/lit/ - Literature

>>21441522
Holy fuck he was such a chad

Faulkner on Hemingway:
>"He has no courage, has never crawled out on a limb. He has never been known to use a word that might cause the reader to check with a dictionary to see if it is properly used."

Hemingway on Faulkner:
>"Poor Faulkner. Does he really think big emotions come from big words? He thinks I don’t know the ten-dollar words. I know them all right. But there are older and simpler and better words, and those are the ones I use."

>>21441538
I think Faulkner was the better writer, but Hemingway definitely won this exchange

>>21441538
Faulkner was better.

>>21441545
How? By making a straw man? Faulkner never said that big emotions came from big words in the first place.

>>21441538
>She and Hemingway were once close but she
wanted writers to be her disciples and Hemingway could only do that for a
short while. Many of the writers of this time were extremely vicious in
their remarks. Stein was brutal, but then so was Hemingway. On page 80,
Meyers writes, "Her Autobiography of Alice B. Toklas (1933) stabbed at
Hemingway's most vulnerable points and was all the more wounding because of
the core of truth at the heart of each bitter accusation. Hemingway prided
himself on his courage; Stein said he was 'yellow.' He believed he had
created an original style; she demoted him to dull-witted disciple 'who does
it without understanding it, in other words who takes training.' He boasted
of his sporting skills; she said: 'Hemingway was teaching some young chap
how to box. The boy did not know how, but by accident he knocked Hemingway
out.' He felt he had stamina and endurance; she said Hemingway 'was easily
tired. He used to get quite worn out walking from his house to ours.' He
boasted of his toughness; she said: 'Ernest is very fragile, whenever he
does anything sporting something breaks, his arm, his leg, or his head.' He
thought he was sophisticated and cosmopolitan; she reduced him to an Oak
Park provincial and said he was 'ninety percent Rotarian.'"

https://www.freelists.org/post/lit-ideas/Hemingways-quarrel-with-Gertrude-Stein

Stein thought Hemingway was a yellow coward for not telling the truth of who he was in his fiction, and instead dressing it up to sell it and make it palatable to an audience and his own ego.

I think Gide had similar accusations for Proust in regards to how Proust had hidden his homosexuality in his writing instead of being honest.

>>21441538
>>21441545
That is a thinly veiled attack to Hemingway for screwing over Anderson, not really about his writing. Faulkner was a fan of Hemingway before it all happened. He is primarily calling Hemingway a coward, not attacking his writing.

Obligatory

>Non-Russian readers do not realize two things: that not all Russians love Dostoevsky as much as Americans do, and that most of those Russians who do, venerate him as a mystic and not as an artist. He was a prophet, a claptrap journalist and a slapdash comedian. I admit that some of his scenes, some of his tremendous farcical rows are extraordinarily amusing. But his sensitive murderers and soulful prostitutes are not to be endured for one moment—by this reader anyway.

>>21441578
Nabokov had some exceptionally awful literary opinions. He hated just about everyone who was actually better than him

>>21441538
>>21441545
>>21441550
>>21441569
Faulkner later wrote a letter to Hemingway apologizing for his remarks and Hemingway responded and apologized as well.

Both were jealous of each other. Hemingway was jealous of Faulkner's acclaim and that he had won the Nobel Prize first and Faulkner was jealous of Hemingway's status as a public celebrity. In the end, they both respected each other.

Pic related is a good read if you're interested

>>21441591
Are there rivalries like this today? Everyone is fake nice to everyone these days. Behavior like this would be labelled as le toxic.

>>21441603
Yep. Rowling vs Radcliffe

>On 6 June 2020, Rowling criticised a Devex article's[72] use of the phrase "people who menstruate" instead of the word women.[73] She tweeted, "If sex isn't real, there's no same-sex attraction. If sex isn't real, the lived reality of women globally is erased"

>Radcliffe responded with an essay published by The Trevor Project, stating: "Transgender women are women. Any statement to the contrary erases the identity and dignity of transgender people and goes against all advice given by professional health care associations who have far more expertise on this subject matter than either Jo or I."

It's not much of a "debate" since the science is firmly settled on Radcliffe's side, but a rivalry none the less

>>21441669
Kek “science”

Danny Radcliffe is a Jewish homosexual who hangs out with trannies.

>>21441669
>Why won't you listen to me about this vaccine
>Men are women, women are men, booga booga booga!
Nice try "science"

>>21441669
I mentioned in another thread that trannies do have a brain structure and probably a resulting lived experience that is more like the other sex. There's no reason to assume on that basis, however, that some other treatment couldn't suffice. So-called "Affirmation" is not the only solution. Don't pretend like many critics do not want the best for these people regardless.

>>21441705
I mean you expose a developing fetus and child to endocrine disrupters and then it becomes feminized and later put on estrogen, no shit it is going to show some feminine traits. Doesn’t mean they are a woman at all just a feminized male that is psychologically fucked up.

>>21441669
>Any statement to the contrary erases the identity and dignity of transgender people and goes against all advice given by professional health care associations who have far more expertise on this subject matter than either Jo or I.
It's a delusion. They literally have to tell them lies to they don't kill themselves. It's sort of like the queen and the mirror from Snow White lmao

>>21441723
As far as I know it is the only psychiatric disease where the “cure” is to encourage the delusion. Well maybe it is like a dementia village but in this case we (the whole world) is expected to play along.

Imagine we treated people with OCD, depression, anxiety and other psychiatric issues with the same approach. For example encouraging suicide ideation and depression because we don’t want the patient to think that we aren’t affirming their outlook

>>21441719
Their brain chemistry is more like the opposite sex prior to hormone therapy. Regardless of why (microplastics, etc.), these people need help and deserve it as much as anyone else. Why should they not receive some treatment while AR non-responders get on TRT? That treatment just doesn't necessarily have to be gender transition and muddying the definition of a woman with Jewish word games.

