/lit/ - Literature

>>21640608
>What makes an epic poem?
The action, the subject, heroic deeds. Or at least that used to be the definition before these things died and now people consider Song of Myself an epic poem.
>Is the epic divisible from the long poem,
See, it used to be that the subject made epic poems, but now if Song of Myself is an epic, then probably any long poem will be considered epic.
> and could a short poem be epic?
No, the length is part of the epicness (epic proportions for epic subjects). But like I said, modernism rejects all definitions and wants words to mean nothing, so sure, you may see people write some garbage postmodernist short poem and call it an epic, and all the left-wing journalists will push that onto society.
>What are your favorites?
Iliad first and Odyssey second.
>What are some epics from around world history which deserve more discussion?
I like Song of Roland more than other more famous epics.
>Why are the Iliad, the Odyssey, the Divine Comedy, and Paradise Lost the crowning achievements in the genre?
Iliad and Odyssey because they're very good. Divine Comedy because it's the defining literary work of the European middle ages. Paradise Lost is *not* a crowning achievement, it's pushed by Anglos to be so. Aeneid is better than Paradise Lost, but you didn't mention that.

Overall, I really like epics. Their ability to define civilizations is some of the most impressive achievements literature has ever brought to our world. That Western literature starts with Iliad, the best work ever written, has to be some sorts of divine intervention in our world. It makes our world more beautiful.

>>21640608
> Odyssey, the Divine Comedy, and Paradise Lost
Nope, those were personal epics

>>21640662
>Iliad first and Odyssey second.
Boring.

>>21640670
Elaborate. You said this in the last thread, but I don't understand how a personal epic is disqualified from being an epic. Besides, I don't see how Paradise Lost could be argued as a "personal" epic when there are five different main characters.

An epic poem always has to indulge on lengthy lists of things such as lists of rivers, mountains, heroes, gods, nymphs or whatever. If it doesn’t have lists then it’s not an epic poem.

>>21640799
Pleb

>>21640998
Adding to this, would you consider GR or Finnegans Wake an epic? I find that another quality of epic poems is that it doesn’t exactly linear like a novel because maybe the plot isn’t so defined.

>>21641002
>picks what is literally baby's first epic poem which was composed specifically for the entertainment of common people and calls others plebian.

Is the Rime of the Ancient Mariner an epic poem? I think it could go either way

>>21641547
I think you could make the argument that it is an epic. And that would challenge the idea of how long a poem needs to be to achieve that stature, as The Rime is only 625 lines long, which is shorter than just one book of Paradise Lost.

>>21641485
Midwit

Discuss my favourite book

>>21640608
The best poetry is the one that talks truth, therefore its the Holy Quran, with the Bible as a second contender. The Holy Quran is literaly the words of God, the Creator of the world, in the most poetic language, arabic. When prophet Muhammad peace be upon him revealed the verses, the arabic poets converted to islam because themselfs acknowledged the superiority of the Quran in poetic beauty terms.

Arabic its the ultimate poetic lenguage because, as hebrew, comes from Abraham, but its preserved and still alive. English cannot be the best one because its a lenguage based on germanic created by pirates for simplistic purposes. Germanic cannot because comes from the indo-iranian bacin, out from the house of Abraham and therefore the blessing of God.

Arabic its in a perfect state, and dont deals with the tricks of the Devil such as sophistry (Greek signature) or useless complications. For saying fish we say hut for saying whale we say hut. Because we give impirtance to the context.

26:224
And the poets - [only] the deviators follow them;
26:225
Do you not see that in every valley they roam
26:226
And that they say what they do not do? -
26:227
Except those [poets] who believe and do righteous deeds and remember Allah often and defend [the Muslims] after they were wronged. And those who have wronged are going to know to what [kind of] return they will be returned.

In just few Words (Logos) Allah destroyed the entire mankind corpus of literature, poetry and arts. Look at how beautiful of a dissing its.

