liked describing how he got his start I probably deviated too much from the opening.

like. . .

START

flash back

BACK TO START

>>21713814
There's tricks that writers use. The most common one is to use time tags ("last time", "three years ago", "when he was in school" etc.) and changes in verb tense (past perfect: "had driven"). To return, you just draw the reader's attention to some action or detail specific to the present ("the rubber of the steering wheel smelled like hot cologne"). Don't use "remember" or "recall" that brings you out of the story.

>>21711586
how to start writing? when is an idea good enough to write about?

>>21712722
>Maybe, but it's too early in the process for me to be dismissing criticism out of hand. If nothing else, I probably do need to make my language more direct.
you sound like you have no confidence, and with a grand number of one (1) critique I wouldn't take a sledgehammer to your writing

>>21713829
If you have to ask, your writing is not good enough to show anyone so just start writing something and keep it to yourself. You have to learn by doing.

>>21713857
well, how will I know when my writing is finally good enough?

I went from writing a book with 5 characters to just writing a book with 1 principle character and it's so much easier, what a retarded idea to do 5 characters for my first book

>>21713229
Purple prose

>>21713870
when you’d let a girl you’re trying to fuck read it

>>21713882
how about after the revision? >>21713518

>>21713881
yes, I did my first book like that (but with 3 characters) and it ended up feeling like three separate books

>significantly more talented than 99.9% of writers
>can't write
>can do nothing but lie in bed in neetly suffering
>see another poorly written book meet success
>suffer more
this sucks
I see no way out

>>21714162
>came here to humblebrag about how good he would be at something if only he would stop being lazy to do it
even

>>21714162
>can do nothing but lie in bed in neetly suffering
Get a part time job or something to keep yourself busy, even if you don't need the money. Motivation to act comes with keeping busy and maintaining that momentum. There's a reason people get bored on long holidays. Get busy mate.

>>21714162
>significantly more talented than 99.9% of writers
>significantly
I'd be impressed if you posted something anon.

>>21714200
it was real in his mind

I'M the best writer in the entire world, not that other stupid asshole

Everytime I write something, people call it shit. I have no friends or family to encourage me or provide me any confidence.

>>21714227
get a load of Vincent Vanon Gogh over here

>>21714162
>can write a single paragraph of overly purple prose
yawn

>>21714227
Have you tried posting your work on a fiction-oriented sub on Reddit?
Most feedback is positive, most negative feedback is against the rules, and one rarely gets downvoted into oblivion.

>>21714162
you could do a lot worse than lie in bed, NEET

Is it a good idea to blitz through outlining multiple short stories?

I'm not trying to detail everything about them, but I'm trying to practice establishing a picture of the scene and the characters, because my beta readers keep complaining about my characters and I fear it comes from a position of overthinking them so they end up muddled.

>>21714389
I only seek approval from the NEETs on 4chan. They are both judge and jury when deciding what is good or now.

>>21714503
Consider what happens to the parasites when they succeed in killing the host.

>>21714503
>post your work solely for people that call it shit
brainlet

>>21714200
I've wasted half my life as a neet on this site. Even had I the energy to stand up it's not like this existence could supply any writing worth someone's time.
Prose was just something I abused to coast through academia without having to learn anything or do any work.
How do you people have the nerve to spend hundreds of hours writing fiction for its own sake.

>>21714609
because it is cathartic and when I write something that feels good and someone relates to it I feel human.

>>21714609
>don't make an effort
>how do others make an effort

>>21714609
Because you'll feel better afterward. It's like the relief of emptying a full bladder

>>21714609
Go for a walk you lazy nigger. The joy of life is relishing the doing.

Hey /lit/, fa/tg/uy here and looking for some writing advice because I know I'm not great at it. Are you guys alright with me posting a few paragraphs from one of my lore dump books?

>>21714814
Just post it. Use links like others in thread are doing.

>>21714227
maybe because they are not friends or family they are giving you an honest review.

>>21714814
>lore dump
why do you faggots obsess over this shit like the geneology of made up fairies and monsters. it's what a five year old would write.

>>21714904
You're not wrong...
>Many people (including J. R. R. Tolkien) have wondered at and criticized Eddison's curious names for his characters (e.g. La Fireez, Fax Fay Faz), places and nations. According to Thomas, the answer appears to be that these names originated in the mind of a young boy, and Eddison could not, or would not, change them thirty years later when he wrote the stories down.

