/lit/ - Literature

>>21419850
No, as it turns out, that phenomena doesn’t exist.

>>21419850
Confederacy of Dunces

BE CATHOLIC, NOT «TRADCATH».

>>21419850

>>21419850
wtf is this shit

>>21419863
An outgrowth of the search for meaning in postmodernity.

>>21419875
*strokes beard*

>>21419877
Nah I'm a faggy femboy that doesn't leave the house without shaving.

>>21419850
>oh no they have beards
>oh no they have strong patriarchal families with lots of children
>oh no they enjoy manly hobbies like having a beer and cigar with your pals
>oh no they don't want women to dress like whores
>oh no they attend the Tridentine Liturgy, ie. the same liturgy used for hundreds of years in the West
How terrible

>>21419861
Tradcaths are the authentic expression of Catholicism. The Vatican II revolution is completely antithetical to the past. Read the Syllabus of Errors and compare it with Dignitatis Humanae. Complete opposite ways of thinking.

>>21419898


«TRADCATH» IS A ZOOMER CULTURAL IDENTITY; BEING CATHOLIC ALREADY ENTAILS BEING TRADITIONAL.

«TRADCATH» IS TO CATHOLICISM WHAT «NAZISM» IS TO NATIONAL SOCIALISM.

>>21419875
>An outgrowth of the search for meaning in postmodernity.
Yes, the Catholic religion, which has been in existence for 2000 years, is purely a "postmodern" phenomenon.

>>21419898
>waaah they had to change policy to prevent the church from sliding into complete and utter irrelevance waah
it's made up anyhow

>>21419894
How does it feel to know that one day you’ll be 40 and you’ll have wasted your youth and destroyed any respect your family had for you just cause you couldn’t grow a spine and bear the responsibility of being an actual man. You’ll probably kill yourself, I hope by some off chance I get to view it. God I hate you faggots

>>21419910
Bro, people call themselves Tradcaths simply to dissasociate themselves from the Vatican II revolutionaries and their cringe boomer-Church, headed by the (supposed) Pope, Francis Bergoglio.
Tradcath means you actually believe in the Catholicism that was passed down to us through the generations, not in this new monstrosity that spawned in the 60s.

>>21419915
The 'catholic religion' is only about 1000 years old. That's when a minor western cleric started throwing his weight around. Before that it was an outgrowth of orthodoxy..

>>21419923
It didn't prevent the Church from sinking into complete irrelevance. The Church has sunk into complete irrelevance, and is now a disgraced organisation which compromises unceasingly on every one of its values.

>>21419915
Yep, internet attention seeking zoomer larping sure is 2000 years old.

>>21419924
I already have kids and they don't seem to mind dad not having a beard.

>>21419915
Just like any other religion anon.
>>21419924
Such a christian thing to say.

>Oy vey! We have to do something about the tradcaths!

>>21419929

>Bro, people call themselves Tradcaths simply to dissasociate themselves from the Vatican II revolutionaries and their cringe boomer-Church[...]

«TRADCATHS» ARE ZOOMERS WHO ADOPT A CATHOLICAL ATTITUDE, BUT ARE NOT ACTUALLY CATHOLIC.


>[...] headed by the (supposed) Pope, Francis Bergoglio.

BERGOGLIO IS A BAD POPE, BUT THE POPE.


>Tradcath means you actually believe in the Catholicism that was passed down to us through the generations[...]


THAT IS CATHOLICISM.

WHY SHOULD CATHOLICS CHANGE THEIR DENOMINATION? IT IS THE ILLUMINISTS WHO ARE THE SECTARIANS: THERE ARE CATHOLICS, AND ANTICATHOLICS.

>>21419850
Double down, go to law school and read Vermuele and Scalia like the rest of them

I actually grew up catholic, went to sunday school, did my communion. I knew since i was a kid the whole thing was bunk. There was never any exotic appeal to it for me, i knew the whole church had ended at vatican 2, that it was filled with mafia and chomos, that the current pope was half a commie.

I dont see how "trad caths" can even function with how far gone everything is.

I had an atheist phase when i was younger too, grew out of it, got into the occult, had a mental break down, now im back to not knowing what to believe. somedays im an atheist, other days i take astrology as real

>>21419929
Ignore that tripfag. He screams for attention with all caps and reddit spacing while writing a mix of schizotier rambles and basic nonsense.

>>21419958
Catholics in america literally support mass immigration

>>21419961
Because the pope has arguably committed idol worship on a number of occasions and they're edging ever closer to blessing the sin of gay marriage. Things shifted heavily in the 60s, stalled, and are now heavily shifting again. Of course there's turmoil and accusations of false shepherding.

>>21419850
Yes, Catholicism, pints, and pipe smoking is based you pr*test*nt mutt.

>>21419961
>«TRADCATHS» ARE ZOOMERS WHO ADOPT A CATHOLICAL ATTITUDE, BUT ARE NOT ACTUALLY CATHOLIC.
No, Tradcaths are the millions of Catholics who reacted negatively to the Vatican II revolution and defined themselves in opposition to the new liberal-Catholic establishment.
Tradcaths trace their roots all the way back to Vatican II, to Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre (pic related), who set up the SSPX in order to resist the revolution.
But ultimately tradcaths are the inheritors of the pre Vatican-II Church, its theology and morals.
To deny a distinction between Vatican II revolutionaries and tradcaths is to be blind.

>>21419850
none because those problems only exist in your terminally online head

>>21419980
trad caths don't, you massive retard

>>21419980
https://youtu.be/_cWyHyP1oQY

>>21419850

I did all of my schooling in Catholic institutions, and then went to a Catholic university, and I never once met anyone who claimed to be TradCath or had any of those traits. I'm convinced that it's almost exclusively an internet meme.

>>21419992
I don't think anyone but the smoothest of brains argues that there isn't a traditionalist movement within Catholicism.
The zoomer bit is about the fact that the psychological need to be seen as "trad" as part of forming your identity is a postmodern phenomenon. We aren't simply talking about actusl religiois traditions here, but the presentation of the self as believer first and foremost, regardless of how one actually practices (or doesn't) a faith.
Zoomer /pol/ larpers banging on about how "trad" they are don't because they need to be observed as a thing, not because they believe anything in particular. They aren't any different from girls posting their crystals on witchTok and talking about hexing chuds.
Perfomative online identity formation. It's got nothing to do with fucking Vatican II.

>>21419924
Who hurt you?

>>21420034
You just haven't presented any reason for me to believe that Trad Caths are more insincere about their religion than anybody else. Just from statistics alone, Trad Cath families have around 6 children on average. Are they having those children because they want to LARP?
>oh but it's just the zoomers
There's nothing wrong with socially disaffected young men finding meaning and solace in the bosom of the Church. Materialism as a philosophy is intellectually and morally bankrupt. The sexual revolution destroyed the harmonious relationship between the sexes facilitated by the Christian patriarchal family. Since the toppling of monarchies and implementation of universal liberal-democracy, welfare statism, inflation, taxation, immigration, and leftist idpol have come to dominate society. IQs are declining, niggers are colonising our countries, and all that society offers is meaningless entertainment and pleasure. To see all of this and turn to traditionalism is perfectly natural.

>>21420129
>There's nothing wrong
I have never said otherwise. The search for meaning perfectly natural.

>>21419915
hes talking about the tradcath phenomenon not the religion itself, stupid ass

>>21419850
> larp as Jesus believer
> dont read the Bible because its hard. read summa theologica and the catechism instead after all God doesnt want you to read His words He wants you to trust other people about what He said
> maybe kneel in front of some statues saying hail mary over and over. or dont, which is actually based
> talk about going to confession. but dont, which is actually based

>>21419923
>they had to change policy
papists say the policies are incapable of changing though. if the policies can change then why not read the Bible for yourself which is actually infallible

>>21419992
all papists worship the pope theres no difference between reactionary and revolutionary beyond thinking the pope should be a reactionary or a revolutionary. it doesnt matter to Christians because the pope has no ability to change Christian doctrine

>>21419850
I'm glad I became tradpresby and not tradcath. My life has improved significantly.

>>21419850
What's the relation between being a tradcath and pipe smoking?

>>21421525
the pipe is a substitute for the priests cock after one becomes too old

>>21420129
>colonising our countries
yes, surely... Catholicism... will prevent immigrants from arriving in English-speaking countries

>>21419929
Then you literally are not a catholic, so you are the opposite of a traditional catholic, but nice try at doublespeak there.

>>21419850


Buffoons like this are less Catholical than virtuous persons who do not regard themselves as being Catholic.


