/lit/ - Literature

>>21652856
>How do I avoid being a "western buddhist"
spoken like a true western buddhist

>>21652856
Unironically read Julius Evola's doctrine of awakening.

>>21652856
Read the pali canon.

>>21652867
Don't read this.

>>21652860
no true scots

>>21652856
Find a legitimate Dharma center or temple and join. The fact that you already understand that Buddhism is a religion is a good start. Be careful, there's a lot of scammers so vet hard and do your research.

>>21652856
>Coomaraswamy: "Buddhism today is known for everything the Buddha never taught."
George Grimm. Doctrine of the Buddha.
https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.70145

Western Orientalist first contact was with Theravadans, pejoratively "annihililationists", "nothing more than this-ists", compounded by Theosophy and then New Age popularizers.

Buddhism was a neo-Sramanic reform/revival of Vedanta succumbing to empty ritual, getting back to original metaphysics and apophatic/retroductive practice (jhana: to burn off/away). You want the Dhammapada and

The Principle Upanisads, 1 vol. trans. Rhadhakrishnan
https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.148291/page/n9/mode/2up

The Upanishads 4 vol. trans. Swami Nikhilananda, comm. Adi Shankara
https://archive.org/details/upanishads-by-nikhilananda

Shankara. Vivekacudamani & Upadesa Shasri.
https://arshabodha.org/wp-content/uploads/abc/teachings/adiShankara/Vivekachudamani_eBook.pdf
https://archive.org/details/06-upadesa-sahasri-volume-5/Updesa%20Sahasri%20by%20Adi%20Shankaracharya/01-Upadesa-Sahasri-Summary/

And understand 'anatta/anatman' is used as a noun less than a handful of times in the Pali canon, and anyone telling you it means "lmao no soul" is totally ignorant.
>neti neti
>this not that
>"x is not the soul, y is no the soul ..."
>burning the haystack to show the needle
>objective negation leads to subjective synthesis
The Platonics will also have useful material to this end. There's nothing to convert to, especially not in Buddhism: Brahmayana "path to the One/Absolute" as he called it is the antithesis of the nihilistic self-exterminationist readings endlessly perigrinating around the lesser soul/ego without reference to the source and ground of Being at all.

>>21652856

This, sangha is one of the triple jewels after all.

Try not to get too tangled up with schools as well, all of them have some good insight and rituals as well as contradictory ones. As long as you arrive at some sort of stage of enlightenment, then you will have done well.

>>21652903
>Dharma center or temple

In my experience it's either Monastery or nothing. You will be led down an unbuddhist path by going to anything else.

>>21652856
You always start with the 'Jeets. Note that reading books=/=conversion.
>>21652981
Shankara is my favorite crypto-Buddhist. But to appreciate him you'd want to read Nagarjuna first.

>>21652856
you want the suttas, especially the SN ones fro the redpill
https://americanmonk.org/free-pts-sutta-ebooks/
you can read all this in 1 month if you are neet, otherwise jsut do this :
take 1h to read that and you'll be up to date and know more than 99% of the alleged buddhists :

>start
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/MN/MN19.html
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/AN/AN6_63.html
>middle
https://suttacentral.net/mn148/en/sujato
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN12_51.html
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/AN/AN11_1.html
>finish
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN54_8.html


speed learning about buddhism with videos
-the redpill which is the ajahn brahm teaching for monks
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtnuVoJXWhM&list=PLQ_Y6m62B_MVZVGIzfjqrpoUmszVMcxWV
-then work slowly with the soft pill which is the retreat for lay people, so watch the other ones here (watch the QA too)
https://www.youtube.com/c/AjahnBrahmRetreats2011-15BSWAMedia/playlists

>>21653093
>This, sangha is one of the triple jewels after all.
*sangha when there is buddha organizing it

>>21652874
>Don't read this
Why? Just because it is written by le scary nazi? I think it is the best condensation of the teachings of the pali canon that exist.

>>21653096
Interesting. This seems to be true for Christianity also.

>>21653158
It's a very forced interpretation and follows his usual schema of divvying up something into based/solar/telluric and cringe/lunar/chthonic. It is "western Buddhism" from a less common angle.

>>21653105
wtf is retreat exactly

>>21653186
You are proving you have not actually read it. This 19th century anthropological perspective forms a very minor part of the book. You don't need to take any of that stuff seriously. The dept of which Evola delves into the doctrine and especially its phenomenological aspects in the second part of the book, "practice" is unparalleled as far as I am aware. Truly amazing stuff. But now that I think of it I probably would not recommend it to a beginning student of Buddhism.

>>21653186
>tulluric
you meant to say Olympian

Seek out the sangha anon that is what they are for. Avoid anyone who tells you buddhism is just a philosophy bro, or buddhism is scientific bro, or denies rebirth and kamma, or says ackshually buddha was a socialist.

>>21653186
>>21653201

His explanation of the four jhāna and the three doors of liberation are especially elucidating.

>>21652856
Like some others have said, go to a monastery. That's the only way to learn the authentic way. If possible, go and live with them for a couple of months, and get "properly" initiated. Read the Pali canon as well, and the Jataka Tales on the side for something more "fun" and educational at the same time.

Evola is the typical atheist who loves mahayana.

>>21653201
>You don't need to take any of that stuff seriously.
Obviously you do otherwise he wouldn't be your cardinal recommendation for secondary Buddhist literature. He's neither a Buddhist nor a specialist in Buddhism and is easily outclassed. There's an argument to be made that when that book was written it was more valuable, especially since the nikayas were not fully translated into any modern European language and the protestantized readings made popular by British translators were misleading. But by today's standards it is "Evola's book on Buddhism" more than anythin and you will be treated to him droning on about what all true warriors strive for

>>21652856
>convert to Buddhism
buddhism isn't a religion

>>21652856
you dont

>>21653240
It is a religion but none of the Asian forms have really managed to root themselves here and function the way something like Christianity—what we really mean by "religion"—has historically. There are a handful of large monastery/retreat centers that have been built but by their very nature these don't function as parishes or offer the sorts of pastoral and communal services we'd expect from a religion nor do they really have the lay population density to do so. Among native "converts" it skews to the affluent and educated, who have been avoiding historical or traditional forms of religion for generations. Buddhism got here too late, although it is possible to imagine a future where some form of it is the most attested to "religion" of the elite, who most assuredly will not be very good at interpreting it from such a culturally sterile background in religion.

>>21652856
Anyone who follows the five precepts is 100% Buddhist. Whether or not that person dedicated himself to reaching enlightenment by becoming a monk is another story entirely.

>>21653229
Again, you have only read the first few chapters so your opinion about the book is invalid, and thereby also your statement that it is "easily outclassed". I suggest you give the parts of the book I mentioned a look.

>>21653386
>your opinion about the book is invalid
typical tradfag lmao

>>21653422
>I have no further arguments so I respond with an ad hominem

Typical leftist troon. cope and seethe.

>>21652856
Do you have to be vegan to be a Buddhist?

>>21653704
I would say no, looking at example of Tenzin Gyatso's behaviour, though I hope you're not asking this out of the (very Western) "I need muh meat with everything" mindset.

>>21653704
Vegan, no. Eggs, milk, etc are fine because the animal isn't killed.
Some schools(mostly Chinese) require vegetarianism for monks. But most of them acknowledge that meat-eating is necessary since the alternative is often starving.

>>21652856
pick a tradition, take refuge and start practicing

>>21652981
>Buddhism was a neo-Sramanic

Buddhism is not neo-sramanic, buddhism just is sramanic

>revival of Vedanta
not at all, Buddhism is the opposite of Vedanta, all the main principles of buddhadharma contradict the Vedanta principles

>apophatic
Vedanta is not apophatic since it posit a positive principle(brahma) behind it's metaphysics


>Shankara
this is the most buddhist author in your list mainly because he and his masters Govinda and Gaudapada were crypto-buddhist, but is better to just study the real stuff if you wanna dwell into buddhist practices

Join De Monarchia to discuss about literature, philosophy, religion, poetry and other related subjects:

https://discord.gg/gjPgBr3x

>>21654645
you will never be a queen

>>21652856
You don’t. Just start practicing. Find a community of practicers and ask them for help. Or don’t. It doesn’t matter

>>21652856
Just wait until you reincarnate as an Asian.

>>21652856
The Pali Canon is the only authoritative source on Buddhism. Mahayana so-called “Buddhism” is drivel.

>>21652860
kek
>>21652856
You avoid it by being asian, dumbass.
Otherwise just take the substance and leave out the label. Nobody respects white buddhists, as you may already know. Especially asian buddhists.
I've never seen a black buddhist, however. That would be a fun sight

>>21652981
>Brahmayana "path to the One/Absolute"

that's a bad translation, buddha did taught the brahmayana, but the brahmayana is the path to be reborn in one of the brahma realms, which is an inferior goal to nibanna, brahmayana is designed for the peple who want to cultivate virtue but are not reay to do the hard practice, when buddha said that he taught the brahmayana what he's saying is that you don't need to practice vedanta since his system already can take you to brahma, but brahma will cease to exist and you'll be back to samsara, so nibbana is the most desired goal since is an actual radical change

>>21652856

>how do i avoid being a western buddhist

by not being calling yourself as a white guy

can't you just subscribe to the tenets of buddhism without it being your identity?

