/lit/ - Literature

>>21673685
Nah, man, you can't just read a book and forget the useful knowledge. If you have strong brains you'll always analyze what is presented to you through the lense that is most truthful. Just learn to deal with it and get used to people being ignorant as they are.

edgy
N doesnt even say anything negative about it

Honest question: was Nietzsche an atheist or not?

>can't stomach an hour of pretending to sing hymns and kneeling
what an ubermensch you are anon, i'm sure nietzsche is looking on proudly

>>21673781
I couldnt even get out of bed for three days after reading Geneology
>>21673797
Never claimed I was

>>21673781
>literally writes a book named "The Antichrist" whose purpose is to bash and bash on christianity over and over again for dozens of paragraphs
Why the fuck do some morons on this book will just spout the most nonsensical horseshit i've ever heard about authors and works they know NOTHING about? Have people unlearned to just shut the fuck up about what they have no knowledge of?

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/19322/19322-h/19322-h.htm

>>21673825
>he thinks this is anti jesus&god
anon
>>21673820
Okay teen. read the bible

>>21673820
slightly unrelated but what denomination are you from anon

>>21673829
I have read it. Most parts several times
>>21673844
Catholic

>>21673685
Turning 18 helps

>>21673781
Lol, read human all too human. The religious life section will do.

>>21673858
Well the Catholic church and their pedophile protection program is rather nauseating.
Just lapse and avoid attending.

>>21673795
As in he didn’t buy into god and church. Evidently.

>>21673795
Nietzsche is your typical atheist that you find on every street corner nowadays. Those people are torn apart by nihilism and delusion of grandeur where they view themselves as a benevolent despot willy-nilly leading humanity towards a higher life.
Nietzsche is:
-an atheist [there is no god]
-an anti-christian [like any marxist] [Dude dont think long term like the life-denier christians, only the here and now matters OKAY!!]
-a nihilist [there is no truth, only interpretation, TRUTH!!!]
-an hedonist [Only this life matters!!1 live in the present moment to coom like my dancing vitalist idol, the great dyonisus!! teehee im Nietzsche btw, look at meee !11]
-a narcissist [look how I analysed the totally non-judeo-christian-made concept of ''''''human nature''''' , Humanity is will to power!!! LE HECKIN INSIGHT]
-a jew glorifier ["The Jews, however, are beyond any doubt the strongest, toughest, and purest race now living in Europe."]
-a postmodernist [values don't exist but reality doesn't matter bro!!! Just become le heckin uberman, sink further into delusion, create your own values and fight for them until you die!!]

You believe you're a woman? You go giiiiiirl, nobody can tell you otherwise, period!!


yeah no wonder that lefty/lit/ trannies shill his diarrhea all the fucking time.

>>21673861
Where does the meme that Nietzsche is supposed to be juvenile come from? I havent even finished reading the most important greek works and aquines when I was 18, how was I supposed to get N?
Are we just pretending everyone here is child prodigy who read and internalized critique of pure reason at 8?
>>21673870
This seems a bit seperate issue. What shook me more is the root and origin of christian morality. Pedophilia issue is mostly linked to widespread homosexuality in clergy, which is why almost all the victims are boys.

>>21673879
>Those people are torn apart by nihilis
HAAA HAHAHHAHAHAHAHA
copy/pasta?

>>21673897
I have not read any of those things you mentioned and I am 32.

>>21673911
>h-hes not a nihilist! akshully hes not a nihlist !
yeah ok. I dont really care. Hes a nihilist.

>>21673897
Nietzsche never read the critique of pure reason so why are you pretending Nietzsche is some difficult text? It's the easiest "philosopher" and only appeals to teenagers. He's only style and no substance. And yes, I read Nietzshe as a teenager too.

>>21673879
Imagine how illiterate do you have to be classify a guy who wrote things like this as "left-wing". He was much further on the right than fascist (arguably even more than absolute monarchies)

>>21673911
Filtered

>>21673685
What specifically? Nietzsche is correct that Christianity makes you like victims because they're victims which, by the way, is far better than people liking victims because it reminds them that they are not victims.

>>21673685
Debunked by Girard and de Lubac among others.

>>21673685
I never found his criticism of Christianity very accurate. I really dont think the general ethos is one of "the strong are evil and we the weak are righteous". Imo christianity doesnt hate either the strong or the weak. It in fact tells you to not hate anything at all, to practice forgiveness. It has mercy for the weak but I fail to see how this entails hating the strong. The strong are supposed to lead the weak, be like shepherds to them.

Obviously there are indeed people like Nietzsche describes in the church but I think there are such people everywhere, and it doesnt have to do with christianity specifically.

I also have never understood what the Ubermensch is supposed to be, or what transvaluation of values would actually mean. It all seems a bit self-obsessed.

>>21673931
Imagine being so low IQ you get filtered by a 4chan post. Niezsche's ideology is perfectly compatible with contemporary [social] left-wing thought. That's all it says.

>>21673879
good post
>>21673911
Cringe

Nietzsche was a closeted Christian who refused to admit to himself that Christ was the Ubermensch

>>21673923
People falling from their old faith tangle with existentialism and issues of nihilism for the length of time they take to use reason properly.
The longer they cling to some spiritualism the longer the angst. Once it’s dropped, the weight is lifted. You find yourself the captain of your own vessel, and not some institution, “wiseman” or ancient book.

>>21673946
Satan is the "ubermensch" because it's a materialist delusion

>>21673943
Catholic cringe post.

>>21673948
>You find yourself the captain of your own vessel,
Buddy you can't define a single thing, there's no vessel, there's no sea, there's no direction, there's no reality, there's no truth. It's just you and your toys.