In fact, currently, there are more noncatholic persons who have been more Catholical in their spread of virtue than those who regard themselves as being Catholic; this is, and will be, problematic in terms of theological ultimacy though, when the pervasive, and persuasive, deceptions of the Antichrist cohere in their perfect form.

>>21419857
>>21419862
Ignatius never really explicitly identifies as "tradcath"; he's just autistic about Boethius and hated the Enlightenment.

>>21419939
>The Church has sunk into complete irrelevance
and yet here you are still thinking about it

>>21419850


Buffoons like this are less Catholical than virtuous persons who do not regard themselves as being Catholic.


In fact, currently, there are more denominationally noncatholic persons who have been more Catholical in their spread of virtue than those who regard themselves as being Catholic; this is, and will be, problematic in terms of theological ultimacy though, for when the pervasive, and persuasive, deceptions of the Antichrist cohere in their perfect form.

>>21419961
WHY ARE YOU YELLING

>>21422010
Yes, correct, but why the swastikas?

>>21422098
He always ALL CAPS and generally posts little girls as his image of choice. Why? Some form of apparently Catholic maniacal pederasty.

>>21421783
>Then you literally are not a catholic
How am I not a Catholic? Read the Syllabus of Errors, read the encyclicals of Pope Leo XIII, read Pope Pius IX, X, and XI, read St. Thomas Aquinas, and compare their theology and moral teachings to the theology and moral teachings of Vatican II.
If not supporting the Vatican II revolutionaries means you're not Catholic then all of the Catholic Saints, Popes, theologians, philosophers, kings, and knights prior to VII weren't Catholic either, and it took Vatican II and Qu'ran-kissing Popes to set everything straight.

>>21419863
The project of relativism falling on itself.

>>21419939
Bro. The WW2 had fuckall to do with religion. In the 19th-century they though that religion would not make to the 21st century.

Religion now is more important and a thing in the discourse more than it has been since the French Revolution.

>>21419961
You don't have to actually be a saint to be a Christian. You do know that, right?

>>21422366
> words words words
>>21422010
>more Catholical in their
here lmk if this is papism in practice

>>21422373
>don't have to actually be a saint to be a Christian
what did paul mean by
> 1Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, 2(Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) 3Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: 5By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: 6Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:
> 7To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
...
> 1Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:
> 2Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
...
> Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: 2Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

>>21422877
>words words words
How about an image? This is what you support if you support the Vatican II revolutionaries. Qu’ran kissing Arab worshipping “Popes” (supposedly) who pay obeisance to the same swine that the Crusaders had spilled their blood against in centuries past. The Vatican II sect is not Catholic.

>>21419850
How are you losing multiple years of your life as a tradcath?

>>21419861
BE GENIUS, NOT <<CUMGENIUS>>

>>21422950
Basically anons are seing a ton of Catholicism posting and they cannot fathom that what they wrote off as childish mediocrity is actually the original Church founded by Jesus Christ and the object of the Gospel is a real thing that is not only the basis of the Church but of the soul. The basic fact is true apologetics for Christianity has taken a massive slumber from 500-1900 and its resurgence is causing a lot of people to be upset because they figured divine, infinite love had no inherent structure or system they must adopt to. Rather, men and women alike picture that love is structureless and lawless and this is totally wrong and then they get upset that they can't masturbate to titties, fornicate, and get drunk and so they say the whole religion is lies versus actually intellectually dealing with the fact that it's the only religion left.

>>21422366
The thing I don't get is why "tradcaths" exist, you've already admitted that the Catholic Church is dead and rotting. If you truly believe in the Christian Church, and you can move past the relatively minor schismatic differences between east and west, then the Orthodox Church is the obvious solution.

>>21422971
>The thing I don't get is why "tradcaths" exist
counterculture, contrarianism, any other answer is overcomplicating it. the idea that youth are taking a renewed interest in christianity is confined to extremely fringe internet circles such as this

>>21422973
No, that doesn't make sense, because Orthodoxy is equally as contrarian and counterculture, if not more so, than modern Catholicism, which is effectively liberal and dissolved now.

Orwell on Chesterton et al:

>The most immediately striking thing about the English Roman Catholics — I don’t mean the real Catholics, I mean the converts: Ronald Knox, Arnold Lunn et hoc genus — is their intense self-consciousness. Apparently they never think, certainly they never write, about anything but the fact that they are Roman Catholics; this single fact and the self-praise resulting from it form the entire stock-in-trade of the Catholic literary man. But the really interesting thing about these people is the way in which they have worked out the supposed implications of orthodoxy until the tiniest details of life are involved. Even the liquids you drink, apparently, can be orthodox or heretical; hence the campaigns of Chesterton, ‘Beachcomber’, etc., against tea and in favour of beer. According to Chesterton, tea-drinking’ is ‘pagan’, while beer-drinking is ‘Christian’, and coffee is ‘the puritan’s opium’. It is unfortunate for this theory that Catholics abound in the ‘Temperance’ movement and the greatest tea-boozers in the world are the Catholic Irish; but what I am interested in here is the attitude of mind that can make even food and drink an occasion for religious intolerance. A working-class Catholic would never be so absurdly consistent as that. He does not spend his time in brooding on the fact that he is a Roman Catholic, and he is not particularly conscious of being different from his non-Catholic neighbours. Tell an Irish dock-labourer in the slums of Liverpool that his cup of tea is ‘pagan’, and he will call you a fool.

>>21422971
There have been crises before in the Church, eg Great Western Schism, it doesn’t mean we should now throw out all the Western Saints, theologians, doctors, Popes, philosophers… These men are part of our heritage and tradition.
Plus, they’re actually right about their theology. The system of Thomas Aquinas and the scholastics is much more elegant than the Palamism held by the Eastern Orthodox, which denies divine simplicity. Palamism is pretty much a return to animism and polytheism.
Plus, there is just so much attestation to the doctrine of papal primacy in the Church Fathers that it’s impossible to ignore.
Lastly, Orthodoxy experiences the same problems with liberalism as Catholicism. That’s why you have traditionalist movements within Orthodoxy, calling themselves “True Orthodox”, who have broken communion with all the mainstream Orthodox Churches precisely because they’re too liberal. All the top Orthodox clerics were at the same interfaith gatherings that TradCaths rail against. If Orthodox appear more conservative, it’s simply because they come from former communist countries, which have not been so thoroughly infested with Western decadence as the Western countries have.
The only true and consistent expression of Christianity is Catholicism. Vatican II was a big mistake, but like any crisis it will be resolved.

>>21422970
>is actually the original Church founded by Jesus Christ and the object of the Gospel is a real thing that is not only the basis of the Church but of the soul. The basic fact is true apologetics for Christianity has taken a massive slumber from 500-1900 and its resurgence is causing a lot of people to be upset

>>21423028
>Plus, there is just so much attestation to the doctrine of papal primacy in the Church Fathers that it’s impossible to ignore.


http://www.christianunity.va/content/unitacristiani/en/dialoghi/sezione-orientale/chiese-ortodosse-di-tradizione-bizantina/commissione-mista-internazionale-per-il-dialogo-teologico-tra-la/documenti-di-dialogo/testo-in-inglese1.html

Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity
Joint International Commission for Theological Dialogue Between the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church

"Synodality and Primacy During the First Millennium: Towards a Common Understanding in Service to the Unity of the Church"
Chieti, 21 September 2016

19. Over the centuries, a number of appeals were made to the bishop of Rome, also from the East, in disciplinary matters, such as the deposition of a bishop. An attempt was made at the Synod of Sardica (343) to establish rules for such a procedure. Sardica was received at the Council in Trullo (692). The canons of Sardica determined that a bishop who had been condemned could appeal to the bishop of Rome, and that the latter, if he deemed it appropriate, might order a retrial, to be conducted by the bishops in the province neighbouring the bishop’s own. Appeals regarding disciplinary matters were also made to the see of Constantinople, and to other sees. Such appeals to major sees were always treated in a synodical way. Appeals to the bishop of Rome from the East expressed the communion of the Church, but the bishop of Rome did not exercise canonical authority over the churches of the East.

>the bishop of Rome did not exercise canonical authority over the churches of the East.

>>21423028
>Plus, there is just so much attestation to the doctrine of papal primacy in the Church Fathers that it’s impossible to ignore.

Let's try reading a book on the subject by a Catholic scholar.

>>21423025
If Chesterton wrote that tea was pagan he was obviously having a laugh. It’s also natural for a convert to be more zealous than a man raised in a specific religion from birth. The convert actually had to wrestle with his conscience and make a decision to become Catholic, the Irish port worker in Liverpool just does it for cultural reasons. And when you’re a persecuted religious minority like the English Catholics were you become more self-conscious.

