/lit/ - Literature

>>21514498
There are also quite a few Spanish Faulknerites like Juan Benet or Javier Marías

>>21514498
I don't know but all latin american writers are dogshit

>>21514498
Something about the content and themes of his works resonates especially with Latin Americans. Faulkner is extremely popular in Japan because his depiction of a post-Civil War South resonated with the Japanese who had just lost World War II - I imagine it must be something similar with Latin America.

>>21514557
Makes sense. The modernization of Spanish-speaking countries has been much more gradual and pained than in the (non-Southern) United States

>>21514557
Who cares about japan? Their contribution to culture is meaningless compared to Garcia Marquez, a truly universal writer

>>21514615
Literally who?

«LATIN AMERICAN»?

>>21514498
>Our anti-Yanqui frens in Dixie

>>21514541
Not even true.
>>21514498
Faulkner is America's Shakespeare.

>>21514498
His the second most popular author in France after Proust. It was just a lone poll though.

Tormented, generational tales of cruelty and miscegenation, of luxury and poverty, the patrician villa and the downtrodden, eyeing it lustily.

>>21514541

i thought this too until i read bolano.

>>21514541
t. has only read Paulo Coelho

>>21514541
Bolano
Borges
Neruda
Marquez
Cortazar
Vargas Llosa
I mean, yeah, Mexicans can’t produce good writers but there’s more countries further south you narrow minded fuck

>>21514498
This dude is probably the best author in the English language. His existence alone justifies that of the USA

>>21514897
>Mexicans can’t produce good writers
Rulfo, Paz (Nobel prize winner), Villaurutia, Arreola, Ibargüengoitia, del Paso, Inés De la Cruz, Reyes (called by Borges the best prose stylist in the Spanish language).
>inb4 who
Not my problem.

>>21514498
Who the fook is William Faulkner

>>21514938
hehe

>>21514862
Bolano is particularly shit.

>>21514938
Basically the father of any south american writer that is not worth a damn

Bump

>>21514922
>Nobel prize winner
Lmao, lol even.

>>21514938
>the past is never dead. It's not even past.
Faulkner had a way with words

>>21514498
The south is the only part of the anglo world that, in its heart of hearts, has suffered millitary defeat. This makes it a halfway between the old and new worlds, much like latin america is, with its blend of ancient, dying enchantment, and the general frontier explosivity that characterizes the rest of the english settler colonial realms. Latin america is like this too for similar reasons. And because faulkner is the paramount southern writer, he's a natural mirror for latin america too.

>>21514897
Other than Bolano all dogshit magical realism. Thanks for proving my point.

>>21516468
>Vargas Llosa
>magical realism

>>21514897
South America is a dump, the Spanish should have managed their colonies better

>>21516471
He has like 3 books that fit the bill of magical realism.

>>21517921
Realism? Yes. Magical? Not really.

>>21514498
>Marquez
Anyone else pick up on how deeply Faulknerian 100 Years of Solitude was? Literally never hear anyone talk abt that.

>>21516468
>magical realism
talk about why magical realism is
>dogshit

>>21514498
I dont know about all of Latin America, but Garcia Marquez (I think) talked about how the american south and the carribean have lots in common and for that reason what faulkner wrote resonated with him

>Legacy of plantation slavery
>White ruling class that dominated for centuries (White southerners, Spanish)
>Importance of religion (Protestants in the South, Catholics in the Carribean)
>A decaying society (both once rich from the slave, cotton and sugar trade slowly decaying into poverty etc)
> the actual climate, humid, hot, etc

>>21514732

>>21514732
Aren't you mexican?

>>21514541
Basado.

Come to think of it, it was like a mashup between As I Lay Dying and Absalom, Absalom!
Only more rape

>>21514732
I wouldn't want to be lumped in with the Brazilians either. Don't get why you want to identify as Catholic though, that's like falling in love with your rapist.

>>21521799
>le victim mindset
Disgusting.

>>21521765
It's good? How's the translation?

I've read As I Lay Dying like twice and I still don't really get it
Maybe the 3rd read will do it

>>21521810
I loved it since my 1st read. Are you 18+?

>>21514897
Mexico has the most complex literature history by far. Borges teacher, Alfonso Reyes, was a mexican. Borges admired Mexico literature. Bolaño dedicated a whole book to Mexico's literature (Los Detectives Salvajes).
You're a total retard.