The only writer worthy of glory for me is Poe

>>21641851
>muzzies are the poe spammers
It all makes sense now

>>21641711
that''s my favorite book too, anon

>>21641485
Rightfully so. You're a philistine.

>>21640968
He's making fun, ignore him.
>>21640662
>Aeneid is better than Paradise Lost, but you didn't mention that.
I have yet to see a single human being who holds this opinion actually express why. Retards cant read a word of Latin and want to brag about the Aeneid, embarrassing.
>>21640608
>Why are the Iliad, the Odyssey, the Divine Comedy, and Paradise Lost the crowning achievements in the genre?
I think you meant "The Cantos" but its a common mistake.

>>21640670
There was one thread about this months ago, and this one assblasted schizo has never stopped parroting the replies, its almost impressive.

>>21642693
Rewrite that post in Latin.

>>21641711
How is that?

>>21642703
>assblasted
The only assblasted schizo was you, retard, for needing to invent a fictive professor to “substantiate” your retardation.

>the best medieval epic (not counting Commedia, which was already approaching renaissance anyway and wasn't a traditional epic)
>did free verse before it was cool
>is both pagan and christian
>Russians and Ukrainians are together, as they should be, brothers fighting against eastern hordes
>short, can be read in an afternoon
Why haven't you read Tale of Igor's Campaign yet?

>>21644982
also
>so good that foreigners couldn't believe and created a theory that it's a forgery

>>21644982
also
>so good that foreigners couldn't believe it and created a theory that it's a forgery

>>21643917
Not him but when it comes to reading and writing in ancient languages you're talking about two different beasts. It's not hard to read Homer after 6 months of rigorous grammar practice but I'd be impressed if someone with 3 years of Greek studies was able to compose in homeric dialect with ease.

>>21645225
>yea dude i 100% can read virgil but i can't read a basic post
Stop posting retard, you're out of your depth with your child examples about homeric greek

>>21645231
>read a basic post
write*

>>21643917
I cant, because I can't read write or speak a word of Latin, but I'm also not the guy making the claim that the poem is better in translation than an english one I can read. Even not being able to read latin you can still look at the copied similes and lifted unoriginal language from Homer, and the boring and tedious character interactions.

>>21644779
Lol dude I'm NTA I just remember the thread, it was about what the true american epic was or whatever. The only reason I remember it is because you blew up and you've been posting "its a personal epic" everywhere, which makes me think you are in fact an assblasted schizo. The other reason I remember it was because you said "the passages" as a possible contender and I think its quite amusing, now that I've read a couple of them.

>>21645231
φῆνον ὅτι σύ τὴν γλῶσσαν Ἑλληνικῆς γιγνώσκεις

>>21645271
>i can't read latin but i know milton is better
>NOOOO YOU CANT SAY VIRGIL IS BETTER IF YOU DONT KNOW LATIN
Kill yourself dipshit

>>21645324
Please quote where I said Milton is better.

>>21645324
holy shit its you again. still mad at latin after getting filtered by a beginners textbook? /clg/ has been so much better after you and that esperanto tranny left.
also, respond to >>21645296

>>21645296
Why can I never look up these words on dictionaries like Perseus? Does the copy and paste not work?
t. greeklet

>>21645339
So you don't think Milton is better, correct? Yet you were attacking someone who thought Virgil was better because he couldn't Latin, right? Then flesh out your position consistent with these: are you saying all people must adopt your cuck neutral position unless they read the originals?

>>21645359
not sure if Perseus has the automatic detection of conjugated forms, use Logeion for that
https://logeion.uchicago.edu/morpho/%CF%86%E1%BF%86%CE%BD%CE%BF%CE%BD

>>21645359
you'd have to know the root i suppose.
i use wiktionary and logeion.

>>21645363
You are one retarded loser.
>Yet you were attacking someone who thought Virgil was better because he couldn't Latin, right?
If you cannot read the poem in the original language but claim its better, then you should have a good response as to why you think that. If you think Virgil is better than Milton, explain why.

