/lit/ - Literature

her sweat glands and other parts of the skin responsible for the disposal of dejects since it is it what aggregates the water bath any value, the water only composes a 'solvent', although i haven't read the capital for knowing if there's something like this in marx idea

Karl Marx would have been a dope drinking buddy

LTV was really only meant to describe mass production within the context of capitalist factories

>>21610880
if you dont mind paying for the booze and having him bum cigs off of you

>>21610887
What abut the service sector?

>>21610836
The bottling plant.

>>21610836
Everything and anything is a means of production, commies/socialists are retarded fucks who have an outdated and wrong view of reality, in the real modern world a mere phone is a means of production since you can make money with it taking pictures, recording etc.
That's also the reason why socialists have always historically hated sex work, since the means of production is the body itself of the person who sells her own body, sex work has also entirely subjective value so it directly destroys the commie/socialist belief that there's such thing as objective value and that the time you put working on something is what gives it value
Basically sex related work refutes socialism/communism because in reality people are private property themselves.

>>21610836
LTV is for commodities, not artisanal goods, whose price is essentially unfixed

>>21610836
>delphine
A 5/10. What the fuck is wrong with the internet?

>>21611179
Water is a commodity you dumb fuck

>>21611194
"gamer girl bath water" isn't, you loathsome gargoyle

>>21611205
Yes it is, gamer girl bath water is water and thus a commodity, you clean yourself with it, you can spray your garden with it, you can drink it, and water is essential for all life, it's a commodity.

>>21611225
qua water, sure, it's water. But that's economically secondary.

>>21611089
Hoping that this is bait

lol

>>21610836
>The faucet?
>faucets take baths
LOL

>>21610889
who in the world would not spend $5k and ass fuck that dude after you drink him under the tabvle screaming the means of production is my erection only pausing to berthage 1 sec LOLOL j/k got excited/
lel

srly i don't want to stop the thread. i know i'm too intense but

>>21611089
But anon. Socialism wants the worker to own the means of production. If a prostitute owns her own body, then that is the worker owning the means of production. As long as she's not hiring other people and paying them via wage labor it's not capitalism.

>>21611653

>>21611761
YOU'RE NOT THAT PRETTY LOL

>>21610873
You are joking but this is close to what Marx once said.
>The self-employed labourer, for example, is his own wage labourer, and his own means of production confront him in his own mind as capital. As his own capitalist, he employs himself as a wage labourer.

>>21611089
They consider sex work to be unproductive labour, because the the product is inseparable from the act of producing it. Even if she is part of a brothel, she pays for rent + protection, which is not the same as the relation wage labourers have to capitalists.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1864/economic/ch02b.htm
This is very interesting, because the first world has almost completely abandoned 'productive' labour (which means they have even less interest in a revolution?). Maybe a Marxist has updated this distinction considering the explosion of the service sector.

>>21610836
Her marketing network, you fucking retard. It's not a commodity without 5000 Instagram accounts posting about this #outrage.

>>21611089
>Everything and anything is a means of production
Congratulations on making a concept completely and utterly meaningless.

>>21610836
Since the trade value of Delphine's bath water is not based on the actual bath water but rather on the symbolic value that is Delphine as a public persona, the means of production in this case would be her cam equipment.
But since she is neither a capitalist employing other people nor producing anything related to the common, she is not of any real concern to a marxist analysis.

>>21610836
Onlyfans its the only thing that gave her any relevance to be able to do this. Onlyfans is a perfect capitalistic app. Also seize her website without those the gamer girl water is unable to be produced and just becomes ordinary bath water down the tube

>>21610836
marx shitty theory only accounted for reproducible commodities

>>21611089
>sex work
Go back

>>21610836
Individuals can obviously not be employed, own their own tools and such and sell things they totally produce themselves without being employed or employing anyone. If you're not an idiot you'd know that the central thing about economics is how long run price of things are determined which Marx thought was totally about labour markets and capitalist investment.

>>21610926
Things like land have a price but don't "produce" value and just entitle a claim on new value generated. Capitalism has all kinds of overhead costs which are a net deduction on surplus generation.

>>21611179
Non-capitalistic production of commodities occurs obviously. Slavery was a thing when Marx was alive. A modern example would be military cost maximizing strategies.

>>21612388
>This is very interesting, because the first world has almost completely abandoned 'productive' labour (which means they have even less interest in a revolution?).
And yet they get the bulk of the claim on the global surplus. Most people in the first world were working family farms still when Marx was writing. The third world is less "productively" using their populations, most people informally are getting any income they do.

