/lit/ - Literature

>>21590083
>I want to know why early christians got so invested onto this ?
Knowing who or what God is in important, and there is obvious references in the OT and NT alike to God, and God’s Word, or His Wisdom, or His Spirit, etc. This was made clearest when Christ came, but the philosophical defense of the Scriptural language came later.

>but why the hell come up with a third thing ?
Because the Spirit is in the OT and the NT.

>>21590083
Between this weird shit and the henotheism of the Jews it’s obvious thay Islam is the only real monotheism.

>>21590088
>Because the Spirit is in the OT and the NT.

The nature of the holy spirit is barely on the NT and on the OT is questionable since it is a Christian reading of the old text

If the answer was very clear, there wouldn't have been some much theological infighting between even early Christians about the nature of the holy spirit

Paul states (can't remember where) that the Holy Spirit penetrates the soul of the Father, whose soul is infinite. The only way that this could be true is that the Holy Spirit is also God.

>>21590095
>henotheism

the Tanakh is old, very much so. It makes sense there would be henotheism on bronze age judaism, and as such these traditions would have followed on the texts. But modern (and even second temple period) judaism is very far from anything beyond monotheism

>>21590107
so the nature of the holy spirit is not even explained ? just barely implicit

>>21590083
You know how God is the first thing to ever exist, but also fundamentally all-loving? If nothing exists before God, God can't be fundamentally all-loving because there would be nothing else to love. In Christianity, God is both noncontingent and all-loving because the Father and the Son love each other before the creation of the world. The Holy Spirit is the love that exists between the Father and the Son that acts as an intermediary between God and the rest of creation.

The Holy Spirit is the "Spirit of God" navigating the formless material world in the first chapter of Genesis.

>>21590083
It's not meant to be literally three different being, they're simply three ways or manifestations that we, an imperfect being, can perceive a perfect God.

- As a Father/superior/higher power
- As a friend/companion/example (the Son of Man)
- As an ever-present motivator and force for change to demonstrate his perfect love ever more effectively to ourselves and others (Holy Spirit)

>>21590083

>I don't know if I should ask /lit/ or /hist/ , but considering this is more theological I guess here makes more sense:

STRICTLY, THEOLOGY IS OFF TOPIC IN BOTH BOARDS.


>why the hell are christians so invested on the holy trinity, and what the hell is the holy spirit?

BECAUSE THE HOLY SPIRIT IS ONE OF THE THREE PERSONS OF THE DIVINITY.


>I get the whole 1+1+1 = 1, that's not what matters to me.

IT IS MORE AKIN TO: 1 = (1) (3)


>I want to know why early christians got so invested onto this ?

EARLY CHRISTIANS? YOU MEAN CHRISTIANS SINCE THE BEGINNING TO NOW.


>I can see the logic behind jesus = god, but why the hell come up with a third thing ?

THE PERSONS OF THE HOLY TRINITY ARE INFERRED & DEDUCED, VIA REASON, FROM THE KNOWLEDGE THAT HAS BEEN REVEALED, NOT CONCOCTED OR INVENTED AS IF THEY WERE LITERARY CHARACTERS.


>couldn't it just be a holy doublet or something ? seems way easier and by the history it seems not even christians know excatly what the holy spirit is

IF THERE ARE GOD, THE FATHER, GOD, THE SON, THE HOLY SPIRIT IS THE ANIMA OF THE DIVINITY, AKIN TO A MOTHER, OR WIFE.

IF GOD, THE FATHER, IS THE HEAD OF THE HOUSEHOLD; IF GOD, THE SON, IS THE CHILD, THE HOLY SPIRIT IS THE LIGHT & HEAT EMANATING FROM THE HEARTH, MAKING OF THE HOUSE A HOME.

>>21590132
WHY ARE WE SCREAMING AAAA

>>21590139


WHAT ELSE DO THE VOICES TELL YOU?

>>21590083
Holy Spirit is the person of the Trinity that Christ gives to us on the cross. Read the Catechism on it but TL:DR is that the Holy Spirit is what prays for us, gives grace, is the guide of the Holy Catholc Church, and also is basically the mysterious x factor catchall for various theological principles. Said otherwise, the Holy Spirit is the us via the Church as the Father was to us via Israelite Prophets.