>>21714852
Cool, thanks anon. Just wanted to make sure fantasy was allowed.
This is the first bit of it. It's a journal entry of a sorcerer blacksmith in my setting. She was responsible for the creation of sentient weapons that the players obtained. The intention if for it to contain information that will lead the players (also sorcerer blacksmiths) to being able to either "right her wrongs" or complete her work.
https://privatebin.net/?a208dab11bc075bc#12eHp5y4wLWXqytKLPCoSXoFvxw8jrp3kPZ1pYZzTkfR
Again I'm an absolute beginner at doing any sort of "serious" writing so don't hold back
>>21714904
>play a game with my friends
>they like the setting, characters, etc of the campaign
>never put much effort or thought into developing them because why bother
>they leave the "main quest" specifically so they can learn more information about these weapons with souls in them
>they ask me many specific questions about them
>decide I need to sit down and write something for them because all the original characters are long dead
we obsess over it because it's fun. Sorry I'm not one of the NEETs in this thread that won't even get up out of bed, let alone attempt to write something for the purpose of enjoyment of others

>>21714944
it's just wasting effort "learning" about made up fictional nonsense. if you were a man you'd put that effort into learning how to wrench or cook. why dont you show the enthusiasm you have for elf races for something useful like how to use spices or how to work out. you're a pathetic infant and the world despises you, you're a waste of resources and actively make things worse for those around you. grow up

>>21714967
this is /wg/ retard faggot
go back to /pol/ or /fit/ or whatever self help wank bubble you came from

>>21714967
Maybe it's his day off.

>>21714944
Why not ask on /tg/? There's always a worldbuilding thread up that's made for questions like this. Also making your players read autistic worldbuilding nonsense instead of discovering it through play (where it ties into their actions and characters) is the fastest way to tank a game.

>>21714967
>if you were a man you'd put that effort into learning how to wrench or cook
>you can only do ONE thing in life so if you write fantasy that means you can't cook, fix things, exercise, or hold down a job
Actually kill yourself.

>>21714987
specifically because they asked for it. They've spent the last 4 sessions trying to hunt down a book or manual so I've been pointing them into the direction where they could find one.
They're more autistic than me and are the type of people to read the entirety of lore books in RPGs.
>There's always a worldbuilding thread up that's made for questions like this.
Because I specifically wanted advice on prose and style, not the actual setting details.

posting some of my teams stuff here, cant really ever get people to read it so weve never really gotten any criticism

https://privatebin.net/?801698ba00a1ef85#CddzurBWV9ieJCEqdX9DG3G6YPPengiBerFUAvuD6FPW

>>21714988
>>21714985
>>21714974
you're only interested in this /tg/ shit because you're a mediocre guy who isn't good at anything, so you found some "study area" in the only field where you can never be wrong, because the answers are all made up to begin with. you're a pathetic loser terrified of failure. instead of putting effort into anything, you run away from conflict, and flee to safe spaces where you can make up all your answers and still get a pat on the ass.

>>21715038
provide some critique beyond "fantasy bad" and I'll listen

>>21715005
I just skimmed it. It's fine for what it is. You could try and alter it to fit more of a journalistic style (e.g look at the journals of Samuel Pepys or Captain Scott or Defoe or hell Anne Frank). Journals have breaks in time, are extremely personal, and are often written in a shorthand style referencing things that would be obvious to the author but not the reader. Journals aren't meant for other people to read and part of the fun is to try and piece together what is being talked about.

>>21715047
that makes a lot of sense, I'll check those out. Thanks anon.

>>21715044
you're a fat pathetic failure and you want me to roast you further? get a life and a job

>>21715038
you dont even know him man, whats wrong?

>>21715051
I make $200k USD a year.

>>21715038

>>21715051

so you just come here to shit on people asking for help? thats nice, I guess

>>21714210
Wow your F Gardner??

how do yall feel about pandering?

>>21715456
pandering is just when writing to a target audience becomes too obvious

>>21715369
>>21715456
Go back

>be in college
>Learn steamy romance sells good
>enter the world of Erotica
>Publish a short on Amazon
>Get the pic related review
>Forget about it
>Write more in-depth books with more world building
>Write about Greek Mythology and more gods being real in modern times
>Write about philosophical implications of it
>Fill it with steamy romance
>Cliche Poly FFM with male POV book is still my most read

will I ever make it, bros?

>>21711628
It'll leave you with a sense of pride and accomplishment.

>be usual retarded nigger online with various stories in head since highschool
>Never really bother trying to make them because can't draw and lol who cares about stories without pretty art
>Always think that it sucks I can't draw because writing and coming up with story is so easy
>Get into reading recently
>Discover text with no pictures can also be beautiful (mainly thanks to LotR)
>Decide maybe I should give writing a book without drawings a try after all
>Try to write
>Hand becomes useless, and brain gets foggy, can't remember any of the ideas that normally come so easy to my head

I tough this shit ONLY happened when trying to draw, but I guess it happens while writing too. I hate life.

