/lit/ - Literature

>>21626867
Why do you care about human suffering?

shit threads like these are meaningful arguments against antinatalism.

>>21626867
My children won’t suffer and if they do it will build up their character

>>21626883
>character
Define this meme word

>>21626867
https://www.abolitionist.com/anti-natalism.html

> In an era of biotechnology and unnatural selection, an alternative to anti-natalism is the world-wide adoption of genetically preprogrammed well-being. For there needn't be selection pressure against gradients of lifelong adaptive bliss - i.e. a radical recalibration of the hedonic treadmill. The only way to eradicate the biological substrates of unpleasantness - and thereby prevent the harm of Darwinian existence - is not vainly to champion life's eradication, but instead to ensure that sentient life is inherently blissful. More specifically, the impending reproductive revolution of designer babies is likely to witness intense selection pressure against the harmfulness-promoting adaptations that increased the inclusive fitness of our genes in the ancestral environment of adaptation. If we use biotechnology wisely, then gradients of genetically preprogrammed well-being can make all sentient life subjectively rewarding - indeed wonderful beyond the human imagination. So in common with "positive" utilitarians, the "negative" utilitarian would do better to argue for genetically preprogrammed superhappiness.

> The negative utilitarian ethicist might dismiss this alluring prospect as pie-in-the-sky. Like negative utilitarianism itself - and Benatar's argument that sentient existence entails intrinsic harm to its victims - the superhappiness solution invites ridicule, ad hominem attacks, and incredulity. But a cruelty-free world is technically feasible. And unlike anti-natalism, there are strong sociological and technical grounds to predict that the application of biotechnology will wipe out the substrates of suffering for good.

>There are no meaningful arguments against antinatalism
If you accept utilitarianism. Why do you assume that utilitarianism is correct and everyone must accept it? Life is not about maximizing pleasure and minimizing pain, QED.

>>21626934
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lx3rdVQZ3mo
https://www.hedweb.com/

>>21626937
Here's an entire playlist on why you should be a utilitarian:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL_HJ0tBxcTkZq-_b-P2xkKFhPkn85-_H9

>>21626867
https://nintil.com/1-pollyanna-uber-alles-a-critique-of-antinatalism
https://nintil.com/further-thoughts-on-antinatalism

>So far I have established two points. One, that the Asymmetry argument for antinatalism fails. And two, that life is, after all, nice (For most people).

>But what about those who genuinely do regret having being born? One first response is the Caplan-Perry synthesis: You are free to reject life (in the sense that if you rationally want it, you shouldn't be stopped), and we should all work towards a society where that option is open to people (In approved medical centers, for example). That way, those who prefer non-existence can go back to it and those who prefer existence can keep it.

>Now, when thinking about bringing someone new into existence, chances of something terrible happening to that person exist. Should a future person be subjected to the mere possibility of such things just to allow the existence of other people? Because clearly, if we accept that no amount of good can compensate a given bad within a life, the fact that somewhere, at some point, someone with such a life could be born would be a reason to stop any procreation. Which is why we have to reject that.

>If on the hand hand we have the cessation of all conscious life from the universe and in the other having a minuscule minority of people who will live awful lives, it seems clear to my that we should opt for the latter. And in addition, we should also aim for a world were the number of people who regret existing is smaller and smaller. It is fortunately the case that we are not in a world where suffering is a metaphysical necessity.

>>21626950
>And two, that life is, after all, nice (For most people).
Cognitive dissonance

>>21626867
OMG SO TRUE DUDE LIFE IS SOOO SOOO HARD OMG SO SAD, ANYWAYS LETS GO BACK TO PLAYING VIDEO GAMES AND FORGETTING ABOUT FUTURE GENERATIONS HAHA. LETS JUST ENJOY THE NOW AND EAT SUPER YUMMY FOOD!!!!!!! OMG I LOVE FOOD!!!!! WHY WOULD WE TRY AND ENSURE THAT IDEAS AND INTELLIGENCE GETS PASSED ON TO FUTURE GENERATIONS WHEN WE HAVE GOD OF WAR RAGNAROK OMG OMG OMGOMG OMG OMGOKMG AND PORN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

>>21626943
Are you here to discuss things or to post a bunch of links?
Your whole outlook rests on the assumption that we ought to maximize pleasure and minimize pain. I reject this "ought" outright. And it cannot be defended without nebulous emotional arguments. Simple as.

>>21626867
God is real and life has purpose
next

>>21626867
>suffering le bad
>reeee I'm objective
Tell me why are you still alive?

>>21626934
>>21626943
>>21626950

Utilitarianism is a vulgarity and has nothing to do with Antinatalism.

>>21626883
Kek that's what my grandmother used to say. But my uncles work 12 or 13 hours a day like slaves. And one of them already received brutal rekt in a machine.

>>21626867
I read Conspiracy Against The Human Race all the way through and through it was very edgelord

>>21627204
Damn

What you feel about Ligotti's prose

>>21626867
>Suffering is ... Le BAD!
Wrong. Read Nietzsche.

>>21626867
>my life sucks therefore nobody else should have sex
Relax nerd you weren't gonna reproduce anyways

>>21626867
>There are no meaningful arguments against antinatalism
Nothing was ever achieved voluntarily.

>>21626867
The fact antinatalists dont kill themselves is a good signifier against their ideology. Like a rich communist. If life were a net negative, there is no logical reason to remain living. If there was nothing in life, why are you still here?

I'm not having kids because it looks horrible but antinatalism is retarded because its utilitarianism.

>>21626867
Every time an antinatalist makes a thread about it instead of killing themselves, their argument gets a bit weaker. It starts to seem more and more like you faggots just don't want the responsibility of children were you wouldn't be able to just jerk off and play vidya all day

>>21626867
>another episode of a blackpilled incel literal faggot trying to metastazise his personal depression into a universal metaphysical principle like a literally cosmic narcissist
Don't care, still breeding with my gf, simple as.