>>21590116
>just barely implicit
Pretty much. Many trinitarians would agree with you. The concept of the trinity was heavily debatable within the first few centuries of chrisitananity until the Council of Nicene. I wish I can give you a better explanation but I am not well versed in dogmatic theology. I think it's right to say that the concept of the Holy spirt is very implicit in the NT and relies heavily on the interpretations of the early church fathers (or even those later on like Thomas Aquinas) Perhaps you can try finding an answer from their words or reading about what they believed.

>>21590146
yeah... well more homework for me I guess

But you get my question right ? like, why get so invested in something that is 'barely implicit' when something like 'this jesus fella is god on the flesh' seems way more important and way more simple ?

like, the more I read about the holy spirit, the more it seems like a foot note for chistianity. But for some reason it has the same level of importance as jesus and god, which blows my mind

>>21590139
Every time I see cumgenius I imagine a metal guitar riff and read the post in Christopher Lee's voice

>>21590132
>IF THERE ARE GOD, THE FATHER, GOD, THE SON, THE HOLY SPIRIT IS THE ANIMA OF THE DIVINITY, AKIN TO A MOTHER, OR WIFE.
>IF GOD, THE FATHER, IS THE HEAD OF THE HOUSEHOLD; IF GOD, THE SON, IS THE CHILD, THE HOLY SPIRIT IS THE LIGHT & HEAT EMANATING FROM THE HEARTH, MAKING OF THE HOUSE A HOME.

this doesn't explain anything

>>21590185


IF YOU CANNOT UNDERSTAND A SIMPLE SIMILE, HOW WOULD UNDERSTAND A PROSAIC EXPLICATION?

>>21590197

>IF YOU CANNOT UNDERSTAND A SIMPLE SIMILE, HOW WOULD [YOU] UNDERSTAND A PROSAIC EXPLICATION?

>>21590197
you said yourself that the nature of the holy spirit is only inferred but never explained, so I guess there's really no better explanation than vague metaphors

>>21590215

>you said yourself that the nature of the holy spirit is only inferred but never explained[...]

?

NO.


>[...] so I guess there's really no better explanation than vague metaphors[.]

YOU SHOULD LEARN TO THINK, AND TO MAKE BETTER QUESTIONS.

>>21590241
>THE PERSONS OF THE HOLY TRINITY ARE INFERRED & DEDUCED

do you even stop to think what you're writing ?

>>21590246


THAT IS NOT WHAT YOU CLAIMED THAT I STATED; LEARN HOW TO READ, TO THINK, AND TO MAKE BETTER QUESTIONS.

>>21590083
wasn't just christians. aristotle had the golden mean. i'm sure others realized how eloquent the difference between 2 and 3 really was when trying to understand why 1 was different from 2 everpresent in our minds. there had to be something that came into being that made that trinity and it turns out it was all just the same thing.

you think benign mistranslation dominoing into thousands of years of misinterpretation is unique to that problem alone? imagine trying to teach math to those violent morons, "strength in numbers" and you've got an army like that? so where did this holy spirit come fro? that's 3.
>what's 4?
>to bring salvation to mankind silly X)

>>21590130
Succinct post

>>21590130
>If nothing exists before God, God can't be fundamentally all-loving because there would be nothing else to love

I can see that, but I fail to understand how the holy spirit solves this

In my eyes there being Father and Son alone solves this problem, why another third thing ?

>>21590310
Don't you remember the Dove and Noah?
It's a recurring theme. The dove there was the messenger, sealing the pact.
Think about its iconography. What does it represent?
The symbol of peace, the greatest symbol of meakiness (which is one central idea in Christianism, I'd argue).

>>21590420
But that's not what the word meak means in the Bible. The untranslated word is closer to ' long suffering' than modern connotations of meak. That's what I heard. It's a rumor. You told me that.

>>21590107
He doesn't say "soul"

>>21590083
My pastor says the Holy Spirit is a person. Makes no sense, even contextually from the scripture. Then you realize that if any old bloke can feel the Holy Spirit, any man could make canonical claims about God. The church doesn’t want this. And I understand why, I’m not saying that our religion should just be some subjective new age thing. But that’s just how it is. I’m a Lutheran BTW

I have my own theories of the trinity being an Aristotelian invocation of humor in origin, and have drawn the comparison to the Pythagorean fundaments of shape; but I should note that this is an inference I've contrived for a script in which I pretend I've read Aristotle's lost book On Comedy, as part of a joke. It might well be possible that Aristotle would have tried to define humor geometrically and I was trying my best to recreate my version of what makes the best joke from that perspective, and wound up with some interesting story points, which I won't spoil here. But obviously the fact that Aristotle's On Comedy is lost and Poetics isn't suggests heavy revisionism to religious thinking that would likely have originally had a place for coarse humor and a system for distinguishing this from amorality

>>21590566
So in a sense the messiah has the Holy Spirit hormone, the way organisms compete for the leader hormone, and your dogmatic viewpoint boils down to flexing over who gets to be the alpha(Aleph)?

