/lit/ - Literature

>>21518186
But Epcot is supposed to be the utopia not disneyland

>Disneyworld is different to any kind of historical fair or festival, because I said
Marxists are so smart, bros.

>>21518186
All postmodernists have a persecution complex

>>21518186
i shot a man reading a zizek book in reno just to watch him die

>>21518204
Yeah that's pretty much it. They're obsessed with "the working class" because they identify with suffering in the abstract and attempt to make a virtue of their feeling, ie they've deified being miserable. That's whey they never actually care for the poor, and why they have no constructive vision.
>hey postmodernanon, look at this chair i just built!
>ah, you see, that nice thing you have there is just an illusion that masks the harsh reality of --ACK

>>21518199
but capitalism. because it was built with money. CAPITALIST MONEY.

>>21518186
>>21518199
I love postmodernists because their critique leads to some borderline eldritch observations about history. Each and every one of them talks about premodern conditions or attitudes with such dedication and immersion, showing how problems emerged in modernity. But just as they're made their elaborate latticework on how things were in check with the likes of sexuality or mental health they just snap to modernist goals and morals. It's funny how postmodernism is always one step away from some kind of bold nostalgia for the medieval, with the period being the taboo it is today, so they have to go back on track with statements like "Of course, oppression was far worse then, rights weren't even concieved etc"

>>21518228
No, the working class are/were centred because of a logical deduction that the Proletariet are the subject-object of history, that is that they as a class had a special historic mission due to the fact that they're subjective need to overcome capitalism would mean the liberation of everyone (objective humanity) from exploitation by capital. Every other class merely places themselves on top and exploits a new lower class, e.g. the bourgoise replace the feudalists only to exploit the proles. However the working class, logically in this Hegelian-Materlist conception of history, have a special role in that their ascendancy doesn't mean creating a new lower class below the proles to be exploited, but the end of exploitation itself and a communist utopia.

It's not motivated by pathos towards workers, that's mere tactics or cant that comes later. Marxist support for the working class comes from a logical deduction within their philosophical system.

Read pic to understand them properly.

>>21518186
>I basically believe this
>as a conservative
A surprising amount of MAGA populism would be at home in postmodernist muh capitalism if you replace the word "capitalism" with "globalism". The proposed solutions are very different, of course.
>>21518213
Kek.
>>21518473
Very insightful, but I would argue that the utopian thinking you're looking at is much further back than the medieval, which is frequently slandered if anything, they just consider capitalism a downgrade.
The most frequently referred to utopia I see is the matriarchal communist utopia, from before patriarchy or property were invented.
>>21518507
>the working class are/were centred
I love shibboleths.
>their ascendancy doesn't mean creating a new lower class below the proles to be exploited, but the end of exploitation itself
Topkek.
>It's not motivated by pathos towards workers
It really shows.

>>21518507
and you posted that because you believe the average twitter wokie goes through the thought process you've just described when he's displaying class hypocrisy or just because you wanted to copy paste this week's class assignment?

>>21518507
Except that BY FAR most people are incapable of believing in a philosophical system. Marxism, again, for the most part, exists because it superficially gratifies a feeling of inferiority. It's not like people read and then come to sound conclusions, anon. It's not like people read. Do you think that Marxists ever "convinced" the masses to revolution via education and theory? No, Marxism was built by stirring up feelings of resentment.

Why are we posting zizek when this is baudrillard territory?
Oh right, /lit/ doesn't read.

>>21518507
>the Proletariet are the subject-object of history, that is that they as a class had a special historic mission due to the fact that they're subjective need to overcome capitalism
Imagine thinking gobbledygook like this is somehow profound or intelligent. I mean, I understand what you're saying, it just lacks all real substance.

>>21518526
Not that anon, but reading post modernists feels like jazz sometimes and anon was just posting bad jazz.

>>21518526
obscurantism is the MO of the liar

>>21518543
reading comprehension is the MO of a smart person.