>>21673929
I have no idea if that is true. Even so he read Schopenhaur and was likely very familliar with Kants thought. His writing is stylized but at the same time very clear. He isnt some bullshiter like hegel who can write 100 pages and say nothing. In fact a page of Nietzsche probably has more substance than most 20th century works of philosophy

>>21673955
>very familliar with Kants thought.
By not reading it? You're a midwit, that's why Nietzsche converted you.

>>21673942
Its christianity that is perfectly compatible with contemporary [social] left-wing thought. In fact all of leftism is inherent product of christianity, its morality and collapse

>>21673968
Christianity is anti individualism, anti progressivism, anti LGBT, anti feminism, etc. You're objectively wrong and massively coping. Atheism created contemporary world.

>>21673959
What are you even trying to prove? My original point is that its difficult text not suited to most teenagers, not that Nietzsche read it

>>21673968
Depending on what segments of Christianity you’re talking about.
You have a sizable amount of Catholics on the board, and they’re not at all liberal.
They hate Francis for citing Jesus’ proto-socialist tendencies after all

>>21673968
Christianity is overtly patriarchal. The topic its conceivably left wing about is race relations, and only in a "colorblind" sense, not in the contemporary progressive sense.

>>21673974
Yes, Kant is not suited for teenagers. You don't need to read Kant to understand Nietzsche. Nietzsche is easily accessible to teenagers. I'm sorry you can't follow a simple discussion, but I'm sure it's related to your mental structure that also prompted this thread.

>>21673948
But that doesnt make any sense at all, theres no basis to reject it.

>>21673971
this. Other anon literally wants a political system centered around pink nipples.

>>21673953
>there's no vessel,
By vessel I mean ones own life. The world is the sea. The direction is wherever you want.
You sound lost.

>>21673971
>anti individualism
So pro-collectivism, against distinction and greatness? Got it. Communism is also anti-individualist
>anti progressivism
Progressivism is direct consequence of christian slave morality
>anti LGBT
Most cardinals are practicing homosexuals
>anti feminism
Your god washed prostie feet and modern christians never dare criticize women for infidelity or divorce

>>21673685
>read the entirety of Nietzsche one summer
>develop visceral disgust for christianity ever since
You didn't read Nietzsche.
>>21673795
Read Nietzsche to find out.
>>21673879
You've never read Nietzsche.

>>21673995
Progressivism has much more in common with judaism than christianity
>we are the oppressed righteous minority and the majority are evil!
Every progressive issue and Judaism share this core structure

>>21673988
>theres no basis to reject it.
Christianity? There’s no basis to accept it. It’s a tangled mess.
You’re lost and won’t allow yourself to think outside the box because you’ve been told that’s demons, or something

>>21673995
>cope
>cope
>cope
>cope
The atheist genius

>>21674007
You're just making weird assumptions. And you still didnt say anything.

>>21673995
>Progressivism is direct consequence of christian slave morality
Quite possibly the most incorrect sentence ever uttered. Progressivism, in relation to race, gender, and transgenderism, has zero relationship to Christianity. You are relying on saying that a corrupted version of a culture, West or Christian, is the issue of its host and its corruption. You are saying that if a body wasn't there then no parasite or cancer.

>>21673995
>So pro-collectivism, against distinction and greatness?
Bait. No one is this materialist brained. Not even atheists.

>>21673994
There is none of that, brainlet. Wait till you learn about metaphysics for the first time and how your system is built on nothing at all. The first breeze will collapse your entire "system". Your only saving grace right now is that you're too dumb to understand it.

>>21674019
Every system is built on nothing at all but that doesn't mean they don't exist

>>21673995
>So pro-collectivism
Conformity is degenerate
Consensus is synchronicity. There is a different between them.

Freedom projects like socialism have existed as long as trap-societies were invented. We run away like rabbits. Sometimes the religions people come up with are about getting away, and sometimes those religions too are captured and used to control the people

>>21674023
>it's made up but that doesn't mean it's made up
Like I said, you're young and dumb. Chances are you'll always be dumb, but you won't be forever young.

>>21674019
>The first breeze will collapse your entire "system". Your only saving grace right now is that you're too dumb to understand it.
Yawn calling >>21674007
>Christianity? There’s no basis to accept it. It’s a tangled mess.
>You’re lost and won’t allow yourself to think outside the box because you’ve been told that’s demons, or something
>tangled mess
Is that supposed to be an anlysis or a confession?

>>21674027
I don't think you grasped the full implications of what I said

>>21674004
>many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first
Christianity holds weakness, poverty and illness as highest virtues. Fit for slaves. Unironically the first at the gates of heaven according to christians will be obese 70 IQ sheebon and now their spiritual successors are trying to create such "heaven" on earth.
Not adressing other points is also telling
>>21674009
>no effort to adress any point
The power of memebrained tradcath zoomer
>>21674014
See the top of my post. Its natural product of the end-stage christianity

>>21674032
The full implications are that you're deluded
>>21674029
Learn to write a post

>>21674037
Not an argument

>>21674012
I’m guessing things, giving other people’s stories surely, because you won’t say anything about yourself.

>>21674019
>wait till you read some goofy philosophy shit. That’ll fuck yer head up!
No thanks. My world is fine the way it is without the schizophrenia.

>>21674036
>Christianity holds
>weakness,
Lord's prayer literally celebrates power
>poverty
Worldly wealth is scorned but worldly poverty is not worshipped. Abstaining from food is different than stavring.
>and illness as highest virtues.
At this point you should be in timeout

>>21673971
This lol.