>>21441723
>Pronouns are literally the emperor's clothes
Yep. I'm gonna steal that metaphor.

>closeted trannies derail another thread

>>21441669
>It's not much of a "debate" since the science is firmly settled on Radcliffe's side
Not true because troons are not women like he says.

>>21441754
I empathize with trannies because I think in cases where it isn’t an impressionable child following the attention it involves people who were basically fucked up from chronic exposure to endocrine disrupters (see https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/the-human-beast/201911/gender-fluidity-and-hormone-disruptors).). It’s not a far-fetched theory given the observed lower age of puberty onset in girls, decrease in sperm quality and quantity, overall reproduction collapse and other issues mostly concentrated in western countries where such chemicals are ubiquitous in the household.

I feel bad for these people but the idea that we must affirm their “gender” and go along with it while also encouraging expensive, painful and Cronenbergesque cosmetic surgeries is not only absurd but tragic. These poor people are being pushed into a body horror freak show.

I am certain that in a generation or two we’ll look back at this time in the same way we look back at bloodletting, treating diseases with mercury, uranium in dentures, lobotomies and so on. It is so obviously horrible and an atrocious way of treating a psychological disorder brought on by exposure to endocrine disrupters and/or co occurring disorders like autism. And we’re supposed to think that the litany of comorbidities (anxiety, depression, autism) associated with trannies is because they feel rejected not because they are all manifestations of the same syndrome.

>>21441802
Was in total agreement except:
>I am certain that in a generation or two we’ll look back at this time in the same way we look back at bloodletting
My outlook is far less optimistic. The winds seem to blow towards more pervasive newspeak. I sure hope you are correct (perhaps scientific advancement will allow trannies to genuinely transition and the others to be cured?), but I just don't see how we get there realistically.

>>21441538
>actually realistic disses
>>21441522
>this gay shit

>>21441578
This one sucks because he's wrong

>>21441522
Wtf did Burgess hand in?

>>21441822
Eventually the pendulum swings the other way, but as I said it could take a couple generations.

Then again there are massive amounts of money involved in the manufacturing of commodities and products containing these endocrine disrupters and big business and the lobbyists will drag their feet for as long as possible. Look how long it took BPA to get properly regulated for children’s bottles etc but other food packaging, toys, textiles, furniture and more are loaded with endocrine disrupters despite a wealth of evidence irrefutably showing their harm in reproductive health (among other things). Look at how little evidence there is for depression as a serotonin disorder yet SSRIs are given out like candy. People say trust the science but unfortunately when an idea becomes a paradigm it can be very difficult to uproot it.

So not only do we need to get past this hurdle but we also have the absurd gender issues progressive gang who would fiercely deny that their poster children are the result of chronic toxin exposure and not “born this way rainbow child” or whatever the fuck they think.

It’s not going to be easy but eventually things will improve not just for the greater good but also the treatment and wellbeing of these people who are currently being championed and encouraged to mutilate their bodies and chase a fool’s errand that will never be attained.

>>21441802
Yeah. Transgender reassignment and even hormones are akin to lobotomy.
I agree with >>21441822
The globohomo will win That doesn't mean give up, it means don't go down without a fight.

>>21441861
Most based anon on /lit/

>>21441822
>perhaps scientific advancement will allow trannies to genuinely transition
yea, let's just change their chromosomes, bro.

>>21441872
Why not?

>>21441872
I personally volunteer to be shrunk down to microscopic size to alter every tranny's DNA, cell by cell, until they are all TRULY women! ONWARD BROTHERS, FOR MARX!!!!

>>21441892
kek
>>21441882
kys troon

>>21441882
Because you cannot. Maybe trannies think CRISPR-Cas9 will let me become actual women but at this point it is simply impossible. YWNBAW might be used to insult and antagonize trannies but it is a truth.

>>21441882
Most anons on /lit/ would consider someone that started out biologically male but is now biologically indistinguishable from female not a female, but a male who has converted his cells into female ones.
It's a form of immaterialism.

>>21441897
>Most anons on /lit/
Hume wants a word with you for being a shit cunt, outside.

I left for an hour and this thread devolved from a halfway decent /lit/ thread to whatever the hell it is now

>>21441897
It's also a form of something that is impossible.

So this is just a tranny thread now?

>>21441907
I have a lot of objections against the humean being bullshit that gets tossed around.

>>21441910
tranny hate thread*

>>21441908
>>21441910
Why can't we go one thread without bringing up trannies, bros?

>>21441932
We have a lot of anons on this board who feel a need to overcompensate for their curiosity.

>>21441897
I can chop off the muzzle and curl the tail of a golden retriever and call it a pug but I think we can agree it’s not a pug.

The paradox is that if gender =/= sex then why is it so important for a tranny to superficially resemble a woman? You could argue that it is for acceptance because of social norms but I don’t think that kind of rationalization justifies horrifying surgeries at the taxpayer’s expense.

>>21441861
Don't give me this hopium bro. It's too addictive. Seriously though, I think something would need to change fundamentally - progressives would need an 'out' that allows them to change their practical position without necessarily compromising their moral stance. Suitable alternatives to BPA were found. What is the substitute here?

>>21441872
There would need to be a lot more than that even, but I just don't care. If they can genuinely transition, societal Judaism can be reduced.

>>21441896
Cannot right now. Not the anon you replied to, but I really hope we can offer every single one of them genuine treatment, every last disgusting tranny freak. We won't have to deal with their shit anymore at the point or have a "debate" about fucking bathrooms.

>>21441942
“Homophobes are closeted gays” is a pretty transparent and lame way to shut down discourse and criticism.