>>21645377
>>21645381
Huge thank you, that's very useful. I wish my uni had greek classes, but I'm stuck trying to learn on my own

>>21645393
And if you read it in the original language you don't need a good reason? You're an idiot, you only brought that up to feel smart yet you cannot string a coherent thought when asked about it. You're the definition of a pseud.

>>21645293
Yeah, you’re a retard who has no idea what “blew up” means since your meme-language brainrot is incapable of understanding anything remotely outside twatter-speak.
>read a couple
Thanks for proving your retardation. Read all of them, bud.

>>21645407
So what I'm getting from your very funny posts is that you don't have a particular reason why Virgil is better, and you can't read latin... and you want me to continue to elaborate?

Ill wait until you post why you think the Aeneid is better

>>21645434
Show me where I said Virgil is better.

>>21645420
>Yeah, you’re a retard who has no idea what “blew up” means since your meme-language brainrot is incapable of understanding anything remotely outside twatter-speak.
it ain't twitter speak homedog. It's been used colloquially since I was a child.
>>21645420
>Thanks for proving your retardation. Read all of them, bud.
Its rather long. I have a copy of "The H.D Book" from a library I'm going through though, and while I think its stunningly good idk how you could possibly think its an american epic, but that's not the purpose of the thread so whatever.

Keep on "aktually its a personal epic hehehe"'ing your way through lit I suppose

>>21645445
Yeah right here: >>21640662, if you aren't this anon then you're just as retarded as him and are hiding your actual opinions, making you a worthless specimen of a man.

>>21640662
why the book of mormon?

>>21645467
>hiding your actual opinions
My opinion is clear: that you're a pseud for all the reasons listed above. I don't need to have an opinion on Aeneid vs Paradise Lost to call out a pseud.

>>21645467
NTA but aren't you the one "hiding your actual opinions"? Cf >>21645339

>>21645486
>>21645475
>>21645467
>>21645454
>>21645445
>>21645434
>>21645420
>>21645407
>>21645393
>>21645363
>>21645345
>>21645339
>>21645324
>>21645293
>>21645271
>>21645231
>>21645225
>>21643917
>>21642693
In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, shut the fuck up, you faggots

>>21645475
>>21645486
NTA (pic rel) but how can you possibly call a work better in a language you cant read, when so much is lost in translation for how "pretty" the words are? I mean you can say the narrative is better, because the translation doesn't really lose that but Virgil lifted entire similes and passages directly from homer (like Aeneas' armor), so I don't think he's that good for those reasons.

>>21645544
>NTA
>uses the exact same argument about "lifting entire similes" as the "other anon"
You went from pseud to cringe really quickly

>>21645454
The problem the retard (and especially you, too) in challenging the idea of an American Epic in asking who the “us” is, is stupid. For modern and contemporary poets, there is no uncontestable heavenly muse and no “tribe” that can be taken for granted like the bygone Epics. In The Tale of the Tribe: Ezra Pound and the Modern Verse Epic, Michael André Bernstein articulated this problem in his study of Pound, William Carlos Williams, and Charles Olson: “the essential paradox of a modern verse epic,” he says, is that “a text that can be only the response of a particular individual writing from his own, partial and limited perspective […] must nonetheless give voice to historical forces transcending any single consciousness or moment” (Bernstein 272). In Bending the Bow (where most of the Passages are contained), Robert Duncan writes
>If the soul is the life-shape of the body, great stars, that are born and have their histories we read in the skies and will die, are souls. And this poetry, the ever forming of bodies in language in which breath moves, is a field of ensouling. Each line, intensely, a soul thing, a contribution; a locality of the living.
The passage illustrates Duncan's views on poetry and ethics. Duncan saw poetry and the body as interconnected, with the poem and the body both being sites of ethical responsibility during times of war. This responsibility goes beyond simple condemnation and instead involves a connection with the entire universe, which would bring all people together regardless of their political beliefs. This idea of interconnectedness is similar to the views of other poets, such as Charles Olson's proprioception and Louis Zukofsky's desire for totality.
Duncan disagrees with the idea that the universe is limited and fixed. Instead, he says in “The Multiversity, Passages 21,” that it's made up of different parts that fit together but don't lock, meaning that what was previously closed can now be opened: “The part in its fitting does not lock but unlocks; what was closed is opened” (iv). He believes that by going beyond what's expected, poetry can help heal people and bring love to those who are hurt:
>But I have only the language of our commonness, alive with them as well as me, the speech of the audience in its refusal in which I would come into that confidence. The poem in which my heart beats speaks like to unlike, kind to unkind. The line of the poem itself confronts me where I must volunteer my love, and I saw, long before this war, wrath move in the music that troubles me. (iii)
In Duncan's poetry, the heart isn't just a figure of speech. He believes that by breaking out of the boundaries of the body through poetry, we can form a loving connection with all of humanity. This is the question that his work asks us to think about and why his Passages (which you have not read) reflect an Epic.