>>21674036
Modern progressivism doesnt claim to uplift the weak, it doesn't say blacks are weak, it says if anything thay blacks are better, but they're just oppressed. Literally identical to Judaism

>>21674036
>See the top of my post. Its natural product of the end-stage christianity
Genuinely you are blaming a body existing for getting cancer. It's like saying we should have no kings because some kings have offspring who are tyrannical. It's not an argument to say things can be corrupted.

>>21673980
Christianity is not inherently anything.

>>21674043
>No thanks. My world is fine the way it is without the schizophrenia.
If you don't want to think then don't go around flaunting "reason". Just admit you're an animal instead of trying to take the higher moral ground before backpeddling.

>>21673980
> The topic its conceivably left wing about is race relations
Not really. Christianity is much more antisemitic than most existing strains of thought, which would immediately solve most race issues.

>>21674074
That's not really about race though. It accepts Jews who convert to christianity

>>21674079
Yeah except they don't, so in practice it doesn't matter. We've had this discussion for 2000 years already.

>>21674079
>Jews who convert to christianity

>>21674081
Some of them do though and always have

>>21674088
Yeah a small minority, so in practice, like I said, it doesn't matter.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marrano

>>21674095
Well it does matter because Christianity is multiracia. As far as I know there are literally no sects that reject people for their race

>>21674044
>Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God
>But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. [40] And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also
Why dont terminally online zoomer tradcath just read their own holy book instead of posting?
>>21674048
It celebrates the most biologically botched speciements and natural slaves, like christianity did in roman times
>>21674052
Just read genelogy of morals. Once people stopped believing in christian god (in true sense, not in the sense of tradcath zoomLARPers and grandmas with too much time), which was always inevitable, the dead corpse of christianity naturally gave birth to progressivism

>>21674063
>Just admit you're an animal
Heh. But you don’t believe in such things. Be consistent, lad.

>>21674104
You keep repeating the same thing without listening to what I said. The "righteous oppressed minority" is not a feature of Christianity. It doesnt divide the world up into two groups like that. It is a feature of Judaism

>>21673879
>i'm not a nihilist i just hate living in the present and wish my body were dead

>>21674104
>And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also
Can you imagine a Progressive telling a black person to respond in this manner to the whites oppressing him? Obviously not. That's what you're not getting

>>21673911
>>21673923
N Didn't even believe in his own words. if he did actually believe in what he said and wasnt a nihilist he would not have lived the life he did

>>21674004
Riddle me this anti-semite, who was Jesus of Nazareth proclaimed the "king" of?

>Learn to write a post
lol no
>>21674104
>Just read genelogy of morals. Once people stopped believing in christian god (in true sense, not in the sense of tradcath zoomLARPers and grandmas with too much time), which was always inevitable, the dead corpse of christianity naturally gave birth to progressivism
I have. You're literally saying we should cut out the lungs because they get lung cancer sometimes.

>>21674135
kek another atheist who never read the bible

>>21674120
That's gnosticism buddy, learn the basics before attempting to argue

>>21674112
>The "righteous oppressed minority" is not a feature of Christianity. It doesnt divide the world up into two groups like that
Sure it does. You had christers lining up trying to commit suicide by Roman cop because they hated "Gentiles," being under the rule of such persons, having to respect the authority and customs of such persons, etc. How would any of these people have been "martyred" if not for viciously antagonizing the civil authorities over their anti-social religious beliefs?

>>21674158
>because they hated "Gentiles," being under the rule of such persons, having to respect the authority and customs of such persons, etc.
Not Christianity

>>21674135
I'm only antisemitic in so far as I find Jews' racial obsession tedious and obnoxious. I'm not Christian either, I'm merely pointing out that progressivism is not like christianity

>>21674151
no that's Christianity. You do want your reward of eternal life in another dimension where all the bad people like Roman emperors and legionaries are banished from, yes? A Jerusalem they cannot storm

>>21674158
>christers
Oh figures it's you. Not going to engage further, you're beyond reason

>>21674142
Oh the book about those people you hate going on adventures in the desert? Dumb christer

>>21674164
No, that's not Christianity. You're theologically illiterate.

>>21674170
>Christianity is not the resurrection of the dead to share in eternal life with God
ok
>>21674168
No, you are beyond "reason" with your "faith" in nihilistic fantasies of escape.

>>21674181
So you're illiterate proper too.

>>21674163
>progressivism is not like christianity
This is incorrect. The early christers were basically George Floydists and a number of decently educated or middling elite types latched on them as a power base to critique and harass the Roman state and security apparatus until they finally captured it

>>21674187
>no I won't tell you why you're wrong about Christianity being a world-denying pseudo-gnostic death cult
>because Christianity is a special gnosis I need not provide a definition of to the illiterate hylics that's why
lol lmao even

>>21674203
Why would I tell you why you're wrong? I only told you you're wrong. If you wanted to learn, you'd ask, but you only assert nonsense. You don't want to learn, you just hate yourself.

>>21674212
I don't hate myself. I am quite at peace with having a body in this life in this world; I am not hoping I can get rid of it and live forever as a throne sniffer in the sky.

>>21674192
You're completely incapable of understanding christianity because your own religion teaches you that you're god

>>21674112
>righteous oppressed minority
Right, christianity is more about "righteous opressed" majority. Which is why it despises the true aristocracy which is foundation of all higher life, art and literature. It is the rebellion of ressentiment of the perpetual slaves (most of humanity) against their masters.
>>21674139
>Cut the lung
The lung has literally been cut out centuries ago. The patient just needed time for O2 levels in his blood to drop.
Metaphors aside, its clearly dead faith and not coming back. I am not excluding the possibility that something similar to it will reappear in future since its the manifestations of man's lowest instincts. But christianity obviously did much more harm dead than it did alive, Nietzsche is right on this also

Genealogy of morals sucked

>read first chapter
>he's just fantasizing about blonde germanic men
>ok maybe it gets better later on
>skip 100 pages in
>all narcissistic rambling with philology
>"roman le good, christian le bad"

This is what made you lose faith in God?

