/lit/ - Literature

>>21696737
It’s just desert capeshit from 2000 years ago, there’s no logic to it. No one had read STORY by McKee yet.

>>21696737
there is absolutely nothing wrong with incest and the studies that originally claimed incest were bad was basically some faggot hired by wealthy industrialists to go around talking to literal retards at mental hospitals and saying 'lmao r ur parents related xddd' Wow correlation equalls causation this is real science!

the eternal anglo wanted to put an end to extended self sufficent family clans in america because that dang middle class kept growing and passing on their wealth like aristocrats and thats against the rules! so they memed the idea that incest makes mutant retard babies and is dishygenic as fuck. Meanwhile, they still go out of their way to control their bloodlines and fuck their relatives.

nearly every animal on this planet is reproducing with a relative. Birds. Dogs, Fish, Lizards, Insects. Every single fucking one of them. And humans did too until the 1800s.

>>21698874
cool it ackmed nobody wants to take your sisterwife

>>21698874
>there is absolutely nothing wrong with incest and the studies that originally claimed incest..
You're not convincing anyone pedo

>>21696737
Why did Eve eat the fruit? Why did that woman cut Samson's hair? Literally no reason. It's all a bunch of dumb bullshit. 95% of the old testament could be thrown into the garbage forever and nothing would be lost.

>>21698874
OK, Lizardfish

>>21698874
I agree
Incest taboo is about expanding trade relations by selling of women, not genetic concerns
Incest is natural and a healthier alternative to racemixing

>>21699848
Cool it with the anti-semitisim,bro.

>>21699848
Eve was seduced by lucifer and bore her son cain, which became the bloodline of satan
Samsons hair was cut because it was a conspiracy by the phillistines to weaken him

>>21696737
His daughters seduced him while he was drunk, harkening back to noah
It is a thematic correlation
While noah was drunk ham had sex with his mother, spawning the caananites
Incest and drunkenness as sin which leads to curses

>>21699869
>Eve was seduced by lucifer and bore her son cain, which became the bloodline of satan
Source? I'm pretty sure Cain and Abel are meant to be Adam's sons. Or is this just you reading in between the lines as religious zealots like to do.
>Samsons hair was cut because it was a conspiracy by the phillistines to weaken him
Yeah I forgot about that detail.

>>21699888
It is the masonic temple legend that states lucifer is the father of cain
The song of solomon is also a parable which alludes to this fact
Jesus calls the unsaved the "children of the devil" too, showing perhaps this same idea

>>21696737
Genesis is interesting because it depicts survivals guilt, which is kinda rare in ancient literature.
Noah and Lot both turn to alcoholism after surviving mass disaster, and their substance abuse leads to incest and the cursing of their bloodline.
Noah and his family genuinely are the sole survivors of the mass extinction, but if you read the story of Lot, his daughters also believe the same of themselves. They think it’s just them and their father alone.
Ham sees Noah’s nakedness, it’s unclear if this is meant literally or if it’s euphemistic for something worse. At the very least, he saw his father was naked and didn’t cover his shame, and then told his brothers about it. Lot is of course more explicit in the incestual story, his daughters have sex with him.
Noah curses Ham and his descendants. Lot and his daughters are the ancestors of the Moabites, a cursed people.
After the destruction is over, the disaster doesn’t stop. As for why Lot’s wife turned to salt, I don’t believe it was to promote incest. It was because the city had to be fully rejected. It’s like Moses striking the stone twice. Even a little bit of doubt, wavering even a little, causes problems. Honestly, I think even if the wife hadn’t looked back and turned to salt, the situation with Lot’s daughters would still happen.
Why Lot and his bloodline are bad is due to a general anti-industrial bias within Genesis and other ancient literature. Abram and Lot choose where they will live, and Abram is righteous for choosing “the lands of Canaan,” while Lot dwells in “the cities of the plain.” The developed city of Egypt is a consistent source of evil and conflict. After committing the first murder, Cain builds the first city; a similar story is recorded among ancient Romans (Romulus and Remus). The paradise in the beginning is a garden, which mankind loses due to sin. Babel is a mighty city which is associated with sin as well.
The incest is a part of the story, but it’s not the main point. The main point is mankind straying from God, and the curses this brings. The incest is part of these curses.

