/lit/ - Literature

yeah but we still need to regulate wall street and tax the rich

you know the rich are paying historically low taxes and the schism in the distribution of wealth has grown massive since the early 80s

but these fucking faggots occupying wall street have SILLY COSTUMES and iPHONES so lets celebrate how tough we are for enduring the system as it is instead of trying to make it any better

it used to be the american dream was if you put in a 40 hour work week until you were 65 you could have a decent home, a car, be able to feed your family and put your kids through college

but no in the richest country in the world the middle and lower class have had toiling in silence turned into a virtue and instead of getting mad at the people who have taken the social contract away from them they furiously defend them against the LAZY SHITS who don't want to work 3 jobs just to experience a little upward mobility

>>2163084
brand this on the forehead of every i-banker

>>2163084
>kids with part time jobs walking around with iphones
>the rich is screwing us over
HUEHUEHUEHUEHUE

>>2163093
nuanced political-economic analysis here

cheap luxury goods make a poor substitute for economic security. i don't know how much an iphone costs, but in general, the number of people who have an x-box or an iphone or a big-screen tv is not a good indicator of economic security and upwards mobility. i'll be the first one in the 'limit consumer spending on bullshit luxury goods' line, but it doesn't mean that everything is hunky-dory.

>>2163059
My cousin wrote one of these for that blog (the anti-occupy one) and foolishly linked it on her facebook. It was so full of shit, talking about how she would never be so foolish as to build debt going to college when I know for a fact her mom (who isn't wealthy at all, shes definitely one of those ridiculously hard working poor people who puts in 80 hour weeks) has been paying for her schooling for all 5 years and the girl hasn't even picked a major yet.

Even if you totally told the truth and really did work ridiculously hard and suffer and shit why the hell would you WANT it to be that way when our own past and other less-wealthy nations currently show it's completely unnecessary? I don't get it, is it Stockholm or what?

i'm so proud of working my ass off and having a crappy life

>>2163093
you have a refrigerator, you cant be poor!

>>2163103
it's cultural, i think. it's basically personal/social dislike of the people who are protesting.

>I WORKED HARD AND EVERYTHING WAS AWESOME WHY CAN'T YOU WORK HARD YOU MUST BE LAZY

People have been saying this shit since the goddamn Victorian age. Fucking little Bounderbies, all of you.

>>2163059

>That's how it's supposed to work

it's mind-boggling that they have a college education and yet have apparently at no point questioned anything

In society as it's present enequatible organization, it the 1% that rely on the 99% not the other way around. Most high paying jobs set up by the education industry are being streamlines by technology or demimished by more access to knowledge via the web. Other highpaying jobs are organized financial, and social oligarchies.

>>2163109

Most college degrees don't actually encourage you to think. It's only degrees like English, art, and philosophy that do that.

OP's pic is not factually possible in today's economy. See this article:

http://persephonemagazine.com/2011/10/dont-even-get-me-started-mythical-bootstraps-college-student/

Bullshitters gonna bullshit.

>>2163059
>@$$

>>2163116
I think you're trolling, but it has been shown that the more useless degrees in the liberal arts actually do have students with more critical thinking skills than the more pragmatic and hard science degrees

of course critical thinking skills don't really correlate with happiness or success so its not like that's a massive complement

>2011
>people actually believe you're supposed to work 40+ hours per week and yes it sucks but if you complain you're lazy

a large part of what makes work "hard" is the fact that it sucks and you hate doing it and you are miserable while doing it. none of these international plutocrats work "hard", and if you think that your "hard" work makes you a decent person or that it will pay off in the end, you are #2 on the list of Large Groups of People Who Have Been MASSIVELY Trolled Over The Ages, second only to the religious

>>2163119
god bless this article

this country is so insane

Why do these people think it's about the ability to afford x, upward mobility, economic security, any of that?

When it's so obviously about agency, political process, and what kind of culture we want to have? That girl will work her whole life, live comfortably, and never make a decision entirely her own. Not even what label she attaches to herself or how she embarrasses herself. And she just doesn't get it.

>>2163130
Especially since the people who work the hardest--backbreaking work every day--get paid in peanuts.

It's the people who do the less "work" that make the most money.

>>2163119
How is it not possible? I have a full time job that pays a little above minimum wage, pay for a car, pay my rent, bought my gaming laptop and all the books I want, still able to save money afterwards. Eat out whenever I feel like it.

OP lives on necessities, works 30hour job, and has scholarships for school. How is it not possible?

>>2163137

wall street jobs are infamous for their work hours

investment bankers regularly work 20 hour days

you are bitter, jealous, and wrong

>>2163141
did you read the article that answers that question. college is expensive, homes. break down your entire budget itt if you want to prove the article wrong.

>>2163135
man like. the two are linked, you know? and economic security / stability is a great way to point out what is going on + pretty important in its own right

>everyone here thinks the more money you have, the less you must be working
>they judging this based on children who have rich parents
So, because I see your kid sitting around most of the day playing video games, this must mean the entire family just sits around doing nothing all day besides rubbing their face in money
>this is what occupy wallstreet believes

>>2163141
read the article duder

getting a "full ride" on scholarships isnt a real thing, at least I never knew anyone in undergrad who could do it, we all had to rely on loans either from banks or from our parents

>>2163144

>investment bankers regularly work 20 hour days

A simple google search reveals that it's actually about half that. So yeah.

>>2163149
He has scholarship that pay for most of his school.......