>>21645555
Yeah I'm repeating him because I agree

>>21645607
You're a buffoon

>>21645611
NTA but what's wrong with sucking cocks and taking HRT?

>>21645591
>is that “a text that can be only the response of a particular individual writing from his own, partial and limited perspective […] must nonetheless give voice to historical forces transcending any single consciousness or moment”
So a personal epic lol

Anyway I don't know why you're typing all that out (its a good write up don't get me wrong but I wasn't arguing with you), I have a copy of bending the bow which I got with the H.D book and its fantastic, but its an extremely personal work that features heavy references to mysticism and all that jazz, and I don't see it as quintessentially American. To each their own, thanks for introducing it to me at least.

>>21645591
holy shit, someone on /lit/ actually knows who Olson and Zukofsky are

>>21645611
Explain how I'm wrong for agreeing with him then?

NTA

>>21645544
NTA but Homer also lifted most of his story and style down to the vocabulary and phraseology from the older poets of his tradition. To treat an ancient, especially oral singer as remotely original according to modern standards is ridiculous.
Vergil did develop and refine Homer when paraphrasing him. Vergil's style is significantly more compact, a consequence of being fully adapted to writing rather than singing, which makes his style more palatable to modern readers as well (disregarding the translations of Homer that pretty him up, such as Pope's and Fitzgerald's), and his philosophy is more refined (compare Vergil's underworld to Homer's as the starkest example). All the standard examples of Vergil being overly reliant on Homer have to be decontextualised and simplified to actually work as criticism of Vergil. You provide a great one yourself. The extensive description of a shield is indeed indebted to Homer, but was clearly a popular trope in ancient poetry generally (see Hesiod's Shield of Heracles), and its actual substance in the Aeneid is in fact vastly different from Homer's.
Not to mention that Milton's style was heavily influenced by Vergil as well. https://www.jstor.org/stable/3293318
If you measured a poet's worth by the number of his paraphrases (which were in the past seen as a positive thing, a sign of learnedness and awareness of your tradition, not as a negative), Shakespeare would end up one of the worst dramatists of his age.

>>21645722
I didn't mean his shield, but the descriptor that's given when he goes into battle "and he shone like Sirius blazing across the battlefield" or something.

Thank you for the explanation.

>>21645722
>his philosophy is more refined (compare Vergil's underworld to Homer's as the starkest example).
Lol what do you mean? Because he had some retarded souls get reborn story to insert Augustus that means his philosophy is more refined? You're clearly philosophically illiterate and were filtered by Homer, so why don't you stick to stylistic points and other superficialities?