I have a live and let live outlook and grudgingly call the trannies I encounter by their “preferred pronoun” simply because of the golden rule and I see no reason to upset mentally ill people (I don’t mean this in a condescending way either). But I draw the line when my kids are being taught to embrace these ideas and when I could be cancelled for saying that I do not perceive a tranny to be a woman.

When something is being pushed this hard don’t expect the pushback to be proportional or even more. Especially if there are claims of scientific evidence.

>>21441945
I agree. I don't think that the current material state of something determines what it is. I'm not a materialist(even though strong materialist arguments can be made against the transience of being and identity)

>>21441947
>If they can genuinely transition, societal Judaism can be reduced.
No, societal Judaism would have then triumphed completely.

>>21441532
Gardner is really an odd character. Can anyone who's read On Moral Fiction tell me what the hell he's on about, because everything I've seen from him seems contradictory

>>21441522
The limpid and spiritless vacuity of this intellectual jellyfish is in ludicrous contrast with the rude but robust mental activities he came to quicken and inspire. Not only has he no thoughts, but no thinker. His lecture is mere verbal ditch-water — meaningless, trite and without coherence. It lacks even the nastiness that exalts and refines his verse. Moreover, it is obviously his own; he had not even the energy and independence to steal it. And so, with a knowledge that would equip an idiot to dispute with a cast-iron dog, an eloquence to qualify him for the duties of caller on a hog-ranch, and imagination adequate to the conception of a tomcat when fired by contemplation of a fiddle-string, this consummate and star-like youth, missing everywhere his heaven-appointed functions and offices, wanders about, posing as a statue of himself, and, like the sun-smitten image of Memnon, emitting meaningless murmurs in the blaze of women's eyes. He makes me tired.

>>21441992
based Bierce

>>21441963
How? If they could actually become men/women and those less trannies could be treated effectively, we would not need to play with the definition of men and women or engage in newspeak. We would return (mostly) to the definition of sex/gender agreed upon basically universally for all of recorded history. Hopefully eliminating microplastics or whatever would cure gender fluidity.

>>21441669
>the science is firmly settled on Radcliffe's side
You will never bear a child you godless degenerate

>>21442002
Is this bait? Holy shit.

>>21441960
Nothing anyone says is going to shutdown the discussion, you fags have long since made it painfully clear with your endless shutting down of all on topic discussion and general shitting up of the board. Still can't help but wonder why people who hate trannies would make their home on a site filled with trannies, probably just because you can never really get banned and you get to hide behind anonymity. Fuck off and stop trying to act like you are being completely reasonable with your off topic discussion.

>>21441754
>Their brain chemistry is more like the opposite sex prior to hormone therapy.
This is a disgusting and bigoted statement and you should consider killing yourself you nazi chud. Men and women are inherently equal and identical, any pseudoscientific evidence you use to claim otherwise just shows what an uneducated troglodyte you are

>>21441897
>consider someone that started out biologically male but is now biologically indistinguishable from female not a female
>now biologically indistinguishable from female
>biologically indistinguishable
Yeah that Adam’s Apple and gangly manish mannerisms are so indistinguishable you lunatic, we can all tell you’re a man

>>21442020
Based contradiction spotter

>>21442030
I mean if there were a magical theoretical technology that really could convert a biological male into something indistinguishable from a female, most people (sane) would consider that person to just be a male that has changed their body.

>>21442037
Yeah I think if I knew a guy had 100% perfectly turned himself into a woman, total indistinguishable complete transmutation with no lingering differences, I would still be disgusted by the idea of fucking him. It's a guy.

There is something magical about women that has nothing to do with their physicality, it's just manifested in or through their physicality. I'd fuck a 5/10 real woman over a 10/10 illusion any day.

>>21442007
Clearly you disagree entirely. I just want to cure trannies entirely and think just posting ywnbaw for the 500th time doesn't get me any closer to that. What would would you suggest then?

>>21442020
>>21442032
Quite the contradiction indeed.

>>21441669
>It's not much of a "debate" since the science is firmly settled on Radcliffe's side
Then why can't even people like former liberal icon Dawkins try to resolve the inconsistencies between transgenderism and transracialism without being shouted down?
If you have to shout down thinkers acting in good faith, not just 4chins incels, then you can't blame critical thinkers for suspecting that reason isn't on your side.

>>21441705
>>21441719
>>21441723
>>21441750
>>21441754
>>21441761
>>21441795
>>21441802
>>21441822
>>21441861
>>21441866
>>21441870
>>21441872
>>21441882
>>21441892
>>21441895
>>21441896
>>21441897
>>21441909
>>21441910
>>21441912
>>21441914
>>21441932
>>21441942
>>21441945
>>21441947
>>21441960
>>21441962
>>21441963
>>21442002
>>21442006
>>21442007
>>21442008
>>21442020
>>21442030
>>21442032
>>21442037
>>21442042
>>21442050
>>21442053
KILL YOURSELVES KILL YOURSELVES KILL YOURSELVES KILL YOURSELVES KILL YOURSELVES KILL YOURSELVES KILL YOURSELVES KILL YOURSELVES KILL YOURSELVES KILL YOURSELVES KILL YOURSELVES KILL YOURSELVES KILL YOURSELVES KILL YOURSELVES KILL YOURSELVES KILL YOURSELVES KILL YOURSELVES KILL YOURSELVES KILL YOURSELVES KILL YOURSELVES KILL YOURSELVES

>>21442037
>>21442042
If a man changes his body and brain into a woman's, he is just the man that changed his body. It is not even the woman who once was a man.
Just as the man who murders is not the murderer who was once a man, but the man who murdered. The change does not negate the previous existence, it is in fact the previous state which is immutable.

>>21442008
As I’ve stated previously I don’t hate trannies rather I empathize with them and do not agree with their treatment nor the celebration of their illness especially in public schools.