So his only living expense is food, rent, whatever little bathroom utensils, etc
>implying it's impossible to pay rent with a 30hour minimum wage job

>>2163144
do you honestly believe the rich work harder than the poor, please respond honestly

>>2163159
read the article read the article read the article read the article

>>2163161
Different poster, I own a private business I built up by myself.

I do make more money than my employees

I also work 60+ hours a week

Welcome to the reason why I'm more well off than you

>>2163144
>basing your data on "infamous" stereotypes
>2011

I seriously hope you don't do things like that anymore.

>>2163161

yes, the rich work incredibly hard, ridiculous hours

the poor on the other hand work 40 hour weeks, fucking union hours. lazy do-nothings

>>2163165
I don't need to, please explain to me why a person cannot afford living expenses off a 30 hour job

Especially if I can do the same with a 40hour job, along with paying for car rent, video games, books, fast food, etc etc etc

>>2163159
see >>2163154
and actually read the article in >>2163119
and stop falling for everything you see in a picture on the Internet.

>>2163167

Yeah, sure is hard work telling your slaves that they're not working fast enough. How do you manage that for 60 hours a week?

I love that the argument that college is affordable relies on scholarships. College is perfectly affordable as long as you have public money!

hey guys, I heard a joke the other day, went something like this:

"A CEO, Tea Partier, and a Union Worker walk into a donut shop, they order a dozen donuts. The CEO grabs 11 of the donuts then turns to the Tea Partier and tells him that the Union Worker wants half of his donut."

captcha: sheep" wikehe

>>2163172
it's explained in the article moron, i just fucking read it even though it's tl;dr but you can't argue with the math in it

>>2163174
Ah, the common response from occupy wallstreet kids who know nothing about the people who PROVIDE JOBS

Well, cry all you want, this is how life has been and will always be. Those who work harder will go further in life. You can occupy wallstreet, revolt, replace the government, and in the end you'll be left with working hard to move forward.

Doctors do nothing but sit around all day, correct? Or Steve Jobs, he just hired people to think and study for him.

>>2163182
>Or Steve Jobs, he just hired people to think and study for him.

yeah like woz

>>2163182
please someone recognize this is a troll post and stop responding

his rhetoric is too ridiculous to be believed

>>2163108
Yeah, because it's true

>>2163154
>mfw i had a full ride
granted, i was one of fewer than 200 total students with a full ride (counting enrollees in all class levels) at a school of a little over 20,000 undergraduates.

>>2163185
Like I said, it doesn't really matter what fantasy you wish to hold. I learned the value of hard work, and as such I've profited. Go ahead, revolt and remove the government because you feel all the money in the world is being unfairly hidden away from you. That certainly worked with Communist China, the USSR, Cuba, etc etc etc

I can go to bed with a smile on my face because I know I worked for my place in life.

>>2163194
what kind of scholarship was it? I honestly never met anybody on a full ride in my entire 3 years at school, and I was in an honors English program with a future olympic athelete.

>>2163149
Well, yeah, that's part of how the issue gets confused.

The way I've kind of unpacked the implications to people has been to say something like "the problem is that money/capital/concentrated wealth has hijacked our political system and our culture, and gives its owners massive power over other individuals' lives ."

Or, if I think they're receptive and won't brand me a dirty socialist right away, to break down the word "capitalism:" the ideology of capital, a worldview centered around capital, that puts capital as the first value. You can even get some mileage with the unlikeliest people when you point out that, e.g. sexed up clothes for preadolescents only exist because they make people money and that's what matters in our culture.

But wealth itself isn't the issue- Bill Gates could sit in his multi-hundred-million-dollar-mansion all he wants and it wouldn't matter if everyone had the material resources they need to develop themselves, and if money didn't direct lives and culture in a negative direction like it did. To say it's about money without qualifying that opens you up to dumb accounting arguments, blathering about irrelevant tax policies, and directions to shower. You say it's about power and agency and culture and even the deluded start to listen.

>>2163167

How much do you make? Chances are you're part of the 99%. People don't like hearing this, but most people who work on Wall Street are, technically, part of the 99%. That's how stratified things have gotten, how out of sight the people who really run the world are.

>>2163202
I didn't mean to come off like I was bragging here, sorry. I was just trying to say I knew a lot of overachieving types and none of them had anywhere near their entire way paid.

>>2163202

my brother got a full ride, he was second in his class in highschool

It has been my distinct impression that the Occupy Wall Street movement has some legitimate grievances (insofar as the notion of legitimate grievance can be taken seriously in the context of modern society), and that it represents not simply welfare queens, hipsters and the willfully unemployed, but a variety of interest groups, underpaid individuals and political activists.

It has likewise been my impression that any such movement is an exercise in futility so long as it fails to provide a consistent desire or agenda which it may accomplish by mass action. Most displeasing of all, I have on a variety of occasions heard that, should the Occupy Wall Street movements develop any such coherent legislative purpose, it would be immediately and summarily dismissed, though whether by the major news media, Congress, or its own conflicting interests has been a point of contention.

Has this been your understanding as well? Or are we going to continue this thread with nothing but invective as usual.

>>2163208
okay so what kind of scholarship was it? I don't mean to press as if I don't believe you, but I've never heard from someone who actually got one before.

>>2163203
Basically, I mean- people are not out in the streets out of envy, because they can't afford a Mercedes, because whatever material reason. They're out because they want to direct their own lives, to live in a society where money is not the highest value, where people aren't set against each other in fear.