>>21521805
Be Aztec you pussy. Stop larping that you're eating Christ's flesh and blood. Literally food metaphor: the religion.

>>21521814
I read it when I was 17-18
If I had to guess the point, it was that comprehending our mortality is impossible. Each of the Bundrens seem to have a different reaction to death and Darl who tries the hardest to understand it goes mad. Death really can't be understood
If you have another interpretation though I'm curious

>>21521827
>be something that you're not and that died centuries ago
That's called a larp, Anon. Catholicism, on the other hand, is universal by nature and alive.

>>21514498
Because they are too retarded for James Joyce. They latched onto his cheaper imitation.

>>21522193
>Faulkner
>cheaper imitation of Joyce
Hardly.

>>21521809
Tough for me to say since I’m not a Spanish speaker.
It was very atmospheric. Felt like it was in a scorching hot desert town with a lot of howling dogs, whispers in the wind and the occasional brother/sister incest couple. And wizened old ladies with sad stories.

>>21522251
I liked how it challenges you to pin down what it's about. Aside from being about Pedro Paramo, I guess. As soon as the seeming protagonist sleeps a night in the town, the narrative loses all centrality and you don't know where, when, or who you are. I don't think you go back in that guy's mind for the whole latter half of the book, he's just vanished.

>>21522304
I thought he died. After he spent the night with the brother and sister. I thought they buried him with the old lady in the same coffin.
But it is a trippy book, so it might be that was a dream or hallucination

>>21514498

Faulkner bros, help me out.

I'm trying to remember the Faulkner short story (?) that's written from the pov of a young boy who's father has gone off to fight for the South. The boy plays a game where he constructs the landscape of battles in the dirt. Word begins dribbling in that the South is on the verge of losing. A slave, probably half-drunk, swipes at the boy's landscape, wrecking it. It's a very vivid moment. (I also seem to recall from the notes that there may be two versions of the story?)

>>21522378
"The Bear" from Faulkner's collection "Go Down, Moses."

>>21522331
Okay, probably. I didn't think he was literally being buried in a coffin in that moment.

>>21522389
The Bear takes place well after the Civil War, and the journal-entry "flashbacks" are from an adult's perspective. The story I'm thinking of is set *during* the Civil War.

>>21522208
Easily.

>>21522389
The vanquished

>>21522410
Not quite. Faulkner is his own thing. And if you're talking about stream of consciousness, it's something Joyce took from Édouard Dujardin by his own admission (who in turn took it from someone else).

>>21522426
>When asked about the influence of Joyce on his own writing during the early years of his fame, following the publication of The Sound and the Fury and As I Lay Dying, Faulkner tended to be understandably evasive. In a 1932 interview with Henry Nash Smith, for example, Faulkner claimed, in fact, that he had never read Ulysses, invoking instead a vague aural source for his knowledge of Joycean methods: ” ‘ You know,’ he smiled, ‘sometimes I think there must be a sort of pollen of ideas floating in the air, which fertilizes similarly minds here and there which have not had direct contact. I had heard of Joyce, of course,’ he went on. ‘Some one told me about what he was doing, and it is possible that I was influenced by what I heard’ ” (LIG 30). In a moment of irony that may not have been lost on the interviewer, Faulkner reached over to his table and handed Smith a 1924 edition of the book. . . By 1947, Faulkner hardly needed to be so coy, telling an English class at the University of Mississippi that Joyce was “the father of modern literature” (1974 FAB 1230). By 1957, Faulkner’s pronouncements on Joyce had become fully classical: “James Joyce was one of the great men of my time. He was electrocuted by the divine fire” (LIG 280).
Faulkner was an insecure imitator.
>Dujardin
There is exactly zero percent chance that Faulkner encountered Stream of Consciousness in the writings of Dujardin. He took it from Woolf and Joyce, and it is visible.

>>21522484
>He took it from Woolf and Joyce, and it is visible.
And Joyce took it from Dujardin who was inspired by a monologue in Wagner's Persifal. I don't see the issue, faggot.

>>21522410
The difference is that Faulkner wrote books that are worth discussing beyond the masturbatory nature of the prose and Joyce didn't.