>>21655217

calling yourself a buddhist as a white guy*

>>21652856
You want to be a Buddhist? Well, first of all you have to get rid of that desire! Congrats, you no longer want to be a Buddhist, unless you do still want to, in which case you'll never be a Buddhist

>decide to become a buddhist
>have to wear asian/indian clothing to look the part

i thought buddhism was a philosophy not a whole culture where you adopt the clothing, language, etc

>>21655209
brahma wasn't used to mean absolute yet either, it was used in the sense of a brahmā, one of multiple top-level jeetgods who Buddha asserted were subject to birth and death and who even in the Pali scriptures he would have debates with personally on the astral plane. In the nikayas there is also brahmacarya in the sense of virtual or ethical conduct which the buddha separates from the idea of brahmins as a distinct caste one must be born into. Not aware of a brahmayana which might be a gap in my knowledge, a translation oddity, or a neologism. If it literally is just the "way" of [worshipping a] brahmā then that is pre-Buddhist and not an actual "vehicle" so to speak taught by the Buddha as liberative

>>21655234
The aesthetics is part of the philosophy.

Just read Krishnamurti and dont bother with all the rest of that trappings of local cultures stuff

>>21652856
move to a country that practices it. marry a woman that practices it. have children that practice it

>>21655012
>Nobody respects white buddhists
That’s true, ywnbar Buddhist, Anon. Fortunately the West has a wealth of traditions, like Neoplatonism, Hermeticism, the Christian Mystics, Rosicrucianism, Kabbalah, Freemasonry…

>>21655601
>he doesn't know

>>21655290
Jiddu or UG?

>>21652856
Dhammatalks.org

>>21655638
well, it's not about being white per se. those greek-bactrians were probably fine

>>21653704
>>21654386
The Buddha said that a monk is innocent in eating meat if the animal was not killed by them, killed by their request, or they saw the animal killed. Sakymuni Buddha’s final meal was in fact pork from a butcher that invited the sangha for a meal.

>>21655601
On Buddha's marks:
"When he came back to this state of existence he obtained these two marks:his eyes are deep blue, and he has eyelashes like a cow’s."

Lakkhaṇasutta

>blue eyes
>eyelashes like cow's

>>21655698
Well Buddhism still exists as a living religion while most of the stuff you mentioned is effectively extinct.

>>21655734
Umm chink bros...

>>21655667
Not him but the cultural trappings line sounds like Jiddu
He does not consider himself a Buddhist though so an odd recommendation.

>>21652856
you don't.

>>21655601
>>21655834
>He is gold colored; his skin has a golden sheen.

>>21652856
>How do I convert to Buddhism?
Begin practicing the noble eightfold path.
>Where do I start?
I recommend "The Buddha's Ancient Path" by Piyadassi Thera as an overview.
>How do I avoid being a "western buddhist"?
By being a Christian.

>>21655601
>Neoplatonism
>Hermeticism
>Christian mysticism
based. rest is cringe.

I find it interesting that Buddhism reproduces patterns of devotionalism and anti-devotionalism over and over again, that follow the same responses to consciousness. That Pure Land is as inane as other traditions earlier, and further West. That Cha'an is as pure as a solid beam of light piercing itself, and as corrupt as Showa Fascism. That gods and monsters are reinvented and overthrown. That Buddhisms move through heavens and hells, and the absence of being. That it is monist, dualist, and non-dual at the same time. That reincarnation is the physical reproduction of a personality, or the endless apparent movement of the attention of consciousness. That I am you in the future, and that I am you in the past, and that I am you now, and that we never have existed.

Most importantly Communist workers need to shoot fat monks. This is most important when the monks claim to be communist, and the real communists dress as monks.

Above all I am glad that the most important buddhist texts in my upbringing was a guide to cheating in exams, and a collection of edited folk tales about a monkey forcing Daoists to eat his poo and beating up Daoists, and that I was exposed to the pinnacle version: the British free-dub of a Japanese transvestite "gravure model" edition. Though the examination cheating book is pretty good. I like the fox koan, and the koan about the monk on the hill, the old woman, and the village slut.

>>21655231
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn51/sn51.015.than.html

>>21656418
>the village slut
they took this from us—not just the slut but the whole damn village

becoming a white buddhist is cringy

just find something western that is similar

>>21655734
>:his eyes are deep blue
that's a common mistranslation, in reality the word used is "abhinilia"and it means pitch black eyes" the confusing arises because a lot of times in india and tibet the color black wich was expensive was represented in art with a deep blue, in fact most deities you see with deep blue skin like mahakala or vajrapani in reality are described in texts as having black skin, is just that deepblue is an easier color to work with than black

>>21656558
You'll be stuck in samsara with this strategy.

>>21653186
Is it really though? It just seems like a description of Theravada, although this word isn't mentioned once in the book.
>>21653227
He calls it pozzed in the book

>>21655601
Ha yes the famous judaic mysticism kek

>>21652856
Leave your house, then walk around in increasingly large circles clockwise until you find a Buddhist temple, then join it. Only so will you about Westoid religion shopping and follow the right path.

>>21656818
Can I do a simulation of that on Google maps so I don’t actually have to walk in circles? It will result the same. Actually can I just search for the nearest Buddhist temple? But what if it’s not Zen? I like Zen better than the other denominations: Before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood, carry water. Kill the Buddha on the road! Those are such great one liners! But I also want to try Tibetan Buddhism. Can I experiment a little before I make up my mind?

Anyone here read Reexamining Jhana: Towards a Critical Reconstruction of Early Buddhist Soteriology by Grzegorz Polak? He studies Buddhist texts to discover the jhana techniques.
The conclusion he comes up with is quite interesting although he says early Buddhism is lost and what we have now are reconstructions.

>>21657071
>Can I do a simulation of that on Google maps so I don’t actually have to walk in circles? It will result the same.
Both the destination and the journey are important, anon

>>21652981
No. Don't do this. What a bore! Do shikantaza or chan style silent illumination. It will be even more boring but at least you'll learn something.

If you want to do what he suggests join a Buddhist religious studies and philosophy program at a university.

>>21652981
>>Buddhism was a neo-Sramanic reform/revival of Vedanta
Buddhism and jainism are independent of any turd by the Hindus.

Don't simply visit your nearest monastery and submit to them as some people in this thread have suggested - if your goal is to practice as the Buddha taught for the remainderless fading away of dukkha, you will have to be discerning, as every monastery will have different practices, styles, routines, cultures etc. Sangha is important but the sangha is defined as the four types of noble disciples (which even the lowest, the stream enterer, is already enlightened), NOT some general community of people who call themselves Buddhist. If your goal, on the other hand, is simply to be part of a spiritual community, then finding a suitable monastery should be easy enough.

You should studying the Pali canon, primarily the Sutta Pitaka, as they are the oldest and most consistent texts that would be our best bet with regards to what the Buddha actually said - "well-expounded by the Blessed One, to be seen here & now, timeless, inviting verification, pertinent, to be realized by the wise for themselves." Avoid too much secondary literature, whether of the 'canonical' Theravada sort such as Buddhaghosa's work or the modern western kind - keep yourself as close to the original words of the Buddha as you can. With a certain amount of study (and practice) you should be able to discern a little bit more when something is faux-Buddhism or actually corresponds to the dhamma.

Focus little on 'meditation' and much on your behaviour - follow the 5 precepts, see fear in the slightest fault, practice sense restraint, slowly start abandoning dependency on sensual pleasures and distraction, endure anger and pain, be moderate in eating, incline towards seclusion, ponder and reflect on the teaching, see impermanence, unsatisfactoriness, and not-self in what you hold dear. All of these things you can read about in the Sutta Pitaka.

Then if you feel like your practice would benefit from further going forth, you can look for a monastery that would be suitable environment. If you want to become a monk, don't go to a monastery that will force their practices on to you nor one that would make your first years full of duties and responsibilities and company, as often happens. Try to look somewhere rural in Thailand or similar.

>>21657071
>But what if it’s not Zen? I like Zen better than the other denominations: Before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood, carry water. Kill the Buddha on the road! Those are such great one liners!
it's entertaining crap made up by normies in order to feel enlightened because deep down they hate buddhism in the first place.

So you have Theravada as some version of Buddhism, Mahayana and Vajrayana. Mahayana is the Hollywood version of Theravada and Vajrayana is the Hollywood version of Mahayana.
Guess what version women love the most and what version women hate the most.

>>21655870
Buddha was brown not chink

>>21657766
kek another protestantized take on what the true buddhism is from /lit/

>>21652981
That’s not Shankara’s (pbuh) actual commentary, it’s loosely based on his

>>21657766
What do you know about Vajrayana practice?