Certain material changes are necessary, and more are desirable, to get there, but the material is not the motivation. It's not the point. People who haven't been fortunate enough to get the ideas behind this aren't going to get it if you present it in terms that can be written off as the envy of the lazy.

>>2163213
the amount of contempt and scrutiny leveled at the occupy wall street movement in popular media versus the way the tea party was treated (as immediately legitimate, despite gaining traction as an anti-obama movement literally before obama had done anything) makes me think they're not going to accomplish anything.

It shouldn't cost $40K a year to get a great education. I was accepted into Caltech, one of the best engineering and science universities in the country. I didn't want to pass up on that opportunity because nobody in my family had ever graduated from college, let alone a college like Caltech, so I was forced to take out $80K in student loans.

>>2163216

it was the full-ride kind of scholarship

>>2163141

[1/2]

I am a US army soldier, I live in the barracks and pay no rent or utilities, and my meals are taken out of the check before I even see it, so let's see what I have left

>private first class
>make roughly $1400 per month, well above minimum wage in all states
>car payment: $250
>insurance: $140
>phone and internet: $115 (and don't give me some bullshit about how the internet is a luxury, the internet is an absolutely necessity for most jobs, there are many tasks that would make my job impossible without the internet because many army resources and required training programs are online)
>gas: $80
>personal hygiene etc.: $20
>total cost: $605

that would leave me roughly $800 left, which is usually what I have (but that goes to braces, investments, etc. which not everybody has so I didn't include it)

(cont.)

>>2163230

[2/2]

if I was a civilian I would be fucked, how in the hell would I pay for

>rent
>utilities
>food
>college

with 800?! and that's not even including if you have dependents. AND I have a relatively low car payment+insurance, AND most people on minimum wage don't even make as much as I do, so in reality they would have $300 left before to after my first list of expenses (I made about $900 per month working 40 hour weeks at Wendy's)

I'm not the guy you're replying to but this "independent college kid" shit blows my mind, this is in no way feasible for 99% of the population

hence welfare etc., so all the fat cats paying people $7.25 an hour and then wondering why so many people are on welfare need to realize that the rich are the ones making welfare a necessity in this country

honestly, the only reason I'm a fucking soldier is for the money, you think I risk getting blown up by derkas because I care about "liberty and justice"? lol no, and at the end of the day the only way to morally justify my service is "yeah, the US is pretty shitty, but just about everywhere else is even worse, so I guess my significantly-less-terrible-but-still-not-good piece of land is worth defending"

inb4 soldiers don't protect shit, people who don't understand why air defense artillery is the only thing saving them from nuclear annihilation, etc.

>>2163227
right, but who gave it to him? on what merit? what was it called?

>>2163236

the school gave it to him? and because he had good grade I guess, because he wasn't doing anything extracurricular I don't think, and no idea what it was called

>>2163202
scholarships issued by the flagship public university of a U.S. state -- 20 to in-state students, 20 to out-of-state students. it helps that my state consistently ranks at 48th or lower in education, while the high school i attended ranks fairly high among the nation's public high schools.

>>2163223
I would argue that, from the time that it first was popularly presented in the news, the Tea Party was seen by most as extremist and many as insane. Keep in mind, please, that I live in the state that elected Nikki Haley governor. It still boggles my mind that that happened. I do run in fairly liberal circles, but I'm connected enough with ordinary people, and very few were actively interested in them. Perhaps they were the only ones to vote?

I certainly agree that, while coverage varied between aggressively for and against the Tea Party, it was done in a different way than coverage of the Occupy Wall Street rallies. I attributed this to the lack of central leadership, but perhaps it is a result of the corporate nature of news media. There has been less overall coverage, and more universally confused or negative coverage, at least in my perception.

If you believe that the major media response spells doom for the movement, it seems to me that the only reasonable conclusion is that mass action short of armed revolution is futile. That's a pretty serious conclusion. Do you hold that opinion?

>>2163235
Thanks for posting this.

Not incidentally, after getting a fairly good look at both, I've become convinced the only two places that take care of you, where it's still possible to live a really good life in the United States, are academia (inclusive of students) and the military (inclusive of family members, retirees, etc).

Obviously different in a lot of ways, but both of them support you, take care of you, let you not worry, and give you a real community of some sort and the opportunity to fulfill transpersonal goals.

>>2163245

>>2163243 here

lol, i was talking about south carolina and USC.

>>2163248
There's still a lot of community-spiritedness in a lot of small rural towns. It's not something you usually think about, but now that I've felt the atomization of the big city, I've come to better appreciate the fundamental things that were better about life back home.

>>2163084
>you know the rich are paying historically low taxes
Their taxes are larger in both amount and proportion

Quit lying

>>2163249
You got lucky with your high school. Our education system is abysmally underfunded. I only made it as far as I have because I had intelligent parents and about 3 dedicated teachers. You had Palmetto Fellows then? I got LIFE and paid a few grand a semester for food and books.

>>2163235
Hey, thanks for serving, dude.

I grew up in a really rural area, and literally the MAJORITY of the boys in my graduating class joined the military out of high school, precisely for the reason you mention. I was one of those lucky enough to not need it, only child, retired parents with decent savings, good enough grades and extracurriculars to get a little bump of scholarships on top although realistically that doesn't cover anywhere close to to the total cost of school.

Obviously these guys feel gratitude to the military for giving them a chance at a better life, but I think it's fucked up that it was basically their only option. I'm not sure that its in any way deliberate, but its hard to look at the setup- poor forced to risk their lives in order to enjoy any kind of social mobility - without being a little grossed out.