>>21645231
so are you going to respond to >>21645296 ???
>you're out of your depth
lmao

>>21641485
Still pleb

>>21641711
Tasso is better, still pretty solid choice

>>21641485
>No! It can't be the best! Too many people like it!
You must be at least 18 to post on /lit/

>>21640608
My favorite epic poem is "The Faerie Queene" by Edmund Spencer and I have only read the first 2 parts. After that I was so moved that I felt like I needed to stop and get a better background in arthurian and christian myth before continuing. So as to enjoy the richness of the poetry more fully in its proper context. Before that I never bought into the "read x before y" meme. Highly recommended. Its too bad he never finished it.

>>21646448
>christian myth

>>21646459
I include things like the apocrypha, the comedy and things like that. Sorry if I insulted your sensibilities with just two words. Cunt.

>>21646516
>apocrypha is myth

>>21640608
>>21640662
Is Faust not an epic?

>>21647206
Its not an epic poem. At least certainly no more than Shakespeares Henriad is. Epic play maybe.

>>21646448
>Before that I never bought into the "read x before y" meme
honestly it's just as enlightening when you read a book's antecedents after the book itself in my experience.

>>21647450
I agree, even though I stopped to get the background stuff, but really I could have read the whole thing, then read the other stuff and then read it again with minimal difference in the experience. It does seem like people that strictly stick to that view are naturally against rereading books. But then again some books can be quite tricky without reading what came before (though I would attribute that to bad writing). I just felt like I was doing the poem a disservice by not having even trying the reference stuff beforehand.

Can’t believe those mfs fought a ten-year war over this. Could find in a typical Walmart those days.

>>21647665
Helen being red haired is entirely a medieval thing. Her hair is never described in the text iirc.

>>21640608
>What makes an epic poem
A narrative in verses that encapsulates the ideas and ideals of an entire society.
>Is the epic divisible from the long poem, and could a short poem be epic?
Yes and no. An epic needs to be lengthy because it is a narrative of multiple spiraling themes.
>What are your favorites?
The illiad.
What are some epics from around world history which deserve more discussion?
Imvenção do Mar: Carmen Saeculare, by Gerardo Mello Mourão. Probably the greatest work of modernist literature of the later half of the 20th century.
>Why are the Iliad, the Odyssey, the Divine Comedy, and Paradise Lost the crowning achievements in the genre?
Well, they aren't. I mean, The Illiad and the Odyssey are the best ones, that's undisputed. But the Divine Comedy doesn't even fit the epic genre, or maybe it does just as it fits the dramatic and lyric genres at the same capacity. And Paradise Lost is very overrated, because it the only half-decent epic english produced, but it's not even worth mentioning in the discussion. The crowning achievements are The Illiad and The Odyssey (obviously), the Enead, the Divine Comedy if you consider it an epic and maybe The Cantos and the aforementioned Invenção do Mar.

P.s. one thing worth mentioning is that epics differ from epopeae (epic poetry). Novels can also be epics. But epopeae are a very specific genre of classical greek poetry, meant to be sung by aoidos.

>>21647206
as a poetic achievement it is certainly at the level of Milton and Dante but if you had actually read it you'd know it's a play.

have a bump

bump

>>21647993
bump for Gerardo Mello Mourão
Why is his stuff so hard to find?

I'm looking for a cantar de mio cid in the original old Spanish

>>21640662
>Or at least that used to be the definition before these things died and now people consider Song of Myself an epic poem.
and thats a good thing. The whole Modernist epic project fits in the timeline from preliterate oral epics to the modern day. It plays off the same scale and deals with the same themes, only the subject and aspects of the form have changed. The Odyssey, the Aeneid, the Classics have a play between intimacy and historical action.

>>21644982
>>21644982
its okay. Its short and not very inspiring. But I've read much worse. You guys are really sleeping on the Caucuses though. Pic related are the three best epics Ive ever read

>Aniara (Swedish: Aniara : en revy om människan i tid och rum[3]) is a book-length epic science fiction poem written by Swedish Nobel laureate Harry Martinson from 1953 to 1956. It narrates the tragedy of a large passenger spacecraft carrying a cargo of colonists escaping destruction on Earth veering off course, leaving the Solar System and entering into an existential struggle. The style is symbolic, sweeping and innovative for its time, with creative use of neologisms to suggest the science fictional setting. It was published in its final form on 13 October 1956.