>>21442097
>ignores the point and plays the victim

>>21442130
How was I playing a victim?

>>21441999
to whom is he referring?

>>21442223
Oscar Wilde. It's not known if Wilde responded or not

>>21442226
the absolute madman. Bierce could take on anybody

>>21441932
>>21441942
It's a big moral issue whether you accept these crazy (((science experiments))) being performed on children. All experts agree It's a good thing though, and so do most people.

>>21442251
Yeah the normalization of this is crazy. Obviously something unthinkably horrifying is occuring on a daily basis and getting worse by the month but even those that agree it's not right just say "OK BUT CAN WE PLEASE NOT TALK ABOUT IT"
People like Sarkeesian are right when they say "Everything is political." It has to be or those who would politically impose themselves on you will take over every space and assert extreme social and political pressure and force. It's "you' or "them."

>>21442260
How do you think it can realistically be turned around?

>>21442267
Don't think it can, and yes I'm aware that it's just the pathetic display of losers but it's simply right to keep fighting even when loss is inevitable. Continue to voice discontent, protest, and maybe by raw luck you will accidentally contribute to the changing of mind of someone who is influential or who will become influential.

>>21442260
>but even those that agree it's not right just say "OK BUT CAN WE PLEASE NOT TALK ABOUT IT"
And ya what's up with this

>>21442273
It would take an extreme amount of antisemitism since every step of the evil process has been sold as not only good but morally crucial with all dissent being genuinely evil. People were purposefully tricked in order to harm them directly and it could be proven and names named.

>>21442285
>It would take an extreme amount of antisemitism
My ultimate battle..

>>21442285
The most important thing to keep in mind is that all presently existing institutions are non-generative or actively malevolent and destructive, thus all forms of destruction are ultimately generative.

>>21442306
>it can't be the jews, they're always blamed literally every single time because they're such easy scapegoats okay... GEEZE!
>if they're always accused the accusations are actually LESS likely to be true... it's just tired old millenia old antisemitism gawd

>>21442311
Ya but what actually takes down an institution? Convincing people the systems they use as reality benchmarks are actively trying to harm all of them is difficult to do.

>>21442317
Not sure. I'm retarded and I don't have any plans. :-)

>>21441538
based hemingway dabbing on FBItrannies

>>21442332
Hemingway was a troon as was his son.

>>21441669
Is this bait?
The gender/sex distinction is a false dichotomy. Queer theorists attribute to gender what people of the past attributed to personality. Gender roles are reasonable expectations society has for males and females based on human sexual dimorphism. Science is firmly on the chud's side of the argument, but is being suppressed because of the cowardly tendency of institutions to submit to social media swarms.
Pic unrelated.

>>21442368
Their argument boils down to
>it's all made up words anyway so we should be able to say whatever has the most utilitarian benefit. Transwomen want to be called real women and anyways we made up the word women therefor we can determine if they're real women or not, and we determine they are real women. QED
All the additional "philosophy" they use to justify that nonsense is just infinite levels of pure, unadulterated copium.

>topic of the thread: author on author insults
>/pol/tards sneak JK Rowling and tranny bullshit; thread is derailed.
>Jannies are absent as fuck, as usual
Wtf is wrong with this board?

>>21442476
>t. Seething tranny

>>21442515
Notice how you don't see them popping up in the homo and trans deleuze meme threads.
Because human rights "aren't political"

>>21442476
If jannies did any work, this board would be about books and literature, not the same philosophical debates and 'muh greeks'.

>>21442515
>complains about thread being vastly off topic
>gets called “le tranny” by retard
This is your brain on /pol/

>>21442260
>but even those that agree it's not right just say "OK BUT CAN WE PLEASE NOT TALK ABOUT IT"
Only because you bring it up in threads where it doesn't belong. You can talk about this on /pol/ or perhaps in a /lit/ thread dedicated to transexuals in fiction or nonfiction. This isn't the place to discuss this.

>>21442537
Loser.

"Of the flatness [shallowness] of this discussion I choose to remain silent; then that John Stuart Mill is the flattest among the famous flatheads of the 19th century, that can be spoken as an identical equation." - Weininger

>>21442713
This is an anonymous website, you're not supposed to give out your name.

>>21442731

>>21441705
I hate them all but I was in social situation when and this trans shit in conversation. It was mostly a centrist circle, not overly conservative, not liberal, I fucking defended trans rights and gave all the retarded
arguments for it, I am not that knowledgeable but it was enough to upset couple of roasties and the men looked stunned. Lol, fuck these feminist antiwhite women, they wanted globohomo progressivity well they can have all of it, they can have fucking 6.5ft 250lbs tyrone coming into their chaning rooms using their toilets and then going into some womens sporting event and breaking all the records, oh and they want gynecological, well that is fine too kek

>>21442693
Just skim past the posts you don't like. You on topic fags remind me of that scene from Catcher in the Rye

>>21442847
That isn't how this is supposed to work. This is a forum with rules (not to mention bump limits) and it's simply proper etiquette to maintain discussion of the topic at hand without veering too far off the rails. It discourages other people from posting and brings on-topic content nearly to a halt. It's unwelcome and unpleasant and it would be more considerate of you to simply abstain from an off-topic discussion (particularly one you know will inflame the emotions). I came into this thread because I wanted to read about comfy, humorous quarrels between authors. I didn't want to read yet another argument about trannies.

>>21442879
Your meta posting is just as offtopic

>>21441578
He's right desu.
The russkies loves Gogol and Pushkin.

>>21441532
mozart vs salieri in print

>>21442892
I don't want to hear that sort of disingenuous argument. The difference is my posts are making an attempt towards the constructive. I want to stop having this discussion and go back to the topic as outlined in the OP. You, however, want to continue talking about something completely off topic and seem to lack any regard for other people or for etiquette.