>>21674223
>true aristocracy which is foundation of all higher life, art and literature
Materialists are rational animals and they revel in this.

>>21674223
There is absolutely no reason you have to despise aristocracy or pretend some people are not superior to others in many ways as a Christian. The equality in Christianity is equality of the soul before God, and compassion for the weak. This is 100% compatible with admiration of and respect for aristocracy. There is literally no conflict.

>>21674221
>your own religion teaches you that you're god
What are you evasively babbling about now? I don't believe I am your ravenous volcano demon, but I suppose I will accept your homage as a compliment

>>21674235
You're a hindu, you believe in monism, which from a Christian perspective is just believing you're god

>>21674240
Hey buddy I think you got the wrong door, the bhakti club is two blocks down

>>21674252
You are though, you said as much one time. But if you're not then state what you do believe

>>21674229
Yes, I do believe that true art, a beautiful piece of classical music or passage from the novel, rennaisance statue, or especially natural beauty is worth a billion lives of my african "brothers in Christ".
Beauty is the highest value to me. Aesthetics is ethics. And heaven where I have to grovel and submit at the feet of some master for eternity holds no appeal to me, but then again I am not a natural slave.
>>21674234
Please reread the passage I posted and maybe the rest of it

>>21674259
I'm not whoever you are imagining. I am just visiting because N threads with inarticulately angry N haters in them are catnip to me.

>>21673971
Surely Christianity is anti-LGBT but it's in favor of the kind of "tolerance" that has disintegrated the social fiber of the West. People who "are" LGBT are few, but you don't need that many people to actually "be" LGBT pederast degenerates who parade with their cocks out in front of kindergartens. You really just need as many LGBT people as you need for the cock-out parade and the Twitter screeching to promote it. What you really need in large amount to destroy a society is people who are *tolerant* of these guys, and that right now is a fucking scary majority. Literally only white people do this because only Christians do this, namely, global Christians who aren't really that free do whatever the fuck and sort of pay homage to Christianity like it happened in the past. That was the trick of the Catholic church, it didn't give a shit if you worshipped whatever Pagan deity, just pretend it's a saint and pay the coin to the church. People didn't give a fuck and never did about being "real" Christians; this only happened later when Christianity became more networked. It's not a matter of race, it's really established Christian thought especially in view of the times when Christianity acted aggressively and hunted witches and that as we all know was wrong and terrible and le dark ages, something which no other religion does because any other religion thinks if you're not in the club you are a literal piece of meat and you're free to be raped to death.

>>21674274
I've read the book, I simply don't agree with him. There have been millions of Christians who were nothing like the psychological portrait he drew. How does he account for the crusades ffs

And you arent actually addressing what I said, which is that compassion for the weak does not mean you cant admire the superior.

>>21674274
>I'm 12
We knew this buddy stop repeating it in different formulas

>>21674277
But you're not even good at arguing. Affecting an unpleasant smug attitude is not the same thing as arguing effectively

>>21674274
>but then again I am not a natural slave.
But you are lmao you're a slave to your sense of beauty which you don't control. You entirely instincts, you're a slave to impulses and reflexes. You're an animal.

>>21674274
Life for life's sake is certainly worthless especially in today's context where people are only allowed to exist because of whatever exploitative market lies underneath the humanitarian efforts, but most art is trash, too. Most of the highly esteemed classical art is trash. What the fuck does it even represent? Oh LE BEAUTY. Beauty as an object makes for garbage art. It's no different than shit on a canvas, it's conceptual drivel instead of being about the human experience.

>>21674323
>Most of the highly esteemed classical art is trash.
Filtered pseud

>>21673929
>more words = more smart!!!!!!
biggest sign of midwittery

Reading thousands of pages of something you already agree with but rebranded as Rational(tm) isn't challenging at all. It's really just a waste of time. And pseuds such as yourself are really good at convincing yourself that obscurity combined with the ability to waste your time is the mark of higher intellect.

>>21674330
>an entire post from a straw man
This is the most intelligent Nietzsche reader

>>21674296
>still won't explain why his interpretation of Christianity is correct, just denounces the opponent again
ok gnostic

>>21674334
>I was only pretending to be retarded
Where is the strawman? The post just made some stupid claims that needed to be laughed at.

>>21674346
Where did the post claim that more words means smarter?

>>21674348
How do you end up on a board for reading when you're this incapable of it?
Don't tell me you're autistic. No wonder you like Kant.

>>21674353
Post the quote where it claimed that or admit you're dishonest.

>>21674358
Stop playing the hatchling.

>>21674361
Dumb, dishonest, and cowardly. The classic Nietzsche fan.

>>21674369
>all this deflection
You can keep posting, I know you're just trying to save face.

>>21674288
That is true but the question remains did they manage to do that because of christianity or despite of it?
For example the church tried to stop great projects of conquistadors. It was also instrumental in ending formal slavery and early feminism started under christian banner.
You can play rhetorical game that its about the equality of the soul but in practice it always seem to seek abolition of all hierarchy and distinction and great leveling of humanity.
>>21674299
>You're an animal.
This is a compliment. Most animals in nature are free, perfect and beatiful. Unlike deformed obese mass of humanity
>>21674323
Most egaliterian society produces the least actual true art. But there are enough examples from the past to last you several lifetimes

>>21674345
Christianity is not anti-creation. The harm comes from sin, from us,(and from demons sinning too), and we can overcome this sin through grace, submission to God, to the good, beautiful, true, etc. God's creation is not evil like it is in gnosticism. We ourselves are very flawed but we're not necessarily evil either, we can choose good or evil.