>>21715528
Seems like maybe you overcorrected. But also you probably shouldn’t be writing something just because “it sells.” Even if you make some money, will that make you happier than working a regular job and writing what you love on the side?

ESL here. Do you use a possessive apostrophe when the noun in question is not a person? Like do I say "Last week's celebration.....", or do I say "Last weeks celebration......"? I don't know where else to ask this, so I apologize if this is a stupid question.

>>21715559
Oh I learned that I love writing steamy romance more than anything else I have ever written. I used to struggle hitting 5K with regular sci-fi or gothic horror, but I can write 20 pages on paper in one sitting if I am writing romance. I used to couldn’t stand the genre.

>>21715570
>possessive apostrophe
well does the week own the celebration?

>>21715580
I guess you can say that the celebration is within that week and hence belongs to that week and not some other week, so yeah?

>>21715593
no

>>21712490
>the methland hell around me

This is far more itneresting location than NYC. Why don't you just use what you've got?

>>21715593
yes

>>21715595
Okay. So should I use possessives with reference to people only or can I also use it to reference the property of say, some corporation (i.e., "Coca-Cola's offices in New York")?

>>21713229
Start with "Tom had been scanning the waters for hours..."

Cut the number of adjectives you have by half at minimum.

>>21713518
First two paragraphs are horrible. Just delete them for crying out loud.

>>21715570
Others are trolling you I think. The answer is yes. It’s last week’s celebration.

>>21715570
here's my question to you
why do you care? Just write

>>21715576
Then keep rocking on. If you want some more commercial success maybe don’t put so much “world building” or “mythology” in your books and more drama and character development. I think that’s what the review from your first post was looking for.

>>21715528
reverse harem pantheon will sell .

>>>/pol/417755151

Why have there been constant F Gardner threads on /pol/?

>>21715732
Because F Gardner is a /pol/tard and talks about /pol/ things.

>>21715051
>>21714967
>>21715038

>>21715570
>>21715608
Yes. Personhood doesn't matter.
>>21715580
Possessive or 'genitive' case includes more than actual ownership.
>Bob's photo
>Bob's mother
>Bob's habit of trolling

>>21715712
I like to think I can write women, but I can not write from their POV, and I am horrible at 3rd Person View. I prefer treating my male characters the same way Hollywood treats women. That seems to be my middle ground to write romance. Even though I write male POV, they are the secondary characters in someone else’s story. they go through the plot by helping the women, who make the most impact in the story. But yeah, reverse harem is all the rage at the moment. I won’t write anytime soon.

>>21715651
Thanks anon. I will probably die as a poor writer, but at least I will die doing what I like.

>>21715931
pluming?

I finished the first draft of my first novel and i've let it sit long enough that I'm just procrastinating now, does anyone have any tips on editing?

>>21716086
Sounds like you're on your way to becoming the next F Gardner.

>>21716086
Just started my first edit of my first manuscript as well. Just diving in has helped, also I centralized all my update notes into a single extremely simplified reference document. Since then I've just been going through it start to finish (only on chapter 2 now)

I'm watching you once more.

crazy how you can use a word or a phrase and then even thousands of words later, reusing it still feels awkward

Why the fuck does F Gardner's youtube subscribers keep going up? He hasn't made any new videos in months.

>>21716167
It's because he's unironically going to name the jew and has been hinting at it. People are probably mass subscribing in anticipation for when he goes full 1488 and addresses the jewish question. I'm not even joking. On discord he keeps hinting at doing this and it's utterly insane.

>>21716181
If this is true and not just a Larp then holy shit lmfao.

>>21716181
Isn't F Gardner literally dating a tranny?

post what your writing right now

>>21716221
starting the second draft of a fantasy novel
https://pastebin.com/raw/06Adc4mu

>>21716181
Bullshit

>>21716221
The Dark Lord:
https://pastebin.com/LN782Dh9

>>21716233
what's the catch for the story? synopsis
I will give honest feedback if you want

>>21716258
I'm honestly thinking of removing the LITRPG elements and go with a more generic fantasy story. But my idea is to have a bunch of LITRPG/Hight Fantasy characters get their asses kicked by Mother Goose nursery rhyme characters.

>>21716285
Mariette gets frozen in a crystal to stop her illness from worsening and Theodore has to adventure to other lands full of sentient animals to find the cure. I know it's mostly at the "it's fine/kinda bad" phase because I get bored while reading it myself. I'll keep working it.

>>21713848
>you sound like you have no confidence, and with a grand number of one (1) critique I wouldn't take a sledgehammer to your writing
This is a fair point. I'm in a weird place, confidence-wise. I wrote a lot for classes in college (shitty student who coasted on good essays) and did video-essays for a few years after that. I'm no Christopher Hitchens, but I know I can communicate in a clean, concise way. I am new to writing fiction, and I'm not that confident in my ability to entertain.