>>2163248
Ever been to church?

>>2163264
Depends on the church. You get a WASPy church, then maybe you can make use of the soup kitchen. You get a small community church, especially a black or hispanic community church, and you're in business.

>>2163260
actually the tax rate for the highest bracket has only been lower twice in the last century and one of those times was leading into to the great depression (the other was during reagan)

>>2163241
I find it kind of hard to believe that your brother got a full ride scholarship to university from his high school for getting the second highest grades in his class. are you sure that's how it worked?

>study full time
>work 30 hours a week on min wage

oh god. when i first started uni (australia), I remember being drummed in my first lecture that those with part time jobs should try to avoid working over 10 hours a week, because your studies should be your main priority and you need to put in 10 hours minimum for each subject per week (4 subjects a semester, usually). Here the government sets you up with an interest free loan to pay for your uni fees, and you don't start paying it back until you get a job and start earning above a certain threshold. And if you're outta home you can get Youth Allowance, which is anywhere from $240-$400 every 2 weeks in study assistance, depending on what you already earn.

i'll also add that being in the '99%' or not isn't a choice for a lot of people. Not everyone has the IQ to get a 3.8GPA no matter how they try. Too many people at fucking university is also a problem.

>>2163261
>20 in-state, 20 oos
Oooooh, you're a McNair. I know a few of them.

>>2163285
Well, just because Australians are lazy, does not mean,

>>2163284
Did you not even apply for scholarships? It's easy to get most of your education paid for as long as you aren't deadset on going to Harvard, assuming you applied yourself in highschool and took some AP classes (and passed the tests).

>>2163257

I grew up in a rural town. To an extent, yeah, and I think it's in many ways a model to study. But A) it's broken down in a lot of ways, B) there's definite limits to it, also shrinking, often down to just family and some for neighbors, and C) there's still, always, fear.

Contrast that to the everything-included safety and social net, and the easy, instant camraderie, of a big research university or the military. Though obviously with the military, there's a different, more substantial, more essential fear.

>>2163264

I've never belonged to one. Haven't been to one for the purpose of worship since like twelve. But I know what you mean, and like the other guy said, you only really find it amongst the poor forced to self-organize. (Which, again, I think is going to be part of the nucleus of any future positive society.) Or really insular, traditional religious communities. And there's limits again, usually ethnic or religious, and most of all they're scrapping around limited resources. They don't throw an endowment or the DoD budget behind you. If you get sick, all the tithes in the congregation won't pay your hospital bill.

>>2163295 It's easy to get most of your education paid for as long as you aren't deadset on going to Harvard

I.e. its as easy as getting into Harvard.

>>2163289
i was in-state, so i was covered by carolina scholars and palmetto fellows. the scholarships were more than adequate for room, board, & tuition costs. OP's pic related is plausible if by "90% of tuition" the author actually means "90% of tuiton, room, & board", which would be roughly twice as much in funding and would certainly cover all costs.

>>2163154
Florida offers full-ride scholarships to every local resident who maintains a high GPA and put in community service hours in high school.

Virtually anyone who attends a state school in Florida starts out with undergrad paid for; maintaining the scholarship is as simple as keeping above a 3.0 GPA

I know Florida actually gets off lucky compared to most states, but scholarships exist. Just because you didn't work to find them or apply for them doesn't mean otherwise.

>>2163306
>and would certainly cover all costs.
woops -- i meant, the author's costs would certainly be covered by a 90% scholarship that includes room & board expenses, plus the 30-hr per week, minimum-wage gig. i can reasonably imagine someone might carelessly write 'tuition' but mean 'costs of attendance', as i observed this slip quite a lot in discussions of grant funding.

>>2163304
>i.e. it's as easy as getting into harvard
What? No. That doesn't follow from his statement at all.

If you made national merit, you can easily be half-way through tuition just with that and any matching scholarships your institution offers. If you're a member of a minority group or can demonstrate financial need and the ability to write an essay, there is usually a list as long as your arm of scholarships specific to whatever college you want to go to that apply to you. They won't pay all of your college, but they'll knock a good chunk off of your costs.

That said, merit-based scholarships become rarer and rarer, and loans become more prevalent.

>>2163308
>Just because you didn't work to find them or apply for them doesn't mean otherwise.

hey, hey, fuck you

>>2163315
>99% bitching about not doing any work and suffering for it

Add on to lazy fuckers not being motivated or working for their standardized test scores in high school. Seriously, it isn't hard to get National Merit.

College has gotten to the point where it's the new high school; if fewer people go to college, and it gains the prestige it once had, then grad school won't become such a necessity either. Meaning even less debt owed for the majority of students.

Sounds like a good system to me.

>>2163316
>college has gotten to the point where it's the new high school
Less than 30% of people achieve a bachelor's degree. It may be getting to the point, but we've got a few years before it's there, so settle down for a minute, Nelly.

I read these types of threads and I wonder, what the fuck is the point of even trying to get an education in this economic climate? The way things are going now, it seems like the whole system is going to collapse in on itself very soon. So many people went to college thinking their lives were set, and now they're working shit, minimum wage jobs and they're still living with their parents. Is that any way to live? Fuck it, why don't we all just kill ourselves now and save ourselves the misery of realizing that nothing is going to get better?

>>2163316
>mfw I got National Merit and never got close to being "already halfway through tuition"

Just shut up already.

>>2163320
So why exactly are you supporting a system that isn't broken enough *yet* to worry?

Sounds just like the reason the loaning market crashed: people who can't afford to pay back loans taking loans regardless.