>>21590588
No, wise guy. Not like that at all.

>>21590594
So is the Lutheran interpretation of the Catholic concept of the Trinity different? I'm not sure what you're saying but I can tell you're trying to sound very impassioned about it.

>>21590594
Are you saying that you subscribe to the belief that the messiah is a divinity, and you're indignant like it's a touchy topic?

It’s blasphemy. There is no god but god, and he is Jesus Christ. Whenever he spoke of “his father” he was speaking of himself. “The holt spirit” is some judeognostic heresy.

>>21590083
its ironically in the name
the holy spirit is the soul and it is everywhere in creation: it is what lets it love

>>21590638
Sophist

Jews did religion first nigger, you're the one who's wrong. Stay mad

>>21590658
There are many parts of creation that choose not to be imbued by the will of its design so your sweeping generalization analysis is incorrect, if well-intentioned.

>>21590130
This is the interpretation that makes the most sense to me but a lot of hardliner Orthodox deny it because it's "filioque" which I guess they have all sorts of reasons for disliking

I suppose they have their reasons but I don't really know how any other formulation would logically work because otherwise it doesn't seem like there's any actual difference between the Son and the Spirit, how is there any actual distinction between the two when they both proceed from the Father alone? Does the Spirit have some trait that the Son doesn't, or vice versa?

>>21590614
I’m not trying to sound smart or anything, it’s a genuinely frustrating thing for me. The Christian conception kind of rules out any spiritual aspect of the Holy Spirit. In essence, you can’t be OVERCOME by the Holy Spirit like you can a demon. Scripture is very explicit in saying that the devil can influence your thoughts. But for some reason, the Holy Spirit cannot. I don’t understand why not. The New Testament makes the Holy Spirit sound kind of like a substance that you attain through faith, but not one that really guides your mind.

>>21590627
It’s a touchy subject, not because of me, but because it’s very controversial even within my own church’s seminary. Also, it’s frustrating when every path of Bible study leads you to a guy telling you that you don’t actually get to experience it at all. I’m not trying to sound complicated or anything like that.

>>21590083
The holy spirit because it is the feminine Shakti (energy/power) of God, ascending and descending, this would have made sense to the earlier pagans, it is interesting though that the holy spirit lost its sophic feminine characterization, even though I'm sure if we look into early Christian history there would have been people discussing this spirit as such.

>>21590709
>Scripture is very explicit in saying that the devil can influence your thoughts, but for some reason the Holy Spirit cannot

You're gonna hate me for saying this, but that's all a bunch of revisionist bullshit. All pure thought at least in the art of delegation like writing or giving orders, originates with the Holy Spirit, it's the extent to which you alter your moral instinctive imperative (yes morality is important in humor and thus in the trinity) that you would corrupt providence

>>21590083
It's because Christians are pagan at heart and cannot deviate from that even if they convert to silly hebrew cults like christianity.

The jews are content with their one god, always have, always will. It's in their blood.
But us white people are predisposed to worshipping multiple gods, and of specific types.
There has to be the rude head of the gods, who is an old man with a temper. That's God.
There has to be a heroic son of the head god who plays a more pivotal role. That's Jesus.
There has to be a great goddess mother of all. That's Mary.
There has to be a messenger of the heavens. That's angels.
There have to be fighters and warriors. That's Michael.
There have to be a myriad of smaller dieties going down even to the level of individual and household gods. Those are also angels and cherubs and stuff.
There have to be a distinct heaven where the gods reside, and hell where the damned reside, overseen by various staff of heaven.
There have to be physical idols, manifestations of these gods. There have to be a priests who conduct sacrifice and burn incense. There have to be seasonal holidays that people in the desert don't know of.

Christianity in its original hebrew form has been butched and frankensteined with Roman paganism practically since the beginning, and that's just the way it is and the only way it can be.
Even with the protestant reformation, it didn't take long for these socalled "I read the bible only" christians to start reintroducing catholic aka pagan elements back into it.

