/lit/ - Literature

>>21413680
>right
No one tell him

I used to be infatuated with his ideas but he was so out there that his ideas shouldn't be implemented lightly.

>>21413680
Yes.

Als junger Liebe Lust mir verblich,
verlangte nach Macht mein Muth

>>21413680
I like mishima, but that's some vain gay dude shit.

>>21413680
Yes, this was common practice in Rome. The idea of suicide is total freedom. Seneca, Epictetus, Hume, Schopenhauer, Cioran, Jünger. All advocated for this.

>>21413729
What can I specifically read to better understand this idea?

>>21413680
Doesn't matter either way since you are gonna die anyway.

>>21413680
Bad interpretation

>>21413680
no, being old and ugly and pay whores to suck your nonfunctioning cock knowing that they will feel disgusted the entire time and probably even consider suicide is the ultimate chad move

He didn't want to live to become a senile old man, but the idea that 'one should kill himself before that point' is beyond retarded. His own idiosyncratic interpretation of "bushido" made him decide to try, on pain of death, to save Japan from cultural death and liberalization/modernization/westernization. He genuinely atttempted to save his country from his perceived threat and certainly wouldn't have committed seppuku if the military agreed and staged a coup. However, he knew that failure was almost certain and he would thus able to enact the thing he fetishized; a glorious, honourable, and beautiful death. The important thing to realize is that if he killed himself just to die it wouldn't have been glorious, honourable, or beautiful. He required that he fight for something greater than himself and the possibility of success and life. If his death was profaned by vanity or emotion then it would be "vulgar."
A lot of his views are stated more or less clearly in his Tetralogy which, although it is fiction, likely shares more of who he was as a person than novels like Confessions of a Mask.

>>21413680
No. Getting old is one of the greatest pleasures in life.

>>21413729
>Jünger
KEK he died at over 100 how is he a suicide advocate??

No, I look forward to old age, sounds comfy

>>21413680
not exactly right,but if someone doesn't want to face the hardships that come with old age,it's the easiest way out

>>21414627
No one tell this anon literally no writer ever lived by the rules they preached.

>>21414566
Good post. Bear in mind that the Sea of Fertility was his final literary effort and Confessions of a Mask his first, it is natural to see his ideas crystallize. Sun and Steel also features some of his more "mundane" ideas and will make for good reading.

>>21414462
https://emilkirkegaard.dk/en/2010/01/seneca-the-younger-on-suicide-letter-70-and-77/

>>21414627
>“Freedom is based on the anarch’s awareness that he can kill himself. He carries this awareness around; it accompanies him like a shadow that he can conjure up. “A leap from this bridge will set me free.”

>>21414645
>easiest
Hmm that's why people would rather shit in their diapers for years in nursing homes where nobody visits them rather than committing suicide.

>>21414655
Confessions of a Mask wasn't his first novel btw

>>21413729O

Only one of these MF's committed suicide and he was forced to as punishment for alleged treason.

>>21414769
To whom might that be news, I ask. What relevance might this well-known fact hold?

>>21414809
Yes, it doesn't make their statement less true. That just make them hypocrites.
>he was forced
Nah. He would be have ran away from it.

>>21414576
>>21414634
I have some bad news for you. If you tasked me with naming the least comfortable scenario possible, I would say the physical state of the elderly. Do you know they scream all night and sometimes day? They eventually stop when they die.

t. former CNA

>>21413680
>Was he right that you should kill yourself before you get old and ugly?
What a weak minded, materialistic look on life. I expected no less of a homo sapiens/denisovan mix (the so called mongoloid race). I look forward to and welcome the hardships and joys my old age will bring me. Whether it be as grand as teaching your grandchildren about life or as somber as recollecting my adventures in youth or as horrifying as slowly going blind from cataracts.
I embrace all of it, I will never falter in the face of a fight. No matter how old and ugly my body becomes with the passing years. It is naught but corporeal flesh. My soul is forever young and beautiful, so long as I will it.

>>21413680
>Was he right that you should kill yourself before you get old and ugly?
No, he was wrong.

>>21414933
Pray to God that you don't get Alzheimer, it will make all your larping useless.

>>21413680
I don't think that's why he killed himself

>>21413680


This trend of belief is as ridiculous & cringeworthy as its apposite, that one should become more sedentary —dissimulated as becoming (more) religious, and/or patriotic— the older one gets; the opposite —with all that it implies— is actually true.

