/lit/ - Literature

Actually Alfred Schuler was the prophet.

>>21654861
>criticizes abrahamic eschatology by stating they believe something that isn't said anywhere
As man sick another one of these?

>>21655041
Tikkun olam
Day of Judgment
Frashokereti

All of these are imply a "progress" towards the "renovation or perfection" of the world.

>>21655067
How so

I read part of that book on him and he seemed to be calling Socrates a dirty Jew and also seemed to be saying that something like the demiurge was colonizing everyone’s mind and that we need to RETVRN to our Aelfin origins or something like that. I can see why this guy is seen as a schizo but he seems pretty original

>>21655069
It philosophically has to do with the idea the world was created by a "commandment". For example, Klages claims the Abrahamic/Mazdan notion that the world was created from a "commandment" is "logocentric", for it treats life as existing in a state of sin and in need of being renovated or "perfected"; the logocentrism inherent in spirit fundamentally weakens and erodes the soul, as evidenced by "rhetoric of progress" leading to the destruction of primeval forests and biodiversity, mass migration and miscegenation, loss of communal ways of life and traditions, and estrangement from nature as a result of a "purpose" in rectifying the "the fall".
There was no need to "fix" life. It was already perfect the way it is.
Secular liberalism and scientism were both outgrowths of Abrahamic and Mazdan progressive eschatology/soteriology.
>>21655118
He prefers the hylozoism of the pre-socratics and dislikes the Socrates' obsession with reason. The idea that "reason" can be used to improve the world is likewise logocentric.
Not a single positive thing has come from any rational/conceptual thought or notions of progress. The idea that the discursive mind can be used for positive is delusional. Check here for more reviews on Klages:

>>/lit/thread/S21305207
>>/lit/thread/S21041494

In this thread, I wanted to mainly focus on how the notion of "progress" is at the root of most modern delusions. There is no such thing as "progress".

>>21654861
>>21655133
Do you guys know of any lit fiction that is "Klagesian" in its outlook? Is Charles Williams any good?

>>21655133
This doesn't follow whatsoever. Not only is logocentrism not adequately defined but it's application isnt sufficiently invoked. And im not even sure that's what abrahamic beliefs actually are depending on how you're using the sentence that it must be renovated. Not only that but the movement from talking about commandments to human negative environmental impact is did drastic and unprecedented it's basically non sequitur.

>>21655133
you cant blame progress on abrahamic eschatology. That makes no sense whatsoever

>>21655167
Klages was heavily influenced by the German romanticist poets like Eichendorff, Holderlin, and many others. He was also influenced by many segments of Geothe's Faut, both Parts I and II.
I'm not sure what else could be Klagesian. Many Pre-Socratics do feel Klagesian due to their hylozoism. I think Homer, the tragedies and plays of Sophocles, and so on could be deemed as Klagesian too.
>>21655178
I was analyzing the genealogical development of the notion of "progress". If you pay attention, the rhetoric of "progress" is what underlies much of these issues.
One definition of progress is "advance or development toward a better, more complete, or more modern condition". This can be symbolically traced to ideas of a "Last Judgment". This is why Transhumanism, likewise, has quasi-religious tones to it. The Singularity is merely the magical incarnation of Tikkun Olam on this plane.
Nothing good has ever truly come from "progress". Progress is of Geist and the ultimate destroyer. Everything is perfect the way it is until notions of "progress" infringe on life.

Now, I will tell you of the most evil and vile Jew this world has ever seen.

>>21655067
Tikkun olam I agree on, day of judgment and Frashokretti I would take in a different light, and end time prophecy is not the same as a prophecy of messianic fullfillment. The messianic aspect of christianity is by definition fullfilled, the idea that the kingdom of god is not of this world is central to that, you can hardly call christianity to be a progressive theology akin to judaism whose messianic prophecy remains unfullfilled

>>21655206
>This can be symbolically traced to ideas of a "Last Judgment"
How? You're not substantiating a single claim you've made in this entire thread. The fact you equated all abrahamic religions under one eschatology is proof of your religion.
OP it seems like you read the author with the presuppositions of TedK and racism and are now desperately grasping at straws.