>>21422941
why do i care if some guy in a costume takes a selfie at a cosplay convention here are some relatively normal papists you can tell because theyre kneeling in front of a picture

>Catholics are not idolato--

>>21423048
>>21423058
It’s hilarious you’ve got this all saved up on your computer. Do this a lot do you? Of course the Vatican II ecumenists are going to concede all they can to the Orthodox in order to restore communion. Their whole mission is “Christian unity” at the expense of principles.
There is a sense in which the individual jurisdictions of the Church were more autonomous in the first 1000 years than they are today. The Pope did not appoint every bishop. But this is like saying Chechnya is not part of Russia because it has a degree of regional autonomy. The Pope was the head of the Church, and had power to settle disputes, and this power was seen by everyone to derive from Christ’s promise to St. Peter.
I’m not going to get into an argument about this because it’s ultimately pointless. So many quotes could be given, from figures like St. Maximus and St. Ignatius, who all said that we can identify the orthodox Church by looking to Rome.
Orthodox themselves admit that the Bishop of Rome was given primacy and that the Church of Rome was appealed to for disputes, they just claim the Roman bishop was “the first among equals”, which means nothing.
Again, though, pointless to argue about, because these debates inevitably devolve into throwing quotes at each other.

>>21423142
>No, you can't listen to the actual Vatican on the matter, you have to listen to my private interpretation of the church fathers. Look what Maximus said 600 years after Christ! That proves it!
Laughable.

lol

>>21423161
Robbie won

>>21422941
crusaders weren’t christian

>>21423142
>Christ’s promise to St. Peter.
There's nothing in the text which would indicate Peter's specific apostolic office will have a singular line of perpetual successors.

>>21423161
>is a monarchist simply because it’s cool
Based

>>21423538
Also the early accounts which try to trace the bishops of Rome back to Peter contradict each other, some claim Linus is the first successor of Peter, some claim Clement, etc. There's actually no evidence that Rome even had a bishop in the apostolic era.

>>21423089
That's some intense simping. Do you think I'll get booted if I were to put that in the onlyfan chat?

>>21419855
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6mNnyt21NHw

>>21423568
Meanwhile in Orthodoxy...
https://youtu.be/xVzLEcrcHUo?t=60

>>21423568
>54:05
>When we were renovating this cigar lounge, we had five layers of shag carpet and tile over these beautiful wooden floors, and an awful drop ceiling.
>*lights cigar*
>And when we explain this to people, they say, "Who would do that?" And my answer is, "The same people who invented liturgical abuse."

>>21419857
>>21419862
I'm reading this right now. What am I in for?

>>21422950
Not OP, but I feel like getting memed into Catholicism stunted my personal development and isolated me from most people. I feel like I actually started making something of my life when I stopped coping and engaged with le evil normie culture. Still two years of college that I could have spent making connections, falling in love, having fun, etc. that I’ll never get back.

>>21419850
You guys are so mean. These guys had their entire religion remade during Vatican 2 into some ecumenical hippie nonsense, and it turned from bulwark against liberalism into its accomplice. Of course they are desperately clinging onto whatever remains of slowly disappearing Catholic tradition. Try to have some empathy and at least leave them some stability in their lives, before Francis gives okay to woman priests and homosexual marriages.

>>21423025
So like self-obsessed people of gender?

>>21423618
No. They need to stop living in cognitive dissonance. If their view of Catholicism is correct, then Vatican II proved that Catholicism is false. They need to move on and stop yoking Christ to a false institution.

>>21423608
Catholicism doesn't prevent you from having friends or falling in love or making connections, you fucking idiot. Of all the things you listed, none of them are forbidden by Catholicism except from this:
>having fun
by which everyone knows you meant "having unmarried sex with multiple women whom you never intend to marry".
Stop pretending it was anything other than this. You are an animal and can't control yourself. You're whining that you missed out on fornication in college. That's it.
>le evil normie culture
We all know what you mean by this. You want to watch porn and fuck multiple girls. Yes this is evil, the effects of it are literally destroying white civilisation.

>>21423618
The history or christianity, including catholicism is one of constant remaking. The catholic propaganda of the reformation and enlightenment was how they stood against change and were an eternal truth, even while they were changing in response to those movement. tradcaths just seemed to be people who believed and swallowed that propaganda and now can't seem to believe it wasn't true.

>>21423643
I think what he means to say is his participation in extremely online, parasocial AND homosocial extremist politicial discussions did not get him a gf or a co-ed group of irl friends

>>21423633
And what are they supposed to do? Join one of the thousands protestant sects? They obviously need something to keep them sane in modern world and accepting one council being wrong is easier than tolerating contradictions of various protestant sects. Its obvious that Francis or some pontifical institution is going to declare something that will contradict some "changless" catholic truth soon, so why not leave them alone until then? They are tiny minority who seems to still somehow care about their religion, so why not have at least little pity on them?

>>21423655
Part of it is the apologetic method that Catholics use, which is to undermine any confidence that other Christians have in their beliefs. E.g. you can't know any particular doctrine is true, you can't know what the canon is, you can't know anything at all unless you have an infallible authority define it for you -- and that's us of course. The ones that convert end up internalizing this and thus their faith in Christ becomes completely dependent upon the Catholic institution. But since it also can't contradict itself, blah blah, they end up in inescapable cognitive dissonance.

>>21423668
>and accepting one council being wrong is easier than tolerating contradictions of various protestant sects.
I don't see why that would be the case. A council being wrong, and being fully accepted by the church, completely disproves Catholicism's authority claims about itself. If you believe VII is false then the entire thing is a facade. You have to come to grips with reality, which is that the infallible certainty you've been dependent on is simply not there. As Christians we should follow the truth, not what we want to be true. That doesn't mean you have to throw out history, or the fathers, or any of that. But it means you need to fix what is wrong.

>>21423655
Yes, but the change back then was such that reasonable person could justify it. This is different though, catholicism today is basically a different religion and some people simply cant believe the implications so they cling to the times while it still made sense. Honestly, dont you feel bad for them? The church completely turned its back on them.

>>21420011
>>21420023
Wh*tes are jew jew slaves

>>21423662
Unlike other "extemist" political ideologies, Catholicism is a religion. You go to Church every sunday. You meet the priest, you meet the parishioners, you can meet many young ladies too. Catholicism does not prevent one from socialising, that's one's own personal choice.
As for being rejected for being a political extremist: only a woman would change her beliefs to be accepted in society.

>>21419850
>Any books that show sky-daddy is fake is DED 8) checkmate tradcaths
KEK
Christ is Lord. Stop disobeying the Almighty. Why don't you worry about the perils of hell, which are more real that whatever you're talking about
>>21419875
>Stop searching for meaning! We've progressed past that! We've outgrown it!
KEK

>>21419910
>Im smart guys no really! Don't make a nickname for being catholic! That makes you not Catholic noooooooooooo!

>>21423676
>you can't know what the canon is,
The point is that Protestants treat the Bible as if it fell from Heaven or was dictated by an Angel when in fact it was a long historical process (within the Catholic Church) which led to the formation and ratification of the canon. The Protestant essentially believes that a bunch of heretics and blasphemers were responsible for the compilation of his scripture, which is absurd on the face of it. If they were heretics and idolators, why do you trust their compilation of scripture?

>>21423676
Protestant sects diverged from the mainstream christianity hundreds of years ago, and they are so deformed nowadays that it requires impossible amount of self-deception to think that they are correct. Catholicism, on the other hand, maintained at least semblance of continuity until 1960s so it requires less self-deception to think that its still the same religion as before. But its only a matter of time really.

>>21423596
a funny story

>>21423676
>A council being wrong, and being fully accepted by the church, completely disproves Catholicism's authority claims about itself
No it doesn't. First of all, the Church is infallible only in this sense: she will never BIND all believers to believe something false. To bind means to impose canonical penalties, eg. excommunication, for the rejection of a belief. But Vatican II was not a binding council, it offered no anathemas.
Next, many Catholics believe Vatican II was a robber council, and that the Popes were not true Popes. This is the sedevacantist or sedeprivationist position.

>>21423718
>Next, many Catholics believe Vatican II was a robber council, and that the Popes were not true Popes. This is the sedevacantist or sedeprivationist position.
Those are not catholics. Those are people who cannot accept reality.