>>21442906
We're derailing the thread just as hard right now. You could have powered through and posted artist on artist burns if you like. I actually agree with you though this was a potentially pretty interesting thread lol

>>21441578
>Non-Russian readers do not realize two things: that not all Russians love Dostoevsky as much as Americans do, and that most of those Russians who do, venerate him as a mystic and not as an artist.
He's technically right about that bit. During the USSR era his work was seen as anti-communist. Apparently, Stalin was a secret admirer though, as he read Brothers K. over and over again during WWII for inspiration.

>>21442847
>skim past it
>it's literally 75% of the thread
Do you have brain damage?

>another comfy thread ruined by /pol/ tourists tranny posting

>>21442938
So don't read 75% of the thread.

>>21441669
kek

>>21442879
Unironically and literally: go to Reddit

>>21442965
Predictable. Embarrassing.

>>21441522
this random niche exchange on moral error theory between Richard Joyce and Stephen Finlay was unexpectedly funny. always nice to see moralists get BTFOd
>However, it may be that in advocating these claims I am merely manifesting the blinkering influence of an upbringing in a ‘melting pot made up of immigrants from a wide variety of backgrounds’ [368]—a peculiarly Australasian misfortune that has clouded my capacity to think clearly on these matters. I say this in response to the curious closing portion of Finlay’s paper where he aims to analyse why the moral error-theoretic stance is a ‘characteristically antipodean view’ [347]. At the risk of being impolite, I think his comments are most charitably interpreted as a joke. If one were to entertain such wild ad hominem speculations, one could just as easily attribute to the antipodean error theorist a kind of courage to sincerely question deeply entrenched human beliefs in the face of overwhelming opposition: a courage born of the spirit of those plucky Anzacs confronting a deeply entrenched enemy in the hills of Gallipoli. One might with as much warrant claim that the antipodean error theorist’s refusal to kowtow to conservative forces finds its origins in the tenacious self-sufficiency of the early pioneering families, in the fierce autonomy of Ned Kelly and Hone Heke. But oh what silly arguments those would be.

>>21442969
If you want more rules don’t go on 4chan. You need to expect some derailment and offensive ideas from time to time.

>>21442997
Yes, how dare he expect literature discussion on the literature board instead of transgenderism?

>>21441578
Nabokov is unbelievably based. Another gem from him: "Dostoyevsky seems to have been chosen by the destiny of Russian letters to become Russia’s greatest playwright, but he took the wrong turning and wrote novels."

Can you stupid faggots go one thread without talking about trans shit. I live in what everyone imagines to be a 90% trans city and I see maybe one a month and I work outside and go out all the fucking time. How do they have your brains in such a death grip.

>>21443043
Ya people sure love reading playwrights in comparison to novelists, that totally would have assured the greatness of his reputation (currently in tatters)
>inb4 Shakespeare

>>21443061
>STOP SAYING IT'S WRONG TO PROMOTE CHEMICAL AND SURGICAL CASTRATION/MUTILATION AND PRESCRIPTION DEPENDENCIES AND A LIFETIME OF MISERY TO CHILDREN YOU CHUDS REEEEEEEEE

>>21443067

I'm not saying any of that. I'm saying to get off the computer and go outside you brainless chimpanzee

>>21443064
It's a reference to Dosto's over-the-top manic characters being insanely over dramatic as if his novels were stage plays where the characters have to exaggerate everything immensely so the people in the back can see what's happening.

>>21441669
Thread ruined by a pol faggot, jesus christ.

>>21443076
I understand but I like those scenes in his novels and he's one of the most consistently read, studied, enjoyed, and taught novelists in the world still.

>>21443067
trannies make up 0.000000001% of the misery and mutilation which occur in the world yet its all you insufferable chuds talk about. just keep the obviously psychosexual obsession and insipid posturing to yourself and your containment board please and thank you

>>21442997
4chan isn't some lawless no man's land. When you talk like that it makes it sound as if you're a tourist who's only been on this site for a few years. We have rules here and we have discussions like any other forum.

>>21443076
I prefer Joyce's take
>[Dostoevsky] is the man more than any other who has created modern prose, and intensified it to its present-day pitch. It was his explosive power which shattered the Victorian novel with its simpering maidens and ordered commonplaces; books which were without imagination or violence. I know that some people think he was fantastic, mad even, but the motives he employed in his work, violence and desire, are the very breath of literature. Much as we know has been made of his sentence to execution, which was commuted as he was waiting for his turn to be shot, and of his subsequent four years' imprisonment in Siberia. But those events did not form his temperament though they may have intensified it, for he was always enamoured of violence, which makes him so modern. Also it made him distasteful to many of his contemporaries, Turgeniev for instance, who hated violence. Tolstoy admired him but he thought that he had little artistic accomplishment or mind. Yet, as he said, 'he admired his heart', a criticism which contains a great deal of truth, for though his characters do act extravagantly, madly, almost, still their basis is firm enough underneath... The Brothers Karamozov... made a deep impression on me... he created some unforgettable scenes [detail]... Madness you may call it, but therein may be the secret of his genius... I prefer the word exaltation, exaltation which can merge into madness, perhaps. In fact all great men have had that vein in them; it was the source of their greatness; the reasonable man achieves nothing

>>21443095
Point me to the other 99.999999999% of mutilations being directly targeted towards children at a steadily increasing pace. There are a few. They're also bad. And point to the ones you're not socially allowed to criticize.

>>21442997
my magic 8-ball tells me that you started using 4chan during the 2016 election.

>>21443135

The children being forced to labor in cobalt mines so you can fatly complain on a computer about some dumb bullshit seems like it would attract your attention but unfortunately the media feedlot you exist on cant criticize uneven trade :(

>>21443149
Yes, that's very bad too.