Why argue against my competitors who willingly remove themselves from the earth? lol

>>21626962
>IDEAS AND INTELLIGENCE

>>21628760
I like those things. All antinatalists can say is they hate life. It's not about logic.

>>21626874
this

>>21628776
Saying something isn't "logic and reason" is just as cringe as antinatalism.
Life is a disease btw.

>>21628811
>Life is a disease
You presented a premise and a conclusion in one. There's no logic in between. It's not something to be argued against, it's just an empty statement.

>>21628820
True statements need no garish rationalizations. All of that is just mental wankery for literature nerds, neurotic intellectuals and academics.

>>21628836
Truth is relative. You prefer death, so life is miserable for you. Whereas I prefer life, so I believe life is wonderful.

Antinatalism is the latest in a long tradition of hedonistic copes.

>>21628841
>preferring the transient to the eternal
You do you.

>>21628836
>True statements need no garish rationalizations
What makes it true? You have an intuitive objective sense of what is true? That's commonly called divine revelation. Do you hear the voice of God telling you to kill?

>>21628851
Death isn’t eternal, retard. There’s no such thing as not existing

>>21628862
Then where does your consciousness (or soul, if you prefer that form of mental cuckery) go?

>>21627016
>>21628636
>>21628709

Just like clockwork the "kys" 90iq crowd pops up in every anti natalism thread. As if their argument hasn't been refuted a thousand times already

>>21626956
That phrase refers to a state of holding conflicting beliefs or attitudes. The fact that you think they believe something false has nothing to do with cognitive dissonance.

>>21628876
Life is either worth living or not.

>>21628901
Its not, but I have wasted too much time dealing with this bullshit. I just hope I live long enough to witness the final solution to life on this planet, however that might look like.

>>21628811
>calls others cringe
>""""""Life is a disease btw."""""

>>21628901
Even if its not that doesn't imply one has the means to end it.

>>21628947
There's an apparent end, at least to the suffering we see. If there's no reason to stay not going for the door can only be cowardice.

>>21626867
People have a natural drive to reproduce and they will do so forever. You can have all the fun you want with your abstract arguments about what "justifies" pro- or antinatalism, but it will never change reality.

>>21628983
Disgusting impulsive hedonists.
Why can't everyone be superior like me!?

>>21628986
>hedonism
Aren't there procedures to enable people to have sex without making children?

>>21628994
That concept is a little too advanced for most of the worlds population, especially the shithole kind.

>>21628978
> If there's no reason to stay not going for the door can only be cowardice
Ah, and here the 90iq reveals itself

>>21628983
People have the drive to have sex. Dreaming about being a daddy and teaching your son how to whittle or whatever is just another lifestyle fantasy and is exclusive to humans.

>>21629085
WHEAT FIELDS! UGGGGGHHHH TRAD!

>>21629039
Thanks for contributing. You have nothing to say about any subject except "no". It's always the same retards with no grasp on anything repeating these memes.

>>21626867
Cope, seethe, and dilate about the fact that regardless of how much thought you put into the futility of life, women remain the sex that selects. Cocks are the only thing that can penetrate a woman. No amount of masculine consciousness, thought, or argumentation can sow its seed in the vast black womb of the feminine unconscious. The prime focus of antinatalists should be the wresting away of reproduction from women in the form of artifical wombs. Actually develop the technology, advance the science, or shut the fuck up. Your intellectual masturbation about the suffering of it all is, like your seed, absolutely useless.

>>21629213
>I MUST BREEEEEEEED NO MATTER THE WHAT

>>21626867
>There are no meaningful arguments against antinatalism
yeah 'cause you're an incel faggot who will ignore arguments to the contrary so you can enforce your own patently nonsensical utopian narrative. same shit every time.

>>21629000
Having sex without the explicit purpose of procreation is grotesque hedonism. The third worlders are right.

>>21627413
Nietzsche was coping, suffering is indeed bad.

>>21629242
Abos didn't even know that sex makes babies until colonists came.

>>21627021
Utilitarianism
>maximize pleasure principle
Antinatalism
>maximize pleasure principle by minimizing pain

All forms of antinatalism can be considered utilitarianism.

>>21629251
Doesn't matter, having sex was a valuable action that proliferates life regardless. The intention is irrelevant. Only a*glos are so concerned with castrating themselves and their wives.

>>21629259
>Having sex without the explicit purpose of procreation is grotesque hedonism.
>NOOOOO, IN THIS CASE IT DOESN'T MATTER, BECAUSE THEY ARE IGNORANT SAVAGES
I have to agree on one thing, fuck angloids.

>>21629248
Nope. Suffering is based and redpilled.

howcome the only meaning nihilists and anti-natalists have in life is to complain about life?

genuinely, shut the fuck up.

>>21629300
We'll see when you'll have a disease

>>21629307
We don't really have to speculate, we can check to see how something like that generally changes perspectives.
It's the most spoiled people that say dumb shit about how life is pointless not the people actually suffering and dying, they tend to be much more positive. This suggests I would embrace life even more in your scenario.
It's all relative, life is terminal and all suffering is a self imposed product of the mind. When my finger was crushed in a press the physical reaction was minor, the real pain came when I looked at the finger and my mind made it a big deal.
Your constant pain is there because you like it, even your intellectual pursuits revolve around amplifying and feeding it, you're addicted to it.

>>21626867
some of our greatest people are antinatalists

https://odysee.com/@Realfake_Newsource:9/RFNS-8.22-002-014:9

>>21629362
>Your constant pain is there because you like it, even your intellectual pursuits revolve around amplifying and feeding it, you're addicted to it.
Its like oxygen.

>>21628876
>how do I stop a cake from being baked?
>well you just destroy a cake
You see why I quit arguing antinatalism? They're not going to get it, ever. Pearls before swine. Just keep your thoughts to yourself and run down the clock with the rest of us. Let the ignorant inherit the earth.n

>>21629436
>le caek analogy
You should try Reddit.