>>21423700
The Reformed view is that

1.) The scriptures are inspired in themselves, that is, their canonical status is objective and they are not "made canonical" by a human authority. We only recognize what they already are.
2.) We act within the tradition of the church, and are only concerned to remove the errors that it has gained over time. So the tradition of the church's recognition of the canon is valid to us.
3.) This is a fallible knowledge of the canon, but that is acceptable, because it is the same way that the Jews knew the canon. They had no infallible definition that, for example, Isaiah is canon, but they still knew that it was. So too for us.
4.) The only "infallible" definition of the canon within Roman Catholicism is at the Council of Trent in the 1500s in response to the Reformation.
5.) There was a longstanding tradition prior to this that there was a distinction between the Hebrew canon, and the deuterocanon, and that the deuterocanon was not authoritative regarding doctrinal matters. You can find this borne out in various fathers, Eastern and Western, such as Jerome. You can also find Catholic theologians up to Trent stating this viewpoint (e.g. Cardinal Cajetan).
6.) We recognize this tradition to be valid and in continuity with the Jewish tradition prior to Christ.

>>21423707
You are simply evaluating the situation through Roman Catholic presuppositions. But Roman Catholicism, as it is understood today, is false. So where does that put you?

>>21423643
It was more getting out of a cycle of autistic self loathing and paranoia that the religion, while not explicitly promoting, inevitably seems to lead to, based on honest-to-god disturbing testimonies about Therese of Liseux, St, Benedict, Therese of Avila, Mother Theresa, Francis of Assisi, etc. All of whom are apparently models of holiness according to the church btw.
Tried killing myself about 4 times in a year before I stopped caring and moved on with my life.
After leaving the church I started working out, working harder, and caring more about how I treated other people instead of living in my head all the time wondering if what I was doing or who I interacted with was an occasion for sin or scandal.
No, I don’t watch porn. No, I’m not fucking girls left and right, but I’m definitely more comfortable going out with people I might not agree with 100% on everything. I no longer have to categorize people as “safe” and “unsafe” to interact with or love because of whatever social media brainwashed them into (the same issue I had)
Reconversion is still on my mind a lot, but honestly between wierding everyone out with the Catholicism grift and being reduced to a paranoid autist praying constantly in his dorm and navigating this shitty world while having a decent time in the process, I honestly choose the one that doesn’t make me lose my mind from internet-induced schizophrenia.
Here’s hoping more zoomer kids realize this and hop out the meme before it’s too late.
Also nice projection with the sex part.

>>21419939
>The Church has sunk into complete irrelevance
Lmao wtf are you talking about, religion and its presence have increased tenfold due to general hopelessness and alienation caused by capitalism

>>21423718
>But Vatican II was not a binding council, it offered no anathemas.

"[Vatican II] has invested its teachings with the authority of the supreme ordinary magisterium, which ordinary magisterium is so obviously authentic that it must be accepted with docility and sincerity by all the faithful, according to the mind of the Council as expressed in the nature and aims of the individual documents."
--Paul VI, general audience Jan. 12, 1966

"The obligation by which Catholic teachers and authors are strictly bound is confined to those things only which are proposed to universal belief as dogmas of faith by the infallible judgment of the Church."
--proposition condemned by Pius X in the Syllabus of Errors, sec. 22

>>21423738
Maybe its visibility has increased, but it’s still more irrelevant because the subtle institutional control it had is gone. You might see it more often, but it’s much easier to ignore.

>>21419980
There is literally nothing wrong with this

>>21423732
>they are not "made canonical" by a human authority
Retarded. This is like saying a mathematical theorem is objectively true so there is no need to give a proof for it. Even if it's objectively true, still there has to be a way for us TO KNOW THAT IT IS TRUE.
You are talking about the ontological nature of the canon, but everybody else is talking about the epistemological element.
>This is not a fallible knowledge
It's not knowledge at all. How do you trust that the canon compiled by the Church fathers is the right one when you consider them to be idolators and heretics?

>>21423707
What continuity? We can show quite clearly that the early church, in the first few centuries, was aniconic and condemned image veneration. Catholics and Orthodox do not have any continuity with this. Who "diverged" exactly? It is better to admit that errors are possible, that they can enter and become widespread, as this is the simply reality of the matter.

>>21419934
Exactly. I was viewing some Giotto paintings recently and they look nearly identical to Orthodox icons. The Latins continued to break away from Tradition with the Renaissance and their art hasn't looked the same since.

>>21419970
You are the perfect candidate to start reading the Traditionalist School and it's perennial philosophy.

tldr; revealed religion is a vehicle for nondual attainment

>>21423761
>Retarded. This is like saying a mathematical theorem is objectively true so there is no need to give a proof for it.
Read my entire argument as a contextual whole. But a text is either inspired by God or it is not. This is objective and irrespective of whether you recognize it.
>Even if it's objectively true, still there has to be a way for us TO KNOW THAT IT IS TRUE.
>You are talking about the ontological nature of the canon, but everybody else is talking about the epistemological element.
>It's not knowledge at all.
I've already refuted concept that an infallible definition is necessary to know. How did the Jews know any particular OT book was canon? They had no infallible definition, but they still knew, and Scripture confirms that they knew (Matt. 21:42, 2 Tim. 3:15). You must address this point. If the Jews could know, then your epistemological claim is wrong.
>How do you trust that the canon compiled by the Church fathers is the right one when you consider them to be idolators and heretics?
I don't think that being wrong on this or that point disqualifies you from being right on others and I am not fit to judge the soul of another. There is much good that they did, and many things on which we agree with them, but we are not their slaves -- there is an authority above them. Nor are they a monolithic whole who all teach the exact same thing. That view is simply mythology. As I said, we work within the tradition, we are catholics.

>>21423732
>But Roman Catholicism, as it is understood today, is false.
So are protestant sects. Few days ago I read interview with some woman from Lutheran church from my country on a news site. She was salivating at the idea of first female bishop, who can help her church continue teaching "changless truth"(her words). And my country is actually considered to be conservative and christian. This case is pretty much representative of protestanism. There is no doctrine too ridiculous that you wont find a protestant preacher proclaiming it. Catholicism simply needed few centuries to catch up and disprove itself. Neither of those seem to be bothered that they not only contradict historical practice but their sacred text too.

>>21423762
I wrote semblance of continuity. The word semblance does a lot of work there.

>>21419970
>I had an atheist phase when i was younger too, grew out of it, got into the occult, had a mental break down, now im back to not knowing what to believe. somedays im an atheist, other days i take astrology as real
You sound like a stable human being

>>21423738
You must be joking right? These are just US statistics.

Priests:
>58,000 in 1965; 37,000 now
Ordinations:
>1,600 priests ordained in 1965; 450 in 2002
Seminarians:
>49,000 in 1965; 4,700 in 2002
Nuns:
>180,000 in 1965, 104,000 of which taught in schools; 75,000 in 2002, 8,200 of which taught in schools
Monks:
>3,400 men studying to be Franciscan priests in 1965, 84 in 2000
Catholic Schools:
>Almost half closed since 1965
Marriage:
>Fallen by one-third; number of annual annulments (Catholic divorce) granted risen from 338 in 1965 to 50,000 in 2002
Mass attendance:
>3/4 Catholics went to mass weekly in 1958, now 1/4.
Morals:
>Only 10 percent of lay religious teachers now accept church teaching on contraception. Fifty-three percent believe a Catholic can have an abortion and remain a good Catholic. Sixty-five percent believe that Catholics may divorce and remarry. Seventy-seven percent believe one can be a good Catholic without going to mass on Sundays. By one New York Times poll, 70 percent of all Catholics in the age group 18 to 44 believe the Eucharist is merely a "symbolic reminder" of Jesus.

And it keeps declining. What "revival" are you talking about?

>>21423792
>This case is pretty much representative of protestanism.
It isn't. Protestantism is not a singularity. And these people have abandoned every historical tenet of Protestantism. I have no communion with them and I am not responsible for them.
>There is no doctrine too ridiculous that you wont find a protestant preacher proclaiming it.
People are free, legally, to do such things. Our duty is to constitute faithful churches. They are not of us.

>>21423761
>How do you trust that the canon compiled by the Church fathers is the right one when you consider them to be idolators and heretics?
One more thing I want to say about this: even when I think one of them is wrong -- I think they are a sincere follower of Christ. And I believe that Christ forgives our sins. I am not condemning them.

>>21423783
The Jews had an institutional religious authority with the real presence of God in the tabernacle (remind you of something?). These authorities passed down their authority with the laying on of hands (remind you of something?) and "sat in the seat of Moses" (remind you of something?).
Your whole doctrine is absurd. For the vast majority of human history barely anybody could read, and even now most people are only semi-literate. The idea that God would set everything up in a book is tantamount to child-neglect.

>>21419861
be a real christian (Orthodox) not papist
>https://youtu.be/q5rGHviyiqU

How did Catholics get away with inventing so much stuff that isn't in the Bible? Perpetual virginity, purgatory, papacy, etc.

>>21423805
Look, I dont know your church and dont want to attack it, but at the very least your bible most likely has less books than those of christians before the Reformation. That alone refutes all protestant sects which claim sola scriptura.