I'm not going to blindly follow what this one friend says, but I know he has a point. I'm going to get feedback from a few other people and see if any patterns show up. The text is nowhere close to final anyway.

what's worse?
having blind praise or a critical review that fails to actually poke holes in anything you write?

Do any of you think your books will actually sell well in your lifetime?

>>21716381
No. After watching this guy's video, it's over.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnNp-zT3JmY

I'm getting back to writing but my dialogue sucks ass. I know what I have to do in the scene between these two characters, but I'm not really satisfied with what I have or forget to put in some shit so I have to do surgery to put it in and change other stuff and on and on and on

>>21716353
>The text is nowhere close to final anyway
honestly, from my experience, unless you have everything ready to go you should never get any critiques from anyone (although some people disagree). Most of the time the kinks work themselves out when you re-edit and you see what worked vs what didn't.
What hurts is redoing your entire thing before you've even finished anything

>>21716354
>>21716381
>>21716221
>>21715456
>>21714227
>>21711595
Is this a bot? These threads are continually bumped with these bland one-line questions as a low effort attempts to start conversations.

>>21716315
there's world building too, if that's what you're asking for
but it's pretty complicated. That's one of the things I'm struggling with. The main character's path to growth is fairly deeply tied into the world building, but it's too dense to dump on the reader all at once.

>>21716418
No. I am genuinely asking. While I'm happy to get reviews longer than just a sentence, the paragraphs that amount to just 'I wanted things to be different' are grating as fuck. Someone tell me how that would've changed anything or be better. Actually tell me the issue other than it not going how you think it should've.

>>21716418
people are just venting their frustrations

>>21716221
Rather than continue our barbs at one another, Emy stared at the open backdoor of the next house. It was a gaudy and recently built mini-mansion with a cobblestone foundation and bright, vinyl siding all the way to a third story. Ugly as sin in my opinion, but a sound property investment prior to the apocalypse. What had her attention was the open backdoor. “We should check that out,” she said.

“Just don’t shoot me,” I said and walked past her. As soon as I stepped onto the flagstone patio, I smelled the rot and shouldered my gun. The dining room was open, hardwood, half-walls to the kitchen and living room. I had to circle around the central staircase to spot the body. It must have fallen down, I could see a few banister spokes kicked out and a handful of picture frames smashed off the wall.

>>21716423
Well don't give up, keep working on it!

>>21716167
Because he's popular. There's at least one F Gardner discussion going on at any given time on here.

>>21716433
>repeating that the backdoor is open.
I guess I got pulled away or distracted.

>>21716433
I don't think you need the dialogue tag when she's clearly the subject of that paragraph.

>>21716488
I get what you mean, but the sentence is ambiguous as to who would be the one to say that and the exposition is from the narrator's impressions so I just want to rule out the possible confusion.

Stinking meat
sour yeast
orange blossom cloaked quahog
razor burned labia majora
like a pink sprinkles slick with dirty hotdog water
her hand
greased with Bath and Body Works
Vulcan saluting
dive in.

>>21716442
thanks

>>21716491
But the I said after ensures it's her.

>>21716509
Yeah but that's a different paragraph, so there's a slight cognitive gap like walking into a new room.

>>21716418
>are these attempts to start conversations bots
Fuck off demon

>>21716418
Granted, it's difficult to spot the difference between a NEET and a bot.

>>21716561
it took the term neckbeard a little too literally

>>21716547
But it's so lazy. They ask such vague boring questions. And then they don't even engage with the people who do respond.

It's like, "you guys talk about this to topic entertain me." Either that or it's a bot to keep the thread alive.

>>21716573
>>21716547
Would you guys like to opine on whether or not I should remove the LITRPG elements in a silly fantasy story I'm working on?
>>21716299

>>21716181
So that Nazi photoshop of F Gardner might turn out to be true. This sounds like meme magic at play.

>>21716573
I asked a perfectly valid question.
Between blind praise and shitty critique, which is worse as a writer?

>>21716609
Gardner's not a nazi. Has he ever said anything that makes him even remotely alt-right?

>>21716609
Sounds like they're trying give give Gard the ol' Ben Garrison treatment. I don't buy it.

>>21716586
>>21716258
You're idea is silly and comedic. litRPG is mainly power fantasy for teen boys and young men. You will have a small audience for this.

There's also a mismatch on the fictional level. You're trying to turn a nursery rhyme into a coherent story, but also turning game mechanics into a story. Those two don't fit, so the idea seems really unfocused.

>>21716640
You don't know shit about the audience for litrpg, retard. I've seen way more absurd premises get massively popular as litRPGs.

>>21716611
Well, if you're a human I'm not blaming you for the spam. But you can see how it fits the pattern, right? It's vague to the point that it's hard to answer.