>>21518526
Really it only requires a belief in the teleology of history, i.e. providence, to parse. You act with future goals and purpose in your everyday life, history until this point, when viewed retrospectively, acted with purpose to produce the now, not very far to take those two facts and think that humanity has future purposes and goals it collectively works towards.

The opposite position would be feigned ignorance of history.

>>21518543
It's not even obscurantism. I can understand it for the most part. It's just insubstantial, nothing is clearly defined so as we can distinguish entities of thought from real entities. Every noun appears to the cautious reader as a simple entity of thought.

>>21518543
Try to be less dumb. There's no virtue in advertising intellectual impotence.

>>21518562
>the inevitable result of history is fulfilling the fever dream of an autistic 19th century kraut

>>21518518
Yes, they make crass logical deductions based on a simple exploiter vs exploited calculus. It's not motivated by pathos, but the ghost of Marx's systematic deduction of alienation and the working classes special historical role to end all exploitation. That's why their supposed pathos is so obviously fake and thin, because it's not what is motivating them.

No need to grasp in the dark at what is behind their ideas and acts when others like Kolakowksi have explained the entire philosophical history of their thought. Simply read books.

>>21518571
Presenting any teleological goal will always trump those who present none, hence why the ghost of Marxism still haunts after its historical failure.

>>21518583
>Simply read books.
Fuck you. This is /lit/. We don't read.

>>21518568
But you see, your complaint of impotence is actually a projection of your own sexual impotence, and bespeaks your failure to sublimate your latent sexual desires into productive goals. You're a lover of words, in other words, a man who has failed to integrate many disembodied archetypal voices into a solar consciousness. Read my book: Solar Consciousness and Sex: a Post-Jungian Reading of Marx. You're ignorant, pal.

>>21518587
If it's "inevitable" then it's not a goal, it's a (cult) prophecy.

>>21518590
Mein gott, your fundamental ideological presupposition is based upon an outdated methodology akin to Dream Psychology. It is not the simple fact that I want to fuck your mother, it is the agony that your mother has already been fucked.

>>21518520
Projecting your own ignorance and unwillingness to engage with the motivating ideas here. All the tactics and rhetoric exist on a scaffolding of systematic ideas. Wallowing in the rhetoric and tactics is mystifying yourself as to what the substantive ground is that those things spring from, without which the tactics and cant would not exist. You're treating the veneer as the thing, rather than the coat of paint that only exists because of the thing it's painted on.

>>21518186
In what way does a theme park mask class struggle?

Everything's there in plain sight.
The working class performs directly in front of you.
Ropes and uniforms sign, so enchantment is a choice.
The land, the machinery, the flow is all financial—material.
It costs money to get in, and it costs money to run.
The park will eventually close and so it cannot be a Utopia.
The park requires maintenance and janitors and painters.
It is formally identical to a seasonal pierside Punch and Judy show, and as significant as a $0.05 bite of popcorn from a single use microwaveable paper bag of dried corn.
But you'd still pay for it, and you'd forget the cost if it meant you could savour the taste, the taste alone.
*Sniff*

>>21518593
No, history is the product of human action, not a hypostatized god in the clouds that acts on humans.

>>21518590
>>21518588
Dumb posts.

>>21518583
whiny faggot, i'd trash your mom's range rover and threaten your dad while he does nothing

>>21518583
sounds like high brow speculation detatched from real people.

>>21518186
Marxist concepts like class struggle aren't postmodernist at all. Marxism on the whole is in some sense fundamentally incompatible with the postmodern ethos that's characterized by distrust towards metanarratives (such as marxism)

>>21518646
A good point. It's a philsophic deduction within a Hegelian model, not an empircal obervation. Hence why you often have lefties speak about capitalism as if it were still a 19th century textile mill in the North of England leading to immeriseration of workers, and not a giant organ of mass prosperity that has uplifted the working class all over the world.