This is like Christianity 101

>>21674400
>You can play rhetorical game that its about the equality of the soul but in practice it always seem to seek abolition of all hierarchy and distinction and great leveling of humanity
I really don't think so. When I put on my Christian hat the political perspective that makes sense to me is that of the legitimists, Ludwig von Haller specifically is the one I read. In fact this position basically requires God to make sense. Without God if you want your hierarchy you have to opt for some kind of libertarian...neofeudal Nrx type scenario. Of if you're a Nietzschean then I guess eugenics, fascism, whatever. The ancien regime though required the church.

>>21674400
>This is a compliment. Most animals in nature are free, perfect and beatiful.
So you're just self-hating. You hate reason. You want to be an animal. You'll always be unsatisfied, you'll always be a slave.

>>21674433
You are an animal too, and reason is an instinct like any other.

>>21674433
It's not even true lol. If you spend any time around wild animals you will notice a wide variety of them. Some are beautiful and elegant, some are kind of malformed and clumsy, even within one population of a given species. Not to mention temperament variation. It's the basis for natural selection to have such disparities.

Its true that modern civilization produces some grotesque bodies though

>>21673705
>Nietzsche
>Useful

>>21674445
>Some are beautiful and elegant, some are kind of malformed and clumsy,
Yeah that's the strong and the weak.

>>21674443
That's just projecting your metaphysics, but I get it, when you're an animal, these concepts are too complicated for you.

>>21674403
>Christianity is not anti-creation. The harm comes from sin, from us
>overcome this sin through grace, submission to God
>we can choose good or evil
You have an assumption behind this that increasing one's distance from God (imaginary being outside of the world) is "evil," so being in the world (the "created world") without aspiring to abandon it for God (again, the imaginary being outside the world) is an "evil" way of life. So it is literally world denying, which is what Nietzsche is considering to be a feature of nihilism, to prefer something imaginary outside the world to the world itself. The gnostic accuses "God" of being an evil entity for creating this world—but that is not the problem Nietzsche has (or mine); we aren't debating whether the divine craftsman is good or evil for creating the world. The problem is having that being at all in the first place and having him be the focus of evaluation, because he is made up.

>>21674327
I have worshiped classical art for a long time. One of the first inspirations I had from making art was Renaissance painting, and I still like to use many Renaissance conventions. But the trap is that yes, the great classical art, baroque art, all the great beauty that supposedly makes great art doesn't actually mean anything. Just because a painting is amazingly well executed in realism and arrangement of figures, doesn't mean it's art. That was actually something that early impressionists understood in part. I hate abstract and conceptual art with every fiber of my being, so I don't argue in favor of that stuff, which is cancer. I'm just saying that the vast majority of the classical "art" is actually self-serving masturbation, and you probably know it because you cannot possibly love every single trite XIX century painting of Venuses. Much of human culture and the great art of the past is actually just the farts that a select few people loved to sniff out of each other's asses, and decided it's great art and told you in school, just like they're telling you today that Picasso knew how to paint. Now do I prefer baroque statues to contemporary trash statues and other literal garbage, sure, I prefer the baroque shit. But it's still shit, and it's actually traitorous shit because while the contemporary manure is quite plainly and openly manure, this classical art lures you in with the skill with which it was crafted and its "beauty" and creates these devoted zealots who juts go on about MAH GLORIOUS PAST, MAH CLASSICAL ART, MAH BEAUTY. I'm not even getting into the people whose entire taste for such things pivots on politics.

>>21674418
Maybe I consider the discussion of modern church as it is a bit irrelevant since I dont see it as a possible force for either good or evil in my or anyones value system. Too powerless. I am more concerned with its detritus in the form of system of morality manifesting as varius leftist ideologies. Which you dont think could result as a producto christianity as it was in its inception but lets agree to disagee. At least we could converse without spergloid name calling like the rest. Very good. I wont be able to reply for some time now.
As a final side note I would consider ancien regime to be partially based in eugenic too (nietzsche also claims this)

>>21674466
>You have an assumption behind this that increasing one's distance from God (imaginary being outside of the world) is "evil,
Yes because he is the source of everything good so rejecting him is choosing evil. That doesn't entail that his world is evil. It was created good but it can be corrupted. It is still a glorification of God in its beauty and grandeur.

>because he is made up
That's an entirely different point than claiming that Christianity is the same thing as gnosticism or means you have to hate creation and life. Obviously nobody actually knows if God is real, it is beyond our abilities to know that.

>>21674491
The church isn't entirely powerless, but yeah it is a shadow of its former self. Both the catholic and the orthodox churches.

I still dont think it is fair to lay the blame for leftism entirely at the feet of Christianity. Yeah they do share some blame but so do Jews. You dont have to become a caricature of a /pol/ack to notice this, I mean leftist Jews will literally claim this themselves, they just see it as a good thing.

The ancien regime had some weakly eugenic aspects but they were incidental. It arguably also had some dysgenic aspects. A state devoted to eugenics would be something quite different in any case.

>>21674567
>>21674491
The two dumbest /lit/ browsers in one place

>>21674545
>It was created good but it can be corrupted.
Flowers grow in shit. Is shit evil and flowers good?