>>21629436
Wanting to stop all life even if it doesn't affect you in any way implies an imperative, a will which is a product of life. You want the cake but still demand it's not baked.

>>21626867
Leftypol thread, no discussion of books in the OP, just pushing antinatalism on the West.

>>21629468
/lit/ does have turdies too, right? I mean they aren't ALL illiterate savages, right?

>>21629459
You're confused. In this analogy there is no want of the cake.

You would have to pick some arbitrary point at which you can "unbake" it, so attacking the speaker for not having killed themselves is tantamount to criticizing them for being able to "undue" the process.

I'm not sure if you're aware but death =/= not birth.

>>21629468
Go start an antinatalism thread on /leftypol/ and tell me how that works out.

>>21629477
Cease this schizo meltdown at once.

>>21626867
Nonexistent people by definition can't be the object or factor into moral consideration as moral considerations deal with being good towards other actually existing beings. "We do harm to someone by bringing him to life" is nonsense because, in the alternative, there is no "someone" to be moral to.

>>21629702
no

>>21629213
Wow the refutation to antinatalism is so simple: women are stupid and control birth, therefore it will never work.

>>21629713
Hypothetical "people" are still people, just like anglos and jews are "people"

>>21626867
I agree.

>another anti-natalist thread where breeder filth present laughable excuses for their evil
If there's a hell, you're going there for having kids.

>>21626867
The more souls in a blissful timeless infinity the better.

>>21629697
Your desire for nothing to happen is an appetite that's produced by the baking instead of the nothingness you're appealing to as good.
All your braindead nonsense about not having agreed to be born assumes a mountain of horseshit all derived from being a living organism. Your ideas of what is good, what you want and what a "you" is all come from the thing you want to abolish. There's nothing there, no thought to engage with, just a living retard saying he hates life.

>>21626867
>There is no way for that person to not look at it any other way than an injustice, and essentially a crime.
You contradict this claim with your first sentence, which is itself built upon the false premise that only the "luckiest bunch" consider life to be "worth it". The majority of people share the sentiment that life is very much worth living. If you're entirely unwilling to entertain any justification that doesn't rely on subjectivity, then your own subjective idea that life can be ultimately defined by suffering. The objective justification is that life is programmed to propagate. It's our biological programming, and your way of thinking is a fault in yours. The entirety of your argument boils down to whining that life sucks on the basis of subjective cynicism.

>>21629883
>then your own subjective idea that life can be ultimately defined by suffering
*then your own subjective idea that life can be ultimately defined by suffering must be discarded.

Natalist fags cannot be argued with

>why don't you kill yourse-POW RATATATATATA CHICK CHICK BANG-ACK!

>>21626874
because i am an empathic, benevolent person

>>21626950
>life is, after all, nice (For most people)

delusional cope

>>21626950
>If on the hand hand we have the cessation of all conscious life from the universe and in the other having a minuscule minority of people who will live awful lives, it seems clear to my that we should opt for the latter.

of course it seems clear to u if you're not in the "minuscule minority (LOL) of people who will live awful lives"

2 lions and a lamb voting on what to eat for lunch

I'm an antinatalist, but see zero reason to argue the position with anyone. I mean I'm not here crying because people are breeding, and the chances of me convincing anyone not to breed is about 0. So there's no point. I will just opt out of reproduction quietly.

>>21626867
Cope, nihilistic cuck. I woke up last night and spent two hours looking out the window watching snow billow across the roofs while laying on a couch with my cat at my side. That gave me satisfaction and peace of mind that you would never achieve in your pathetic miserable life if you choose to stay depressed faggot. I'll gladly stay alive through all the grief and hardship if it means i get to do this for hundreds more nights.

>>21630212
Another reason why weirdos should be segregated.

>>21627199
They could've changed their fate at any moment.

>>21628876
>As if their argument hasn't been refuted a thousand times already
Projection and no u is not refutation, no matter how hard you try to pretend it is. Why are you faggots so close-minded?
>>21629436
>You see why I quit arguing antinatalism?They're not going to get it, ever. Pearls before swine
There's nothing to "get". You just have no argument.

>>21630831
even if you convinced 99% of people to be anti-natalists, that remaining 1% and their progeny will eventually be the only ones left and will repopulate the earth.
only sure way to stop humanity from continuing is having an omnipotent government that sterilizes everyone forcibly. or the easier option, commit omnicide with WMDs.
now you see why some people see anti-natalists (not the "personal choice" kind like yourself) as evil.

>>21630769
As long as you alive, you can improve things. Cope.
Inb4 you could be disabled yada yada

>>21626950
You can't "go back" to non-existence

>>21629254

No. "Pleasure" is just as absurd a violation as "pain", the two being contiguous, if not coincidental. Antinatalism should regard the destruction of both as a Moral imperative.

>>21627207
it's good

>>21631254
They're all evil. Good has always been what serves life/creation. They're against everything good and even the nature of reality itself so they're evil.

>>21629746
This is so retarded for an antinatalist to say. In such a case, abortion would be immoral since you would be killing a hypothetical person. You stupid morals are contradictory.

>>21631736
Suffering is bad, living is inherently suffering. Living is bad.
Simple as
You could argue that some don't suffer, but some will always suffer, especially animals.

>>21632150
You're just stating an aesthetic preference again, an opinion only expressed by people with certain psychological profiles.
>Suffering is le bad.
It's adversity, the thing life revolves around overcoming. In your fantasies you always add adversity, you don't like video games where there's no adversity to overcome. Suffering is your favorite thing even in your fantasies.

>>21629362
Would you trade 10 minutes of intense pleasure for 10 minutes of most excruciating pain?

>>21632536
I prefer the pleasure but that preference is defined by context, things like the existence of pain. It's the personal preference in the moment of an organism, not some law that it's always better. If I never knew anything but pleasure I would take the 10 minutes of pain.