>>21610880
He was very aggressive when drunk. He was known for provoking fights

>>21611765
you're not funny

>>21610836
the means of production are all the materials and implements used to operate on and transform the materials
>>21610887
>>21611179
the concept of the means of production is independent of LTV
>>21610926
yes, it applies to services too. he's just wrong
>>21611089
>in the real modern world a mere phone is a means of production since you can make money with it taking pictures, recording etc.
you're wrong because Marxists do consider phones means of production if they're used as means to produce things
>That's also the reason why socialists have always historically hated sex work
no, that's not the reason. the reason is because it's a person degrading themselves out of compulsion of private property
>the means of production is the body itself
no, the body is part of to the working subject. while the means of production are external things used by the working subject. the working subject himself is not the means but the agent employing the means.
>sex work has also entirely subjective value so it directly destroys the commie/socialist belief that there's such thing as objective value and that the time you put working on something is what gives it value
1. that sentence is not only packed with vague buzzwords but it also doesn't even make logical sense. 2. Marxists don't claim that the time you put working on something is what gives it value. 3. you picked quite a retarded example because prostitutes literally bill by the hour
>>21611179
"artisanal goods" produced for sale are still commodities. it's just that their supply is limited, so their price is not bounded by value
>>21611205
it is a commodity
>>21611225
>gamer girl bath water is water and thus a commodity
no, gamer girl bath water is gamer girl bath water, not water. but if it's produced for sale, it's still a commodity.
>>21611758
>Socialism wants the worker to own the means of production
no, socialism wants the society to own the means of production, which entails the abolition of wage labour, including prostitution
>>21612367
it's not that close, because Marx distinguishes the labourer (including his body) from his means of production

>>21612388
>They consider sex work to be unproductive labour, because the the product is inseparable from the act of producing it
no, that's completely wrong. what determines productive labour is whether it produces surplus value, not whether its effect can be embodied in a separate object. and many sex workers do produce surplus value for their pimps
>https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1864/economic/ch02b.htm
your own link refutes you:
>to be productive labour is a quality of labour which in and for itself has absolutely nothing to do with the particular content of the labour...
>A singer who sings like a bird is an unproductive worker. If she sells her singing for money, she is to that extent a wage labourer or a commodity dealer. But the same singer, when engaged by an entrepreneur who has her sing in order to make money, is a productive worker, for she directly produces capital.
>>21612795
>Her marketing network
not really. the marketing network helps turn the use-value of the commodity into something distinguished from mere bath water in the eyes of the buyers, but it plays no role in producing that use-value itself, it doesn't alter the water, the container, etc., themselves in any way. so it's not a means of their production. it's a means of producing marketing though
>>21613234
no, Marx's theory accounts for why the prices of non-freely-reproducible commodities aren't bound by their values. he even wrote about it in Capital

>>21610836
>If delphine sells bath water what was the means of production?
>The faucet?

Video camera and production
Physical network infrastructure
Other network layers up to the user app level
User's own computer and network
The dam, faucet, water, glass
The labour power exerted of Delphine and her Pimp and the maintainers of the above
The accumulated "social capital" in the brand image Delphine which sells a scarce product that is financialised, much like the money form.

Delphine here acts as a claim that the commodity available will satisfy needs difficult or impossible to acquire elsewhere: of some desperately needy post-adolescent selling a virgin/slut dichotomy with vague anime themes. Delphine's past performance implies that the current product on offer will be more slutty, more virginal, or more anime.

It is a similar issue to other skilled performances, like professional wrestlers or basketballers or cricketers. Nobody can pretend to suck a cock while wearing anime elf ears like Imran Khan. Nobody can perform in 5 day test cricket like Delphine.

>>21610836
The value of the bath water is ritual value, not labor value. Read Walter Benjamin.

>>21616608
>Benjamin
mistakes Young Marx's pronouncements on humanity for a system of critique of the movement of capital.

Besides, the real money is in used tampons.

>>21610836
The means of production of the faucet, bath, water extracting equipment and jars. So mostly in China.
Also the means of production of the transport equipment and equipment itself.

The rest is bourgeois degeneracy.

>>21615617
Marx was a drunk who was too lazy to even pay rent. Nobody gives a what what he had to say, and nobody will ever give a fuck what you have to say. Go be a shabbos goy somewhere else.

>>21615617
>no, socialism wants the society to own the means of production, which entails the abolition of wage labour, including prostitution
Socialism is the idea if you kill and steal from enough people, equality will emerge. "Owning means of the production" has nothing to do with. You just tell lies, and you find suckers who are gullible enough to believe it.

>somebody talked about marx in the marx thread and now i'm mad!

>>21616608
no, the value is labour value. it's just that its value is irrelevant because it doesn't determine its price, and the product is directly for unproductive consumption
>>21616990
>Nobody gives a what what he had to say
who asked you? the anon I was replying to certainly cares, since he linked a text of Marx himself
>>21616996
google breathing exercises