Just another reason the "99%" needs to suck it up and admit their own faults.

>>2163324
Sounds like you didn't apply yourself past answering multiple choice questions. Good job.

>mfw I spend my summer in an exploration camp in the NWT every summer
>mfw when I'm lazing my way through university, renting a house, buying whatever I want and still having 10K$ in the bank without any debts.
>mfw I'm the 1%
God it must suck to be a poor American.

>>2163326
Because getting a degree was never about getting a piece of paper to guarantee you a job. That you think so makes you as lazy as you are stupid.

Getting a degree was, and remains, about spamming information at people in the largest numbers possible on the off chance that one of them will take that information and make something great out of it. That's what education is for, and we're cranking out innovators faster than we ever have. There's more chaff to worry about, true, but all that means is that employers have to think a little harder before they hire someone. I'm sorry that you're worried you wont be able to hide behind your diploma, but if you're going to exhort people to work harder, perhaps you should consider playing with the big dogs and not bitching that the kennel's getting too big.

>>2163313
>What? No. That doesn't follow from his statement at all.

His statement was clearly quoted.

>It's easy to get most of your education paid for as long as you aren't deadset on going to Harvard

The speaker presents two choices of relatively equal easiness: getting into and stubbornly going to Harvard out-of-pocket, or getting most of your education paid for, which is implied to be the correct decision.

Perhaps the poster does not want to compare getting "most of your education paid for" to "going to Harvard," but that's what the post says.

>>2163338
>Because getting a degree was never about getting a piece of paper to guarantee you a job.
Actually, that's why most people go to college.

>>2163339
No, it doesn't. It doesn't even imply that. It sets up a dichotomy between receiving sufficient financial aid and going to Harvard. The implication is not that getting financial aid is as difficult as getting into Harvard. It's that getting enough financial aid to pay for Harvard is more difficult than getting enough financial aid to pay for any other school. It's that Harvard costs an assload. There is no content to his statement which in any way comments on the difficulty or ease of being accepted by Harvard admissions.

>>2163339
No need to sperg out. Just replace Harvard with the most prestigious libarts school you can get into--my message is the same.

>>2163342
I'm sorry, I was confused. Are you talking about the system, as cited in your posts? Because in that case, we're really unconcerned with the motivations of individual students. The system, you see, is working just fine.

>>2163084

that was never the american dream. the american dream is ANdrew Carnegie. the idea that brilliance and sheer force of will will overcome everything to rise to greatness. the american dream as you describe it is nothing more than mediocrity.

>>2163346
>No need to sperg out. Just replace Harvard with the most prestigious libarts school you can get into--my message is the same.

So, let's say, Williams College.

>It's easy to get most of your education paid for as long as you aren't deadset on going to Williams College.

I.e. it is as easy to get most of your education paid for as it is to get into Williams College.

My point is that these are not easy things, and one should not be upset when people don't accomplish them.

>>2163116
>>2163116
>>2163116
lolololololololol
you MUST be joking.

>>2163345
Harvard gives out a good amount of financial aid though. They have a huge endowment and shitloads of alumni donations.

>>2163116
Technological progress increases the utility of society, but the liberal arts are what challenge anything on a human level.

Hard sciences are typically regurgitation of facts, and things you can find online. Learning how to think is a skill lost on many of these drones, however creative.

>>2163355
Insignificant. He may be wrong, but he's claiming that tuition can be covered by financial aid with relative ease within reason, though some schools have sufficiently stringent economic requirements as to be unattainable.

It would all be over if you guys just went into trade schools. Fuck, the prevailing wage for carpenters in my area is $42 an HOUR. It isn't dissecting Shakespeare, but it challenges you on a daily basis.

Don't want to be one of the 99%? Pick a job where there's a shortage of skilled workers.

Go to /pol/ . This not for/lit/.
reported

>>2163358
>He may be wrong

Which is what is at issue. If he's wrong, his statement attains a different meaning.

>>2163359
You're not getting the idea behind the 99%. Getting skilled work (which, let's admit, is difficult. A well paid carpenter has gone through quite a bit of school and probably an apprenticeship) would put you above minimum wage earners, but 99% of people aren't working at McDonald's or unemployed. The point is that the middle class is disappearing, the fabulously wealthy are becoming even more fabulously wealthy and the middle classes are slipping into the lower classes. So maybe you're now only in the 40%, but you certainly haven't escaped the 99%. For better or worse, the movement is a complaint against a sort of wealth that exceeds the imagination of most people.

Of course, there have been no press releases, but my assumption is that it's not entirely about people wanting a decent paying wage. It's at least partly about being angry that there is a nearly invisible group of people who possess an overwhelming proportion of the nation's wealth and aren't even being appropriately taxed for it.

>>2163359
>It would all be over if you guys just went into trade schools. Fuck, the prevailing wage for carpenters in my area is $42 an HOUR. It isn't dissecting Shakespeare, but it challenges you on a daily basis.

In my area all the carpenters make $0 an hour because nobody is building anything anymore. I just went through bait-and-switch once, not doing it again.

>>2163365
Not for me. :3
I'm a grammar nazi and a constable of argumentation. I leave the politics for younger people.

>>2163370
Yeah, I wondered about the carpentry post.

Don't most people buy cheap shit from IKEA? I mean, I don't think carpentry is booming like it once did.

>>2163368
If the minimum wage was raised, there would be fewer jobs in this country, dummy.

Topics like these are a good indication of why /lit/ needs to be deleted.