>>21423827
Simply having a teaching office, or in this case priests, does not mean that anything they state is infallible. Nor is there any record that they had any infallible teaching on the canon. There is no such thing. They even lost the Scriptures at some points and had to reform their practices once they were found again (2 Chron. 34:14-21). You are merely positing a hypothetical that you cannot demonstrate.
>The idea that God would set everything up in a book is tantamount to child-neglect.
Sola scriptura does not mean that Christianity is formed from a book. It means that Scripture is the only infallible source of doctrine and practice which we possess in the post-apostolic era.

>>21419855
Cope

>>21423853
>but at the very least your bible most likely has less books than those of christians before the Reformation.
This is false.

Cardinal Thomas Cajetan (papal legate to Augsburg to oppose Martin Luther)
Commentary on All the Authentic Historical Books of the Old Testament (1532):
>Here we close our commentaries on the historical books of the Old Testament. For the rest (that is, Judith, Tobit, and the books of Maccabees) are counted by St Jerome out of the canonical books, and are placed amongst the Apocrypha, along with Wisdom and Ecclesiasticus, as is plain from the Prologus Galeatus. Nor be thou disturbed, like a raw scholar, if thou shouldest find anywhere, either in the sacred councils or the sacred doctors, these books reckoned as canonical. For the words as well of councils as of doctors are to be reduced to the correction of Jerome. Now, according to his judgment, in the epistle to the bishops Chromatius and Heliodorus, these books (and any other like books in the canon of the Bible) are not canonical, that is, not in the nature of a rule for confirming matters of faith. Yet, they may be called canonical, that is, in the nature of a rule for the edification of the faithful, as being received and authorised in the canon of the Bible for that purpose. By the help of this distinction thou mayest see thy way clearly through that which Augustine says, and what is written in the provincial council of Carthage.

>>21419896
t. 16 and has no friends

>>21423841
Perpetual virginity:
>You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus...
>“How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?”
(If Mary had not committed to remain a virgin forever this question would make no sense, since she could easily have had sex after the encounter with the angel.)
Purgatory:
>That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
(This clearly implies purgatory since God would not send people to hell for idle words)
Papacy:
>Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church.

In the final analysis it doesn't matter whether it's in the Bible or not because we also believe in Church tradition.

>>21423867
1. Perpetual virginity is not simply about Mary having sex, but about the status of her hymen. She is said to have been a virgin before, during, and after birth. The "during birth" or her "in partu" virginity is that Christ was born by a miraculous means that did not damage her hymen. This is the actual dogma.

2. That verse would not imply purgatory, as purgatory is a state prior to the final judgment at which the soul immediately enters after death if it still bears venial sins which must be punished.

3. Nothing about the verse in Peter creates a bishop with universal jurisdiction who will have a perpetual line of successors, etc.

>>21419855
Tradlarping, I'm afraid, very much does exist, and is done by a good portion of this board

>>21423875
>1. Perpetual virginity is not simply about Mary having sex, but about the status of her hymen. She is said to have been a virgin before, during, and after birth. The "during birth" or her "in partu" virginity is that Christ was born by a miraculous means that did not damage her hymen. This is the actual dogma.

Tell me you're a virgin without telling me you're a virgin

>>21419855
>It exists trust me I see it all the time on my online messaging boards!!!

>>21423841
Monotheism is one giant larp, so that isn't hard

>>21423862
Council of Rome and other councils, which defined apocrypha as canonical, trumps Cajetan, who is just one scholar. Also your quote leaves out quite a few, like Esdras.

>>21423891
>Tell me you're a virgin without telling me you're a virgin
That's the actual dogma. Go look it up. Icons of Mary have three stars on her cloak to represent the three aspects of her virginity.

>>21423902
That is not an ecumenical council. The only definition which rises to that criteria is at Trent. If you study the history you will find that the deuterocanon was always in a disputed position. Some fathers regarded them as canonical and other held the position given by Jerome, e.g. Athanasius, Cyril of Jerusalem. There was only a consensus regarding the books present in the Hebrew canon.

>>21423856
Obviously not anything they state is infallible. But the point is they had a visible institutional religious authority which the people were to submit to. This institution was based upon succession through laying on of hands, and traced its roots all the way back to Moses, just as we trace ours to Peter. The nation of Israel was directly guided by God in the same way that the Catholic Church is.

>>21423903
Listen, you're just a closet fag. No one who doesn't larp and doesn't have the urge to suck dick is this invested in these kinds of uninteresting details

>>21423689
>only a woman would change her beliefs to be accepted in society
i'll bet you're real quiet when the soicorp you work for emails everybody that it's "pride month" or "latinx heritage month"

>>21423918
I do not believe all of this. But this is a historical fact that this is what "perpetual virginity" means, and it is the current dogma in Catholicism and Orthodoxy. I'm not sure why you're even arguing with me about it.

>>21423925
Yes, and you just mistook bullshit doctrine and false piety for actually living your beliefs. This is in fact the very thing that your own god accused the Pharisees of, of being autistically invested in bullshit doctrine no one cares about

>>21423916
So what was going on when they lost the Scriptures and then had to find them again and realized how erroneous their practices were? I'll quote it for you:

>While they were bringing out the money that had been brought into the house of the Lord, Hilkiah the priest found the Book of the Law of the Lord given through Moses. Then Hilkiah answered and said to Shaphan the secretary, “I have found the Book of the Law in the house of the Lord.” And Hilkiah gave the book to Shaphan. Shaphan brought the book to the king, and further reported to the king ... Then Shaphan the secretary told the king, “Hilkiah the priest has given me a book.” And Shaphan read from it before the king.

>And when the king heard the words of the Law, he tore his clothes. And the king commanded Hilkiah, Ahikam the son of Shaphan, Abdon the son of Micah, Shaphan the secretary, and Asaiah the king's servant, saying, “Go, inquire of the Lord for me and for those who are left in Israel and in Judah, concerning the words of the book that has been found. For great is the wrath of the Lord that is poured out on us, because our fathers have not kept the word of the Lord, to do according to all that is written in this book.”

Again, I'd like some kind of evidence that there was an authoritative ruling on this matter, by what authority, which an Israelite could appeal to. When Paul tells Timothy that he has known the Scriptures since childhood, what earthly authority is Timothy appealing to in order to justify this knowledge, which according to you must be based on an infallible teaching.

>>21419850
>losing multiple years of your life
How?

>alienating people who love you
More like the opposite. Unless the people who love you are vehemently anti-Catholic you will grow closer to the people who love you. Catholicism encourages strong tight knit communities, family values, and friendship.

>>21423939
I just told you that I don't believe this thing. Stop arguing with me over nothing.

>>21423903
>>21423875
interdasting

>>21423831
Great video, thanks for sharing.

>>21423910
Trent recognised them too. They were never officialy disputed, it was always just opinion of few people at a time.

>>21423959
Yes, I know how this trick works. Fathers who agree with X = consensus. Fathers who don't agree with X = just an opinion don't worry about it.

>>21423965
I didnt mention any fathers or consensus. I said officialy. This isnt about consensus, this is about the official teaching of the catholics. Also you still havent elaborated upon Esdras. Cajetans quote doesnt mention it, so does your church acknowledge it?

>>21423910
Yeah St. Jerome disregarded the deuterocanon, that's why he included it in the Vulgate. When you don't view books as canonical you translate them and include them in the Bible.

>>21423590
He isn't wrong

>>21423983
Read this: >>21423862. It explains the distinction that is being made. And we do publish Bibles with the deuterocanon. I can even point you to Cyril of Jerusalem who tells catechumens to *not* read the deuterocanon and to instead only read the properly canonical texts.
>>21423982
>I didnt mention any fathers or consensus. I said officialy. This isnt about consensus, this is about the official teaching of the catholics.
And you have nothing that is "ecumenically binding" until Trent. Even if Trent accepted something from earlier, it did not become "ecumenical" until Trent. Why did a prominent Catholic Cardinal and leader of the Dominicans (Cajetan) not know what the canon was if this was the official ruling on the matter?
>Also you still havent elaborated upon Esdras.
Jerome, prologue to Ezra:

>No one ought to be bothered by the fact that my edition consists of only one book, nor ought anyone take delight in the dreams found in the apocryphal third and fourth books. For among the Hebrews the texts of Ezra and Nehemiah comprise a single book, and those texts which are not used by them and are not concerned with the twenty-four elders ought to be rejected outright. But if anyone should oppose you on the basis of the Septuagint translation (whose very variety of texts indicates that its copies are corrupt and damaged, nor can it by any means be claimed that what is diverse is true), have him take a look at the gospels. There are many passages in them which are said to be from the Old Testament but which are not found in the Septuagint translation ...
https://www.tertullian.org/fathers/jerome_preface_ezra.htm

>>21419850
So what exactly is wrong with this? I seriously don't get it

>>21424018
>And you have nothing that is "ecumenically binding" until Trent.
This seems like an awfully convenient excuse to reject anything from pre-Reformation Christianity that you do not like. Deutercanon was accepted officially and there was consensus for it too. On the other hand, you have few lone voices who often didnt reject it outright, and merely gave it less importance. Using this method you can redefine Christianity at any moment and declare any novelty as "changeless truth". I just have to ask, why even bother twisting yourself into pretzels like this?