>>21443087
Yes, many popular things are actually bad and of low quality, anon

>>21443149
>>21443095
The difference is that child mutilation is entirely unnecessary and extremely easily preventable. It's a big fucking problem you disgusting faggot.

>>21443211
Sure, but not too many that were popular in the mid 1800's and are still popular today are very low quality. And Dostoyevsky novels aren't low quality. They're popular because they're good.

>>21443218
It's also very new while child slavery in Africa and elsewhere has been around forever. It makes sense it would be discussed more. Consumer electronics shouldn't be manufactured by slaves from materials harvested by slaves though. Everyone can agree on that and yet governments do nothing to stop it despite easily being able to.

>>21443230
It's not reasonable for say, Sweden or even America to comb the entire Congo, every safari, jungle and plain in search of child slaves to save but it is as easy as just... maybe not slicing kid's organs off and crafting neo-appendages out of harvested fleshmeat?
It's not a difficult issue or even something that can be compared to child slavery because the scale and application are entirely different.

>>21443145
2010. Started with /b/ very briefly (as most were introduced to 4chan by /b/) but quickly moved to /ck/ for a while and ignored /new/. I was a grad student at the time.

My point is, the internet has become far more regulated, de-anonymized, structured and so on. The point of 4chan is to offer entertaining and alternative means of communication. It harkens back to the old days of the internet when it was more of an open frontier.

Don’t like it? Go to Reddit or one of the many other more regulated and moderated sites to stay within tight comfortable parameters and make sure people don’t step outside the lines. Why turn 4chan into what everything else is?

>>21443034
Someone mentioned trannies with respect to an author’s feud so it isn’t a far leap to discuss the details of the subject at the heart of said argument.

There are plenty of other threads you can look at if you don’t like where one is going. Why force it?

DH Lawrence's hilarious seething letter to Bertrand Russell:

DEAR RUSSELL,
I’m going to quarrel with you again. You simply don’t speak the truth, you simply are not sincere. The article you send me is a plausible lie, and I hate it. If it says some true things, that is not the point. The fact is that you, in the Essay, are all the time a lie.
Your basic desire is the maximum of desire of war, you are really the super-war-spirit. What you want is to jab and strike, like the soldier with the bayonet, only you are sublimated into words. And you are like a soldier who might jab man after man with his bayonet, saying “this is for ultimate peace.” The soldier would be a liar. And it isn’t in the least true that you, your basic self, want ultimate peace. You are satisfying in an indirect, false way your lust to jab and strike. Either satisfy it in a direct and honorable way, saying “I hate you all, liars and swine, and am out to set upon you,” or stick to mathematics, where you can be true— But to come as the angel of peace — no, I prefer Tirpitz a thousand times in that role.
You are simply full of repressed desires, which have become savage and anti-social. And they come out in this sheep’s clothing of peace propaganda. As a woman said to me, who had been to one of your meetings: “It seemed so strange, with his face looking so evil, to be talking about peace and love. He can’t have meant what he said.”
I believe in your inherent power for realising the truth. But I don’t believe in your will, not for a second. Your will is false and cruel. You are too full of devilish repressions to be anything but lustful and cruel. I would rather have the German soldiers with rapine and cruelty, than you with your words of goodness. It is the falsity I can’t bear. I wouldn’t, care if you were six times a murderer, so long as you said to yourself, “I am this.” The enemy of all mankind, you are, full of the lust of enmity. It is not the hatred of falsehood which inspires you. It is the hatred of people, of flesh and blood. It is a perverted, mental blood-lust. Why don’t you own it.
Let us become strangers again, I think it is better

>>21443303
>As a woman said to me, who had been to one of your meetings: “It seemed so strange, with his face looking so evil, to be talking about peace and love. He can’t have meant what he said.”
She's totally right fuck Russell.

>thread before and after hiding all the trannyposts

>>21443303
I had to wade through so much tranny debate, but this was worth it, excellent one.

>>21441538
Faulkner has the legacy...

>>21443228
They are not good. They are overwrought, paid by the word, pulp fiction. He had this dreadful tendency of placing virtuous people in pathetic situations and then extracting from these situations the last ounce of pathos. This amounts to a cheap trick, a shallow artifice of a story. In short, Dosto was a hack.

>>21443414
They aren't just good, they're great. What do you love?

>>21443218
Weird then how you and your retard friends only ever discuss one then huh

>>21443438
Discuss one what?

>>21443438
It's not weird at all. There are no child slaves in my country but over 1000 children and teens have been horrifically and permanently mutilated by puberty blockers, hormones, and scalpels.

>>21443433
Any of the true Russian greats are miles above Dosto. Tolstoy, Turgenev, Gogol, etc.

>>21441522
I gave 100 in this quiz

https://archived.moe/lit/thread/20123287

Some of them got identified but not all. If you want to know any of the targets just give me the number.

>>21443687
Saying Turgenev is miles above Dostoyevsky is completely retarded and I like Turgenev. Tolstoy and Gogol are also great. Fathers and Sons is great too but still anon you're being ridiculous.

>>21441532
Nice one.

>>21441591
>Faulkner later wrote a letter to Hemingway apologizing for his remarks and Hemingway responded and apologized as well.
wow thats based

>>21441669
>derails the entire thread
Thanks, asshole.

>>21441522
This is obviously banter between good friends

a-all I wanted was... to see literary disses... t-time...to die...

>>21441538
What's the deal with Faulkner's obsession with insinuating that other authors don't know big words? My copy of Winesburg, Ohio includes a rave review by Faulkner of its first edition but towards the end of it he, completely unnecessary, writes that, for the relationship between the weird doctor and the protagonist's mother, there is a Greek word (I guess he meant Agape) which Sherwood Anderson surely has never heard about. Such an uncalled for quip

>>21442067
>mass replier is based
who woulda thunk it.
shame this thread topic has not been maintained. anyone have a good set of filter keywords?