>>21652856
Meditate. Do your best to be a good person. Help others. Live selflessly understand how universal suffering is. Seek calmness in your mind

>>21654567
>Vedanta is not apophatic since it posit a positive principle(brahma) behind it's metaphysics
Like pretty much all apophatic doctrines, Advaita Vedanta uses both negation and affirmation. The idea that if you include any amount of positive affirmation that you cease to be an apophatic system is frankly nonsensical since almost every apophatic system in every religion uses affirmation in some way, often in combination with apophatic negation. The idea that only a total 100% negation without any affirmation anywhere is "real apophaticism" is a silly self-serving narrative that is also ahistorical, moreover if taken to its full conclusion it makes the spiritual path meaningless.

>>21659235
>The idea that if you include any amount of positive affirmation
i'm not saying that, i'm sayign that if the CORE principle of the system is positive, then is not apophatic, buddhism is apophatic because it never says what's beyond nibbana, it only says what nibanna is not

>>21659442
>i'm not saying that, i'm sayign that if the CORE principle of the system is positive, then is not apophatic,
That's also not widely accepted and it is an idiosyncratic and ahistorical definition since the overwhelming majority of religious doctrines/schools classified as 'apophatic' by scholars of religion involve a root spiritual principle that is treated as positive in some manner.

>>21657766
>>21659070
Vajrayana is not just giving itself its own credentials based on it being exclusively, entirely and authentically what the Buddha said, taught, and preached, but Buddhist scholars’ and practitioners’ own working with it over hundreds to thousands of years and finding a system that works, as well as significant Indo-Tantric influences. In Tibet, Guru Rinpoche Padmasambhava (the legendary founder who brought Buddhism from India to Tibet c. the 8th-century) is practically just as revered as Siddhartha Gautama is, being like a “second Buddha.” People have frequently noted how silly it is to try to apply a Protestant hermeneutic to Buddhism (I.e. “Let’s just get the original core texts that exclusively matter, without all the later commentaries and interpretations.”)

Vajrayana is Vajrayana, just as Zen is Zen, practically existing in its own realm apart from reliance on a historical Buddha. It’s similar to way “Yoga” or “Tantra” are extremely broad terms nevertheless covering a similar band of practices and beliefs, and has merit based on its spiritual practicality (to use a seeming oxymoron, maybe, to most readers), not on whether, “It’s really what the historical Vishnu said,” “It’s really what the historical Shiva taught,” “It’s really what Krishna wrote and preached” etc.

>>21659070
>>21659502
However, the Tibetans also have their own legends that the origins of the Vajrayana vehicle of the Buddha’s teachings/his tantric teachings, come from Siddhartha being taken aside by a king, who said, “Your teachings are wonderful, but as a king, I cannot give up this life and follow the rigidly ascetic, Hinayana-style discipline. Do you have any teachings for such as me?” Supposedly, this was the origin of Vajrayana, but it’s just a legend.

I think the ultimate test of some spiritual system, method, teaching or technique is its transformative effect on the practitioner. From this angle, Protestant-style snobbishness about Buddhism (“Everyone except some barebones Theravada sects in Central Asia are Disneyland-Buddhism”) doesn’t really have any weight if the system itself is still positively and impactfully transformative. It’s not a dickwaving contest about how authentically we can go back some 2,500 - 2,600 years ago and as authentically find out exactly what the Buddha said, wrote, taught and preached and exactly mimicking him in every way, but rather it’s a question of what we can get here and now, rationally and pragmatically, in our own state, our own condition.

>>21659519
pragmatism means you dont spend your time with teachings failing to end suffering. If you are a pragmatists who wants to end suffering, you stick to right meditation and right view, not on pompous self aggrandizing teachings like in Mahayana, let alone Vajrayana, where ''everybody is already enlightened, you just don't know it yet'' and your life will not need to change to get this super knowledge.

>>21659917
Ehhhh, maybe if you’re Alan Watts, but do you see what these communities actually do? Even in the Americanized zendos or Tibetan meditation monasteries they set up in the West, let alone in their actual places of origin. They definitely do expect a great amount of “change of oneself” or “discipline,” speaking conventionally, for monastics or those who want to be officially initiated by them, at least. Hours-long sitting practice and the like. But even saying it like this gives the risk of turning enlightenment into “the Spiritual Olympics,” “how many hours I can sit”, which isn’t the full-shtick according to any qualified teachers or practitioners of these (Mahayana or Vajrayana), even if it’s heavily included. Post-meditation practice and how you generally live your life, keep awareness over yourself, “purification of body, speech, and mind” in Tibetan terms, is also a part of the discipline.

You realize the Hinayana or Theravada teachings and practices are inevitably ALSO kept in Mahayana and Vajrayana as the primordial basis, backbone, and discipline of it? It’s not like they’re just not doing meditation (or trying to, at least), or don’t have to have some working concept of “shamatha-vipassana.” They’re fundamentally very similar, even when there’s regional eccentricities.

>>21659917
No authentic Vajrayana teacher says "you're already a Buddha, you don't have to do anything lmao". Before you even get to the main practices you have to accumulate 500,000 recitations of prayers and mantras, and 100,000 of those are accompanied by physical prostration.

>>21657766
god I love that webm

>>21658586
kek at this cope just to salvage the mahayana turd.

>>21659962
I am correct. The criticism of "just read the oldest texts shorn of any tradition and use those to reconstruct early Buddhism and assume this is what Theravada does as opposed to Mahayana" is entirely rooted in a hyperprotestantized hermeneutic. You'd like Nichiren Buddhism's relationship to the Lotus sutra more than Theravada's with the nikayas honestly.

>>21657071
If you go to the supermarket on Welfare Wednesday they have little samplers of Cha'an you can eat. Instead of actually sitting, you can just fill up on "samplers" from five or six supermarkets.
Pro-tip: you can live in trash and sewers and policemen will be reluctant to touch you. You can read bookstore buddhism and you will be reluctant to abandon you.

Children are vegan if you're hungry btw.

>>21657071
>Before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood, carry water.
This is the exact opposite of what zen "teaches." There is no before nor after enlightenment, there is no birth, no death, no journey, no self, no other. You'd be clipped on the head if you said what you said to a master.

>>21660237
>You'd be clipped on the head if you said what you said to a master.
M A S T E R here.

If you're tired from drinking and fucking prostitutes, or praying and sitting, and you don't hear what they say, just hit them anyway.

Also demand food from peasants, its a great trick to avoid doing work. If the peasants get uppity just use complex considered hitting people as your physical practice and get anti-revolutionary china to make films about you.

>>21657766
how do you prevent yourself from wanting to inflict violence upon this woman

>>21659985
>and assume this is what Theravada does
It's not an assumption, it's what Theravada actually teaches. You can read scriptural commentary and teaching by Theravada bhikkhus and find this out yourself. It's not "hyperprotestantized", you are simply projecting western ideas onto an Indian school. There is no such equivalent to Protestantism in Indian religion, if we can even call it that, Theravada has been functioning for thousands of years now on similar principles, which place more importance on the earliest texts that they have recorded and actively preserved. Mahayana had a tendency to diverge into philosophical speculations using reason and intuition, which is almost precisely the opposite of what Gautama urged when telling his Sangha to hold fast to the Eightfold Path and Four Truths and scorn dialectical reasoning. If we look at the general picture of Buddhism from this perspective, Mahayana actually ends up looking like a closer equivalent to Protestantism than the Hinayana, but the point remains that introducing the idea of Protestantism here is still totally foreign to eastern religions.

>>21660277
>how do you prevent yourself from wanting to inflict violence upon this woman
Heavy dissociative psychotropics ought to destroy the "you."

>>21660304
more like your brain

>>21660353
They tend not to. Mind perhaps, but not the brain.

>>21660278
>There is no such equivalent to Protestantism in Indian religion
Of course not, "just read the pali canon" Buddhism is a western invention

Formally, conversion means taking refuge in Buddha, Dharma and Sangha. This is the basic Hinayana pledge. Mahayana and Vajra schools have all their particular additional initiatic practices and usually require guidance of a lama, roshi, etc.

The bottom line is that it is inherently embarrassing as a Westerner to stoop down to pajeet "thought". You deserve to be mocked if you find that shit compelling.

>>21660278
>There is no such equivalent to Protestantism in Indian religion
You are missing the point. It is not that Theravadins are Buddhism's protestants but that you have a protestant methodology without reference to protestantism, a hyperprotestantized criterion, being projected into "Buddhism" which here must be unearthed through a process of "identifying which sect uses the oldest texts because that's good, and excluding newer sects with newer texts because that's bad." This isn't how Theravadins approach "Buddhism", as they have a received tradition which has canonized a body of works and closed it, and therefore they aren't doing this church shopping that goes on in our demolition-site culture because "Buddhism" is what they have as Sri Lankans and they aren't circulating the same set of texts the Tibetans or Japanese have and consider "Buddhism." This sort of aggressive textual criticism which assumes an essentialism to a submerged, golden and inerrant source under attack by interpolators eventually killed the bible so I suppose it is only a matter of time before this gets applied to the Pali Canon—can we use philological methods to figure out which parts of scripture are not consistent authorship and suggest they be thrown overboard? It is a goal even more at odds with Buddhist soteriology than the Mahayana speculations you denounce.