Topics about books are inane or get no posts.
Topics like these, completely unrelated to books whatsoever, get all the posts.

>>2163374
>>2163370
Prevailing wage for union carpenters on public works jobs. Should have clarified that part.

But it's true, construction is winding down, but at the same time, there's nobody for most construction companies to hire.

>>2163375
What? I didn't say anything about job production. And the only thing I said about minimum wage was that earners of minimum wage weren't 99% of the population, and the movement has made a point of ingrouping everyone but the unconventionally rich.

Please read the post.

>>2163149

the article is bullshit. the UW is the most expensive public university in Washington, smack dab in one of the most expensive housing markets and highest cost-of-living cities in the United states. if the girl in the picture went to central, western, or eastern, or even Wazzu, her cost of living would be significantly lower with the same minimum wage. I paid $430 a month for my apartment in pullman. it was a single occupant studio. my friends in apartment land normally paid $230 to $280 a month. about half what the person writing the article describes. every other expense in washington outside of the seattle metropolitan area is similarly significantly lower, if not to that degree. over in idaho, the cost of living is even lower, though they're on federal minimum wage, you can get a job in washington easily enough.

stupid fucking huskies automatically assume that everyone went through the same bullshit they did.

>>2163380
I missed the *not in "not entirely". I apologize.

>>2163378
>But it's true, construction is winding down, but at the same time, there's nobody for most construction companies to hire.

Probably because the working life of the average carpenter is twenty years before they tear up a rotator cuff, slip a disc in the spine, drink themself into the shakes or otherwise end up on workman's comp and trailertown.

More room at the bottom though!

>>2163384
>$230-280/mo
Haven't read the article, but this sounds hinky to me. My state is known for low land and rent prices, but even cheap apartments in the city run for 6-700/mo. Most people I know were paying at least 300 each for two-bedrooms. And those weren't nice 2-bedrooms. They were loft 2-bedrooms with crappy heating and no full walls. And that's not counting utilities and furnishings.

>I'm financially fine, therefore there was no recession and the banks shouldn't be regulated

>>2163368
The one percent account for 43 percent of the tax revenue that gets collected by the gov't. THAT is being taxed appropriately. Faggot. What so some people are well off so you want to take all their money away so they can be poor too? You are a fucking idiot and scum. Work hard if you want to do well. Asshole.

>watching Obama give a speech on the news
>"If you vote in a GOP president, you'll have to pay for your own health insurance. By voting in a GOP president, you'll have to pay for your own food and housing."

And this is bad how?

>>2163391
Maybe apartments are that much in cushy upper middle class areas. Lots of people I know who live in seedier areas can rent entire houses for ~$200 a month. This is in TN.

>>2163398
I made a mistake assuming the last person didn't read my post. This time I'll assume that you did read it, but, like the other guy, mistook all of the 3rd person adjectives for first person adjectives. I'm not camping in front of a bank. I'm here. On the internet.

I would like to hear where you got that number from, though.

>>2163402
because gimme dat

>>2163393
Yes. I am working and putting myself though school whilest living with my dad in a shitty one room apartment. We are paying 500 dollars a month and pay zero dollars for heating, water, or internet. While we do like the small space we are greatful for it AND we are grateful for the opportunity to be able to work. This whole Occupy movement is just a buch of naive college kids that are fucking stupid to be paying for college with debt OR fucking stupid people in general. I am poor and I am AGAINST the occupy movement.

>>2163398
>The one percent account for 43 percent of the tax revenue that gets collected by the gov't. THAT is being taxed appropriately. Faggot. What so some people are well off so you want to take all their money away so they can be poor too? You are a fucking idiot and scum. Work hard if you want to do well. Asshole.

This is the argument every year, yet every year the 1% acquire more wealth They must work 300% harder than everyone else to keep getting richer with all those taxes!

>>2163411
Considering they probably put in years of schooling in order to make a return down the road, yeah. Likely.

>>2163414
>Considering they probably put in years of schooling in order to make a return down the road, yeah. Likely.

What difference is there between them and the Occupy movement, other than that the Occupiers haven't seen returns?

>>2163414
What an absurd premise. Schooling costs a fraction of the yearly salary before benefits of the people they're talking about. And we're not talking about doctoral-level work here. We're talking about MBAs. People with masters degrees (even other MBAs) make miniscule quantities all the time. Success in business, at least at the very highest levels, is hardly a matter of educational investment. As far as anyone can tell it's a matter of having sufficient luck, determination, and ruthlessly exploitative drive to climb a corporate shitpile. Take that however you want.

>>2163416
the occupiers are idiots and paid for their education with DEBT. That is the difference.

>>2163420
You sir are correct. If you want to succeed in America you need to be ruthless. Not some whiny little shit with a college degree.

>>2163416
In general terms, those that make money do so because they pursue a means to make money.

Those who pursue an education without a means to pay off their debt (either in return from business post-school or without seeking scholarship opportunities or putting in the effort to find a job or innovate) are as guilty as the banks for lending money, if not more so.

>>2163425
Probably the truest thing ever posted on /lit/

>>2163422
No different then how many companies finance themselves. That seems to go okay, and if it doesn't, there are always bailouts.

>>2163429
>>2163425
Whiny little shits with college degrees detected.

>>2163433
See >>2163425
Banks are in the business to make money.
If people aren't going to be in the business to make money, they shouldn't complain.

This is the most self-entitled generation yet.

>>2163438
Why is money an end in itself?