>>21631814
Death is the preferable state. Can you even die before being born?

>>21629883
>The majority of people share the sentiment that life is very much worth living.
That's just biological deterministic cope they are programmed to think as if their only mantra. If they were actually sentient beings they would realize what horror existence truly is.

>>21631222
She could've changed her fate at any moment.

>>21632299
>life is le good
>death/nonexistence is le bad
Good/evil dichotomy is le spook.

>>21626867
Every version of antinatalism I’ve encountered seems to require some kind of utilitarianism (or at least consequentialism) to get off the ground. Otherwise, appealing to suffering is pretty weak.

>>21633518
>death/nonexistence is le bad
It's adversarial to life and I like life. A healthy organism avoids death and the word evil is usually used in this context given by life. In that context murder is objectively evil but the idea of an objective fundamental force that's somehow "evil" seems relatively recent, it's not really in the Bible. Satan is in the court of God in the Bible, evil describes human actions that go counter to the flow of healthy life.

>>21633563
>muh sentimental attachment to life means its good, because I LIKE IT.
>death is le "objectively" bad, because MUH FEELS.
>muh god, muh bible.
Death is inevitable.

>>21633514
Is this the girl from that famous photograph of the victim in a dress holding her hands out?

>>21633575
>death is le "objectively" bad, because MUH FEELS.
I said the opposite. Fundamentally there's no objective evil but given certain premises then it follows some things are. Within the context of a living thing where the goal is to survive and procreate there are things that objectively help you reach the goal and things that objectively stand in the way of your goal.
>because I LIKE IT.
Either way I go it's an aesthetic choice not some objective fact like you retards keep claiming. You have to start from some premise to say anything. I like life so I don't want life to stop existing. You hate life so you want to destroy it. I have to accept your premise to accept your conclusion and I don't accept the premise.

>>21626867
What if we claim that there is meaning in everything, even in suffering

>>21633606
That's fine. There can be ultimate meaning in suffering, half meaning, 8oz of meaning per gallon, that doesn't entail you run right out and rush into it, nor should you sign up others.

This is why AN only makes sense as a consequence of pessimism, not nihilism.

>>21626867
>creating life means you create suffering
That's one sided.
>you don't know though!
Neither do you.
>so all life should end...
That's extreme and you haven't proven life creates more suffering than joy.
>if you don't exist you don't feel either!
I don't accept that corollary because you haven't proven the aggregate of all life is suffering. Also, logic follows you kill yourself.
>no because I'm alive and that creates harm!
So you value your life and disregard your own point about nonexistence meaning suffering doesn't exist.
>for others though!
Again, you're demonstrating your life has value and I can add the corollary you kill others as well.
>...
So are you going to give me a reason not to reject your fundamental premise? Will you at least acknowledge the counter narrative I've established that underscores the logical inconsistency of your position and demonstrates your fundemental premise is weakened by your own reasoning?
>...
Hello?
>UNREFUTED!

Anti-natalists are fucking retards.

>>21633725
If this was /b/ I would be dumping gore and animal torture.
>UNREFUTED!

>>21633665
like what if meaning literally permeates everything so even we are suffering it is there

>>21633738
That's the thing, now define meaning, after that, state its use. Meaning towards what or to which end? To a metaphysical actor? Okay, so what value does their sense of meaning contain?

>>21626867
Here's one, you're a whiny faggot. Maybe if you werent such a whiny faggot life would be better for you and you might understand why someone would be pro natalist.

>>21633772
It is its own end, it justifies itself

>>21626867
if reincarnation is real, dying childless will all but ensure that you reincarnate as an insect or something.

>>21633735
>If this was /b/ I would be dumping gore and animal torture.
And yet you still wouldn't be proving the central premise that underlies your entire basis of argument.

Anti-natalists are fucking retards.

>>21633738
If everything has meaning, then nothing does.

>>21626867
don't need any, it's self-refuting

>>21626867
Okay, then don’t have kids. Rest of us will go on with our lives

>>21626867
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkkJ4HztuQ0
Kevin Solway.

>>21633826
Anti-natalists as a group seem to be mostly edgelord pseuds and/or people who hate their lives and think you should as well. They indoctrinate themselves with a really simplistic line of argument and are unable to comprehend that their fudamental premise is unprovable and the extremes they're arguing toward are therefore laughable. They repeatedly assert their logic is unrefuted because they hold that all arguments must be in line with their fundamental premise ("YOU CAN'T JUST REJECT IT!"). They don't mean to be disingenuous, they're just retarded, and will slink away when directly challenged only to come back with "UNREFUTABLE!" yet again.

As far as ideological thinking goes, antinatalism has to be one of the absolute dumbest avenues out there. It's even worse than Randianism.

>>21626867
Disproof by contradiction. Start with the assumption that birthing a child is a moral wrong against that child
>assumed premise: making a child is a moral wrong against that child
>truth 1: to commit a moral wrong against someone, one must take an action which harms them
>truth 2: if something is a moral wrong when it is committed against someone intentionally, it must be a moral wrong to attempt to do this to someone but fail (eg murder vs attempted murder)
>truth 3: one can attempt to have a child but fail (eg infertile people who are unaware of their condition)
>truth 4: someone must exist to have a moral wrong commited against them
>conclusion: according to our assumed premise and our known truths, since it is a moral wrong against that child to have a child, it must also be a moral wrong against that child to attempt to have a child but fail. However, if one fails to have a child, then the child does not exist. By known truth 5, a moral wrong cannot be committed against someone who does not exist. This creates a contradiction. Therefore, using proof by contradiction we have shown that having a child is NOT a moral wrong against that child

Life itself is immoral and parasitic in its nature, like a cancer.
Checkmate natalists.

I love having kids and there's no feeling in the world better than cuddling up to my wife at night and feeling her pregnant belly.