>>21647993
>The crowning achievements are The Illiad and The Odyssey (obviously), the Enead, the Divine Comedy if you consider it an epic and maybe The Cantos and the aforementioned Invenção do Mar.
The Enead? What is that? Do you mean Plotinus? Those aren't poems. I would also argue that The Cantos is not an epic.

>>21653376
gem

I've only read heaney's translation, but my sister told me about maria headley's. It intrigues me. Put off though because everything I read online calls it feminist. Anyone here read it? Or knows enough about beowulf/old english to comment on the translation decisions?

>>21653813
Her translation is more artistic than it is literal, (as is the case with many Beowulf translations, including Heaney's). It has been referred to as a "feminist" translation, but this is not because Headley has injected some foreign ideology into the work, but her translation puts a different emphasis on Grendel's mother which highlights her role as a mother, which makes her attempt at revenge more sympathetic. Headley's translation presents Grendel's mother more sympathetically in the same way that the Romantics presented readings of Milton's Satan, where there was still an acknowledgement that the character is monstrous and a great villain, but also considers the tragedy that surrounds them, which is one which even humans can feel for.

How do I pull myself through epic poems? Really need to study and understand Paradise Lost and some other works. My dopamine and time management are pretty messed up and I'm usually just listening to audiobooks.

>>21655307
if you dont enjoy reading as an activity why are you doing it? Its like its any more virtuous or worthwhile than like playing in a rec league or cooking. People read these books because they like to read and these are some of the best for it, not because of some knowledge they might gain or secrets hidden within

>>21653529
I meant the Aeneid. And I meant Epopoeia. Can't write greek for shit.

only unfortunate thing is kazantzakis died before writing his next epic poem

>>21655999
Checked, but I must explain. Those works contain most wonderful stories. The style is hard to comprehend and I simply don't agree with it. I don't want it to be hard. I want to have knowledge of the genre and get inspired for my own writing, even if I don't write poetry.

>>21656451
>literally spent an entire thread crying about wanting a sequel to the Trojan cycle
>Anon posts this
Absolutely amazing.
I desperately wish I knew Greek (and Latin for Aeneid)

>>21654648
Excellent post! What translations do you like in particular?

>>21656565
>I want to have knowledge...
>I don't want it to be hard
At any level above status quo of shit people know, difficulty is the barrier to entry. So you kind of have to pick one, do you want to know easy to apprehend that everyone knows or do you want to struggle to the more novel knowledge? That being said I don't remember paradise lost being too terribly difficult. I think I saw someone refer to it here as "boring poetry" not because it is difficult bit because it is relatively straight forward for poetry. I feel the same way about Fagels translations of The Iliad and Odyssey.
As far as advice goes just learn to go with the flow a bit. Coming at it with analysis off the bat will diminish the effect of the experience which in my opinion is a major part of any poem but definitely longer poems. Just let the words go in your mind line by line without worrying about apprehending it totally, while keeping an eye out for parts that move you. Those are the important sections you can come back to later to see of you can grasp why they effected you. Something that helps with this some times is reading aloud (unless you are stuttering through most of it then just get the voice in your head to do it).

>>21656451
Well you have not read your pic related, so who cares?

>>21657414
the fact that your attention span has been ruined by social media doesnt mean nobody can read a longer epic.

>>21657414
Post your copy then, fag

>>21658436
Meant for >>21658415
Also stop projecting, >>21658415

>>21658436

>>21658629
>ebook
Kek

>>21658639
>carrying heavy books around with you everywhere

>>21658769
>heavy
>t.dyel
Topkek

>>21640662
>Scotland
>Ossian

>>21640662
This is a shite list

I started writing an epic about Apep and it has gradually begun to consume my life.