>>21443303
>tick to mathematics, where you can be true
holy based.

>>21443126
>In fact all great men have had that vein in them; it was the source of their greatness;
I mean you could argue that this is precisely what makes Wake so good. The dude's mind fucking cracked open and a liquid of strange origin poured onto the page.

>>21444412
You should filter the word "tranny" and "jew". These /pol/ types pretty much just shit up every thread by accusing everyone of being a tranny or a jew, and talking exclusively about trannies and jews.

>>21441705
The other solution in this case would be violent conversion therapy akin to ABA for autism, both of which don’t work and are crimes against humanity.
There’s no reason to believe that intersex conditions can’t affect the brain just like every other part of the body, and the brain is more “you” than the body is “you” for humans. That’s all.

>>21442067
Kys trannigger

>>21442895
>russkies loves Gogol and Pushkin.
This is true. I took a course in russian way back and the teach had a massive boner for both and hated Dosto.

in Aristotles Poetics
>Sophocles said that he himself created characters such as should exist, whereas Euripides created ones such as actually do exist.

> Rousseau sent Voltaire a copy of his "The Social Contract" and Voltaire wrote him the following:

> "I have received your new book against the human race, and thank you for it. Never was such a cleverness used in the design of making us all stupid. One longs, in reading your book, to walk on all fours. But as I have lost that habit for more than sixty years, I feel unhappily the impossibility of resuming it. Nor can I embark in search of the savages of Canada, because the maladies to which I am condemned render a European surgeon necessary to me; because war is going on in those regions; and because the example of our actions has made the savages nearly as bad as ourselves."

>>21444475
>In 1763, Rousseau published Letters Written from the Mountain, against the Geneva authorities. Here he exposed the "Ferney patriarch" as the author of the anti-religious and anti-Christian Sermon of the Fifty. Voltaire, who denied authorship of this work, was furious. To take revenge, he published the anonymous pamphlet The Opinion of Citizens, in which he protested against the Letters Written from the Mountainunder the mask of well-intentioned bourgeois speaking for the Genevese, and revealed some details of Jean-Jacques' personal life. Until the end of his life, Rousseau did not believe in the authorship of Voltaire and misattributed the pamphlet to the Geneva pastor Jacob Vernes.
lol, lmao

>>21444475
>>21444497
Good article on Rousseau and Hume on CC recently, Rousseau seems like he had something like modern borderline disorder
https://counter-currents.com/2022/05/some-thoughts-on-the-hume-rousseau-philosophers-quarrel/

>>21444502
Voltaire apparently reacted very viciously when Rousseau moved to England. Before Rousseau could even settle down Voltaire was trying to ruin his reputation with Hume.

>>21442693
>This isn't the place to discuss this.
Given the concentration of people on this board in need of help, I think this is just the right place to discuss this.

>>21442997
The website has global and board rules you retarded newfag

Hunter S. Thompson was a piece of shit, but god damn this letter makes me laugh every time I read it. It almost makes me forgive all those times he raped children.

>>21444529
Hence me saying “more rules” dummy. If you want more rules and moderation you know where to go.

>>21441750
This guy gets it. Trans issues are no longer health issues, they are identity issues, and they can no longer be decided by an outsider. After all, you know your identity better than anyone else, right? To deny someone their precious identity is to erase them. Never mind that the whole concept of 'identity' is nebulous at best, and fabrication at worst. It really all goes back to the complete atomization of society, the rise of a consumption market based on taste and emotion (also a recent invention). The whole thing is so chock full of paradox. I hate industrial society.

>>21441538
>older and simpler and better words and those and others and ones and twos and english and french and butter and porridge and
I think Faulkner wins. The shotgun agrees.

>>21443764
You are simply massively overrating Dosto. His novels are trite and cliched and contrived. Remember in C&P where half way through Dosto realized he hadn't made the lawyer villainous enough and he had actually become the hero of the novel accidentally so he staged that ridiculous money planting scene where the lawyer plants money on the woman in full view of someone who hates him who then calls him out for framing the woman later? Amateur hour. Like god damn, eye roll worthy stuff. Also he repeatedly pulls the cheap and tasteless ploy of having a sick and dying child to try and infuse emotion into his stories. Disgraceful and naked manipulation of the reader.

>>21441590
>He hated just about everyone who was actually better than him

At least people read Dostoevsky's books. Most folks have only read Lolita, and forget Nabokov wrote a whole bunch of other books. And to be honest, they wouldn't even read Lolita if it were put out today - it'd be dismissed as a 4chan shitpost, and people would point out how Nabokov doesn't let his story breathe because he's too busy thumping his thesaurus. Imagine making a story about a pedophile boring. The German short story (because like most Russians, all their "creations" come from the superior West) he cribbed it from was far better.

>>21445246
>His novels are trite and cliched and contrived

All Russian literature is, really. Glorified coping/seething about how Western Europe had long left Russia in the dust. Pushkin was the best of the bunch.

>>21445246
>his novels are trite and clichéd and contrived
They're very contrived. I don't think they're clichéd except maybe within his own work you could say it's a Dostoyevskian clichéd but he invented it and imo it's still powerful, especially considering the life he actually lived which contained some crazy contrived-seeming events.
>remember in C&P
Yes. I love that scene. I love the pancake funeral lunch scene where Raskolnikov btfos Luzhin. That being said the conversation between Luzhin and Lebedev, or whatever his name, is the worst part of the book.
>he always has dying children
He lost a child and it was very common back then. He's describing a level of poverty and squalor in which children get sick and die and everything is awful for everyone, which he actually experienced. But okay if I'm thinking on it he may overuse the dramatic death of a child. It doesn't matter though he was an inspired author and wrote great novels. It has to be interesting and engaging and thought provoking, not perfect.