>>21660396
the basic foundations of western sciences are already pajeet

>>21660396
And what do you find compelling? Pretending to be Christian because you think it's a racial religion? Have you read your book?

>>21660410
Elaborate.
>>21660413
I'm not a Christian.

>>21652856
>How do I convert to Buddhism?
actually believe that buddhism is real
>How do I avoid being a "western buddhist"?
actually believe that buddhism is real

>>21659070
The goal of Vajrayana is to achieve buddhahood in this lifetime. It is a set of different practices designed to basically fast track the path to liberation. As such, it is extremely hardcore, karmically speaking. It involves taking the bodhisattva vow - a pledge to remain within samsara for ALL remaining lifetimes until all sentient beings have been guided to liberation - and additionally tantric initiations, which require strict observation and total obedience to the guru. Breaking tantric vows is very serious and from what the tibetans say might condemn a being to countless rebirths in the preta and hell realms before a favorable human rebirth. But again, if you believe the lamas, then a person with great compassion and discipline who follows the Vajra path can cause immeasurable good merit for all. This is why you often see the tibetan yogis treated with such reverence, like living saints

>>21655711
>a monk is innocent in eating meat if the animal was not killed by them, killed by their request, or they saw the animal killed
Isn't that even worse in a way though? It is all the indulgence of food without ever having to acknowledge where that food came from. That is the reason factory farms still exist and suffering for animals is even greater because of that mentality. Can't believe he said that.

>>21660500
>It is all the indulgence of food without ever having to acknowledge where that food came from
You have to think about this pre-legalese. Buddhism with begging bowls, not the Buddhism with monasteries that owned serfs. Buddhism where you were a hobo on the king's private wilderness for several months until the rains stopped, not Buddhism where you are being supplied with donations for tax avoidance purposes on a regular basis. Someone gives you a meal, do you turn down their meal and tell them you must not eat it? Some religions say yes because the point of the dietary restriction is to form a community. Buddhism says no because the intention of the donor is presumed virtuous, the life has already been taken, and you ultimately need to eat. The dietary restriction is on your conduct and not others' conduct toward you. It's not meant to become a routine that say, a butcher gives you beef so you give him a blessing and call it even, even if that's an abuse of the system that is possible. You can abuse any system and that's why volition matters and why the soteriology is ultimately a self-directed one.

bodhisattva vow seems kinda cucked
imagine never being able to say see ya later faggots and fucking off the samsara

>>21660385
>"just read the pali canon" Buddhism is a western invention
It's clearly not. Most Western Buddhists go straight to Zen or the Heart and Diamond Sutras.
>>21660402
>but that you have a protestant methodology without reference to protestantism
You're making this up. The Theravadins themselves base all of their teaching and doctrine on the original texts, with a degree of interpretation and instruction placed over it for properly comprehending what was once said by Gautama for those who possibly lack comprehension. I am not projecting anything, this is simply what the Theravadins hold to and it's why they will typically place their own claim to the legitimacy of the Buddha's teachings over those of Mahayana. That is not what I've done, it's what they did and continue to do. It's not that "the oldest text is best", it's that the oldest texts happen to remain closest to the authentic teachings of Buddha, one reason being the fact that they are less temporally displaced, but this is not the sole reason. Mahayana would be acceptable if it didn't directly violate the teachings promulgated by the Buddha himself, if this were the case there would be no need to criticize it at all for placing importance on sutras which were written down much later. So it seems like you've misunderstood the entire point of contention and are still leaning heavily on your Protestant nonsense.
>as they have a received tradition
No one said they didn't. The point is the Theravadin "received tradition" is less distorted by philosophizing and intellectualism than certain others.
> This sort of aggressive textual criticism which assumes an essentialism to a submerged, golden and inerrant source under attack by interpolators eventually killed the bible
This kind of "textual criticism" was employed by the Church Fathers, which resulted in one of the longest lasting and powerful religious institutions in the world (which is again not to equate Theravada with Catholicism or anything similar). Your belief that emphasis on particular writings is destructive is simply wrong. What is entirely important is the spirit with which the texts are dealt with. An authentic spirit leads to an authentic tradition (The Church Fathers, Theravada), an inauthentic spirit leads to an inauthentic tradition (Mahayana intellectualism, Protestant rationalism and sola scriptura). That's what this discussion really comes down to, rather than your belief that the only thing which matters is the extent to which texts are emphasized.
>can we use philological methods to figure out which parts of scripture are not consistent authorship and suggest they be thrown overboard?
This would be completely erroneous to begin with because it is simply not important who wrote the dialogues down. Anyhow, there are already Theravada bhikkhus who actually have employed philological techniques in examining these texts, so it is not even actually at odds with anything. There is no harm in it.

>>21655711
>Sakymuni Buddha’s final meal was in fact pork from a butcher that invited the sangha for a meal.
It's also the meal that poisoned and killed him.

>>21660599
>Mahayana would be acceptable if it didn't directly violate the teachings promulgated by the Buddha himself
this a problem internal to the nikayas as well, where the Buddha will say something to one person and something else to another regarding the same question, and even non-Buddhist Indian sources took issues with this. It is a weak argument against the legitimacy of Mahayana as a Buddhism. Clearly interpretation is needed to get the point across and both Theravada and Mahayana are trying to do this. There are baptized elements of Mahayana, especially exoterically, which are found nowhere in the nikayas/agamas but came from converted peoples, though charitably speaking what is being done underneath all the later sutra and shastra literature is a commentary on those same problems posed by the teachings Theravada is looking at and how to best achieve them. These got condensed into new sutras and the telephone game continued among different participants, which is still going now. The Theravadins started playing telephone again so it is only a matter of time before you get offshoots that are more like Mahayana than Theravada, like all these hyperprotestants approaching the nikayas the way Nichiren approaches the Lotus sutra. It will happen. Give up on sectarianism and read and practice all that you find efficacious.

>>21660545
Nobody to see later. Nobody to see now. Catch you later Sariputra-Polyphemus.

>>21652856
"What the Buddha taught" and "with each and every breath" are good introductions very close to the authentic Buddhism. Try not to read anything that you don't trust. I just saw a talk with ajahn brahmali on this topic which was terrific https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3BOhqfYhOw.. I would recommend Theravada or Theravada influenced writers.
There's a lot of conflicting opinions in this thread and that is rather natural, as Buddhism is a solitary activity and a personal journey. It's easy to say that this movement or that movement is wrong or false but most of the movements are trying their best to reach enlightenment. I personally recommend Theravada as it's the most down to earth tradition and the closest to what we can reasonably guess is what the Buddha originally taught. Ymmv.
Be well!

>>21652856
Being a "western buddhist" is better than not being a buddhist at all.

Different anon here. I don't know if I should become a Buddhist or a Christian. I feel an incredible spiritual pull towards the mystical within my soul. But Buddhism considered Christianity illusory and Christianity (real, ie Orthodox, Christianity) considers Buddhism demonic.
I yearn for clarity.

>>21660679
Will yes obviously in some time Theravada will split again but do you right now believe they are an authentic and useful source of teaching?

>>21660846
mysticism is a dead en to end suffering

>>21660846
If it makes you feel better Christianity considers everything that isn't Christianity demonic.

>>21659940
I think you're right that straight up dismissing anything that's not Theravada is wrong.
However, in this information age and the massive amount of movements that exists having a sect that is purely traditional is a great boon. Part of the western Theravada being such a stickler Is, I believe, a reaction to all of that. And they also "got the goods", in the transformational criteria.

>>21660259
? Does zen masters have a bad rep? I'm interested

>>21660679
>this a problem internal to the nikayas as well, where the Buddha will say something to one person and something else to another regarding the same question, and even non-Buddhist Indian sources took issues with this. It is a weak argument against the legitimacy of Mahayana as a Buddhism.
Again telling half the truth, a fallacy in order to salvage Mahayana. The full truth is that the order of magnitude of the discrepancy is way way way higher with Mahayana.

Mahayanists say explicitly that the teaching of the suttas are lies and that the buddha only taught the real teaching only in secret and only to the mahayanists.
>>21660679
>Give up on sectarianism and read and practice all that you find efficacious.
Again another lie. There is no gain into mixing a bit of mahayana with theravada. Mahayana is its religion now, and even by the time of Nagarjuna.
Buddhism is defined by a goal and a daily practice to reach this goal.
Mahayana changes both the goal and the daily practice. That's the reality you live in and clinging to mental masturbation to desperatly save mahayana won't improve people's lives.