If you showed actual examples or told about your experience, people might respond. Otherwise the answer is 'depends' with a shrug.

>>21716611
neither is helpful so they're equally useless

>>21716181
Why is this general hellbent on slandering F Gardner?

is there a more satisfying aspect of the writing process than editing? going back over your previous work and easily finding improvements is beyond satisfying.

>>21716680
So they dont have to read one 9f the other authors

>>21716680
Pretty much what he said >>21716691
F Gardner has written over a third of the books from /wg./ The idea that F Gardner is secretly about to unleash a video about "da jews" is ridiculous and could be an attempt to discredit his books and youtube channel. Which will never work. He's far more popular than he used to be and even R*ddit seems to be aware of Call of the Crocodile and his crazy books. But I don't remember F Gardner ever saying anything against the jews in his videos or that he promotes Nazism.

>>21716659
well >>21716424
To give more precise examples, I get complaining for the slow moments. I even get complaining for the fast ones because muh stakes. Filler this, filler that.
holy fuck, what is the lord of the rings without the goddamn journey to mt doom?

>>21716715
>F Gardner has written over a third of the books from /wg/

Now compare the REAL volume of his work compared to other /wg/ authors. Also, has he made a profit from his work? I am well aware of the costs of running ads, and I strongly doubt he will EVER be in the black with his books at this rate. Gardner is no author, he's a schizo with rich parents burning mommy's and daddy's money on a LARP.

>>21716728
When I say real volume, I mean wordcount. Gardner isn't even top 5.

>>21716726
Hey, Boromir died. That's stakes, right? Poor Boromir. Everyone loved Boromir.

>>21716680
Because he's the seething, schizo, samefagging, demotivational failed-crab pseud that's been shitting up /wg/ for months, if not years.
He does nothing but talk about himself, and pat himself on the back for his "books", even though they're unedited kindergartner slop.
His meme died years ago, and he's in utter denial that it's over. He's trying to breathe life back into it, but that's not how memes work. His time has passed. His meme is deader than David Hogg and Cindy Sheehan, and it's never coming back. And he can't stand it.

>>21716726
I hate how Gandalf was brought back. What a hack Tolkien was.

>>21716715
His Reddit account got suspended.
https://reddit.com/comments/j7poea

>>21716755
Yeah because he kept fucking shilling everywhere

>>21711650
>>21711866
>>21712020
>>21712036
>>21712080
>>21711650
>>21712285
>>21712310
>>21712326
So, you like talking about yourself, huh? Then here's a topic for discussion.
Picrel is the living room where you shot all your schizo videos.
But that house was sold on December 12.
The addresses for your mommy and daddy have updated; they appear to live several miles away, across the street from each other, in a nice-looking rural area.
But your address hasn't updated in the records.
Are you homeless? Couch surfing? Institutionalized?
This is your chance to talk about yourself, in as much detail as you like!

>>21716765
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-ohJ6oXGkI&ab_channel=YER09

>>21716765
lol put that pic into google "search by image"

>>21716728
>Now compare the REAL volume of his work compared to other /wg/ authors

F Gardner has 13 books. Which is significantly more than any of the others by a landslide. I think it's over 1/3rd of total /wg/ books that have been authored by Gardner.
>Also, has he made a profit from his work?
Who knows?
>Gardner is no author
I mean, he's the author of literally 13 books and the most famous author from /wg/. I get that you don't like Gardner. But what on earth are you talking about here? This just reads like a seethe post.

What do you guys write on? Tried Tiddly but I can't figure out how to use it properly.

>>21716751
Gardner frequently gives shoutouts to other writers here on his retard youtube channel and I don't think there's any actual evidence that Gardner even comes here anymore.

>>21716796
I use scrivener would rec

>>21716640
>You're trying to turn a nursery rhyme into a coherent story, but also turning game mechanics into a story. Those two don't fit, so the idea seems really unfocused.
The power of imagination will see me through right?

>F Gardner
>Gardner
>Gardner
>F Gardner
>Gardner
it's you
>>21716773
kek

>>21716765
>Gardner's house sold

And this proves what? That he moved?

>>21716806
Rule no. 2 of /wg/

>>21716789
see >>21716737
retard
both fortysixtyfour and akaso already surpass him in volume of work and it won't be long before Krake does the same

>>21716817
I don't care. I don't even think that's accurate since Gardner has 13 books. I read Call of the Crocodile and that was around 250 pages. That's easily over 50K words. I don't know who those guys you posted are but I'm pretty doubtful about your implications.