>>21421525
They mean sucking penis

>>21424091
>This seems like an awfully convenient excuse to reject anything from pre-Reformation Christianity that you do not like.
It is the fact. A local council is just that, a local council. It may be elevated later, but before that it is local.
>Deutercanon was accepted officially and there was consensus for it too.
If there are prominent dissenting voices then there is not a consensus. You are simply constructing one by excluding the view you disagree with.
>Using this method you can redefine Christianity at any moment and declare any novelty as "changeless truth".
I am not doing this, I deny that there was a consensus either way on the deuterocanonical texts, because there isn't one. How many church fathers need to state that Tobit is not properly canonical in order for a consensus to be broken? Any objective idea? I don't think there is one, as your justification is post-hoc.
>I just have to ask, why even bother twisting yourself into pretzels like this?
There is nothing to twist on my end. You are the one who must run the facts through your ecclesiastical filter to massage them into the result you want.

Every time I think about becoming Catholic I just about the church I have to pass every time I go to work. They have a digital display outside and one of the slides is a rainbow flag that says the accept everyone. I looked online to see what their mass is like and I see a couple old people watching what I assume are their grandchildren wailing away on an acoustic guitar and drums. That is the Church. They accept evil and they won't even pretend reverence to God.

No man would want any association with that.

>>21424125
And before anyone tries talking about the more traditional sects within the Church, they're just as guilty in their own ways. They should be out slapping these people around for being such a disgrace to God but they sit by and let it happen because they're weak. The entire Church is feminine by nature.

>>21424125
Surely the Successors of the Apostles and the Vicar of Christ on Earth will do something to stop this abuse (lol)

>>21423752
>it’s only a pastoral council!
is one of my fav copes

I am glad i actually touched grass and got rid of all the neurosis of this internet memes like christianity or poo religions that are forced here constantly. Sorry i will not read your gay 3000 years poo/jew cope

The Young Pope is a great series.

>>21423910
St Jerome later recognized his initial mistake and accepted them. Since his opinion was so influential for you, do you accept them now?

>>21423841
Where do protestants get the idea that everything has to be in the Bible?

>>21423802
tradtards still believe demographics will save them

>>21424414
This does not seem to be true. There is a distinction being made in which the OT canon is in two tiers, the proper OT canon from which doctrine can be derived (the Hebrew canon), and the deuterocanon (literally "second canon"), which is read only for edification, but which is generally compiled with and cited alongside the other. Jerome citing the deuterocanonical texts (even referring to them as scripture) does not mean that he rejected their deuterocanonical status.
>>21424426
We believe that the Scriptures are the sole infallible source of doctrine and practice in the post-apostolic era. If something in tradition (fallible) is contrary to the Scriptures, then it is wrong. Likewise no authority has the ability to create new dogmas from nothing and bind the consciences of the faithful to believe them.

>>21419850
>Graduate degree in Liturgical Theology
redpill me on trad cath grad degrees
what schools?

>>21424517
I know “Dr.” Taylor Marshall got his degree from a school he helped found, so in his case he basically gave himself a degree.
With the rest I’m guessing they took online courses, regurgitated church doctrine, and got a participation paper with “PhD on it”

>>21424524
im gonna get a phd in tradcath

>>21420034
>>21420129
"Socially disaffected young men" going tradcath are just garden variety /pol/tard pussies who need to be granted permission by some based and redpilled shadowpope to hate on fags, wammin, the hebrews, etc. Simple as.

>>21424613
(And of course, like all homofascism, it all just come down to fucking little boys.)

>>21424524
>he helped found a school twenty years before he was born
so this is the power of traditional catholicism…

>>21419961
They are American protestant converts who think it can save them

>>21419850
They are being written right now or will be written soon.

The Trad Cat meme hasn't been around long enough yet to really do its full damage yet. A few of us who have had our lives changed already can see where this is ultimately going, and we have already gotten off the boat, but for most it will take more years before the "trads" end up going into formal schism with the Vatican and all of us zoomer white guys realize we were being sold a LARP.

>>21424149
kek

>>21423943
>Unless the people who love you are vehemently anti-Catholic you will grow closer to the people who love you.
You try spouting "le based rad trad Pius XIII Taylor Marshall" shit at your local Novus Ordo parish and tell me how it goes. Or try telling any living woman about this stuff for that matter. If your parents aren't already religious traditionalists of some flavor your family life will get hard too.

Social connections get very difficult to maintain outside of the tiny online bubble of fellow rad trads and that one based friend you met at a Latin Mass.

It all feels like a noble sacrifice until you eventually hear arguments that make you realize modern Christianity itself (even based and redpilled radtrad-dom) has deep doctrinal errors and theological derivations compared to the beliefs of the Early Church.
Then one morning you wake up and realize you have nothing left...

Many such cases...

>>21424750
>Religious people have stronger marriages
>Religious people have more children
>Religious people forge strong tight-knit communities
>Religious people are less likely to feel depressed and alienated
>Religious people put more emphasis on pro-social values such as patriarchy, family, community, friendship, compassion, and virtue.
What you're saying is pure propaganda. Even if you became a TradCath and were isolated (because, for example, you lived in China and there were no Catholics around you), nothing in Catholic moral teaching says you can't forge connections and friendships with non-Catholics. This idea that by converting to Catholicism you'll become a social pariah with no friends is utterly without basis.

>>21424856
But there’s this sense that you have to constantly excise whatever’s contrary to the faith to be a True and Honest(TM) Trad. Read Kempis’ Imitation of Christ, he literally says to cut off friendships and shut up unless talking about God. It creates this sense of unease that whatever you do that doesn’t have to do with salvation is a waste of time and therefore a sin. You literally cannot enjoy life unless you’re on your knees.

>>21424892
Kempis was a priest it’s his duty to always think about God and live piously. Not everybody is called to that life. I don’t see how you can’t both be religious and also enjoy life’s secular pleasures (assuming they’re not sinful).

>>21424856
Adopting this traditionalist mentality in real life and speaking about it will indeed make you a pariah among most people, particularly if you are one of the based zoomers who tend to adopt radtrad-dom. Do you think girls of a similar age range are going to want anything to do with this? Absolutely not.

In a world of people who think baby murder is ethical, yes, being a rad trad will make you a social outcast if you start to talk about it too much. I still admire Trads trying to bring some light to a Godless (and quite frankly loveless) world, but my lived experience is indeed that I missed out on social opportunities and alienated myself even from most normie Catholics. Being religious, to any real degree these days is a difficult and lonely road.

The "tight-knit communities" you are talking about are also just a privilege for an increasingly small number of people around the Western world. Really just a handful of SSPX schizos in Kansas these days and maybe the Mormons who follow that one loser in the forest somewhere.

Giving a normal social life up felt like a worthy sacrifice until the moment I realized I no longer believed in Catholicism.
Then I just desperately wished I could have not sacrificed the friendships, relationships, romances, all to be a cringe LARPer who thought he was gonna change the world...

>>21419896
How is alcohol consumption manly? Like all drug use it's a major cope.

>>21425014
>>21424750
I think there is a difference from being a sperg and being highly religious. I know Milquetoast cuckservatives who ruined their lives saying basic bitch things while people who say things about women that make the Taliban blush are able to wear a dozen masks and move through society with ease.
t. born into Catholicism

>>21424856
It’s not propaganda, it’s the lived experience of hundreds of young men living in mourning

>>21425014
>>21425125
>>21424750

This is the fundamental difference between LARPing and true belief. The LARPER will give up at the first sign of hardship, while the believer has his beliefs so integrated into his self that to give them up would be impossible. The latter will bear any sacrifice, while the former will change his beliefs as soon as the next based Twitter/Telegram trend takes off.

>>21424426
Where else would Christian dogma come from?

>>21419970
>astrology AND atheist
goddamn the worst of both worlds.

>>21423841
>Perpetual virginity
There's no reason to believe Mary had kids after Jesus unless you misinterpret the "brothers of Jesus" thing way out of context.
>Purgatory
Still being able to get extra grace after death is implied in Maccabees which the Protestants threw out.