The suppsed utopia at the end, and the postulate that there is a true human nature to be recovered from alienation, have always been very weak. Kolakowksi identifies it with a naive view of ancient Greece popularised by Winckelmann, that Marx thought we could go back to the paradise of Arcadian life (as imagined in the 18th-19th century) by tweaking a few economic levers and we'd all live happily ever after in perfect Greek sophrosyne once the economy was set up just right:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophrosyne

>>21518633
Go back to >>>/v/ stupid toddler.

>>21518675
So do you agree that according to neo-marxists the working class has lost the function of the revolutionary agent and became part of the reactionary establishment while the newest carriers of revolution is a conglomerate of apparently marginalized people that found their place in the intersectional hierarchy.

Are you aware of Igor Shafarevich?

A lot of metanarrative cope in this thread. Reminder philosophy has not moved 1 inch since Schopenhauer. Baudrillard was a retard and basically even restated the Schopenhauer hypothesis without even realizing the "Matrix" (Ex: Unattainable dream supermarket) he talks about is because of the Will

>>21518730
Will? You! Shut: (up).

>>21518721
>Ergot Smoreshorewatch
I'm neither OP, nor have I met this "person".
Go take a shitpost in the Louvre.

>>21518736
Alright, seems like you have a problem only big pharma can solve.

>>21518743
Big Chungus Pharma

>>21518721
I don't think either construction is tenable. The concept of alienation of either human nature or work was wrong. Human nature is intersubjectivly constructed, there isn't a true nature to be recovered absent of exploitation, but rather greater heights of humanity to be built through increased sociability and technologies of society and self. Exploitation is a neccessary inefficiency of production to be minimised by negotation power within a republic, a species of entropy inherent to production, not something that can be abolished to produce a utopia of perfected beings in an exploitation-free economy & society. A strong republican state domiciles capital to work for human ends.

I'm not familiar with Shafarevich, but I would reject naive individualism or Christian existentialism in preference to Fichte's conception of the self as something made with others intersubjectivity within society and the state. Hegel's critques of early Christianity as unable to provide a moral basis for mass society, as opposed to a small religious community, would seem to apply to Shafarevich.

>>21518730
Schopenhauer failed at his deduction of the will as the thing-in-itself. We are aware of our own will phenomenally within time, there is no special timeless noumenal awareness granted by our awareness of our own will, because the awareness of our will is a phenomenal awareness of our own acts of will within time.

All logic systems of the 19th century are intrinsically flawed and we've done nothing to fix them. We've insisted on maintaining them with piecemeal patch-jobs, when we should have abandoned them and started again with something that wasn't inconsistent.

When the Apostle acts, do they Govern the World?

>>21518801
Language is and isn't inconsistent,
and Logic's language-ish wanting what it can't have.
So what you want just isn't;
anon, I, will always be here to contradict, you.

>>21518186
Disneyland is just where kids go to ride roller coasters for a few hours calm the fuck down

>>21518788
>Exploitation is a neccessary inefficiency of production to be minimised by negotation power within a republic, a species of entropy inherent to production, not something that can be abolished to produce a utopia of perfected beings in an exploitation-free economy & society. A strong republican state domiciles capital to work for human ends.
gotta be a chinaman on google translate

>>21518874
Be dumb somewhere else.

>>21518507
>Marxist support for the working class comes from a logical deduction
Literally ahistorical magical thinking and bullshit.
History is shaped by conspiring minorities, not masses.

>>21518513
Granted, I was talking mostly about Foucault's observation which Žižek often cites. He has a focus on the medieval, of all. Still, the point remains - there's some kind of emancipated condition in the past, nearer or farther, where we're emancipated from capitalism. At the same time it's debasing and conservative. I like it because it stands to form a new, grounded model of society whereas contemporaries such as Chomsky carry the same naive idiotism that was present during the French revolution.

>>21518521
Pretty much it looks like.

I hate rich people more than I like food, The philosophy

>>21518473
Postmodernist thinkers are all hypocrites.
"I don't believe in any metanarrative! Anyways... Its like super important that we challenge hegemonic discourses or something"