>>21633890
I’m a natalist but this is just embarrassing

>>21633897
It's impossible to make a moral claim without presupposing life

>>21634627
If it were, there would be no antinatalism in the first place or it wouldn't be consistent.

>>21626867
I haven't heard a meaningful argument in favor of it. Reading antinatalists always makes me think Nietzsche was right to suggest a person's philosophy is very much influenced by their body and health. Antinatalists are simply depressed.

>>21626969
You reject it because you personally find it displeasing.

>>21635163
One could say the same about antinatalists' attitude towards life.

>>21634627
Thats because you presume life is the default.
Protip: its not

>>21636117
>again the retard restates his premises without any justification
>he really believes putting it in the form of emotionally charged propaganda makes him seem more reasonable
>muh six gorillion
Dumbest creatures that have ever breathed.

>>21636146

What premises are those?

>>21636158
Reality is le bad.

Just here to say that you are all faggots who have never. felt. Anything.

>>21636218

Given that all lifesucking arguments could just as easily "prove" that the Holocaust is at least not bad, if not good, what arguments are there to the contrary? Unless, of course, you want to claim that the Holocaust IS good?

>>21636230
I don't accept any of your empty premises no matter how often you restate them. "Good" is basically a word biological organisms came up with to describe when life is going according to plan.
You subvert the word to mean a completely abstract absence of suffering with no relationship to anything. It doesn't mean anything when you use it and you don't try to make it mean anything. You keep appealing to the definition as it exists in the context of life but apply it in no context at all, as some kind of fundamental aspect of reality.
This is because you never thought about anything, in your mind everything is conceived of as fundamentals like in a cartoon or videogame despite all these concepts being defined by context. This is also how propaganda manipulates, concepts are conditioned as fundamental elements in the mind instead of being built up using reason from reasonable premises.

>>21636283

You have not answered my question.

>>21636289
I did and elaborated way more than your empty posts deserve but nothing I say will have any effect because you don't understand anything about any subject.

Now that I think of it, antinatalists are to people what atheists are to people

>>21636305

No, you did not. Insofar as you affirm life, do you also affirm the Holocaust? Yes or no?

>>21636315
Just kill yourself retard. I "affirm" a billion years of violent death that dwarfs muh holocaust. If you don't kill yourself that's an affirmation of life. Appealing to premises derived from life to pass judgement on life is also an affirmation of life.

>>21636360

There you go. You are a cretinous animal. Also, performing the act of suicide will not yield the intended results given that the idea of Causality and the idea that life is good walk hand in hand.

Antinatalism is a meme ideology like anarcho-primitivism or libertarianism. Some good points within their own framework diagnostically speaking that immediately fall apart when faced with implementation in the real world. But almost all ideologies are desu, it's just the most obvious with these far fetched naive ones.

Any prescriptive morality that is obviously not going to be able to be implemented on a meaningful scale is an exercise in vanity, an intellectual accessory, a memetic purse to show off to others.

>>21636379
Justify your braindead shit retard. Engage even a little bit. Why are you all incapable of anything but restating your conditioning as if it's fundamental to reality?
>performing the act of suicide will not yield the intended results
Then you're basically back to a position where you're claiming everything is at the mercy of God so your empty whining has no possible way to achieve anything, it's just the moaning of a retard completely unable to navigate what he's presented with.

>>21636315
If the holocaust did happen it put a lot of jews out of their misery, which is in the end good.

>>21636379
The reason you hate life has to do with your specific psychological situation not fundamental reality. If there's reincarnation or one universal observer or whatever and you kill yourself you have removed the source of resentment and made the total experience of the one observer better.

>>21636416

Your second point is also absurd. If Causality is true, then why have things not reached their Causal finality yet?

>>21636445
What even is this? You are experiencing a process in time right now, that's life.The totality can be complete from an objective perspective but the experience of time and causal chains is still there for the process within it. If it's simulated a million times you experience it the same as the one life. Again you can't model any phenomena, you just have these conditioned fundamentals in your mind that don't actually mean anything.

>>21636475
>lifesucker is also a relativist

Clockwork.

>>21636485
Present an alternative. Present something at all. If you work from some braindead assumption about how reality works then you'll reach braindead conclusions but you can't even present these assumptions, just conclusions you assume everyone shares.
This is called being a brainwashed retard. You can't justify the conditioning, only appeal to it over and over as if it's holy dogma that's inconceivable to question.

>>21636510

I do not assume that everyone shares my conclusions at all. Hence me deeming you a cretinous animal.

>>21636614
Then say something retard. Communicate a thought process. I listened to hours of you retards since this suddenly became a trend shilled by discord trannies and none you can say anything except "I resent reality" and sometimes "I resent reality therefore everyone else objectively should too".

>>21633795
Just say your evil sadomasochists who like suffering, for fucks sake! That way youd be revealing your true selves and antinatalists will stop bothering you

>>21626867
Heres my argument: kill yourself; the world would be a better place if you and your ilk never bred

>>21626867
He looks like me except not as handsome I am going to kill myself too.

>>21626867
>antinatalism succeeds, humanity goes extinct
>intelligent life develops again and suffering comes back

>>21637071
Not my problem

>>21637260
Lol, it's definitely your problem if you want suffering to stop
antinatalism fails to achieve that

>>21637071
The chimps are next in line, imagine the psychopathic orgy of violence.

>>21637071
Yeah if suffering is inherent wouldnt the smarter thing be to attempt to consciously lessen wherever you can? Since as a human you are in the rare position of being able to choose to do this, as opposed to your atoms going back into the ecosystem and inanimate matter, where it is mostly just chaos

>>21637358
There are negative utilitarians who take this seriously, they do things like changing their lawn into a rock garden to minimise insect reproduction and actually eat beef instead of a vegan diet because replacing nature with farmland vastly decreases the amount of life per square foot and thereby suffering.

The rational way forward for a suffering decreaser is American style concrete subrban sprawl, turning the whole world into a parking lot for your SUVs to buy roast beef sandwiches from chain restaurants and allow nature as little space to work her horrors as possible.