>>21522497
Doesn't make him less of an imitation of Joyce.
>>21522522
Because Faulkner's prose is shit, his fans have to larp about "muh south" and "muh history".

>>21522595
Faulkner is one of the few writers in the 20th century who excels both in prose style and characters. The closest that century got to someone like Shakespeare.

>>21522424
Thank you.

>>21522595
>Doesn't make him less of an imitation of Joyce.
Borrowing a technique that was already borrowed from someone else in the first place is not imitation. By your logic Joyce is a "cheap imitation" of Dujardin.

>>21522618
Joyce can always count on his prose.

>>21522607
Forced meme.

>>21522623
Faulkner can count on his prose and his characters.

>>21522631
Lol. Bloom, Molly and Stephen are better than any of Faulkner's.

>>21522638
A Jew, a slut, and a cuck LMAO which one is your favorite? I bet it's the cuck. None of these have the gravitas of a faulknerian character.

>>21522607
nigga you copy-pasted this from wikipedia

>>21522653
As opposed to retards and mutts and whorish maidens? Which one is your favorite? Bet it's the retards.
Everyone serious about literature knows who Leopold Bloom is. Nobody gives a shit about Darl, Benji, Quentin or whatever other fucks populate Cuckner's novels.

>>21522655
He probably edited it in too lmao.
>[By whom?]

>>21522655
>a common opinion is from le wikipedia
kek I can quote writers and critics with the same view.

>>21522665
>As opposed to retards and mutts and whorish maidens? Which one is your favorite? Bet it's the retards.
lol you used the same reply structure as me. Guess that means you're a cheap imitation of me, right, faggot?
>Everyone serious about literature knows who Leopold Bloom is.
muh serious literature? Faulkner has a Nobel. Where is Joyce's Nobel?

>>21522638
Don't kid yourself, it's getting embarrassing. Joyce is the apotheosis of style without substance. He's a garbage pile of references and associations for their own sake. He's the Wes Anderson of twentieth century literature; the ride is fun and the journey pretty but get a group of people together to discuss anything deeper in his writing and you realize pretty quickly you'd be better off looking at his fart fetish letters.

Faulkner's the better writer. If he's not the century's Shakespeare he's high up there in the running.

>>21522711
Butthurt cucknerfag. Look at all the seethe you put in there. Not a single thing is true however.

>>21522703
>Nobel
Lmao. Funko pop prizes are not the yardstick of quality.

>>21522732
>funko pops

When will you anons come up with a different word?

>>21522751
When you stop obsessing over them.

>>21522732
>le Mickey Mouse cup!
holy cope lmao

>>21522754
You obsess over them more than the 90+% of anons here who don’t own a single one

>>21522757
>delusionalfags are now putting Nobel prize on a pedestal
Sure showed me. Toni Morrison and Churchill are better than Tolstoy I guess.

>>21522767
Ah, suddenly the most important prize for le serious literature doesn't count when discussing le serious literature that you mentioned?

>>21522778
All those Nobels and he is still remembered as Joyce's short sidekick lol.

>>21522726
I don't blame Joyce, he's impressive, but with how little suffering he's been through how could he possibly match what Faulkner brings to the table?

>>21522784
>Joyce
The favorite writer of every 19 year old pseud. He has among the most insufferable fanboys. Very few Joyce fans I’ve interacted with have had a sincere, non condescending attitude

>>21522703
>Where is Joyce's Nobel?
Nature's nobles don't need the Nobel.

>>21522784
By homosexuals like you, maybe. People with taste champion him as a great writer on his own merits.

>>21522801
But still the Modernist sidekick to Real Writers like Joyce, Woolf, Mann.

>>21514498
Nice to see more tribal shitflinging.

>>21522796
>Cucknerfag is talking about fanboys

>>21522796
Joyce is T.S. Eliot for not redditors.

>>21522818
Why’s it have to be an either/or? A reader can live both. Personally only like Joyce’s first two books

>>21522793
>Suffering
Joyce suffered far more than Cuckner did. What was the biggest tragedy in Cuckner's life? Turned down for military because he was too short? Lol.

>>21522824
Too stupid to read Ulysses I guess.

This is what happens when people get into authors like they get into band members and movie stars.

>>21522828
I have though. Nice try

>>21522832
Go tell it to cucknerfags.