Tell me your favourite Tuegenev scenes compared to some dostoyevsky you hate. Hard mode they can't all be from fathers and sons.

>>21441591
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyTi9v9QPxE

>>21441669
>science settling social issues
Kill yourself you nazi. I bet you're one of those scientific racists who would genocide all of Africa if science labeled them dimwitted.

>>21441522
Not a direct quote, but a dry-humored wikipedia editor who makes (rightfully or not, don't care) Rushdie out to be an insufferable middle-schooler who thinks he is a genius.

>>21445406
That would be irrational. We aren't exterminating all chimpanzees just because they're lower intelligence than humans. As long as they aren't in our countries rioting, raping, and murdering there's no need for removal.

>>21441532
Gardner is right. If Gass had bothered to use his metaphors with more control and more adapted to the subject matter, and above all, if he had took pains to focus on characters and plot and tried his best to create stories that would resonate with other human beings, and only after he was done with that applied his metaphorical-texture, if he had done that he would be a successful artist.

As he is now his work is mostly a curiosity and incapable of generating deep human feelings.

>>21442723
Weininger never ceases to amaze me

>>21445430
If you made this edit then you should be proud of yourself.

>>21443838
In the letter, Faulkner calls him "Brother H"
>Faulkner clarified that he did not question Hemingway’s courage as a man—only as an artist. He told “Brother H” that it was “one of those trivial things you throw off just talking, a nebulous idea of no value anyway, that you test by saying it.” In his responses, Hemingway apologized for his reaction and indicated that he would be open to more of Faulkner’s constructive criticism. Although his novel For Whom the Bell Tolls (1940) would “probably bore the shit out of [Faulkner] to re-read,” Hemingway wanted to know what Faulkner thought of it, “as [a] brother.” He asked that they “keep on writing.”

>>21445430
>reply 3 years before statement
one job

>thread starts out shit
>turns into an fantastic tranny hate thread
>quickly derails back into shit on topic discussion

What went wrong?

>>21445724
All the trannies got btfo'd back to /lgbt/

>>21443303
He almost killed himself over this, I'm not joking, he said so in an interview that it made him suicidal for a night.

>>21441578
Why does it matter what Russians think of Dostoevsky? Beyond the mental image of him being some cultural hero in his homeland, it changes nothing of the quality or content of the work. Dostoevsky was Russian. Ergo he is seen as a great Russian writer. What does it matter if Russia itself disagrees?

>>21441861
BPS, the replacement for BPA is arguably even worse. The precedent of "safe until proven toxic" is going to doom us all.

>>21446742
That's the whole idea behind "The technophiles are taking us all on an utterly reckless ride into the unknown."

>>21441947
>>21446742
>>21446750
>Like BPA, BPS has been found to interfere with mammalian hormonal activity. To a great extent than BPA, BPS alters nerve-cell creation in the zebra fish hypothalamus and causes behavioral hyperactivity in exposed zebra fish larvae. These latter results were observed at the extremely low chemical concentration of 0.0068 uM. This is one-thousand-fold lower than the official U.S> levels of acceptable human exposure. The dose was chosen by the researchers since it is the concentration of BPA in the river that passes their laboratory.

You can't even fall off the grid and escape this. We are all fucked and there is no way out.

>>21446779
And even if this is solved, there's nothing stopping another random development from causing a greater unforeseen event. Ted is eternally right.

>>21443303
>stick to math, where you can be true
Wittgenstein also said something similar. According to him, all of Russel’s books on math should be read and studied and his books on politics and everything else should be bound in tape and no one should read them.

>another interesting thread ruined by trannies and /pol/ niggers

Lord Byron posthumously shit talking Keats (it was claimed Keats died of tuberculosis exacerbated by bad reviews) in the poem 'Don Juan'.
>John Keats, who was killed off by one critique,
Just as he really promised something great,
If not intelligible, —without Greek
Contrived to talk about the Gods of late,
Much as they might have been supposed to speak.
Poor fellow! His was an untoward fate: —
‘Tis strange the mind, that very fiery particle,
Should let itself be snuffed out by an Article.

I bet that greentext went wrong and only quoted the first line.
Anyway, this thread was ruined by contemporary decadence and associated insanity, I have found an article which compiles a better list, it's where I robbed my example from.

https://lithub.com/25-legendary-literary-feuds-ranked/

>>21442312
>post female is unhuman
gay

>>21445364
>Imagine making a story about a pedophile boring.
except Lolita sold well because it wasn't boring. It's literally a caper

>>21441522
>Enter promising thread
>Trannies are mentioned by the 10th
>Entire thread derailed
It's all so tiresome...

dear God, if i get dubs on this post pls kill all /pol/ posters and their moms and dads tonight. and if singles, pls maim and disfigure their children, unlikely as that may be.

>>21443303
one of my favorite letters of all time, you're a bitch for calling it seething

>>21443126
where can i read more of this?
it sounds very much like my own thoughts about Dostoevsky
thanks

>>21444432
>The dude's mind fucking cracked open and a liquid of strange origin poured onto the page.
Anon, this is very good. Do you write much?

>>21441870
yes
>>21441802
>>21441861
i love you

>>21441522
big boobs greta to tater tot nate -

yes send email to -

smalldickenergy @ getalife dot com

these comments appeared on twatter so I am claiming they are both authors

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAv

>>21441522
I remember reading Lenin once he wrote something like this
>Germany has fallen (just like the carrier of Kautsky)
I laughed at it because he always inserted some sort of insult out of nowhere against Kautsky