>>21637407
I meant just being nice to people

>>21637418
Needs more autism m8

https://reducing-suffering.org

>>21626867
Antinatalism cannot exist because it negates the future existance of antinatalists.

>>21636689
>JUST ACCEPT WHAT WE CAN'T PROVE
No, prove it first. You can't. You won't accept that you can't. That's why: antinatalists are fucking retarded.

>>21637442
If what you said made any sense then anti natalists wouldnt exist in the first place...

The only real argument I can come up with against antinatalism is mostly covered here >>21626950 except I would change that life is good for most with the idea that not all suffering is equal and is very subjective. Some people can tolerate things more than others can. Most suffering is overcome or at the very least isn't permanent. I think the question of should you reproduce is too personal and subjective to have a real answer. It's also possible you'd essentially eugenics yourself from the pool from the people who disagree with the idea. Life is not all suffering, but suffering, once again, is usually relative. Suffering can also sometimes be useful for bearing with future suffering, making it more tolerable to the point where it could hardly be considered as such.

>>21637442
see >>21637465
Every antinatalist is the product of two natalists.

The real question is why is there so little suffering when I can imagine so much worse. Why do brutal killing machines built by genes to wage war experience love. Every moment of life is clearly a gift from the source of love. #Live laugh love.

>>21637350
Chimps are just hairy humans.

>>21637407
Sounds based to me.

>>21637450
>JUST ACCEPT WHAT WE CAN'T PROVE
Like global warming?

>>21637751
SHEEEIT, this post turned me into a natalist. Where my breeding bitches at?

Matt refutes anti natalism flawlessly https://youtu.be/n9BFG0Xh4Wg

>>21626867
The infinite suffering is worth preventing the world being taken over by negros

>>21637920
The world IS the negro

>>21637857
It is. Consumer society is the height of morality, not even being sarcastic.

>>21638090
I hope this planet drowns in its own shit.

>>21626867
Bringing new children into the world forwards the perpetual self-advancement which all of universal history has been leading towards. Eventually this will culminate in a self-union of universal spirit where those who were once born and once died will be revived and brought into everlasting happiness and bliss with the rest of the universe.

His axiological asymmetry fails.

>>21638173
>perpetual self-advancement
you what, bitch?

>>21638179
elaborato por favor

psa (for based antinatalists only) that the first english translation of volume 1 of mainländer's main work is set to be published this quarter.

>>21638313
Based, finally. Who is publishing it?

>>21638263
Well, it's just one argument by Benatar: he argues that for an existing person pain is bad, while pleasure is good (it's the left side of the matrix), while for a non-existing person the absence of pain is good, while the absence of pleasure is neutral (right side of the matrix).
He therefore concludes, that non-being is strictly better than being, but his assumptions are a bit weird. Wouldn't it make more sense to think, that for a non-existing being the absence of pleasure and pain are both neutral? Or that the absence of pain is good, while the absence of pleasure is bad? I prefer calling both neutral, but I think both of these views make more sense than Benatar's view.

>>21638173
Apocatastasis is our only hope. But it will probably only be very brief bliss not eternal.

>>21638324
some small australian press. there's a post somewhere on the front page of the mainlander subreddit about it (i'd link you but i'm afk atm).

>>21638429
thanks, i found the post i think

https://www.reddit.com/r/Mainlander/comments/zuz96p/update_on_translation_of_the_philosophy_of/

>>21626867
I mean, cosidering the suffering will eventually end, who cares, maybe my children will find some meaning in this. God exists btw.

>>21638488
>God exists btw.

>>21637868
I'm willing to bet that most anti-natalists are less concerned with global warming than they are with proving all lives are just as shitty and unproductive as how they perceive their own.

>>21628876
You didn't answer the question. You avoided it. Why don't you kill yourself anon?

>>21638547
>if you're against rape why aren't you celibate? checkmate atheists

>>21626943
Utilitarianism is retarded because the feeling of pleasure is necessarily subjective. I can't feel other people's pleasure so why should I bother at all with maximizing it? Egoism is the only rational conclusion.

>>21626867
It's against nature. I will not elaborate further or even return to this thread. You are welcome.

>>21638577
Is ≠ought. But if you're retarded enough to derive some sort of teleology from trends observed in "nature": The vast majority of species have gone extinct. The norm is to die out.

>>21637887
Holy shit, he sounds like the religious people he dunks on. Its funny how antinatalism does that to atheists. Turns out they do have some sacred cows.

Race Realism
Gender Equality
Antinatalsim

if you are atheist there is zero reason to not be antinatalist. of course atheists are not known for their logic

>>21626867
There is an end to suffering

>>21638675
Actually Christians being antinatalist makes more sense. For atheists/nihilists it's just whatever.

>>21638588
You need an ought to describe what is.
That it's easy to go extinct is not a reason to do it. The two options have always been die or contribute to transcending our current form and creating something greater.
Antinatilism is the spirit of all those losers that died, the failures being embodied again because life is too good right now and people with diseased brains survive to adulthood. The good thing is you're contributing to selecting for working brains by not having kids.