>>21716827
Well yea. F gardner writes a ridiclous amount of pulp horror that he shits out quickly. no ones saying he hasnt written the most books here but that doesnt matter

>>21716827
I don't need you to believe anything, do the math. The pagecounts for both of their fictions are right there on royalroad.
https://www.royalroad.com/profile/93390/fictions
https://www.royalroad.com/profile/147723/fictions

>>21716798
Thanks anon, pirating that immediately.

>>21716845
I mean its like 40 dollars
but I wouldn't use it for editing, just organizing your work

>>21716839
I don't really care what Gardner's word count is. But if Call of the Crocodile is around 250 pages and he has 13 books then the word count would be over 3k pages, right? The first guy you posted would be at 3.3K pages based on two books. But the amazon book lists as a few hundred pages. So Royalroad pages clearly don't translate the same to Amazon pages. As you stated you can do the math and it seems Gardner has still written significantly more than that.

>>21716827
>>21716827
CotC is his longest book my a long shot.
>Reptillian Odyssey - 74pg
>Jigoku - 72pg
>Ouroboros - 170pg
>Limbo's Rainbow - 141pg
>Call of F. Gardner - 174pg
>Hunger of the Kangaroo - 75pg
>Call of the Cherokee - 117pg
>Call of the Cradle - 115pg
>Horror's Call - 173pg
>Call of the Arcade - 200pg
>Call of the Kappa - 182pg
>Call of the Machine Elves - 173pg

>TOTAL EST. PAGE COUNT: 1666
>TOTAL EST. WORD COUNT (275wrd/pg): 458150

>fortysixtyfour's est. word count (RR only): 622000
>akaso's est. word count (RR only): 976000

>>21716877
>But if Call of the Crocodile is around 250 pages and he has 13 books then the word count would be over 3k pages, right?
It sure would be if any of his books even neared that length. His real word

>>21716849
Just download Obsidian. It has all the functionality of Scrivener and it's free+open source.

>>21716899
You're looking at ebook pages though. I can see the pagecounts for those are about double. Jigoku and Reptilian Odyssey for example are 120 something pages on amazon for paperbacks. That would basically doble the word counts brining it to twice what you're saying which is roughly what I estimated.
And the books your comparing to are based on ebooks. Like I previously posted they're only a few hundred pages for the amazon paperbacks. Once again that put Gardner at having written roughly three times that amount based on these calculations.

>>21716918
No, royalroad's 275 word/page estimate is specifically for the default amazon paperback. If you go and look at the paperback releases of, say, Retribution Engine or Re: Trailer Trash,y ou will find that both of these line up with that estimate in page count and word count.

>>21716918
>>21716934

I went and checked. Since Vol. 1 of Ret Eng is shorter than Trailer Trash I'll use that one for demonstration. The paperback is listed as 365 pages, and as far as I can tell it covers around 100k words. 100000/275 comes out to 363, leaving some room for deviation.

>added time travel to the universe
>its a good storyline and time travel really enhances it
however as always, the possibility of time travel really adds a bunch of limitations
now that Ive established it as a possibility I feel like it is too easy to achieve to manipulate time, it should instead be extremely difficult otherwise everyone would be fucking with time to get the best outcome

>>21717040
>time travel
fuck no

>>21716934
Then why does it say 3.3K pages? I don't follow.

>>21717062
Because it doesn't translate the same.

>>21717057
its high fantasy anon
please approve of my choice to add time travel (theres lots of magical abilities anyway, but to stop the main villain they have to travel back in time to kill her before she became invincible, spoiler: they fail)

>>21717062
What says 3.3k pages?

>>21717094
the link for the first royal road one

>>21717097
to specify, it's when combined it the other book by the author. But amazon displays hundreds, not 100 plus pages.

>>21717097
Oh, fortysixtyfour's. That's 2.3k pages and it IS accurate to his total wordcount of 622k. The paperback for Trailer Trash just doesn't cover everything, it's only around 650 pages as I recall.

>>21716899
>Just download Obsidian. It has all the functionality of Scrivener and it's free+open source.
scrivener is better looking, has better support, and is only 50 dollars
obsidian doesn't look like it has the functionality, it looks like a notepad with notes and a brain map added to it

>>21717102
And before you try to argue it doesn't count because it's not on amazon, blow me. There's literally no barrier to self-publishing on amazon, it's even easier than getting a story approved on royalroad, being that you might actually get rejected if it's just Redo of Healer type trash or straight up porn.

Give me tips on how to describe a woman sexually but not look stupid doing it.

>>21717111
there really isnt a way

>>21717111
describe her tits, ass, and whether she looks like mommy or daughter

>>21716615
Then where are these rumors suddenly coming from?

>>21716751
F. Gardner's a nice man. Why are you making things up about him?

Looks like it time to officially change /wg/ to /wg/ardner.

How would you write an urban high fantasy noir neo western?