>>21699926
>the bible is primitivist
Based?

>>21699975
Genesis definitely is. The Bible as a whole varies a little on this point, with a lot of holy cities and temples and buildings, but Genesis is definitely very primitivist

>>21699926
>>21699975
Also the epic of gilgamesh speaks about civilization being the cause of the loss of innocence
Once we spoke with the animals, now thay are our prey
Abel is the simple man, cain is the agriculturalist
God loves abel and dislikes cain
Cain kills abel.

>>21699988
The tower of babel is another example
Mankind cannot become their own god

>>21696737
>missing the point
It’s a metaphor. The internal battle against evil is a constant one and one is always at risk of reverting by simply turning away from the correct path, in this case as dictated by the god of the Old Testament. She was warned.

>>21699882
>While noah was drunk ham had sex with his mother, spawning the caananites
What? Where did you get this interpretation? There is nothing in Genesis to suggest any contact between Ham and Noah's wife, but instead to indicate some obscene contact between Ham and Noah himself, whether this constituted outright sodomy is still up for debate. Plus, as I understand it, Canaan was already born by the time of Noah's curse. >>21699897
>Jesus calls the unsaved the "children of the devil" too, showing perhaps this same idea
I've always leaned toward the argument that Cain was saved, which would exclude him from that grouping. God literally does "save" him in Genesis.
>4:15 And the Lord said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the Lord set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

>>21699975
>>21699988
Not really. Genesis is a pastoral. Perhaps the first.

>>21700041
I interpret the prohibition against harming Cain as a Pandora’s box type rationalization about why there will always be evil in the world, but that’s just me. I could certainly be wrong.

>>21696752
How embarrassing

>>21700041
The interpretations are that either ham raped his father or had sex with his mother, thus spawning the caananites from an original sin
I see noahs vinyard as a mirror of eden, since "garden" more closely translates to vinyard, with "trees" of knowledge abound
Noah getting drunk shows how this is some type of negligence by god which leads to sin, in the seduction of eve, God's (adam's) wife, which leads to cain.
After the flood is a retelling of the fall of man.
>cain was saved
Some believe the mark of cain was on his forehead, like the mark of the beast.
Cains lineage represents forbidden knowledge, culminating in babylon.
In revelation the mark reads "mystery babylon".
In the book of enoch cain takes the symbolic place of "azazel" the fallen angel, who becomes the "scapegoat", like the "goats" who are sent to hell, or the wilderness in the festival of yom kapur.
Cain is a primordial antichrist
So is ham
So is pharoah
And so on.

>>21699999
Checked and enkidupilled

>>21700068
This interpretation of Eden seems reasonable to me as it seems to tie into wine being associated with knowledge, Dionysian mystery and bacchanalia style. The mythology of the near east seems replete with parallel themes, which shouldn’t be at all surprising all things considered. Cain I’m not so sure about.

>>21700086
The tree of knowledge is undoubtedly a sexual metaphor, which is why they are ashamed of their nakedness adterwards, like noah's nakedness
Jesus also turned water into wine, for more imagery

>>21700086
Cains lineage is associated with metallurgy, hence the "masons" associating themselves with "the craft". In the book of enoch the forbidden knowledge of the crafting of weapons is attributed to the fallen angels, the watchers, "egregori". The "scapegoat" is azazel, who is bound and thrown into the abyss (like chronus in greek myth).
This is the origin of yom kapur where the scapegoat is fied with the sin of the community and are purified by its sacrifice.
This becomes the story of christ, where he becomes the scapegoat for humanity's sins. He is also the brazen serpent of moses, which is why some occultists say jesus is lucifer.