Note that all this debacle would have never started if Mahayanists accepted they were not buddhist in the first place.
Mahayanists believed their own propaganda they can't go back without looking like ass.


The good news is that buddhism is still more or less available, no matter how hard Mahayanists tried to kill it.

>>21655685
What happened to him?

>>21660990
Hey do you have a source on the "Mahayana believes the Buddha taught them secretly?" And if the other guy could contest that. I'm suspicious of Mahayana but if that is true it's the final nail in their coffin for me. To believe the Buddha taught two different teachings is almost calling him a liar.

>>21661005
he was a western buddhist

>>21661049
I mean he spent two decades in Burma... How do you be a monk so much time and then say the phrase "masculine dhamma"?

>>21661057
same way you could keep a dogs tail in a straight binder forever and when you release it it will still curl

>>21660944
>demonic
I think a lot of people have a flawed concept of what demonic does or can mean. I'm not saying you in particular but I know for myself as I've watched the world unfold and become more interested in the state of things, the state of myself and the philosophical world Ive come to understand demonic better. It's a rather insidious things, I believe, sometimes it's insidious just because it can appear so benign in its manifestation.

>>21661064
No, I reject the implication that if you're a western then you're stuck as a "western Buddhist" if that's what you imply.
It is a shock to me that two decades of monk training could give such poor results. puts a new perspective on monkhood... Unless someone wants to argue in favor of "masculine dhamma"? I am in favor of debate, but the Buddha never cared much about gender. I'm not learned enough to say exactly why but framing dhamma as masculine or feminine screams absurdity. Don't you let go of things like that by the end?

>>21659457
>by scholars of religion involve a root spiritual principle that is treated as positive in some manner.
that's just not true, maybe by scholars you're refeering to perennialist writers, but those dudes sincretist and revisinist, the opposite of scholars, by definition the "ultimate reality" in an apophatic system must remain beyond description, if not is not a via negativa since you can tell what it is and thus how to arive at it using said description

>>21660836
this

>>21661017
It's always the case that Mahayana believes the Buddha taught them secretly (although that happens too, in for example, the Tibetan Kalachakra tradition, but that would take us too far away) as Mahayana gurus, writing many centuries after the Buddha's parinibbana, and realizing that many of their novel ramblings contradicted Buddhist teaching, made up the notion that these were estoteric revelations given by the Buddha to their most "advanced" disciples (Mahayana gurus and their disciples) and rejected by those of the "small vehicle" (Buddhists).

>>21661017
Mahayana is late:
>During the two centuries from 100 B.C.E. to 100 c.E., as India switched from an oral to a written culture, developments within and without Buddhism caused the religion to undergo one of the most far-reaching splits in its history (...)
Mahayana is fraudulent:
>In taking on the Abhidharmists, the members of this backlash found themselves faced with the belief that the Abhidharma was directly or indirectly the word of the Buddha, so they began composing new Sutras of their own, placing their anti Abhidharma arguments in the mouths of the Buddha and the great arhants, and claiming that their Sutras were newly discovered texts that had been hidden since the Buddha's time.
Mahayana is slanderous:
>the anti-Abhidharma partisans eventually joined forces with the new Buddhist savior cults and other like-minded factions to grow into a widespread movement calling itself the Mahayana (the Great Course or Great Vehicle-yana: a going, a course, a journey; a vehicle). This was in contrast to the Hinayana (the Inferior Course), the new movement's pejorative term for those conservatives who did not accept the new doctrines as truly Buddhist.
RH Robinson; WL Johnson. The Buddhist Religion: a historical perspective, pp. 82-83.

>>21661017
Mahayana puts lies in the mouth of the Buddha:
>This argument is actually advanced in the later emptiness Sutras. For instance, the Lotus Sutra (see Section 5.5.2) explicitly states that lies can be valid "skillful means" (although it avoids calling them lies), which probably explains the Mahayana penchant for attributing its Sutras to the historical Buddha
RH Robinson; WL Johnson. The Buddhist Religion: a historical perspective, p. 90.
Now these were taken from a single book, but any will do, as these points are largely agreed upon by scholars (although those sympathetic with Mahayana will try to downplay them by means of word juggling and coping) and is also apparent by reading any of the Mahayana so-called "sutras", as they are transparently polemical and wordly in nature, light years removes from the serene tone of the authentic Buddhist suttas.

The problem, though, with accepting that the Buddha lies (which Mahayanists do) is the following: If the Buddha can lie, was he lying then or is he lying now? What guarantees that he is telling the truth now, that Mahayana's "ultimate teaching" is not just another skillful means to be one uped by the next would-be guru that decides to write his own sutra and put words in the mouth of the Buddha? Nothing. And what I have just described, is the tl;dr history of the entire Mahayana movement. Each new "sutra" a new "ultimate teaching", a new "turning of the wheel", that relativizes the absoluteness of the last. The Tibetans, for example, hold that the entire Mahayana "tradition" with its second and third "turnings of the wheel " (they call it sutrayana) is partial and inferior to their own mantrayana and Dzogchen. You can write your own sutra today and claim it to be the ultimate teaching (this time is for real, guys!).
The can of worms was openned, and Mahayanists eat from it full.

>>21652856
>How do I avoid being a "western buddhist"?
It's too late
It's like you're asking how to be a black metal fan without being a poser AND you're not even Norwegian. Every black metal fan worries about not being a poser, worrying about not being a poser becomes their identity as a black metal fan. Look, I am not a poser. What's your favorite band? Psshhh that's poser, I like THIS band. W-what, it's a poser band? OH no, oh nononono

>>21660545
The Hinayana path of individual liberation still exists and is totally valid on its own. It is what the Buddha himself taught after all

>>21661492
>>21661502
>>21661528
Thank you!
I agree with your last post about the problem of accepting the Buddha said two versions. Fundamentally, if the Buddha laid down two versions while saying that sect split is a terrible thing, then he is not the person I believed him to be and my conviction is misplaced.
The thing that bothers me is that since a main part of the teaching preserves fully in those later traditions, specifically the aides to awakening, there is enough authentic material in the later traditions to fully follow the path, so there should be arahants. Why didn't they, after directly experiencing and all that, go forth and cut out the material that is grossly inauthentic?
Maybe it's an issue of the later writing being "part of the dhamma" but not, perhaps, the Buddha's. There are a few dodgy texts in the oldest canon as well and the criteria for adding them is that they are fitting with the teaching.
But what you say means that accepting the Mahayana and later texts throws doubt in the Buddha's character and that is completely out of tune with the teaching as I understand them.
Don't know, the fact the flowery language is such an obvious tell bothers me - how come in a tradition all about speaking the truth and self-seeking those obvious tells remained?

>>21660990
>Mahayanists say explicitly that the teaching of the suttas are lies and that the buddha only taught the real teaching only in secret and only to the mahayanists.
This is an extension of the original problem I just mentioned—the sutta pitaka has sermons and directives on the same issues presented differently to different audiences—and sometimes these audiences are, even in the suttas, made up of gods in various heavens. So Mahayana is going to do the same thing, with the caveat that the new teachings were necessarily given to an even more specific audience so they aren't new per se but just new to you, but because, as I am sure you know, it is a competiting alternative of more newly written works, the authors are going to also attribute co-authorship or total authorship to some bodhisattva, such as Maitreya, who would have thus heard this sutra in heaven. Now to modern ears that probably sounds stupid but the same could be said of suttas where the Buddha is debating Brahmā in heaven in the nikayas—did THAT happen or is this a case of something written to compete religiously with the brahminical faith that was stronger and older in India than Buddhism was? Again, I would still say we ought to look to what we find most effective rather than what is oldest and not limit ourselves to certain materials over others without having considered them—which is something Mahayana self-advises against due to the competitive nature of the environment that produced these texts, but we are outside that environment to a great extent and can and should approach the materials, again, in the way most useful to us.
>>21661017
It's a compressed and hostile criticism of Mahayanist esoterical revelation to say the above explanation means "Buddha was lying" but what can you do some people think replicating Asian sectarianisms is the point of studying Buddhism

>>21661528
>You can write your own sutra today and claim it to be the ultimate teaching (this time is for real, guys!).
And that's a good thing. Endless repetition does not by itself prove one understands and may not be useful for teaching some people versus others. If nobody is capable of inspiration except for those who gave the original sermons 2500 years ago, we have something of a problem no?

>>21656592
So which is truer: black or blue? Both are depictions. Doesn't seem to matter.

>>21661575
>Why didn't they, after directly experiencing and all that, go forth and cut out the material that is grossly inauthentic?
Curiously, in the Gotamī Sutta (AN 8:51) the Buddha says that the true Dhamma would only last 500 years:
>Ānanda, if women had not obtained the Going-forth (...) the true Dhamma would have lasted 1,000 years. But now (...) the true Dhamma will last only 500 years.
The Buddha is said to have died circa 483-400 BCE.
400 BCE + 500 years = 100 CE.
Mahayana is said to have appeared circa 100 BCE - 100 CE:
>During the two centuries from 100 B.C.E. to 100 c.E., as India switched from an oral to a written culture, developments within and without Buddhism caused the religion to undergo one of the most far-reaching splits in its history (...)
I'm not saying Mahayna represents the corruption of the Dhamma that the Buddha predicted, but... Yeah.
In the suttas it is stressed that the coming of a buddha is an extremely rare occasion. Rejoice that we still have some of the authentic teachings adn scriptures in the sea of Mahayana sludge.