>>21717161
Set it in Chicago and make sure you can read each of the books in any order ;)

>>21717161
Try copying some historical period with changed history and fantasy elements. Noir is an aesthetic, so you can always plug it in.

>>21715576
just as some feedback for this I'd change the first two sentences to:
>I peaked in life at twenty-two years old. Back then I suffered from insomnia and took long walks around the university campus late at night. I'd recently broken up with my girlfriend and I couldn't sleep along in my warm room.
The reason I'm suggesting the change is because your opening sentence's flow is off, the emphasis is backwards.

>>21717072
Are you supposed to want to fuck the villainess? Important question, on it depends whether your story is worth writing at all.

>>21717193
its not really the point of the story but of course I made her a very lewd, fuckable, loli

a third draft of the first couple of pages tried to sort out the purple prose, dropped the first couple of paragraphs as a couple of anons suggested, and reworked it to be a bit less cheery in tone.

>>21716796
A text editor and a proper structure for my folders. I've tried Scrivener and others but felt like they didn't actually help

>>21717111
use characterization not just body parts

>>21717206
seems pretty solid to me anon. I'm not gonna nitpick wording or anything. all I would say is pick a sentence from each paragraph and delete. Might help a bit.

>>21717206
Less purple is better. Not much characterization is going on tho. You spend a lot of words showing Tom misses his dad. Why does he miss him? And we know nothing else about Tom, he's a one note character.

Which is the best F Gardner book to read for a total noob?

>>21717324
I'm planning on continuing the story in the next chapter with Tom in his early twenties and was hoping to focus the characterization on the impact of his father's disappearance and Tom's desire to follow his path and the strain it places on his relationship with his mother. My hope with this opening chapter is for Tom to be portrayed more as a child caught in a situation can't fully grasp. Do you think it would be detrimental to the story to not focus on fleshing the character out just yet? My fear is that if I really bring him to life I'll have to contradict the characterization in the next chapter as he comes into adulthood. Perhaps some details about Tom idolizing his father and hoping to be like him someday could help and lead into the next part of the story?

Segment where a wizard asks a better wizard to let him kill everybody whos bothering him.
Rip it to shit

>>21717361
Punctuation and grammar are lacking and the prose is a bit jarring. Reads like something written by someone who's first language is not english. It's high fantasy so maybe you're trying to get the dialogue to sound medieval in nature? It misses the mark if that is what you're attempting.

>>21717361
>All powers of nature are within the reach of man. Still, they are fools. Their ignorance is boundless. Power is free for them to take yet they restrain. We have dominion over fish, fowl, and everything else; the power to replenish and subdue. The power of perversion too is granted to us. Only the power of true creation remains out of our reach.
There's a lot here that needs trimming.

>>21717206
Cut this down to half the word count. Really force yourself.

And as an extra challenge don’t use the words “miss”, “hope”, “longing”, “disappointment”, “weighed heavy on Tom’s young mind”, “anticipation”, “burden”, “fervent wishes”, “apprehension” and “gratitude”.

It’s all way too much. I feel insulted as a reader.

>>21717354
Well that excerpt reads as Tom Misses Dad a bunch of times. So the next chapter is more Tom Misses Dad. What other character traits does he have? They should be consistent from one chapter to the next unless you're showing character growth. There aren't even small details like "Orange sherbet in a waffle cone. His favorite." but it would be better to show why he misses his dad. The dad's characterization isn't strong either: he likes and is good at sailing, one note.

>>21717393
So focus more on showing rather than telling in regards to Tom's feelings?

>>21717387
Not trying to sound medieval, just trying to sound wizardy. Maybe its too wizardy.
>>21717388
Hes a bit over the top

>>21717394
I'm really unsure about how to cram so much characterization into the first 600 words. I guess that's a result of my writing skills. Is immediately developing the characters that important compared to developing the situation?

>>21717242
Actually it’s mostly paragraphs two and three that are overly wordy and tell-y rather than show-y. Cut those two and it’s already getting somewhere.

>>21717396
Exactly, see >>21717409

>>21717413
would you say this is going in the right direction? the next paragraph will be focused on tom going to bed and it will elaborate on his father's character and tom's desire to emulate it.

>>21717404
It isn't "so much" characterization to have someone demonstrate more than one trait. Again, why does he miss his dad? This would strengthen the character and his emotion. It isn't developing a character to go from flat characterization to an actual person. I work with kids in preschool, elementary school. They have plenty of personality already where it's easy to have favorites and ones you dislike.

>>21717464
maybe some details like this would help flesh out the character a bit?

>>21717437
Same anon, now behind a computer so I can type a bit more.

First of all, it's a decent scene. You succeed in painting the picture, it's all there. Good.