>>21700093
It’s a complex metaphor to be sure. People far more erudite than I have been trying to disentangle it for millennia.
>>21700123
Interesting interpretation. I wonder if or how it might be tied into Hephaestus and his story.
I would suggest however, as a caution of sorts, that we are so good at finding patterns in things (or trying to) that we will find them whether they’re actually there or not.

>>21699926
Did Noah sex the ark's animals?

>>21700216
I heard manly hall claim that the tree of knowledge is the nervous system with all of its stems
The tree of life is the circulatory system
To treat the senses with primacy is the cause of materialism, so is false consciousness, yet is knowledge of a sort
Knowledge and wisdom are seen as polar forces in ancient philosophy
To me the tree of life is the spine
The tree of knowledge is the penis
There are two "serpents"
One good, one evil

>>21699859
>Incest is natural and a healthier alternative to racemixing
lol.

>>21699882
>Incest
Care to explain how Adam and Eve and their offspring procreated if they didn't commit incest? Moses was given the laws that prohibited incest

>>21702345
Where did cain get his wife from if it was judt adam eve and seth?
Clearly there is more to the story

>>21702345
god didn't create much of anything in the first few chapters of genesis, he merely gave them function. the world before was formless since nothing had a function, so it just existed. when god created adam, he was supposed to represent the first priest-kings of humanity, where the garden of eden is the animistic temple of primitive peoples. there was likely more than just adam and eve that was around during that time, but, since early genesis is very symbolic with its characters, people get autistic about potential incest from people who didn't exist and try to justify it with material arguments.

>>21702420
>Clearly there is more to the story
They refine elements of the myths over time and different versions focus on different things. In the Biblical form it lost most connection to the physical origins in Erytheia, modern day Morocco where the golden apples were according to Greeks. The accepted story across multiple cultures was that the first civilization emerged in that area and was wiped out by a flood. The garden is there according to the Greeks, so are the birthplaces of many of their gods.

>>21696737
>advocate
He was raped, OP.

>>21701460
I love the imagery but the ancients weren’t so great at anatomy and physiology as I understand it. I could dig out some Galen quotes but I seem to remember them believing that the brain was mainly used to cool blood and other fun but wildly erroneous notions.

I was wrong, I apologize, Galen recognized the brain as the terminus of the various nerves of the sensory organs and reasoned that it was responsible for organizing them into perceptions. They did have some interesting notions about bodily humours, but I’m entirely off in terms of time periods anyway, I know. End ramble.

>>21699859
imagine the smell

>>21702461
>pure speculation accounting on nothing but thin air
>calling other people autistic
Eve was made out of Adam's rip - not taking into account any translations mishaps - thus, Eve was some kind of a clone of Adam and them procreating is either incest or some kind of hermaphrodite form of procreation. While incest was not common anymore among people in Lot's time his lineage derives from incest and given that his city was leveled and his young daugthers who were not knowledgable at all haven't had bad intentions when they commited their acts against their father. So it's pure tyranny why this incest is neglected and that incest is punished. There is no just reasoning behind it

>>21703309
Romans performed brain surgeries

>>21699926
For a long time now it seemed to me that there is a strain in the Bible which yearns for hunter-gatherer times / societies, with pastoralism being a compromise on the way back to monkey. In it, evil is beget by agriculture which in turn begets civilization.

>>21704949
Yeah and they were also several hundred if not 1000+ years after Genesis was authored. I’m the guy who fucked up about Galen then recanted btw.

>>21705165
You were referring to Galen in the post I quoted. Nevertheless, if you read Levictus again you will notice details about animal sacrifices you will also find references later on for cults who sacrificed humans. I'd assume that even back then people had quite specific knowledge about anatomy. I'm not saying they were correct about everything but they didn't give a fuck about dissecting living things

>>21700058
Isn't it part of his curse to stay alive with his guilt? Later on the law states that murderers should be killed

>>21700068
Nah, God tells Cain to master his sin. It's a positive exhortation. It actually speaks against the idea of original sin rather than for it.

>>21708839
That is correct as I understand it, but regarding later capital punishment Cain was specifically marked by God, so I guess he is/was a special case. As with everything it’s complicated I guess.