>>21674587
Everything I said was completely correct and you are incapable of refuting any of it, which is why you resorted to posting a frog

>>21674602
Shit doesnt have a moral character, it is just waste. It even has a purpose as fertilizer anyway. Flowers can be beautiful but I wouldn't call them good since they dont have a moral character either

>>21674609
So what is corruption? Is this just rephrasing God into a less magical metaphor? Is this the same problem as before, now newly obfuscated by vocabulary? Why is "good" creation corruptible? It cannot be good innately or it shouldn't be able to stop being good. So we have God now as "incorruptible" and the world/creation/life/not-God as "corruptible." It's only a few hairs that need splitting to call this "gnosticism," which is of the same species of idea

>>21674661
>Why is "good" creation corruptible? It cannot be good innately or it shouldn't be able to stop being good. S
Doesnt really follow. Its because he gave us the choice. And the angels as well imo, it only makes sense to me that Lucifer had a choice.

It's nothing like gnosticism. It is a celebration of the world.

https://youtu.be/Z28Mi6mUyKo

>>21673685
>posts Wagner
>hasn't listened to Parsifal
Parsifal is one of the most convincing expression of the Christian religion ever created in art.

>>21674678
>Doesnt really follow. Its because he gave us the choice.
He doesn't exist so the rest is just incoherence. Something outside of the the world, which also created the world, is giving us a choice to get out of the world? Now that is something that doesn't really follow. Why would I worship a scientist if I am his expendable lab rat?

>>21673685
Read Ellul.

>>21674698
It's not just about getting outside the world, it is finding grace during this life too.
>he doesnt exist
But you don't know this.

>>21674706
As an aside this is the part of Christianity that interests me. Seeing God in creation. I have never cared about the idea of heaven

>>21674706
>you don't know this
So you are just doing a bad faith / Pascal's wager thing? You sure you picked the right religion to be unsure about? God will know his own they say

>>21674718
I'm not doing any sort of wager, I'm not a christian. It is the religion I have looked into the most because it resonates with the religious experiences I've had much more than other religions. Specifically the sense of mercy and love but embedded in something tragic and broken, and the apprehension of this infinitely "other", unknowable thing that is the source of beauty and meaning.

>>21674715
>As an aside this is the part of Christianity that interests me. Seeing God in creation.
That's pantheism, not Christianity, unless you mean it metaphorically.

>>21674728
NTA but it sounds like you're on your way to becoming a Christian anon, good luck.

>>21674733
I mean in the sense of theophany. Like you're seeing the light of god reflected in his creation. Not pantheism because then we too would be God since were part of creation. There is still distinction between god and his creation even if signs of him can be seen in it

>>21674744
>There is still distinction between god and his creation even if signs of him can be seen in it
Then there is still a shadow of nihilism cast upon your world

>>21674744
Ah ok that makes sense

>>21673939
>The strong are supposed to lead the weak
>"the meek will inherit the earth"

>>21674780
thats not what the word meek means there

>>21674753
It's not nihilistic to me because there is still that light of god. I think it is delusional to claim that the world in general could be God because the world is obviously not all good and beautiful. But that's not nihilism.

Of course it would make more sense if God werent omnipotent. But that's another matter

>>21674795
>the world is obviously not all good and beautiful
It doesn't have to be. But if there is an "all good and beautiful" God, why would he first make this world and then secondly give instructions to follow on how to be let out?

>>21674738
I dont think I will ever really become a christian. I have hyper specific views about metaphysics and so far I have not found any way to make them mesh with Christianity entirely. And I mean the mere fact of trying to do that is a kind of pride antithetical to submission to God in a sense. I'm not starting from christ and building a system around him, I'm building a system and then checking to see if he fits. So that's not really the right way to be

I also do various types of sin and dont really feel bad about it, so I'm unrepentant in their eyes.

>>21674824
That's why I'm not Christian. The answer to this in Job is basically "mysterious ways". And I actually dont find this entirely ridiculous. Why should we get it. Intellectually speaking I dont have a problem with mysterious ways as an answer but something about it feels slightly off to me intuitively.

Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
[5] Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
[6] Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
[7] When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
[8] Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?
[9] When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,
[10] And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,
[11] And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?
[12] Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place;
[13] That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?
[14] It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.
[15] And from the wicked their light is withholden, and the high arm shall be broken.
[16] Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? or hast thou walked in the search of the depth?
[17] Have the gates of death been opened unto thee? or hast thou seen the doors of the shadow of death?
[18] Hast thou perceived the breadth of the earth? declare if thou knowest it all.

>>21673685
>Imbibe the beliefs of some weak-willed philosemitic schizo so much that you become allergic to self-discipline

>>21673870
>Well the Catholic church and their pedophile protection program is rather nauseating
Do you believe everything the kikes on tv tell you?

Why would anybody listen to a wigger?
>>The prime anti-Western fantasy for our age, however, was expressed by Nietzsche. Two years after hearing the piano score of Wagner's epoch-making opera Tristan and Isolde, Nietzsche made a lifelong commitment to sexual revolution by deliberately infecting himself with syphilis in a Leipzig brothel. Thomas Mann saw in that gesture an act of "demonic consecration." Whatever the motivation, Nietzsche was outraged when Wagner had second thoughts. When Wagner "prostrated himself before the cross" by writing Parsifal, Nietzsche flew into a rage not only against Wagner but against German music and all of Europe as well. Turning his disease-damaged eyes southward, he began to discern what he termed the "lewd melancholy" across the Mediterranean. As an antidote to Wagner's prostration before the cross, Nietzsche discovered Africa. "This music," Nietzsche writes, describing his impression of Bizet's Carmen, "is lively, but its liveliness is neither French nor German. Its liveliness is African. It has this destiny; its happiness is short, sudden, and without pardon. I envy Bizet, therefore, because he has the courage to give impression to this sensibility, a sensibility which up 'til this time had no expression in European music, a more southern, browner, more burned sensibility. ... How the yellow afternoons of this happiness give us pleasure! We look out and believe that we have never seen the sea calmer. And how this moorish dance speaks to us so tranquilly! How even our insatiability learns satiety from its lewd melancholy! Finally we have a love that has been transposed back to nature. Not the love for of some "higher virgin"! No Senta sentimentality! Rather love as fate, as fatality, cynical, without guilt, cruel - and as a result just like nature. That love which is war in its means, and at its basis the deadly hatred of the sexes" [my translation]