There's the trinity because one god wasn't enough, two gods wasn't even enough. Had Christianity not died out recently. You would eventually see it develop and saints and angels would be considered to be equally or atleast closely divine to God

>>21590799
can't I just be Christian without being Catholic or Protestant or Mormon or some soft nuchristianity
I don't get it.
The book is right there

>>21590799
Christianity started in Egypt way before the Romans did that to Christ. And Jews had polytheistic tribes too at one point, look at the Spartans for example. I'll follow your example of drawing Greco Roman religious comparisons here

>>21590709
I have to address the part of this where you say that it all leads to a guy saying you don't get to experience any of it. What are you talking about here? Is this a criticism of literary censorship and revisionism itself, or of a person? Because it sounds like you mean a guy.

>>21590083
>What the hell is the Holy Spirit ?
Anon, go ask a priest in a church if you really want a definitive answer.

>>21590083
the presence of God in us. the Spirit that dwells in our personal soul.

>>21590083
There's a discussion about how Moses and Aaron witnessed god directly, but everyone afterwards had the spirit of The Lord come upon them until the fall of the first temple:

Now there's problems, the spirit of the lord pretty clearly is indicated as urim and thurim, which is basically casting divine lots:
"LORD, shall we invade them tomorrow?" no
"LORD, shall we invade them tonight?" yes
"LORD, shall we invade them tonight with molotovs?" yes
"LORD, shall I fuck a sheep before we do that?" no

etc.

At other times the spirit of the lord seems to just be advocating exclusivist Jerusalem Only no sexy fuccbois YHWH worship.

So its a pretty slippery thing, but there's a clear distinction made between THE LORD direct and THE LORD via spirit. But the spirit is not a coequal continuance of THE LORD, but a secondary emination at least until Psalms 28 (the recent reading of the fanfiction is only up to there).

The Greek bits are even more perverse with concepts like The Pit magnified into Sheol, and secondary eminations of God everywhere like piss mixed with amyl at a gay orgy, and everyone's trying to copy the best books of the OT that they like while importing their post-Maccabees estoterica.

But, yeah, pretty much its tertiary fan fiction and a new character addition; it largely fills the functional role that Asherah played in First Temple texts of an unspoken alternative to The Father. But the NT is way way way more focused on the Son of Man / Son of God distinction anyway.

If you actually believe any of this shit ask your priest or start reading someone serious like Luther or Calvin if you're a "reading" christian.

If you actually believe this and you are a true leveller and digger and know that Christ castigates all owners of property into Sheol not with the whip or scourge or scorpions but with the sword itself as the rescuer of orphans and widows then stop fucking trolling /lit/ and get back to assembling […] the last prince hung with the intestines of the last bishop. Anabaptists gotta go old school and start bearing the sword again.

>>21590083
A system of 3 is fundamentally different than a system of 2 in that 2 are competitors, while 3 means a mediator is always present.

>>21590083
>I want to know why early christians got so invested onto this ?
Because they knew the power and limits of spirituality. The holy spirit is a tulpa you have to build yourself and encourage your community of believers to also build(in a community it is also much less likely you will build it wrong, inviting the devil or falling in love with your own reflection). This is the keystone to all of christianity.

You can’t really be an orthodox Christian without having a charismatic life. - Chesterton

>>21590849
I’m not talking about literary censorship. I’m talking about a Christian’s ability to feel the Holy Spirit, or channel it. Does that make sense?

>>21590849
Well? You prods sure love to dodge the question and spew a lot of bullshit

>>21591707
So what you're saying is that protestants worship the devil? That they fear the Jew and project that as hate? Thought so

>>21591727
No I’m not saying that at all. You project a lot of resentment in your retarded responses though. I’m done engaging.

>>21591733
Guess you don't have a lot to say for yourself then. Go put on a kilt about it, fag

>>21591733
Guess you don't have a lot to say for yourself then. Go put on a kilt about it and play an instrument that doesn't sound beautiful about it you fucking fag

>>21591733
Also scotland was a mistake
Do you wear an apron when you accept anal from your fellow fags?

Don’t waste your time with Catholic interpretations . A summary of the orthodox perspective: Dumitru Staniloae

https://youtu.be/mv44Xigl318
https://youtu.be/I7y9cXxJUZ4