>>21626867
Their argument:
>antinatalists central claim is that life is harm
>they argue that you have to be alive to feel pleasure and stress this isn't guaranteed
>they argue that if you're not alive you are guaranteed not to suffer/harm
>[no guarentee of pleasure, risk of suffering/harm, therefore nonexistence is best = basic thread of argument]
>note: they also like to being up that the fact you don't have a choice in coming into existence
>they conclude that not reproducing and ending life is the optimal outcome to reduce harm

Why they're refuted:
>antinatalists can't validate their central claim as they cannot weigh the total value of life in aggregate (the best they can do is assert individual bad things happen)
>[this is all the refutation that is needed: they cannot draw logic, let alone an extreme conclusion, from a central claim they are unable to prove; simple as--but lets go on to point out their bad logic]
>they place the weight of guaranteed outcomes on detractors but they don't have prescience to forsee the outcome/value of individual lives (let alone the aggregate of all life which they are assuming) but...
>antinatalists are attempting to prove their conclusion and thereby the onus is on them produce a stable logic based on a proven premise
>however, any single example of value in life automatically contravienes their premise and contradicts the logic they attempt to assert
>[antinatalists are generally filtered by this because they still affirm their premise even though reason has been given to reject it]
>we may come to the idea of suicide and ending life (which is logically coherent with their outlook while showing their values are actually incosistent)
>suicide automatically means an end to suffering, any harm caused doesn't exist for the victim (aside, the absence of existence means you can't even weigh such anyway)
>denial of suicide is an affirmation that value exists in life (or else why not? note that they won't even admit that suffering is short relative to continued existence, they really want to avoid clearly weighing anything)
>if the antinatalist says it affects others a consistent logic follows that they kill them as well (the sooner the better in fact--stop them from reproducing which puts an end to countless future lives)
>alas, the anti-natalist will assert their original logic no longer applies once they are alive (again, affirming the value of existing and demonstrating their logic can actually be harmful)
>the last bastion is they HAD no choice to exist (convienently it doesn't matter that they have one now) but again there are plenty of examples of lives worth living

>>21639078
Why antinatalists are retarded:
>no matter how many times you point out how AND why their premise is ungrounded they will still assert you must argue within the logic it sets out
>no matter how many times you point out the logic is inconsistent they retreat to the idea of their unfounded premise and assert it follows naturally
>no matter the absurdities you can show as consistent with their reasoning (i.e. you shouldn't kill yourself let alone others) they will simply change the rules
>life is valuable once it exists and yet we need to stop it from existing...that's what their bullshit boils down to and it's utterly stupid

At this point it's worthwhile to point out antinatalists will ignore strong arguments against their case and use any excuse to stay within their own logic. It must also be noted that trolls responses of "I guess I'll kill myself and others" are retarded: the point is life is valuable and you fail to prove otherwise. You affirm an extreme conclusion, ending all life, based on a demonstrably flawed premise and inconsistent logic. Refuted. Stop making these retarded threads now.

If your goal is to stop suffering not breeding isn't enough, you should be trying to kill everything on the planet. I, for one, don't think an ideology that encourages global genocide is a good idea.

>>21626867
>There are no meaningful arguments against antinatalism
Yes there are. That means that when i rape your women, their children and consequentially their children will be further reminder of your failure

Antinatalism just kicks the can down the road. Intelligent life got here once, whose to say it wouldn't happen again? Better to just live life peacefully and try and help your fellow man clean up after themselves.

>>21626867
Yea it's an opinion. Read ligotti

>>21626874
>>21626883
>>21626937
These are the heartless selfish retards that antinatalists have to deal with

>>21626867
Well under eastern thought you are giving a being a chance to escape samsara, so it can be a good act.

>>21636893
What suicide method are you going to use?

>>21638562
>if you're against rape why aren't you celibate?
I'm gonna use that

>>21638577
>appealing to nature
LMAO

>>21638679
yes

>>21639077
Being an impulsive normie that blindly follows their animalistic instincts is easymodo.

>>21639384
ur a fag THO, opinion discarded

>>21626867
Well I don't care and I'm going to do it anyway.

>>21639830
I saw a webm about this in /gif/
What is the context of this? Why do they die this way? Or is it murder?

>>21640113
Did it for the lulz and to dab on life afirmers.

>>21637450

See: >>21636360

>>21639078
>>antinatalists can't validate their central claim as they cannot weigh the total value of life in aggregate (the best they can do is assert individual bad things happen)

Absolutely irrelevant. As long as there is Evil, any and all amount of good, not to mention the "total value of life", is irrelevant.

The only way to refute it is through religion.

>>21640224
>god will validate my actions

>>21626867
Procreation is irrational. Therefore antinatalism is not valid.
>If children were brought into the world by an act of pure reason alone, would the human race continue to exist? Would not a man rather have so much compassion with the coming generation as to spare it the burden of existence, or at any rate not take it upon himself to impose that burden upon it in cold blood?
>Arthur Schopenhauer, On the Sufferings of the World, 1862

>entire world currently experiencing demographic collapse
>antinatalism experiencing a renaissance and resurgence

Not a coincidence. This is what you call a philosophical cope. Clearly people are creating an identity around not having kids because they would never be able to have kids even if they wanted them anyway.

>>21640299
How do you explain antinatalists exist at all then?Are their arguments just cope camouflage for the fact that their desire not to procreate is just as irrational as that of others to do the opposite?

>>21640315
>>entire world currently experiencing demographic collapse
Except the 70 iq continent who have kids with zero reflection about it being a good idea or concern about the future person's welfare.

Maybe intelligence is dysgenic and the most succesful humans biologically speaking are the ones with rat mentality. Meanwhile noble condors and tigers are like "I can't breed" when they're kinda nervous.

>>21640495
>Except the 70 iq continent who have kids with zero reflection about it being a good idea or concern about the future person's welfare.

No, even their continent has collapsing birth rates, it just started later than ours.

>>21640504
Got a source perhaps? From what I've read that was projected to happen but based upon the hopeful expectation that Africa will develop ecoconimically among similar lines as Europe or Asia.

>>21640495
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJDcoqrh1ac

this is actually happening. in england the only demographic with a positive fertility rate are welfare recipients and criminals.

>>21640513
The country with the highest birth rate in Africa is currently having the same trajectory as every Western nation had after WW2.

>>21640495
>Except the 70 iq continent who have kids with zero reflection about it being a good idea or concern about the future person's welfare.
Nope, the entire world.
By 2050 at current trends. You'll be able to count on your fingers the countries above replacement. Might even be one hand now, Yemen was on the original lists but that was before the prolonged war was in full swing.