-E. Michael Jones "Degenerate Moderns"

>>21674898
but N was a virgin

>>21674898
Nietzsche didn't actually care about Carmen, he was just being ironic. Tristan und Isolde doesn't doesn't advocate for a sexual revolution either. Jones is 99% of the time just lying or mistaken about history and only occasionally says something insightful.

>>21674898
E Michael Jones is a schizo

Christcucks are too dishonest to understand or oppose ideas, so they attack the person. As always.

>>21675852
It's not only that they attack him, but that they desperately dig into whatever they can in his life to find something to attack him with. It is amazing the sheer amount of butthurt Nietzsche still creates to this day.

>>21673685
>Last Christmas I had to leave the mass because I felt like throwing up
Are you sick or something?

>>21674884
>Nietzsche said some good and some bad things about the jews so he was clearly philosemite (only knows him from /pol/ posts anyway)
>meanwhile I, the based anti-semite, worship and pray to semitic deity and follow semitic moral system

>>21673685
You were never a Christian to begin with. You were just practicing a set of traditions. It sounds like you're a herd animal desu. Others do the thinking for you. Christ is the way, but you need to seek Him yourself. Start with the Word and prayer, God will light the way.

>>21673685
You were never a Christian to begin with. You were just practicing a set of traditions. It sounds like you're a herd animal desu. Others do the thinking for you. Christ is the way, but you need to seek Him yourself. Start with the Word and prayer, God will light the way. Do your own thinking for once; build your own relationship with Christ.

>>21673942
>Niezsche's ideology is perfectly compatible with contemporary [social] left-wing thought
What the fuck are you talking about. The man was absolutely anti egalitarian, espoused aristocratic hierarchies based on the subjugation of inferior peoples to value creating biological superiors. He was very literally openly and directly a proponent of eugenics. Are these left wing positions?? Does anyone here even fucking read anything he's said. Jesus Christ.

OP if you don't literally believe that Jesus rose from the dead you will never truly be drawn back into Christianity. You must believe in the Resurrection truly. This is a matter of supernatural faith, I'd argue no book can help you. I think you need to pray, more than anything else.

>>21673879
you literally have never read nietzsche and have no idea what you're talking about

>>21673685
Jung, Mainländer, Stirner

Nietche is one of the biggest and most tranniest antichrist jew lovers in history but still enjoys a lot of attention because of his reddit like nature. He's literally the r/atheism of his time and you can extract practically zero of value from his shitty style. This nigger couldn't even talk to women properly and his writing is escapism. People just don't know better because he's popular and most retards can't fucking entertain frameworks without being consumed by them.

>develop visceral disgust for christianity ever since
Freud and Nietche were some of the most succesful goy mutilation projects in history.

I had a friend that studies philosophy. Literally 3 quarters of retards made their dissertation or whatever it's called on Nieche

>imb4: you didn't even read nietche, you don't know what you're talking about, etc
This is the basic response and it's like this because of his style. Some people just get what they want from it., it's always a problem with these types of writers and it will always be.

>>21673685
The Age of Reason by Thomas Paine

>>21674104
>Once people stopped believing in christian god (in true sense, not in the sense of tradcath zoomLARPers and grandmas with too much time), which was always inevitable, the dead corpse of christianity naturally gave birth to progressivism
Which means that Christianity is not progressivism, that is, when things are Christian, they aren't progressive, and things only become progressive if Christianity stops. It's like you're saying, "when people stopped maintaining apple orchards, they started eating dirt, so apple orchards are why people eat dirt". They'd have apples again if they went back to tending orchards.

>>21676918
Christianity is responsible for doctrine of innate human rights and equality. It all rests on a claim that god made man in his own image, therefore they are equal in his eyes.
This is the basis for all left-wing revolutions (american rebellion, french 1789 hoi polloi chimpout, russia 1917 untermensch marxoids...), which in turn lead to the world as it is today.

>>21677280
you're more or less right, but allow me one nitpick: the american revolution was organized by deists who are just barely christian. they modeled the united states on ancient rome, not a christian utopia like later revolutions. one might also note the america revolution was the only one of those listed that was not immediately followed by a bloody terror. make of that what you will.

op i tried to get into tradlarpering until one day the cardinal read that one about how a rich man is like a camel and how you should donate all your money to a non-profit if you want to be part of jesus clique. i was like nope, i'm out.

>>21677313
>not a christian utopia like later revolutions
The fuck are you on about? Later revolutions were explicitly anti-Christian.

>>21677280
Christian institutions promote equality before the law but hierarchy in function. Priests work on behalf of their Bishop for example.