>>21655178
Not OP but it’s basically the notion that the world is essentially Fallen, nature is a false goddess, Satan is the prince of the world etc. Basically Abrahamism seems to “problematize reality” in various ways and it usually calls on its adherents who are “born of sin” to apply laws from their holy books to the world to try to fix it. Ideas like “man is naturally good” are diametrically opposed to the Abrahamic orientation

>>21654861
>>21655178
>>21655206
Theodor Lessing and Ludwig Klages had a kind of conflict and rivalry. In fact, I would call Theodor Lessing the original Nick Land. You can see how, in some sense, Lessing "prophesied" Transhumanism. Lessing was the percursor to figures like Yuval Harari and Ray Kurzweil, in some sense.

>Theodor Lessing – Reason lies in conflict with Life, and aims to wipe it out in the sense of both converting it into technological creations as well as theoretical models. Reason – or spirit/god-satan – will be victorious in this conflict, and though we ourselves must choose which side to pick (spirit or life), Lessing believes we must ultimately side with spirit. The conflict, however, never goes away completely, and we can use this to step outside of the conflict and reflect upon it as a thing of metaphysical beauty. Similarly, we are never allowed to make a complete choice for one side, as that would be delusional – all our choices and models are created from our values, and are thus not only ever-changing, but always the creators of lies. We must come to accept this meaningless situation and embrace and choose it for ourselves.

>>21655225
But that isn't true

>>21655226
these philosophers are so far up their own ass it's insane. it's like they wanted to be like the greeks but had no idea how to get there

>>21655223
There is no such thing as progress. There is nothing to grasp or gain. One's original (vitalistic) nature is already pure and perfect.

"Christianity may mouth such phrases as "the welfare of mankind," or "humanity," but what the voice inside these formulas is really saying is that no other living being has the slightest intrinsic value or purpose, except in so far as it can be forced to serve the purposes of man. From time immemorial, the "love" of the Christian has never prevented him from persecuting religious pagans with a murderous hatred; and this same "love" doesn’t prevent him even now from abolishing the sacred rituals of conquered tribal cultures. It is a well-known fact that Buddhism proscribes the killing of animals, because the Buddhist recognizes the obvious fact that each and every earthly creature shares a common nature with man himself. But when one objects to the Italian’s murdering of an animal, he will immediately respond by assuring you that the creature "has no soul," and "is not a Christian." This indicates clearly that, for the devout Christian, only man has a right to live. To the people of the ancient world, religion, which at one time also proceeded according to this pattern that even now springs up in hovels of the people, restrains its standard bearer, and yet it excites him on the other hand, and permits the power of one who threaten the peace of the world to prosper until it has become the terrifying megalomania that considers the bloodiest offenses against life to be permitted, and even commanded, provided such deeds result in "benefits" to humanity. Capitalism, along with its pathfinder, science, is in point of fact the fulfillment of Christianity; the church, like science, constitutes a consortium of special interests; and the "one" that is addressed by a secularized morality is indistinguishable from the life-hostile "ego," which, in the name of the unique godhead of the spirit—only now coupled with a blind cosmology--accounts for the war that has been waged against the innumerable, "many" gods of the world; earlier ages were at least more honest in their opposition to the cosmic deities, for they frankly approached the fray in the menacing aspect of judge."
-- Ludwig Klages

>>21655235
Are you saying my characterization isn’t true or that Abrahamic perspective isn’t true? If it’s the former I’d say go reread Genesis. Christians don’t really ever say that man can live a virtuous life without God, that’s usually seen as something like pride

>>21655252
Oh so he's just a thinker who has hopelessly conflated the acts of self identified Christians with the Bible.

>>21655256
And how does that feed into any of these conclusions. And you've also now conflated living a virtuous life with being inherently good.

>>21655252
So rape, murder, violence, animal and human sacrifice, petty warfare etc. are all aspects of purity and perfection? Or would living like the basest animal be an act of purity?

Most of the world's problems stem from believing "a culture should attempt to better the whole world and have universal ends". This is referred to as "progress" for short.