Skim the wikipedia article on Buddha, read Hesse's Siddharta, stop here.

>>21661575
>Why didn't they, after directly experiencing and all that, go forth and cut out the material that is grossly inauthentic?
Because generation after generation, there are less and less arahants. And entering the sangha is not really hard and everybody can join and change the rules and teachigns centuries later. It is not like every bikkhu in every monastery had access to all the suttas in a neat book.

The teaching is really not meant to be permanent, once the buddha dies. And with the claim that splitting the sangha is a huge mistake, the buddha probably guessed it would turn into a mess.
By the way, rigorously to be become a monk, you need an arahant monk to train you. It is impossible to be a monk when there is no longer any arahant monk alive. In theravada, they bypassed this rule by creating a commentary saying that the rule just doesnt apply lol.

>>21661600
It matters if Anon seems to arive at the conclusion that Buddha was "white" because he had "blue eyes".

>>21661593
>If nobody is capable of inspiration except for those who gave the original sermons 2500 years ago, we have something of a problem no?
It's bigger problem when gurus claim to be the new budha on the block with their flock of devoted normies and yet keep contradicting everything the suttas.

Intellectually it shouldnt be this hard to just say '' i don't follow the buddha, I discovered a new path beyond buddhism''. It turns out mahayanists can't even be intellectually honest....
And even to this day, they become upset when they are told they are phonies.

>>21661637
>In theravada, they bypassed this rule by creating a commentary saying that the rule just doesnt apply lol.
Uhhh don't mention that to the protestantizers that's not the real original Theravada sola scriptura

>>21661655
>everyone is insincere
>huh? no I mean everyone but me
careful with that buddhanon

>>21652856
>Western Buddhist
There's nothing wrong with being a "western buddhist" technically, as long as you follow the premise of Buddhism. You dont need to speak Tibetan, Chinese, or Indian to be buddhist. You don't need to follow their rituals like pray to Manjushri or spin the prayer wheels. You don't need to have a Buddhist wedding. You don't need to become a monk.

>Conversion to Buddhism
You need to take refuge/revere/hold in high esteem/take as your guide/etc in Buddha, his teachings, and the community of Buddhist monks/teachers. Not lip service, but of pure mind.

>>21661663
you do understand that both the academics and mahayanists themselves have no problem saying their teaching is chronologically older, since they base their teachings on the rejection of the suttas, right?
You do understand that it's the guy who comes later and out of delusion of grandeur claims to be the new hot thing, while contradicting and changing everything said previously, to put his money where his mouth is, right?
Let me guess, you don't and prefer to spread the moronic meme of buddhist protestantism.

>>21661637
This is a real issue, we may not be able to produce arahants on earth anymore, as the Buddha himself said that the true dhamma would last at most 1000 years (see above). What would follow if this were true? For starters, arahantship was the maximum, but not the only goal of the teaching — “there are levels to this”, as they say. In many of the suttas that the Buddha is addressing lay followers and inquirers he says that one who follows his teachings will attain a good birth. Maybe the best we can do is hold on to the authentic teachings that we have left and hope to attain a good birth and be born in a future or a world system where there is a Tathagata around, and then aspire to arhantship.

>>21661583
Thank you that is a very good point. I agree with you about potential esoteric entrances of texts - the Buddha himself has much suttas that for modern readers raises an eyebrow. If a text says that a Mahayana arahant heard a god tell him about this or that the Buddha said then that is something, but the picture I got is that Mahayana claims that the Buddha, that is gottama, said different things to different human beings, and specifically that he taught things only to specific persons. If the picture I got is wrong then please correct me.

>>21661637
Really? That must be a painful point in Theravada ha. But doesn't it get complicated because you're not supposed to say you're an arahant?
>>21661628
Thank you. I won't repeat that coincidence in polite company tho lol.

>>21661691
Well it's hard to believe that at least entering the stream is impossible....

>>21661691
Yes buddhism is not meant to be practiced by non-enlightened people when there is no buddha in the first place.

The current situation is odd because the westerners dug up lots of texts and even better, they could compare texts from various sects. In the sutta tradition, the less sectarians are the suttas, the vinaya is a bit sectarian and the abidharma is very sectarian.

The hugely amazing positive news from all this 2 century old research is that most of the thousands of suttas are basically okay. Whoever guarded them over 2000 years did a very good job.
The bad news is that the suttas are inherently lacking details on what happens in the jhanas, ie how do you turn the jhanas into nirvana. The jhanas are famously said to be conditioned, so they can't be nirvana. And the generic one-line in the suttas is that you have to think about the right view inside the jhanas to get enlightened.
Nowadays every is bad at the jhanas and so nobody has a clue what that means.
Nowadays there is the jhana wars between soft and hard jhanas and that's really as far as the intellectual reading of the suttas can go in terms of the jhanas (plus the mess about nirodha samapatti being nirvana or not due to influence of the brahmins thru texts involving sariputta) .

>>21661715
so the being of the path is explicit and easy to understand. Even with right mindfulness the direction is pretty clear. But for instance in the anapanasati sutta, it is said the breath formation stops. Nowadays everybody wonders if the breath really stops. It turns out the chinese parallel to the pali suttas have no problem saying it does.
https://suttacentral.net/t1670b2.71/en/guang?reference=none&highlight=false

so you see meditation is murky and with the addition that hinduism, mahayana and vajrayana made up lots and lots of other useless meditations, and with the addition that the usual daily life and even global life of the western is the exact opposite of what is required to follow the path, the end result is complete mess and lots of people are just lost.

Practicing Nichiren Buddhist here, I'll keep it simple: read the Dalai Lama's introduction to buddhism to get a gist of the universal buddhist values and then slowly make your way through the active denominations. You may start with Chinese and Japanese or Tibetan buddhism since they're widespread in Europe and America, libgen and zlibrary have plenty of resources on them. Also check if you have any temples in your area, go visit some of them and ask them about their beliefs and practices. Here's a little tip: avoid lay sects like Soka Gakkai and find traditionalist buddhist communities which inherited their practices from ancient masters.

>>21661572
i do like traveling light
is there an equivalent in the sino-tibetic sphere?

>>21661691
>the Buddha himself said that the true dhamma would last at most 1000 years
Just when I started studying Buddhism seriously. I'm not feeling so good lads. I'm gonna be stuck in samsara forever.

>>21661691
Nichiren and the Lotus Sutra both address this issue. In the Latter Day of the Law the teachings of the three vehicles will be accessible to few people with special qualities, but the teaching of the Lotus Sutra is accessible to everybody and is assured to lead everyone to ultimate enlightenment.

>>21661815
Just ride the wheel of samsara till the next Buddha my dude. We're all in this together.

Read Schopenhauer

>>21662230
There's no riding of it. There's always a new you that experiences samsara. You will suffer in this life. New you will suffer in next life.

>>21662493
You can take the mental qualities you developed with you.

>>21653704
Not vegan, vegetarianism is recommended though. But its not mandatory.

>>21652856
>Julius Evola
become a sannyasin. the only way to be a buddhist. but honestly tho, don't waste your time.

>>21660980
>? Does zen masters have a bad rep? I'm interested
Cha'an had a pretty good rep when it was the equivalent of a research university. It became trendy and people started sending their second or third sons to monasteries. As a result people started writing down lists of koans and lists of answers to koans. Also I'd strong suggest a lot of the sitting practices are conducted without proper insight into why people sit.

Like all human practices, Zen got popular and went to shit. Then 700 years later Zen got popular and went to shit in the West.

Also pic related.

Given Zen were better Great Yamato Cult Shinto Showa Fascists than the Great Yamato Cult Shinto Show Fascists is it any wonder that Heidegger liked toothbrush face?

>>21662493
what about the good things

>>21665430
>what about the good things
You will suffer in this life. All will suffer in every life.

>>21661600
black is the true one, blue is a mistranslation

what's the best resource for learning pali?

>>21665588
Moving to Pali and marrying a Pali wife.

was it even worth making these dumb autistic accusations against mahayana

>>21661637
>By the way, rigorously to be become a monk, you need an arahant monk to train you.
Then who trained Gautama Buddha?

>>21665666
3/4ths of A Flock of Seagulls travelled through time and trained Guatama Buddha.