>>21522251
and a lot of almas en pena.

Faulknerchads, don't bother.
We already won.

>>21522821
So TS Eliot is now Reddit? That adjective has lost all meaning

I'm sorry, but I've made up my mind. Faulkner is better. That's the end of it.

>>21522844
>anon willfully skips over a word so he can once again get angry over nothing at all.

>>21522832
It’s be funny and typical if anons involved never read either

>>21522846
You have no mind to make up.
>>21522840
Nabokov was also a Joyce pretender to some degree but infinitely better than Cuckner.

>>21522854
Nabokov was just jelly that Chadner won the Nobel and he didn't. He's inferior to both Joyce and Faulkner.

>>21514511
>Juan Benet
"I firmly believe that as long as people like Solzhenitsyn exist, the concentration camps will and must survive. Maybe they should be a little better guarded, so that people like Solzhenitsyn couldn't get out. (...) Nothing is more hygienic than the fact that the Soviet authorities -whose tastes and views on subversive Russian writers I often share- seek a way to get rid of such a plague"
LMAO

>>21522832
An even more retarded discussions than fags than oppose Dostoevsky and Tolstoy like there were rival sport teams.

>>21522854
Joyce was a Dujardin pretender, THOUGH.

>>21522875
You have not read Dujardin

>>21522908
I don't need to. Joyce explicitly said where he took the interior monologue style and academics confirm it.

>>21522913
Ulysses is more than just stream of consciousness you stupid fuck.

>>21522932
So is Faulkner's work, you colossal faggot.

>>21522933
No it isn't. It is joyce imitation and crying about the south. Besides, joyce maybe imitatimg Dujardin but that doesn't disprove my original point.

Fuck happened to the board?

>>21522942
>No it isn't
But it literally goes beyond stream of consciousness. We've established that stream of consciousness is not exclusive to Joyce. That about ends the similarities. Both use a literary device and that's it.

>>21522953
Coping.

>>21522949
I remember when /lit/ used to at least pretend to be mature and non-retarded

>>21522955
Just the truth. A literary device is not the whole point of a Faulkner book.

>>21522960
>half the book is stream of consciousness
>le look these 50 pages are different
This is without even getting into similarities of theme.

>>21522942
>Ulysses is about more than stream of consciousness
>but Faulkner's stuff isn't
Finally you said something so retarded that I can close this thread knowing. Thanks.

>>21522980
The rest of Faulkner is retarded southern larp.

>>21522975
>similarities of theme
What themes are there in Joyce LMAO. How could the themes be similar when Faulkner's themes start and end entirely from considerations about the South? How could you possibly make the argument that Joyce treats his themes better than Faulkner? That's what makes Faulkner so good. But I'm curious to see you make the argument.

Man, I love Steinbeck.

>>21522989
The rest of Faulkner is retarded cuck fetishism.

>>21514498
There are also quite a few Spanish Faulknerites like Juan Benet or Javier Marías

>>21522994
>What themes are there in Joyce LMAO
You are a waste of time.

>>21523048
Says the guy who says Faulkner is nothing beyond stream of consciousness LMAO

>>21522989
The rest of Joyce is retarded cuck fetishism.

>>21523056
See>>21522989

>>21523061
Projection.

>a southern gentlemen writing novels set in the south is now a "southern larp"

>>21523072
Not quite, it's there. He put it there lol

>>21523069
What a waste of time

>>21521840
You're not anything so of course it makes sense that you gravitate to the 'strong horse'. Anyone would and you'll probably be Muslim inside 10 years. It's just ironic that you probably think you stand for tradition and family values when you're the engineered ideal vehicle for rootless urbanism. I'm just letting you know that we've circled back to >>21521799 and you're a raped pussy.

>>21523299
>parents are catholic, grandparents are catholic, great grandparents are catholic, etc
>so I, a descendant of catholics should larp as a pagan of a dead culture for... reasons
I'm not sure you understand the situation.