>>21677313
>not a christian utopia like later revolution
No revolution or attempted revolution sought this.
The Christian age revolutionized the Roman world and became the establishment until the industrial revolution. Christianity continues to be establishment, though a diminished role

>>21673795
Rilke stole his waifu

>>21673942
absolute reddit coal, i hope you get ravaged by a pack of pitbulls

>>21674218
The theological christian position is the restoration of all things, including physical existence, into the New Jerusalem, the final manifestation of the logos of all things whose substenance is found in the Logos of God, the Son who is the first among a multitude of newborn children, not man as it should have been but one even more glorious than the first Adam.
Material existence is not rejected at the end but redeemed, embraced. The assumption of gnostic attitudes that proclaim the final destruction of all matter as the end of christianity and the continual, purely spiritual existence of disembodied souls is not christian but gnostic in origin, and one of the many erros that protestantism is prone to fall into. That Nietzche directs his critic at this, being a german and thus in the hotbed of these heresies, alongisde being himself an hedonistic masquerading his own hungers with philosophy, is no wonder at all.
Of course, it matters not in the end: Your kind will call everything but the absolute, hedonistic acceptance of vice "life rejection"; not even understanding that the so-called "life rejecting" attitude of christianity can't be anything but natural in your own worldview by virtue of being in the world, and thus, as part of reality as the suffering and evil you glorify, or ehem, "accept and embrace", as you commonly put it.

>>21673939
the funny thing is, Christianity subverts the greed and pride of man.
while someone wholly preocuppied by their standing and control will say the weak should fear the strong, Christianity tells you that being the strong one, you should serve your brother, and being weak, you should strive for the strength to help (as opposed to the strength to tunr from the oppressed into the oppressor of mundane men)

>>21673685
read theology.
the insidiousness of authors like nietzsche, hitchens, and the rest of them is that, not knowing the fallacies they're building their argument on, you might be swiped up by their false premises and notions.

tell me, what are your biggest problems with the faith? "stumbling blocks", so to say.
i'll be preemptive and tell you that you've fallen to the equivalent of a churchgoer with no theological knowledge being pestered by an edgy teen who saw some video of a dude using a fallacious argument and is parroting it.

>>21678858
Why even bring up Nietzsche and that third-rate anglo hack in the same sentence?

>>21678893
because their arguments are all the same thing.

>>21678898
>Hitchens's political views evolved greatly throughout his life.[27] Originally describing himself as a democratic socialist,[28] he was a member of various socialist organisations in his early life, including the International Socialists.[29] Hitchens eventually no longer regarded himself as socialist, but continued to admire aspects of Marxism.[30]
Read pic. They are literally antithetical in every single way. Nietzsche would be disgusted by him. Dont know much about hitchens myself but he always striked me as one of those anglo new atheism midwits who somehow rejects existence of god while affirming every single one of christian moral values, too dimwitted to ask where could they possibly come from or how could they be valid without god. Similar to dawkins. Complete non-enteties. Following paragraph from Nietzsche basically dismantles their cringy movement
>“When one gives up the Christian faith, one pulls the right to Christian morality out from under one's feet... Christianity is a system, a whole view of things thought out together. By breaking one main concept out of it, the faith in God, one breaks the whole: nothing necessary remains in one's hands.
So yeah, actual atheists would act like hitler or stalin, not like some moralfagging modern socialist. I feel bad just mentioning his name.

>>21673795
He was a failed christian, so yes.

>>21673879
You don’t read

Become a buddhist if you want, at least you could have that much as your lens. Don't become another flighty and drifting anchorless person OP, there's enough of those around already

>>21673685
>Are there any books that will bring me back? Last Christmas I had to leave the mass because I felt like throwing up
The Quran brother

>>21673685
Holy shit what happened? Nietzsche used to be /lit/'s bread and butter and now tradcaths are dunking on them.

>>21675776
>>21675824

Jones has written tomes of worthwhile literature and is extremely knowledgeable when it comes to history, religion and philosophy. Its actually a breathe of fresh air when he goes off on tangents to illustrate a character with some personal bias in something otherwise entirely referential. I guess some guy on a basket weaving forum whos never written anything can make a better case for Nietzsche's perspective.

>>21680218
>is extremely knowledgeable when it comes to history, religion and philosophy.
Lol. By what standards? He has very generic knowledge on most subjects, and again, what he adds to that is mostly false and only occasionally insightful. Everything is marred with a dogmatic temperament which makes him claim things like Nietzsche intentionally infected himself with syphilis, all modern architecture comes from sexual degenerates or Hegel viewed history as based on strife instead of love because he had sex out of wedlock. It's the ridiculous end of conspiracy theorising.

I'm sorry you're a retard who holds your own opinion and historical knowledge so low. Everything I have said should be obvious to a relatively intelligent, sane person.

Is the ultimate redpill to realize that Nietzsche was anti-Christian on account of being pro-Jewish?

>>21680781
>jews under romans: buckbroken, genocided multiple times, their country and soveregnity gone, temple destroyed
>jews under two thousand years of "persecution" by christianity (their moral weapon): more powerful than ever , wealthier than ever, have their country back-which is supported financially and politically the most by christians

>>21680905
>ignores the major cases under both regimes which show the very opposite
I suppose it's expected for your interpretation of history to be about as simple and contrived as an anime.

This is a troll thread

>>21680930
Cope. The only time jews were seriously threatened since christianity became dominant religion in Europe was under atheistic/neopagan fascism.

>>21680946
>ignores history and repeats himself
Many of your favourite anti-Christian Emperors were extremely friendly to the Jews.

>>21680997
Christsisters...

>>21681008
Thank you for showing that your entire worldview comes from /pol/ infographics. But Antiquity was rather different from our consumerist world. The triumph of Christianity equated to the loss of Judaism. This is a simple historical fact. Even if you think Christianity is to blame for the position of Jews today. To see in it a two thousand year conspiracy is beyond retarded.

>>21681039
About as likely as nietzsche being anti-christian because he was pro-jewish

>>21673685