>>21423862
Some cardinal using wordgames to try and mitigate the onset of the Reformation =/= infallible Church teaching

>>21425014
>>21425125
>it's Jesus' fault I'm a friendless schizo

>>21425246
Motherfucker the reason I flamed out was because I tried so hard to be a “true-believer.” I prayed until my knees were purple, I slept on the floor until I had chronic pain and cramps all over my body, I let myself lose my mind until I found my belt looped around my neck and hanging from a closet. Your faith is a suicide that lasts a lifetime.

>>21425014
>I realized I no longer believed in Catholicism.
do you still believe in Jesus? because Jesus matters and the pope is a fag
>Then I just desperately wished I could have not sacrificed the friendships,
yes, sacrificing friendships for Jesus is not what Jesus wants
> romances,
no, you should only date to marry a fellow Christian, otherwise you risk divorce
> all to be a cringe LARPer who thought he was gonna change the world...
if youre really a Christian, you will change the world

>>21419934
Did the CIA greek patriarch tell you this?

>>21419970
I always wonder what the fuck people think “atheist” means that they think being an atheist and believing in astrology are necessarily incompatible.

>>21425314
>friendless schizo
Not anymore
And anyways, I think it’s more the fact that puritanical religious doctrine of any stripe is pure brain rot for self-loathing OCD autists

>>21425388
>>21425372
>it's a protestant seethes about their retarded actions and blames god then becomes atheist episode
>"But I am actually Cath--"
In your actions you are culturally closer to Protestants, Catholics born into the faith just are. They don't have this weird insecurity about it, as they were born into it and that is that.

>>21425372
>>21425388
This sounds schizo as fuck and extremely out of bounds for what most any religious person reasonably expects to get out of or put into their religion. Whatever you're describing is simply not a religious problem the way most people who are religious would think about it.

>>21425372
>I prayed until my knees were purple, I slept on the floor until I had chronic pain and cramps all over my body
Jesus never told you to do that, but
> One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. 6He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks. 7For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself. 8For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's. 9For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
>>21425246
the real difference is 1 Cor 13. the larper is in it to be seen of men the Christian worships the god of charity by being charitable whether or not he will be seen of men

>>21425388
>puritanical religious doctrine
yeah, well, some people think its puritanical to not commit adultery

The only way you could alienate people who love you by taking the tradcath path is if they are judgmental idiots and not real friends. Or if going tradcath turns you into a douche for some reason, but it's entirely possible to be tradcath without being insufferable.

>>21425403
Read the saints and tell me this isn’t the kind of piety the church promotes.
Mother Theresa lived in doubt and misery for most of her career and all to moderately reduce the suffering of hobos.
Therese of Lisieux and Catherine of Siena basically starved themselves to death.
St. Benedict’s rule glorifies the presence of “holy tears” while his monks were praying, implying that weeping was endemic in his community.
These aren’t marks of holiness, they’re symptoms of chronic depression. Except these people don’t do the obvious and live a reasonably pleasant lives because they had this internalized notion that hurting themselves constantly is actually what their God wants.
This is authentic spirituality according to these people.

>>21425401
I don’t blame God, I blame myself for taking a juvenile approach to religion and letting it become an autistic obsession instead of a lifestyle.
Sometimes I wonder if it’s possible to reconvert in good faith but honestly, I don’t trust myself enough not to hurt myself again.

All religion sisters are poor souls who understand nothing. Imagine believing we have free will in 2022. The amount of mental gymnastics you have to do to tell yourself your religion is real, and the one truth is absolutely astounding. If it was so many years ago I’d understand but now it’s pure cope and an inability to find alternate solutions to modern day issues. Appealing to historical devices simply because they’ve been around is very ignorant too. I don’t hate you pathetic bunch but you do disappoint me. Humanity needs to go somewhere new and you’d rather drag us back into the darkness. Fucking cowards and weaklings.

>>21425463
download alexander scourby reading the KJV and listen to it over and over all day long until you know every story, thats the kind of autistic obsession with religion that isnt self harm. also listen to this guys sermons about Jesus in this or that book and sermons about books and stuff to help you understand what youre listening to http://www.faithfulwordbaptist.org/page5.html

>>21425014
>Do you think girls of a similar age range are going to want anything to do with this? Absolutely not.

Absolutely, if you are confident.

>being a rad trad will make you a social outcast if you start to talk about it too much.

It depends how you phrase things. When people start talking about abortion just smile and nod instead of going on a rant about how everyone is a sinner. Think about it: you want to convince them that abortion is murder and calling them sinners will definity drive them away instead of bringing them closer to god. When it comes to sensitive topics, you want to be slow and strategic. You want to be warm, friendly and open to hearing opinions you strongly disagree with.

A good Christian should make a point of hanging out with sinners. You should put yourself in environments that are full of darkness and be a shining beacon of light. Jesus Christ didn't shy away from Mary Magdalene even though she was a prostitute and that's the attitude you should take. There is no reason for a Christian to miss out on pagan parties, just make sure not to sin while you're there.

>>21425246
I wasn't just LARPing at the time though. At least I didn't think I was. I was willing to endure much hardship for what I believed.

>>21425105
>"You must just be a loser lol"
No actually, the problem is with the institution and the religious dogma itself, not me.

>>21425125
100% this. I'm just left asking where to go from here now.

>>21425505
Willingly placing yourself in a situation where there’s an occasion for temptation is sin

>>21425520
Isn't temptation everywhere? Just opening your computer could tempt you to write "boobies" in the Google search bar.

>>21425524
That’s different than going to parties where women already have them practically hanging out.

>>21419855
It does, but rarely outside of the internet.

>>21425532
Is it? At a party, there's no guarantee the girls will accept to be touched. Most likely you would get no action even if you tried to get some. On the internet, you are guaranteed to see images of naked women if you search for them.

Of course if you think the temptation would be too high you shouldn't put yourself in that situation, but you should really work on your self control. It is possible to hang out with sinners without sinning, it just takes practice.

>>21425505
>>21425382
Thank you for trying to help bros, but this is some of stuff I erroneously believed back then, and I have seen firsthand how misguided it really was.

There is this widespread myth among various Christian sects that if you just hang out with the non-believers and show your good conduct and what a super Christian you are, friends and family members will convert and be saved by how amazing the Christian example you set is.

I was strategic, I was warm, I was friendly, all that. Invariably when you get to the "hard sayings" part of the Christian faith, you can be as congenial and pleasant as you want to be; the majority of non-Christians will take it as an opportunity to hone in on some moral flaw you might have (however major or minor) and then expose you as a hypocrite.
This is the attitude 90% of the time.

>>21425382
>do you still believe in Jesus? because Jesus matters and the pope is a fag
Jesus was perhaps a prophet, but no single human being can be God

>>21425314
Jesus would object to so much about the "Rad Trad" movement. Being worshiped as God being foremost

>>21425449
By all accounts people say Mother Teresa was a pretty joyful person. I think it was either Ignatius of Loyola or Padre Pio who once heard that a guy was schizo-torturing himself in confession and explicitly told him to cut that shit out.

>>21425551
I have never felt it was my place to quasi-coercively "persuade" people into "switching" to "my team." If there is a relevant discussion I will talk about it, but being pushy about specifics isn't really the average person's job even if it's the m.o. of Mormons and certain Evangelicals.

>>21419850
I challenge everyone of tradcath to come to Italy

The priest spoke about the supernatural origin of thunders at my grandpa's funeral

>>21425569
>Being worshiped as God being foremost
Jesus literally asks his followers who the people think he is, and they think he isn't God, and then Jesus asks his followers who he himself thinks Jesus is, and Peter says God, and Jesus says he is right.

>>21425589
>Jesus asks his followers who he himself thinks Jesus is, and Peter says God, and Jesus says he is right.
definitely not a later addition

>Everyone is a child to god
>i'm God's son
>WHOA...

>>21425602
>definitely not a later addition
Then you've moved the goalposts from what Christianity actually believes over to some hypothetical textual theory

>>21425449
Very true. They will gaslight and tell you that there is some ever so slight difference between spiritual "scrupulosity" and the kinds of spiritual austerities undertaken by the saints. But if (Rad Trad) Catholicism is true, and a human being can go to hell for a single unconfessed session of masturbation, the proper response of the human heart in this kind of universe would be this kind of self-effacing obsession with sin.

>>21425578
>By all accounts people say Mother Teresa was a pretty joyful person
Perhaps she possessed a degree of inner-joy unknown to us, but no, she died miserable while even doubting the existence of God I believe.