Can someone please make an argument as to how Joyce can possibly be more thematically complex than Faulkner because I can't see it, Faulkner hits such heights in at least The Sound and the Fury and As I Lay Dying, and then there's Light in August, Absalom Absalom!, Go Down Moses, the rest of his novels, many of his short stories (Barn Burning, The Bear taken alone, Rose for Emily, That Evening Sun, etc), all of which and more have their moments. Considering the quality, volume, and variety of his work I don't think the comparison to Shakespeare is that far-fetched. Who else? And none of those works are known for their beautiful prose or even for what they say about the South, they're known for their psychological profiles of their characters. Like Shakespeare. That's not mentioning the fact that Faulkner's best work is a novel length exploration and extension of a major theme of Macbeth.

How does that argument go for Joyce?

>>21523072
Cuckoldry and Adultery are main themes in Joyce works.

>>21514498
Can't stand Faulkner, can't stand Southern literature, and can't stand Latin American literature.

>>21523403
Saying "I suck dicks" would've sufficed.

>>21523360
Except that Shakespeare was known for his prose.
>All that Shakespeare
Ulysses is literally a long explication of Joyce's views on Hamlet and done far better (and less sensationally) than Cuckner. Here is again an overt example of Faulkner trying to be Joyce wannabe.

As far as Psychological profiles go, Molly is a much better presentation of the female psyche. Truly mythic withput needing any of the "good ol days" southern aristocratic LARP.

>>21523395
Those aren't main themes. They are just part of the story.

>>21523410
Yeah ok butthurt faggot

Cuckner is a Shakespeare Carpet-bagger.

>>21514862
bolano is spanish?

>>21523079
>gentlemen
>gentleman

>>21523463
I'm glad you mentioned that. Ulysses invoked Shakespeare not to borrow and expand upon one of his themes but to force his own onto the text, which is literally exactly what Stephen does, explicitly, in the novel. Try to get from Shakespeare and get to Stephen, not vice versa. It's not that the choice is random, I'm not saying it is, I'm saying it could be anything. The other anon mentioned garbage pile of associations. That's a quote from Friedrich Junger's brother, and it's true. That's not how Faulkner uses it.

>>21523480
Latin American

>>21523463
>As far as Psychological profiles go, Molly is a much better presentation of the female psyche. Truly mythic withput needing any of the "good ol days" southern aristocratic LARP.
A much better presentation of the female psyche than who? Have you even read Faulkner? Where does he present the female psyche?

>>21523518
Stephen's explication of Hamlet is far more interesting than Cuckner anachronistically writing Shakespearean dramas set in the south. Ulysses combines interpretation of Hamlet with the Christian paradox of the trinity to deliver us a Dublin that is truly mythic yet is about the most common of people. Cuckner wants you to believe that south's rejection of some vaguely black looking mutt is some biblical tragedy. Fuck you and Fuck Cuckner.

>>21523527
In As I lay dying. Caddy doesn't get a monologue but she is clearly the main characrer in TSATF and we can deduce her character from all the others.

>Tries to defend Joyce by calling Faulkner “Cuckner”
Kek ironic, considering cuckoldry is a central theme in Ulysses.

>>21523547
Yet Joyce writes with dignity even as he passively reprimands Bloom.

>>21523537
That's your problem. Faulkner isn't making "anachronistically writing Shakespearean dramas set in the south." Your pained reading of Absalom, Absalom! Is not an explication of what Faulkner expressed in his works. It's like me greentexting Ulysses and saying
>hurr the word that everybody knows is love omg so deep xD
Like it's mind-numbingly retarded

8 December 1909: 44 Fontenoy Street, Dublin

My sweet little whorish Nora,

I did as you told me, you dirty little girl, and pulled myself off twice when I read your letter. I am delighted to see that you do like being fucked arseways. Yes, now I can remember that night when I fucked you for so long backwards. It was the dirtiest fucking I ever gave you, darling. My prick was stuck up in you for hours, fucking in and out under your upturned rump. I felt your fat sweaty buttocks under my belly and saw your flushed face and mad eyes. At every fuck I gave you your shameless tongue come bursting out through your lips and if I gave you a bigger stronger fuck than usual fat dirty farts came spluttering out of your backside. You had an arse full of farts that night, darling, and I fucked them out of you, big fat fellows, long windy ones, quick little merry cracks and a lot of tiny little naughty farties ending in a long gush from your hole. It is wonderful to fuck a farting woman when every fuck drives one out of her. I think I would know Nora’s fart anywhere. I think I could pick hers out in a roomful of farting women. It is a rather girlish noise not like the wet windy fart which I imagine fat wives have. It is sudden and dry and dirty like what a bold girl would let off in fun in a school dormitory at night. I hope Nora will let off no end of her farts in my face so that I may know their smell also.