>>21652856
There is no "conversion" to Buddhism, as it is not a "religion" in the sense that we understand it in the West. If you wish to practice the way of the Buddha, a start is reading the foundational writings - e.g. the noble truths, the marks of existence, the dhammapada. Buddhanet is a decent resource, the pali canon is, too.
There are many sects of Buddhism, and some actually de-emphasize the importance of reading, and intellectualization in general, in favor of meditation practice.
I would suggest learning how to meditate in a specific style and establishing a regular meditation practice. The Miracle of Mindfulness contains instruction in several forms of meditation, as does Awakening the Buddha Within.
There may be a Zen center or other Buddhist temple you can learn and practice at near you, but in my experience, they charge a membership fee, and I prefer to meditate on my own rather than pay for it.

>>21665666
trained for what?

''solitary buddhas'' are theoretically possible in buddhism. In buddhism plenty of people get enlightened by themselves, but compared to the huge number of living beings, they are very few.
Then some of those dudes either create a church and some don't.
They have to think twice before creating a church because managing a church on a daily basis is a burden, because monks do lots of retarded stuff.

>>21665706
A bit fixated on individuals eh?

>>21665684
Formally taking refuge is basically converting to Buddhism

>>21665684
There is absolutely a "conversion" process in Buddhism. Its the refuge in triple gem. The Buddha, his teachings, and the community of monks.

>>21652867
>Julius Evola's doctrine of awakening.
How would that help him being a Buddhist.

>>21665684
>There is no "conversion" to Buddhism
This is quintessential Western Buddhist. Don’t be like this OP and you’re halfway there.

>>21666286
It would lead him astray into Adharma practices

>>21652856
The first thing you need to do is stop being such a self conscious little bitch. Asian Buddhists WANT you to be a western Buddhist. Buddhism is a proselytising religion; they want it to spread. I mean, how many Buddhists live in India/Nepal, the birthplace of Buddhism? C'mon dude.
The second thing you need to do is actually find a Buddhist place of worship and let them take it from there. Just make sure it's not a cult lol.

>>21652856
Accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior.hdhpdh

>>21666883
convince me

>>21666886
Eternal hell if you dont. Also stone the unbelievers.

>>21666883
no

>>21666896
God doesnt want mercenaries or slaves. If you follow god out of fear of punishment you have a slave’s belief.

>>21666999
>a 69 threesome
The digits have spoken. Christianity is nothing more than a doomsday cult from the final days of the Roman empire.

>>21666999
Checked!

>>21666841
Buddhists kind of want it to spread. They transplant monasteries. They would prefer no new people are born. They want everyone to end their own suffering but they don't and are explicitly not allowed to convert people actively.

>>21666883
How would you interpret Christianity in a Buddhist framework? The most boring thing would be to simply state that it’s false. A more interesting thing would be to take Christian claims at face value and reinterpret them in a Buddhist cosmology. I’ll start.
Yahweh is a minor asura pestering the Hebrew people, demanding that they give him their foreskins for some reason.
But asuras live in a kind of heaven in the Buddhist universe. Maybe Yahweh is not even an asura, but a mountain deity or demon like in Tibetan Buddhism. So make Yahweh the genie of mount sinai.
Jesus is a Bodhisattva that used skillful means to deliver the Jewish people from Yahweh, claiming he was the son of God the Father (he never calls him Yahweh). God the Father is actually a carrot on a stick to skillfully move the Jews away from their petty mountain deity worship and system of sacrifice to something transcendent. He would eventually tell them about the four noble truths but the Pharisees cut his ministry short.
Alternatively he’s just some hobo who picked up dharmic ideas from eastern merchants coming to the Roman Empire for business.

>>21666883
>be "saved" by spending literally all eternity doing the exact same thing constantly without end or respite
Not sure about this, anon

David Reynolds/Pannobhasa is an American ex-monk who practiced Theravada Buddhism in Burma for many years. He has a lot of videos on a lot of topics and answers questions from viewers. If you're fine with the right wing perspective, his channel may be of use to you. He used to (or maybe still does) run a blog called "politically incorrect dharma". I'm not a Buddhist but I like his videos. He has books too. I think he was a monk for like 20 years and if I remember right he can read Pali, which is the language of a lot of Buddhist scripture/scholarship/whatever.
https://youtube.com/@pannobhasa/videos

>>21667738
Interesting. Does he have a BitChute or Odysee channels in case he gets taken down from YouTube?

>>21667756
Yeah, he used to only be on bitchute. He often has a nazi/Hitler respecter on who is also a Buddhist.

>>21667738
Isn't he still a monk?

I loved his take on Hegel, he actually read and tried to understand the whole phenomenology (let's face it, most people just read secondary accounts)

Here's a hint: if you're starting from the perspective that Buddhism is so much more scientific, humanistic, individualistic and non-supernatural than Christianity, you're always going to be a Western Buddhist because Buddhism as actually practiced in the east is none of those things.
Unless you're a monk, most Buddhists spend most of their time praying and making offerings for a better rebirth. Traditionally only monks meditate and recite sutras. So unless you want to be a monk, you'll always be practicing a form of Westernised Protestant Buddhism.

https://youtu.be/XKdkSsSK2v0
>Mara made Mahāyāna
Based.

>>21667845
What if I start from the perspective that buddhism is less scientific (more focused on the transcendent), less humanistic (hierarchies exist not all beings are born equal), less individualistic (the raptures coming to suck up me and my church and everyone else is gonna have to suffer eternally while I laugh at them) and more supernatural (do I even need to explain this one, supernatural starts and ends where the church tell you it does) than Christianity?
Also most buddhist practitioners meditate in the east, but there is a big difference between a lay practioner closing his eyes and reciting a mantra to Amitahba than a monk practicing a method of non identification.

>>21667792
He is no longer a monk.

>>21667845
I never understood where that meme came from, Buddhism is a very clear 'religion' and not some extended meditation practice.

>>21667971
because buddhism has no creation myth and no rules for lay people. buddhism doesn't try to rule over lay people and create social rules.

>Mahayana
More like Maha Judea amirite

I never actually performed any initiation. I just started and showed up at a local prayer meeting with a bunch of questions lol

>>21653704
Japanese farmers will donate a deer carcass to a Zen monastery.

>>21665666
In our Sangha the list of Patriarchs start with Buddhas before the Buddhas. I am not sure exactly what their status was - they existed in other realms or something.

>>21653704
There is no veganism in Indian religions. Even Jains consume dairy products. Indian religions promote vegetarianism, not veganism. But no you don't have to be even vegetarian to be Buddhist, at least not according to its modern followers. Most Buddhist monks in Myanmar consume meat.

https://youtu.be/MkY373SFzzU

>>21668024
Who are these “people?”

Regarding Christianity…well it’s a series of illusions around things that are not present, and a set of ethics of forgiveness honoured in the breach.

If gods are real to you, yeah sure it’s a kind of demon cult which tried to stop being a demon cult. And now the demon imprisons and tortures a bodhisatva.

If gods aren’t real same as above only using anthropological and sociological language.

>>21668219
But after the monks fuck it do they eat it?

>>21665666
Buddha is self-enlightened. That's why they chant sama-sambuddhasa. It's one of the basic descriptors of the Buddha, the self-enlightened.

>>21668714
Is there a Buddha that we are not? Is any instance not Buddha? We became enlightened then, and at other times, and the connection between them aren’t as much of a problem as your fixation on masturbating to Indonesian engravings.

>>21668371
>Even Jains consume dairy products
used to*

Modern Jains reject dairy as it involves killing micro-organisms. They also reject eating bread for this reason. Getting the trads to accept this is an ongoing struggle in modern Jainism.

>>21657757
>>21659917
>>21659947
>>21660237
For anyone in this thread who's interested. People struggle with this "already enlightened/awakened" concept as did I but it's actually quite simple.
The more obvious part is that the sense of self is already an illusion and that just needs to be realized by investigating experience. The other part is that the future is conceptual so there's no future in which you will become awakened, and when awakening "happens" clearly enough it's obvious that the apparent experience of "not being awakened in the past" is merely a memory (a particular flavor of thought) appearing now, and as such the past is unreal and never really happened. All it takes is letting go of your "story" and seeing through these mental overlays which then naturally reveals what's really here.
I'm not against practice or intellectual knowledge, but the irony is that we practice and study only for the totally unexpected realization of what has always been the case, and that none of that practice really led us here (how would you get to where you already are?) because it never really happened. But merely believing this and anatta like a philosophy is a mistake, so "until then" by all means practice.

>>21670316
Too much talky, expect old man stick hitty.

>>21670341
*dodges your stick and slaps you*
At this sick counterattack anon was immediately enlightened.

>>21667536
>the same thing
yeah, because that one thing is THAT awesome
>>21666886
Don't ask me. Ask God to convince you.
>>21667104
>How would you interpret Christianity in a Buddhist framework?
You don't
You can however interpret Buddhism in the Christian framework:
Jesus broke reincarnation and made Resurrection.

>>21670316>>21670316
>>I'm not against practice or intellectual knowledge, but the irony is that we practice and study only for the totally unexpected realization of what has always been the case

the reality is that ''being already enlightened'' is not taught by the buddha and that their advocates
can't explain how suffering arises from this ''already enlightened state''. And even worse those can't help themselves to bring back their fantasy of luminous mind as the new heaven to long for.
It's complete intellectual and practical disaster.