>>2163426
I'm sorry, I thought the premise I was responding to was that the 1% worked harder than everyone else and didn't deserve to be taxed more. I unfairly read meaning into empty words.

>>2163425
And here's the crux of the problem. If ruthlessness is all that's needed, instrumentally or ethically, for success, then what grounds do you have for institutionalizing the maintenance of that success? Where is the justification for claiming that the occupiers are morally reprehensible or undeserving of respect? From where does the right to demand police action come?

In short, how is seizing by force, or even by demanding political action through sheer numbers, any less legitimate?

It's this objectivist argument all over again. The seizure of resources is taken as the only value of significance until the state of that seizure is threatened, at which point an ethics spontaneously and indecorously arrives, claiming that the original seizure was somehow different, but not really explaining why.

>>2163434
Actually I am working as a paramedic. Only degree I have is from high school. And I am able to live comfortably. Angry college debt idiots?

>>2163439
If it isn't, then the Occupiers have no reason to protest.

>>2163410
>I am poor and I am AGAINST the occupy movement.

Well you are poor, so I assume you are also uneducated (i.e getting a terrible liberal arts degree)

OWS are against corporate-political corruption, terrible economic policies and a lack of adequate financial regulations.

Nothing you said about your life is important in this debate. And Op's pic is equally irrelevant.

it's like saying we should allow fraud to happen because I'm doing ok in this economy...the two aren't related

>>2163105
Well what are you going to do? Not work and starve?

>>2163438
>If people aren't going to be in the business to make money, they shouldn't complain.

>This is the most self-entitled generation yet.

The 1% argue they are now entitled to money, skilled labor, AND freedom from complaints.

>>2163443
The protesters are dirty and smelly. They liter all over private property and impede commerce. That is why the police are involved. They do not receive my respect because they dug their own graves by paying for their education with debt when they had no means to pay off their debt. They are entitled scum.

Do people like the one in OP's pic have any idea how fucking retarded they sound?

>>2163446
No I do not have a liberal arts degree. I was born into a working class family. Thank god there is upward mobility in this country.

>>2163452
Short answer: no, they don't.

>>2163450
People are entitled to whatever they can get.

>>2163452
you have any idea how retarded YOU sound?

>>2163451
You sound mad, and you've made claims of
>entitle[ment]
>private property
in>debt edness
as well as the claim that dirtiness and smelliness somehow constitute moral reprehensibility. None of these are provided for under an ethical system with ruthlessness and success as its sole values. In fact, the only person acting entitled here is the one who thinks the vagrants don't have a right to take his shit if they want it.

>>2163458
I would say people are entitled to whatever they can EARN. Crying about how stupid you are in the street doesn't entitle you to anything

>>2163458
Hypothetical question: if the 99% vote to raise taxes on the 1%, are they therefore entitled to the revenue?

>>2163459
no u

>>2163445
see
>>2163203.

>>2163461
I am mad. They are whiny little faggots who should go get a fucking job. It's not that hard this is America. Even the poor are well off.

>>2163468
They want jobs. Nobody is hiring.

Hello?

>>2163463
No because they are thieves.

>>2163462
What is the definition of "earning"? Does one have to physically construct the things he sells? Does he have to negotiate their price? Does it qualify as earning if, for example, a man achieves a promotion which provides him with otherwise unavailable advantages, which he then uses to make more money than he could without them? That seems reasonable, right? I mean he earned the position in the first place. He payed for it with his effort and he receives returns. But then, what do you do with rampant nepotism, cronyism and even perfectly legal inheritance of property. Now tons of people have resources they didn't "earn", but they're making more money because of them anyway.

>>2163469
I have a job. I am a young adult. I can pay my way though college without whining in the street. hello?

>>2163468
>I am mad. They are whiny little faggots who should go get a fucking job. It's not that hard this is America. Even the poor are well off.

They can't. You don't want them getting any sort of training through debt, remember?

And if they can't guarantee they'll get a job on the other end, they shouldn't get financed.

>>2163474
I'm glad for you. You got yours.

But many don't.

>>2163474
And we're back to "It's not a problem for me, so it's not a problem." That's a fine and democratic sentiment, and as long as you don't have a problem with getting your shit slapped in Congress, I don't mind you holding it.

>>2163472
You sir bring up a good point. I work for the company that my dad works for as a salesman. It is a corporation and he is the top salesman in the country for our corporation. I wouldnt have a job if it wasn't for my dad.
My answer to your question is to become friends with successful people. So stay away from universities and the wal street scum.

>>2163475
He said a job, not a college education.
You start off working minimum wage; pay off the debts you have, or save up so you won't be in debt; you then proceed to get an education; you use your newfound knowledge/skills/connections to secure a job above minimum wage, as you are now skilled labor.

Skipping steps and feeling entitled without putting in the effort before hand is just immature.

>>2163477
Then they should starve within the year and alleviate us all of this artificial "problem."

>>2163477
It is NOT hard to find employment. The employment might be shitty are you might have to flip burgers but it is something and you can do something with what you earn.

>>2163482
EXACTLY.

>>2163483
I agree. The occupying scum SHOULD go fucking die and rid the world of their stupidity.

>>2163488
This.

No one wants to work the jobs "beneath" them.
(And then that opens up the whole issue of unskilled illegal labor)

>>2163482
>Should've dropped out of high school and started working at McDonald's so you could afford college.

>>2163498
If you need to pay for school with unskilled labour then fucking go for it. Just DONT feel entitled to something that you fucked yourself in the ass for.