>heard that a guy was schizo-torturing himself in confession and explicitly told him to cut that shit out.
But where is the line between scrupulousity and genuine compunction and regret?
Fr. Novus Ordo tells me you can basically have gay sex every day and not become too rigid in thinking you even need to go to confession (and they will get offended when you ask to go to confession, believe me)
Fr. Rad Trad will then turn around and tell you if you die in mortal sin (i.e. missing mass intentionally on Sunday) you are libel to go directly to hell for eternity.

The people like me who went through spiritual torment in this system are not the problem. The problem lies with the errant spiritual teachings of the Church itself.

>I have never felt it was my place to quasi-coercively "persuade" people into "switching" to "my team."
All those who explicitly reject the Catholic Faith go to hell right? There is no Salvation outside the Church.
I truly believed that (albeit with a touch of nuance) and my attitude was not so lax about the prospect that my departed love ones were burning and I might have been able to help them. It ruined me.

>>21425372

I think your problems extend far beyond Catholicism.

>>21425372
Exactly. People like this guy >>21425636 love to gaslight and pretend as though the problems exist soley within the individual, not the institution.

>>21425589
>"You are the Messiah, the SON, of the Living God"
I am God's son too. So are you. Not in a literal sense as though He sired us.

>>21425640

The Catholic Church doesn't expect every single person to become a saint, because that's not possible. How is him being a self-torturing schizo the fault of the church? No priest would ever tell him to do that, and the scriptures don't either.

>>21425652
>The Catholic Church doesn't expect every single person to become a saint
If the purpose of the Church isn't to get people into heaven then what the fuck is the point?

>>21425652
>The Catholic Church doesn't expect every single person to become a saint
"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."
Matthew 5:48

In Catholicism a Saint is someone enjoying the Beatific Vision. Everyone is ultimately supposed to become a Saint, according to God's plan.

Ultimately, God's Active Will is that everyone accomplishes that process in this life rather than Purgatory, although in His Permissive Will He allows people to fall short of that.

That is the Catholic teaching on the matter.

>How is him being a self-torturing schizo the fault of the church?
Maybe because most of the spiritual role models it gives us fall into this category themselves. If Catholicism is true, these kinds of mortifications aren't illogical at all, but are in accordance with God's Will.

>>21425635
God is not some autistic legal judge with salvation. The parable of the vineyard workers is essentially about this and I can't presume to know who goes to hell or does not.
>Fr. Novus Ordo tells me you can basically have gay sex every day and not become too rigid in thinking you even need to go to confession
I have never seen a priest say this. Also focusing too much on "Novus Ordo" vs "Traditionalist" is a very convert way of thinking. People who have been Catholic their whole lives just refer to "Novus Ordo" as "mass" and "Traditionalist Catholicism" as "Latin mass."

>>21425640
There are multiple cradle Catholic anons saying this kind of OCD shit is weird and it's only some ex-convert trying to portend it as a universal experience. Whose opinion is more valid?

>>21425551
>the majority of non-Christians will take it as an opportunity to hone in on some moral flaw you might have (however major or minor) and then expose you as a hypocrite.
right, thats the hardship you need to be ready to endure

>>21425671
>God is not some autistic legal judge with salvation.
The Traditional Catholic understanding of Salvation paints a very different picture though.

>I have never seen a priest say this
It is a hyperbole meant to illustrate the laxness of most priests in the face of what is termed grave sin by Traditional Catholic understanding, which causes intense spiritual anxiety for the believer.

>Whose opinion is more valid?
Converts know the Faith better than 90% of Cradle Catholics and thus we are in a better position to eventually understand that the Church has made many theological derivations and errors over the years. You are almost attempting to disown the History of the Catholic Church.

Ultimately your perspective is spiritually respectable of course, and more sane than someone who has actually immersed themselves in Church Tradition and History, but I think that alone should be a red flag as to what kind of conclusions studying Historical Church Teaching will actually lead a person to draw.
If the daily experience of a mainstream Catholic is less schizotypal than the average Rad Trad convert, then fine, but Novus Ordo Catholicism is so divorced from the Historical Catholic teaching on things that I am not really sure you could understand the level of rancor it puts your soul through if you sincerely believe it.

I became interested in traditional Catholicism for years and still am and I never bothered anyone about it and kept it to myself
It's something personal to me and so I don't feel the need to go around and announce it
I've never felt that I had any hills to die on, the opportunity just never came up
One time I said I preferred the Tridentine mass, my aunt didn't know what that was
I still go to a normal Catholic Church with my family on Easter and Christmas

>>21425698
I would happily endure that hardship once again if the religion was actually true, but it isn't.
It's just everything in service to a false dogma.

>>21423596
a depressing story

>>21425635
>There is no Salvation outside the Church
thats not what the Lord said. dont follow men, men are weak, follow the Lord

>>21425707
is charity real
> Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, 5Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; 6Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; 7Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
> 8Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 13And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

>>21423831
I am sick of all this fucking "debunking" this and "refuting" that. I just want to get along with my brothers in Christ without this.

>>21425730
That dogma traditionally means that all men are saved by the graces bestowed on the world through the Catholic Church. SO in the Catholic understanding, Protestants can be saved, but just through the graces that are merited by the Holy Catholic Church.

It is pretty explicitly stated that those who reject Jesus though cannot attain eternal life.
Whether that means rejecting Jesus' example or rejecting the specific belief in His blood-atoning sacrifice made in propitiation for original sin (another Christian error) is anyone's guess.

I favor the former view now if any.

>>21425702
>Converts know the Faith better than 90% of Cradle Catholics
This is some extreme presumption to assume that someone whose Youtube recommendations pipelined them into Taylor Marshall and Chad Ripperger videos trumps someone who has gone to mass their entire lives.

And both the Catholics and Orthodox don't think that their Church is some kind of sterile museum. The medieval Church, and the Council of Nicaea, and the Apostolic age were all different contexts on their own as well.

>>21425748

>>21420129
Catholicism is a force behind globalism, not a bulwark against it. The existence of nick fuentes or pat buchanan doesnt negate that fact

>>21425741
I have no idea how to get away from this shit online.

>>21425735
I will do whatever God wants me to, provided I know He wants me to do it

>>21425749
>Youtube recommendations pipelined them into Taylor Marshall and Chad Ripperger videos trumps someone who has gone to mass their entire lives.
It is accurate though. If this is you >>21425652 you are proving it yourself. That was a really common theological error that I could really only see a Novus Ordo Catholic making.

I feel like I'm getting too uppity about Rad Trad dogma now though. You are right in one regard, the Church is not a sterile museum. But you also can't undo all the theology that came before you like I see a lot of Catholic Priests preaching.
Either way the point is that the Rad Trad stuff is harmful to a person's mental state, but it isn't harmful because it is some fringe position, it is ideologically consistent with Church History whereas Novus Ordo Catholicism is not. The most radical, spiritually debilitating dogmas are the ones supported by Church History.

>>21425792
The real Noah's Arc

>>21425892

OP's pic made me want to go get a masters and PhD in tradcathism
thanks

>>21423723
I'd say those are the only Catholics.

>>21426018
The dissonance arises in the heart of the believer because the Bible contradicts itself

>>21425505
>There is no reason for a Christian to miss out on pagan parties
lol the entire purpose of your religion is to oppose and shut down said "pagans" and their "parties"

>>21425892
I'm not that anon, and that anon was just referring to canonized saints with miracles and not "saint" as in anyone in heaven.

The only thing that "changed" with Vatican II is jut liturgical things and non-Catholics and Catholics being allowed to marry. "Trad" is also literally just referring to a different liturgical style and is not some kind of separate denomination despite etrad larpers trying to stir up division.

>>21419910
>TRADCATH» IS A ZOOMER CULTURAL IDENTITY; BEING CATHOLIC ALREADY ENTAILS BEING TRADITIONAL.
This. Unhealthy stuff.
t. Zoomer

>>21419850
here's a book for ye faggot

>be me
>wee young lad back in day
>mummy is a British cunt,
>papa is an IRISHMAN
>wee wee lephrechaun Guiness Guiness anus fart in Dublin irishman
>me papa takes me to the church, ye old IRISH CATHOLIC
>priest touches my wee wee, makes me feel all sorts of way, I like ti in some sense, I am a wam yam wee lad but father paddy sure is moist in the mouth
>ye boi grows up and marries, a fine young lady, one lady who produces many kids for me, ye trad catholic lifestyle
>I pose, pretend for the bois in the pub, pints of Guinness, the foamy top reminds me of my cummy and father paddy going yummy as I jizz in his gummy
>gotta put on that front for them fellas though, no faggot irishman trad Cath in this town, I do my best
>every time I fuck my wife, I pork her in the asshole, cumin on the rim and fucking it more, making it foamy woamy just like in father paddy's mouth
>trad Cath for life