>>21670726
I agree in some sense. The "already enlightened" thing seems obvious once enlightened (or at least during a "glimpse" as far as I can say), but if the mind places it in a temporal/causal context and claims ownership of the experience then the insight/glimpse will seem lost again. From the unenlightened perspective it's a pointer that misleads many, I assume this is why the Buddha avoided teaching it. It does however point quite well to the understanding that awakening is primarily a cessation of ignorance and certain mental activity rather than a mere addition of intellectual knowledge or actions. It's realizing what's really here rather than adding more to it.
Ultimately I think clinging to the idea that one is already enlightened is a hindrance, even after stream-entry. In my opinion, whether we really are already enlightened or not doesn't matter that much; the experience of being someone experiencing not being enlightened yet is illusory, but that experience still seems to be real while it does and pretending it doesn't is delusional. Therefore some kind of practice is necessary to see through it.

>>21652856
>How do I convert to Buddhism?
Visit a local temple and ask about it. In Buddhism it's called "Taking refuge", since you aren't here to worship a god. Please ask them to explain any vows and commitments too. Often, people take the 5 precepts, which are pretty straight forward, but are, in fact, vows.

You should also pick a specific tradition, as they can be quite different in their practices and methods.

If you want to avoid being a "Western Buddhist", don't treat the Dharma as decoration, and practice well, listen to your teacher and the teaching, and try honestly. Don't proselytize or bring it up unless it's relevant.
>>21652867
I highly recommend not doing this.

>>21661815
>buddhadharma dead now what
look out for pratyekabuddhas the sigma males of buddhism

>>21670726
>>21670977
I forgot to say, there's also a realization that nothing could have possibly ever been any other way, it's so obvious yet somehow went unnoticed; that there's no separate experiencer to experience, that a sight sees itself, a sound hears itself, a thought thinks itself, etc. But again, if the mind then tries to make sense of it in reference to a separate experiencer it'll become a vague memory of something being obvious but not quite knowing what exactly.

>>21659947
>you have to accumulate 500,000 recitations of prayers and mantras, and 100,000 of those are accompanied by physical prostration
what does that do

>>21671042
>what does that do
It does a whole lot of nothing. And nothing is a quite important substance in most Buddhism.

People read descriptions of banter from my Buddhist tradition, but they don't realise that the banter is in the form of 20 years of rigorous study, and then dissolution of study, and then integration of study but not as study, and then integration as study but not as study. And that most of this isn't for the content, but the practice of non-positive non-negational non-dualistic non-monistic mindfulness.

So if another tradition uses repetitive words and physical movement, I can appreciate that this is probably about as legitimate as my tradition's sitting staring at walls and language puzzles which are meant to be meaningless, but the meaninglessness is presented to disciples in an order designed to assist the development of emptyingness.

Pure land is utter bullshit and they need to be hit with sticks until they die.

>>21671131
then why do hindu traditions do it

>>21671168
>then why do hindu traditions do it
Go ask a hindu.

>>21668219
>Japanese
>Zen
>monastery
Japan doesn't have monks.

>>21671170
im guessing it's some esoteric reason rather than "it'll just make you realize the futility of everything bro"

>>21671183
Well enjoy guessing what you want about Hinduism. If it parallels what you've guessed about Buddhism you'll never need to read Said.

>>21671131
You don't know shit about Buddhism, repetitious chanting is practised in every sect and one of if not the earliest devotional practise; you even do it when taking refuge.

Wow, this thread still going

>>21671209
You seem full of anger, why is that?
You seem to think that doing a lot of nothing isn’t an achievement, why is that?
You seem to think that Pure Land isn’t just State Shinto expy, why is that?

>>21671234
>Pure Land isn’t just State Shinto expy

>>21671234
I thought you were retarded when I read your previous post. Now you confirmed it.

>>21671246
>I thought
You did! Here's 100 prayers you don't need to do, imagine that's like you gave a monk four bowls of food!

>>21671242
Are you Tibetan or Thai, because frankly I only know my shameful nipshit genocides.

>>21656592
>>21661600
>mahakala
Literally means "great black" in Sanskrit, so yeah.

>>21668024
Buddhism does encourage certain behaviour for the layity.

>>21671374
It does more than encourage, it's got a pretty long list of activities and professionals that will outright send you to hell in particular he really fucking hated entertainers.

>>21652856
There is no "I" to convert to Buddhism and there's no "Buddhism" either. Just follow the 8-fold path and read some old texts kid.

>>21671411
>What's the deal with comedians..

>>21671415
Buddhism has always had a concept of individualism; a eternal element, it doesn't deny a self or the existence of a 'soul'.

>>21671411
>pretty long list of activities and professionals that will outright send you to hell
i'm guessing it also has banking on it

>>21671526
OY VEY!

>>21670470
>yeah, because that one thing is THAT awesome
Not sure about this man

>>21665306
Thoughts on Ikkyū?

>>21671706
you sound so sure that it's necessarily boring to do a single thing for ever.

>>21671227
you will never be a woman

>>21672227
I'm definitely not sure that doing the same thing for actual endless eternity is even comprehendible let alone desirable.

>>21673175
you are definitely sure that doing the same thing for actual endless eternity is incomprehendible and undesirable.

>>21673462
Wrong.

>>21670470
>>21671706
>>21672227
So then to be free from boredom/suffering Heaven necessarily means an eternal absolute freedom from the desire/craving for anything other than whatever is happening. Sounds familiar. Jesus has more in common with Buddhism than he does contemporary Christianity, which is equivalent to deferring Nirvana to some other realm at a later date in some imagined future. You can meet God in Heaven right now, or at least have a taste of it if an after-life is also true, Mystics like Meister Eckhart knew this. Heaven and God are not conceivable, they're totally unlike anything you can imagine. We habitually overlook that the inner depths of the soul are an emptiness that once truly recognized and rested in becomes filled with God. I don't intend to disparage your beliefs but rather to encourage curiosity; there are deeper and richer depths to Christianity than most Christians know.
btw >>21666883 thought you might want to know that ironically your digits have the number

>>21671995
>Ikkyū
Tozan's three blows was a good choice. The problem with Ikkyū is people want to follow him without having received three blows.

Teasing me about having one eye is pretty fucking rude, I am glad you have two eyes, you say between us we only have three eyes? I shake my fist at you.

>>21671042
It purifies negative karma and accumulates merit

>>21673517
>an eternal absolute freedom from the desire/craving for anything other than whatever is happening.
you're thinking too hard
The one thing I'll be doing in Heaven for eternity is so awesome that nothing else compares.
>>21673476
cool. then you understand that doing only one thing forever isn't necessarily bad.

>>21652856
>How do I convert to Buddhism?

bow to a Dharma teacher and thank them for promoting the Dharma

>Where do I start?

Walpola Rahula 'What The Buddha Taught'
ahandfulofleaves.org

>How do I avoid being a "western buddhist"?

Dont read Tricycle magazine, dont live in Marin county California

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kszKqbtmUfY

>>21659947
>Before you even get to the main practices you have to accumulate 500,000 recitations of prayers and mantras, and 100,000 of those are accompanied by physical prostration.

do not slander the Buddha. He said no such thing.

'woe unto you who mislead those who seek the truth, you yourselves have not entered, and those who would enter you have discouraged and impeded'

>>21673757
>do not slander the Buddha. He said no such thing.
Not when its Wild February and premium dharma unlockables are so cheap. You can break through the grind cycle of prayer and achieve [near] instant enlightenment if you buy these three kit items and equip them.

>>21673668
>The one thing I'll be doing in Heaven for eternity is so awesome that nothing else compares.
We agree here. But you're thinking too hard; stop thinking altogether and what is revealed in this very experience right now? I suggest there is nothing other than that one thing. Heaven is closer to you than your thoughts are; when you conceive of God and Heaven as something distant from you and other than this, you turn away from them.

>>21673553
Between you, that other anon, me, and everyone else in this thread, none of us have any eyes. But if we catch sight of each other I'll give mine to you and take yours. Where else would we keep them?

For any religion the only way to convert is to actually go to a place of worship and participate. Go to a monastery and ask the people there about it, they will be happy to talk to you and will be extremely accepting. I've been a Buddhist in New York since I was 9 (I grew up poor and decided to pursue an academic career path so I've never been outside of the US) I've been to many different monasteries and no place is more welcoming to outsiders. My teachers have been Taiwanese, Chinese, Lao, and Sri Lankan, so I am confident in saying that I'm not a "western buddhist"

>>21673708
>>Dont read Tricycle magazine
lol that's true, same with https://www.lionsroar.com/

>>21671042
>>21673651
you can't purify karma with words and as per the buddha, purifying past karma is not needed for full enlightenment, contrary to jainism, hinduism and mahayana and vajrayana

>>21656027
The only good stuff is founded on false history, huh?