>>2163488
This is just blatantly untrue. With job experience, education and availability for nights, weekends and holidays, it took me months to find a minimum wage job. Once I had, my boss warned me that they were overstaffed for their payroll, and I probably wouldn't get full-time hours. This is happening all over the country. The unemployment statistics people are shouting at you aren't based on the number of indigents lying around. They're based on the number of people drawing unempoyment. You aren't allowed to draw unemployment unless you can prove you're looking for a job, and you can't draw it for more than 2 years successively or 5 years total. There are shitloads of people not working who aren't in the workforce statistics that people are quoting.

>>2163499
>should have lived within your means, saved up and worked for what you want instead of taking out loans you can't pay off just because they're available

>>2163502
>>2163502
You are doing something wrong if this is really your story. I had no problem finding a job and I am working full time earning 12 dollars an hour.

>>2163504
what he said

>>2163509
Congratulations. Read the second half of the post.

>>2163516
Honestly I don't care about under and unemployed persons. I've got mine.

>>2163519
see
>>2163478

And if you think $12/hr is success, I hope you live in a poor ass state.

>>2163504
>Education should be beyond the means of most 18-year-olds

>>2163522
>self-entitled

>amerikkka #1 country in the world
>no free university-level education

LOL

>>2163525
>self-satisfied

>>2163522

Yes, young adults should be entitled to a good, secure, higher education, especially in a country with a GDP like the US.

>friend is a poor pizza delivery boy
>went to community college
>transferred to a state college
>applies for fafsa
>gets a flat check that pays for his college and living expenses

You niggers are showered with money and help from the government, but you still bitch? Don't blame the government because you're too lazy to even fill out an application.

>>2163546
The FAFSA form is a simple mathematical tool used to determine your level of financial need based on the usual cost of attendance for particular schools. If you receive money based on it, it is either in the form of Student Loans (which are not free, and are becoming progressively less free as of next year), or in the form of a scholarship provided by the university, in which case you did not acquire it by means of the FAFSA, you just filled out the form so your school can be sure you deserve something they would have given you anyway.

>>2163546
http://persephonemagazine.com/2011/10/dont-even-get-me-started-mythical-bootstraps-college-student/

from upthead. it's basically impossible to afford a college education without money from parents or some kind of loan.

>>2163559
Okay, so if you can't afford college then apply for the FAFSA. That's what it's there for.

>>2163567
No, that's with the FAFSA.

If you can't afford to go to college, you take out loans. That's what FAFSA gets for you. The point is it's almost impossible to go to college without taking out some form of loan, and the argument that people only have college debt b/c they're irresponsible is bullshit. We're complaining because we're being saddled with debt.

>>2163570
Okay, so the argument is that you don't like loans?

So, you're mad about the prices of cars and housing too?

>>2163398
>Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner said it’s not only a matter of fiscal responsibility, but also of fairness.

>"We have to correct the biggest problem in our tax system today, which is that it’s just basically unfair," said Geithner, a 1983 Dartmouth graduate. "If you are fortunate enough to be among the … most fortunate 0.5 percent, 1 percent of Americans today, your effective tax burden is in the low 20s, the lowest it’s been in decades and decades and decades — lower than somebody who might make substantially less money."

It's okay, I'm sure Timothy Geithner doesn't know what he's talking about.

Might as well drop this here.

>>2163575
Yes. That's literally the entire complaint: people are complaining about the high debt burden they shoulder to attend college.

>>2163575
Not the other anon, but yes and yes.
The difference to me is, I can find a cheap piece-of-shit car (not that I like that) and rent or buy shitty housing (still sucks), but school is expensive no matter what I choose.

Yes, I hate high prices and people with exponentially more money than me. I also hate that there is nothing I can do about it.

>>2163590
Don't go to college, or work towards getting scholarships that will pay your way for you. Degrees are getting more worthless by the year, and there are far better ways you could spend four years than paying out the nose for a libarts degree that will leave you worse off than when you started.

>>2163398

They account for ~40 % of FEDERAL INCOME TAX. The top percentiles get their honey from a dozen places other than taxable income.

>>2163593

There is no excuse for not having loan-free college-level education for all citizens in a country as wealthy as the US.

use your knowledge to work for yourself and quit bitching about how you don't fit into a small niche. you went to liberal arts school to post shit on 4chan? you should have gone to technical college instead of saving for hippie indoctrination at age 17. You are a piece of the collective effort of the wold if your not an artist. Quit bitching and GET "YOURS" education doesn't mean shit it just means your impressionable

>>2163593
Actually, I'm really lucky. I was valedictorian and got a scholarship from a pretentious private school and about $6000 in financial aid to cover everything. I can live at home too, so I only pay for secondhand books.

But it shouldn't be like that. People from lower incomes like me should have the same opportunities in education without relying on luck. Many people from my high school attend community college for free, and that's something I think should be expanded to 4-year institutions.

>>2163600
WHICH IS WHY IT'S BETTER TO LIVE (AS AN AVERAGE PERSON IN THE NATION) IN THE HANDFUL OF EUROPEAN NATIONS NOT CURRENTLY IN A SHITSTY OR SOMEWHERE LIKE AUSTRALIA OR MAYBE CANADA THAN THE US.

EVEN THOUGH AUSTRALIAN GOVERNMENT STILL HAS 1/2 OF THE TERTIARY STUDIES ON A LOAN, YOU RECEIVE MORE THAN THAT 1/2 IN FREE SUPPORT THROUGHOUT YOUR STUDIES. LIKE AN ALLOWANCE.