>>21655252
That is from his essay "Man and Earth", which I recommend reading:

http://www.revilo-oliver.com/Writers/Klages/Man_and_Earth.html

>>21655239
" No teaching can return us to that which has once been lost. Regarding all such attempts, we feel that man simply does not have the ability to bring about a transformation of his inner life on his own. We stated earlier that the ancients never presumed to unravel nature's secrets by means of experiments, and never thought to conquer her through the use of machines, which they dismissed as clever contraptions that were suitable only for slaves; we now insist, moreover, that they abhorred such attempts as ungodliness. Forest and spring, boulder and grotto were for them filled with sacred life; from the summits of their lofty mountains blew the storm-winds of the gods (it was not from lack of a "feeling for nature" that one did not climb their peaks!), and tempest and hailstones threatened or clashed furiously in the play of battle. When the Greeks desired to construct a bridge across a stream, they begged the river deity to pardon this deed of man for which they atoned by offering up to him a sacrificial libation of wine. In ancient German lands, an offense against a living tree was expiated by the shedding of the offender's blood. Today's mankind sees only childish superstition in those who attend to the planetary currents. He forgets that the interpreting of apparitions was a way of scattering blooms around the tree of an inner life, which shelters a deeper knowledge than all of science: the knowledge of the world-weaving power of all-embracing love. Only when this love has been renewed in mankind will the wounds inflicted by the matricidal spirit be healed."
- (Man and Earth essay)

>>21655252
so humans are perfect but should be more in line with nature but also not the nature that involves killing and subjugation

>>21655263
Compassion based on notions of progress is not real compassion.
Compassion asks for nothing in return and seeks nothing.
Trying to change the world to fit your idea of "perfection" in fact leads to the inverse.

>>21655270
This is literally a sentiment in the Bible

>>21655270
And this ideal of perfection is a point in time that would be the ancient times, that came about somehow, but not through progress?

OP if you want some help on this quest against progress I’d strongly recommend you look into Calvinism and English Puritanism as those movements blended a lot of what you’re talking about together. They had a notion of chosenness, a notion of a messianic mission and the need for a radical break from the past (tikkun olam), and they strongly influenced both capitalism and what is now known as social progressivism

>>21655252
How is man at odds with nature if everything we've done follows from us beginning in nature? Unless man was just suddenly put on this Earth as something separate from traditionally understood nature.

This need for some sort of idyllic hobbit 'community' is deeply immoral. An actual healthy community or family is one where each member kind of does their own thing, which almost forces you to leave each other alone because each person is so drawn to different things that interaction would interfere with each members worthy goals instead of following a stunted ruler or an elder. I see it as him basically attacking religion for making each member less dependent on each other, since religion has always historically been the action of internal cultivation (prayer in secret as key doctrine)

>>21655341
What the hell are you talking about? Every reference in your post was incorrect

>>21655341
No. It was better when there was not so much freedom. There were no transsexuals.

>>21654861
>>21654998
Neither of them were prophets.

>>21655223
he's not misrepresenting klages

>>21656727
But Ludwig Derleth was.

>>21657117
nah, Stefan George · der Meister!

>>21654861
I would wager whatever progress comes it should be weaponized by those on the right side of history

> No one would expect back then that a man was fit to serve his countrymen if he wasn’t provided in turn with basic needs however in today’s society its considered impolite, even verboten to think that men should be provided such necessities because “women are wonderful” I guess. and since we have come to that crossroads, The reason I decided upon this framework was a sort of Hegelian synthesis based on what is currently in vogue and what could be, hence I get the idea that its important for this contract to exist if and when a man is given something back for his loyalty, unfortunately its more of a matter of genetic fitness that these men are being selected against rather than for than the provisions being in place for him acquire such properties, being that women now have freedom of choice in the matter of pair bonding whereas in history they did not have such a choice, so adaptation must be necessary, much in the fashion that classical Fascism took its form, from adopting the revolutionary materialist springboard into an aesthetic appropriation of all things religious and ancient. If its happened before, it will happen again. Mark my words.

>>21658668
have sex chud, Klages was a hetaerist-feminist worshipper of the Mother Goddess

>>21659066
Hey now, that's not fair, just because he read Bachofen seriously doesn't make him a feminist.

.

>>21660987
chuddicore 2 the maxx
got me vibin' good good rn fr

"What is printed in the morning editions of the big city newspapers is the opinion of nine out of ten readers by nightfall. The United States of America, whose more rapid “progress” enables us to predict the future on a daily basis, has pulled far ahead of the pack when it comes to standardizing thought, work, entertainment, etc. " -Klages

he said this almost 100 years ago. if only he could see us today...

"Whereas the Americans thought that they were fighting for such high-minded slogans as "liberty" and "justice," they were actually fighting to stuff the money bags of the big bankers. These "free citizens" are, in fact, mere marionettes; their freedom is imaginary, and a brief glance at American work-methods and leisure-time entertainments is enough to prove conclusively that l’homme machine is not merely imminent: it is already the American reality."