Now what's bothering me and I think other people as well is that it could be better. That is why they're taking the time to give feedback. Also you seem really eager to improve.

It's not like I can really tell you how to do this, but for my taste you're giving me too much tell. The first bit about Tom trying to recognize his father's distinctive green-yellow sail really says all you need to know. Of course we know by then that "the absence weighed heavy on Tom's young mind", it's so goddamn obvious. You don't need to spell it out again. Not spelling it out so much makes it all so much more powerful. And yes, it comes down to the cliché of show don't tell. Clichés are true sometimes.

Really all I need is:
> Tom looks for green-yellow sail.
> Something about his appearance, his body language
> Short bit about the father and the boat maybe? Maybe a memory of Tom about picking out the color?
> Some dialogue with his mom, who reassures him (she's a bit too much of a lovey-dovey one-dimensional caring mother for my taste, but that's another thing)
> The ice cream bit.
> They walk home, some more dialogue.
(The dialogue can really give some clues here as to what Tom is thinking and what mom is thinking.)

Have you considered going the third person limited route? I think it may suit this scene.

For reference, maybe you'd want to read Down at the Dinghy by J.D. Salinger. It kind of reminds me of this because it also has themes of worrying, a young child and boats.

https://www.babelmatrix.org/works/en/Salinger%2C_J._D.-1919/Down_at_the_Dinghy

>>21717540
Thank you for the well thought out feedback anon. This is one of my first forays into creative writing and I think what I'm struggling with most is leaving room for reader interpretation. I think if I can focus on having confidence in my reader and their ability to make assumptions about the story and fill in blanks the work would improve. As a writer, I'm finding this difficult but anons here have really helped to highlight the issue. I'm going to focus more on fleshing out characters and not crowding the reader going forward. I won't shit up the thread further asking for feedback now that I've got a decent idea of where I need work but maybe I'll post again when I get a chapter done.

>>21717565
Godspeed, anon. I'd love to read some more later on.

>>21711586
I just wrote the beginning of a short story for the first time in many years. I'm going to post it here for feedback, even though my gut tells me that that's a horrible idea. .rtf file here:
>https://file.io/eJBGuqoWybIs

any feedback is appreciated

>>21717361
This is what I will say about this one: it reminds me of things I used to write when I was more young. The theme you're trying to explore here, you do well at exploring conceptually, meaning that you've clearly got enough grasp on weighty ideas you want to write about, to get the point across. Basically, you're not shallow or dumb, that's good.
However, there are issues. One is that your style of writing is a bit flat, something I struggle with too sometimes, due to autism.
You write your sentences like this, in a very robotic tone. Very abrupt. Very short. Unconsciously following the same structure each time.

This can be done with some stylistic effectiveness at times, but when its constant, it lacks rhythm. Again, this happens to me too; just try to loosen up and let the writing take you, as cliche and vague as that is its the only way I know how to describe the remedy. Loosen up.

The other thing, is bear in mind the cardinal rule of effective fiction: "show, don't tell." As mentioned earlier, you are toying with concepts that aren't shallow, and you prove your ability to articulate those concepts clearly, you have a grasp on them. But, the monologue you've written here is doing much more telling, than showing. I know exactly what the story is about and what the man in the hole's contention is, all within a few short paragraphs. Rather than things like this:
>I sit in my hole knowing more than they ever will. They sit in their towers with their hands over their eyes too blinded by their own ignorance to ever see. They need machine, I need wave my hand. They need beg. I need only permission.

You could write out scenes where the man in the hole, who I'm presuming to be the wizard, displays his resentment towards the tower-dwellers, and toward non-magick users, through interactions with other characters, rather than openly laying it out in a monologue. Effective fiction leads the reader to drawing the conclusion you want about a character on their own, rather than being told it directly.

These criticisms are just to help improve the effectiveness of your writing, though, by no means is it bad or lacking in potential. If it did, I wouldn't have responded, so keep going.

Can you actually use inverted sentences like "Green is the frog". Even plural and with several adjectives? Like "Green and slimy are the frogs." I feel like I'm doing it wrong.

>>21717802
Why not?

>>21717802
you can do whatever you want, whether it "sticks" or "hits" is another matter. For evidence that you can do whatever you want, though, as long as you do it good: read a poem by ee cummings

>>21717802
They both read fine in my opinion.

>>21716899
Damn, that's all Gardner has published? I'm at 301,925 on royalroad alone, plus three novels at the 75k mark

>>21716797
The shill-spamming is evidence he's here.
No one else in the world would be so motivated to keep blabbing his name.
>>21716807
That's the question...where did he move to?
His address record hasn't updated.
>>21717141
He's long established himself as a jerk.
You must be new here.
The irritating shill-spamming on this thread is evidence enough, but there's much more.

New thread >>21718190