>>21640534
>>21640538
What is causing this you think? Just modernity?

>>21640580
Social mobility. I think that when societies get increasingly developed, people get richer, but society also gets more expensive, meaning having a lot of kids interferes with your social mobility. In other words, if you are striving to become upper class, having 1 child instead of 3, greatly increases your chances of penetrating into the elite strata of society because too many children are a net economic drain on your resources.

Now, you might object by asking why then do the poorest people and the richest people on the planet still have kids? Easy, because the rich don't lose their class position from having them, and the poorest gain more labor. It's always the striving middle class that have fewer and fewer children.

>>21640489
They don't "desire not to procrate". They resent everything because they're losers. Using these "arguments" they can pretend they never wanted to win in the first place.

>no meaningful arguments against antinatalism

Pusy good.

>>21640489
Antinatalists are rational unlike natalists. Natalists are basically "animals". The problem arises when antinatalism does cannot work due to the existence of these "animals"

>>21640652
Nobody needs to have any arguments against you though. People can just leave you alone and you just breed yourselves out of existence.

>>21640664
I have two kids atm.
Going to have more.
pusy gid

>>21640652
>>21640693
Boypussy is way better so refuted

>>21640210
>>no matter how many times you point out how AND why their premise is ungrounded they will still assert you must argue within the logic it sets out
>>no matter how many times you point out the logic is inconsistent they retreat to the idea of their unfounded premise and assert it follows naturally
Every time. Retard.

>>21640806

The claim I quoted is totally irrelevant to the Antinatalist position. Who or what are you replying to?

>>21640809
>refused to acknowledge the context of the argument
>instead made an assertion without even proving it
Antinatalists aren't intentionally disingenuous, they're just retards. You faggots need to stop making threads.

>>21641278

Logic was never the lifesuckers' strong suit, but this is pathetic.

>>21641336
Antinatalists are retards and can't construct a real argument. This means they don't know when they're BTFO and will just continue to sperg and/or start a flame war.

Imagine trying to boost your self-esteem by arguing life isn't worth living online. Kek.

>>21626867
antinatalists refute themselves by staying alive

>>21641610
antinatalism =/= antimortalism. There are suicidal people, but a lot of human beings generally have mechanisms within them that are pushing them to survive. Despite having the belief that no new life should be created, you can believe that those already living have an interest in continuing to exist.
Not agreeing with one side or the other by the way, but it seems they take a utilitarian viewpoint that staying alive and complaining takes less mental agony than going through with suicide which is interesting

>>21641750
>life is worth living once you're alive
They refute themselves but they're too retarded to notice.

>>21626867
Why do we keep having the same threads?

>>21641945
>Why do we keep having the same threads?
Because people keep posting the same threads

I just don't get antinatalism. Whenever I hear people online talk about it, even if they're cogent, it just sounds like "I wish things weren't the way they were."

So fucking what? You won't convince anyone. You can't force it on anyone. What's the point? What can you do with this line of thinking? It's just... Dumb and bordering on pathetic.

>>21642197
It's kinda like being an anarchist or something. You can sincerely believe in it's tenets but you will never implement it on a large scale so it becomes kind of a hobby or fashion accessory.

>>21642329
Except anarchism is a legitimate political movement.

>>21626867
>There are no meaningful arguments
I agree.

>>21641610
Not all antinatalists are promortalists.
Promortalism is the last blackpill

>>21626867
>is some kind of appeal to subjectivity
That's an argument.

>>21626867
>appeal to subjectivity
this is not a grounds to rejecting an argument when it comes to ethics, because ethics itself is subjective (unless you're a religious person i guess)

>>21642400
No political movement without a change of winning is legitimate.

>>21642197
>"I wish things weren't the way they were."
Antinatalism is more like: "The future is uncertain, if I look back there is only disaster, suffering and misery, why should I keep walking and why should I force others to do it?"

>>21626867
Why is it only huwite niggas who preach this shit

>>21643005
That picture with monkey throwing the hand grenade is pretty funny. I going to have children so I can show them it.

>>21643005
If someone looks back at their life and just sees misery in the wake, they're either extremely unfortunate or living their life improperly. I'm not super rich, and I have challenges like everyone else, but when I reflect on my years I feel proud and grateful. I prefer existence to non-existence. Life is an unearned gift.

>>21643005
Because you just make room for the natalists to do it. You need your high empathy genes to take over.

>>21643005
THE MONKEY GOT INTO THE ARMOURY ‘ERYONE GET DOWN

>>21641791
I quite literally can't kill myself.

>>21626867
Love is real. Not everyone is doomed.

>>21643598
Good because you shouldn't.

>>21640489
>How do you explain antinatalists exist at all then?
Psyops victims who try to cope and spread their issues. Should have kicked out the baby torture tribe instead of worshiping them.

>>21643598
I know that feel

>>21643598
Why?

>>21631194
>the solution to antinatalists is doing nothing and having an emotive surrogate who totally depends on you
Cat lady detected

>>21640778
Given the vast amount of scientific literature about what happens to ppl with the habit of sticking it in each other pooper you cant refute shit (and soon will not be able to shit at all)

>>21643598
Literally just stop drinking or eating. Some even manage to stop breathing.
Skill issue.

>>21626867
The meaningful argument is that you are both a homosexual and a defeatist on an existential scale.

They're doing such a good job defeating OP that they went with the "make a thread begging jannies to ban you" line of argumentation.

>>21645827

>>21626867
The only god is my love and I love to breed.

We’re going to recolonize Africa and do all you hate.

Then will colonize and terraform the universe and then the multiverses

Infinite of my people
All almighty gods loving the infinite of their love for eternity

There is no argument against me doing what I love.

People like OP lack the love to live.

But I don’t.

I’ll be a futa god soon. Breeding upon the carcass of Israel

And making my endless children immortal via genetic modification

>>21646581
Did they really?

>>21648020
Yeah, it was >>21646589