You say when I go back you will suck me off and you want me to lick your cunt, you little depraved blackguard. I hope you will surprise me some time when I am asleep dressed, steal over me with a whore’s glow in your slumbrous eyes, gently undo button after button in the fly of my trousers and gently take out your lover’s fat mickey, lap it up in your moist mouth and suck away at it till it gets fatter and stiffer and comes off in your mouth. Sometime too I shall surprise you asleep, lift up your skirts and open your hot drawers gently, then lie down gently by you and begin to lick lazily round your bush. You will begin to stir uneasily then I will lick the lips of my darling’s cunt. You will begin to groan and grunt and sigh and fart with lust in your sleep. Then I will lick up faster and faster like a ravenous dog until your cunt is a mass of slime and your body wriggling wildly.

Goodnight, my little farting Nora, my dirty little fuckbird! There is one lovely word, darling, you have underlined to make me pull myself off better. Write me more about that and yourself, sweetly, dirtier, dirtier.

JIM

>>21523555
Then where does your surprise at Joyce being thematically greater than Cuckner stem from? Tell us.

>>21523557
More passion there than William "television is for niggers" faulkner.

>>21523544
>I am making my claim from the psychological profiles of people who either aren't narrators or are only narrators infrequently (in works where we only learn about people through individuals that are helplessly "biased"), notably while they are dead, to make my claim
AHAHAHAHHAHAHAH impressive, very nice

>>21523561
> television is for niggers
He was right

>>21523563
>backpedal incessantly after being found out to not have read the cuck you so ferociously defend
Lmao. Lol. Hahahahahahahahahaha.

>>21523558
My surprise isn't surprise, it's suspicion, because the person trying to convince me dismisses Faulkner with the wave of a hand only to sing the praises of Joyce's treatment of themes.

Themes in Joyce feel so fake and urbanite. Themes in Faulkner feel real and wild. Both are good prose writers but Faulkner’s characters and themes give him the edge.

>>21523580
Tell us about your psychological profile of Caddy from the perspectives of the Compsons. Or the one you glean from As I Lay Dying. None to be found. You're talking out of your ass.

>>21523588
Shut up retard

>>21523607
t. Cuck

>>21523589
Are you so stupid to not see Addie bundren as one of the more important characters in AILD? You think that was without psychology? How about you tell us how Faulkner's characters are better then? If we take you on your word Faulkner wasn't good enough to write a truly lifelike female character which Joyce achieves.

>>21523612
No, actually the point is you never read from the perspective of a female in The Sound and the Fury, and Addie Bundren narrates two? three? chapters of 40+? Yeah, you're fucking clueless

>>21523623
You are backpedalling retard. Psychological profile doesn't mean she has to narrate over 100 pages. Anna karenina never narrates yet we know here psychological profile well. There is also Dewey dell. You are fucking retarded.

>>21523627
Backpedelling? You named her. Anna Karenina is written in the third person. With a single exemption TSATF and AILD are only experienced through the lens of a character you fucking idiot

>>21523635
You illiterate fuck. You are arguing that Addie cannot be psychologically profiled because she only narrates a few chapters. Anna karenina is a counter example that psychological profiling don't mean 1st person narration.

So you agree that both Addie and Caddy are shallow unrealistic characters? Without a psychological profile they may as well might be cardboard cutouts. How is Cuckner a good character writer then?

>>21523698
You're coping so hard rn just admit you don't know what you're talking about instead of morphing away from any concrete position.

>>21522860
neenoo neenoo based alert based alert

Faulknerbros... We won

>>21525625
We did

>>21525625
>>21525639
The good guys won.

Based

>>21519741
>that pic
It's amazing how Brazil was literally gifted one of the GOAT political leaders and ended up throwing it all away.

>>21526878
Who?

>>21514747
i kekked

>Cucknercucks never reply with anything substantial
>This is a victory to them
Lmao.

>>21521839
darl went mad cause he went to war

>>21523537
raging southerner detected

>>21527879
>wave the entirety of Faulkner's work off with "hurr he's crying about the South"
>expect to be taken seriously
Pick one