>>21414933
>as teaching your grandchildren about life
kek, yeah mate. you will teach them about life as much as you can on your yearly christmas meetings when you're rotting away in some nursing home

No because “You” can’t become old. In the first place the idea of you is an abstraction because your being is part of the totality of all existence. Secondly by being part of the totality of existence you as you exist now are eternal even when your physical form fades

>>21414933
Sorry desu. Death is the ultimate terminus of all things. Doesn't matter how many grandchildren you have. Even if their grandchildren grandchildren have kids, they will be rended apart by the heat death of the universe. You are clinging to life as if it means anything other than a partially managed process of decay. Suicide is the ultimate triumph of the will.

>>21415042
Grandchildren's*

>>21415042
Based

>>21414933
They hated you become you spoke the truth.

>>21413680
If you’ve exhausted the well of creativity then yes you can kill yourself. If there’s still work to do you have to keep chugging. Mishima reached a point where he said everything he wanted to say and to continue writing the same thing over and over again would have been

>>21414566
Yeah, in a lot of ways his political beliefs seem to be an outgrowth of his aesthetic beliefs.
To me anyway but I'm hardly a mishima scholar.

>>21415042
>Sorry desu. Death is the ultimate terminus of all things.
How do you know that?

>>21414566
>He required that he fight for something greater than himself and the possibility of success and life.
Screw your optics, I'm going in.

>>21415042
>death is inevitable, so surrendering to it ASAP and forfeiting everything else is somehow a triumph of will
So if I lie down and never get up, it's a big win for me because I've surrendered to the inevitability of gravity?

>>21415331
>How do you know that?
We can observe entropic decay. It's a thermodynamic inevitability that the universe returns to thermal equilibrium, in which life would hardly be said to exist, and certainly as not as we colloquially understand it.

>>21415510
Not as*
>>21415427
Death is significantly more painful than just lying down. To surrender yourself to it is something that requires extreme strength of will.

>>21415042
1. If you really believed that you would have killed yourself already
2. Don't attach my wife to this nonsense

>>21413680
no he was just another mentally ill japanese manlet going through a midlife crisis like every other middleaged gook male. he was just a japenese weeb, posturing as a le based trad man with his bushido gungho ching chong bing bong bullshit, another prideful retard scared of modernisation and the unstoppable machine of globohomo.

>>21415612
He wasn't posturing as a le based bushido man if he literally formed an underground imperial society, lifted weights and became skilled in martial arts, wrote many extremely well respected novels and political essays, and eventually practiced exactly what he preached unlike every other author in history and attempted a military coup- before, again exactly as he preached, committing seppuku on the ideal of "not one step back."
Everyone here is posturing, but Mishima was not a poser or a larper. He is an object of fetish to larpers because he is what they WISH they were.

Hey Anons

Do you suggest any specific book order to read his work

>>21415042
least retarded suicidefag

>>21414566
> He genuinely atttempted to save his country from his perceived threat and certainly wouldn't have committed seppuku if the military agreed
Im skeptical of Mishima having any legitimate hope of success. If you look at Run Away Horses it ends with Isao committing a completely pointless suicide after he has created a scenario that he deems ethically and aesthetically sufficient for committing sepukku but its apparent that Isao’s death accomplished nothing beyond fulfilling his own wish for death. The death is only meaningful in the eyes of Isao, in terms of the change he hoped to affect it did nothing. I feel that Mishima’s death was the same. An elaborate stage play created by Mishima in order for him to die in a way that he didn’t find counter to his own aesthetic sensibilities, an elaborate mask for his death drive.

>>21413729
Surrendering to death and doing something as retarded as deliberately killing oneself is no more a triumph of will then living in spite of death. In fact living in spite of the possibility of dying at a moment's notice could be seen as a superior will and bravery. Suicide is a self pitying vain and erratic thing only practiced by the mentally ill, fags, trannies and women. It's a braindead backwards act of disgusting self pity and is completely contrary to the values that allow for life to flourish, it's a dysgenic and dysfunctional compulsion.

>>21415651
Isao didn't represent Mishima's ideal. Isao was demonstrated to be foolish and lacking in criticality. Mishima showed his own flaws and development over time.

>>21415042


If you were not a dumb atheist, you would know that you are conflating death with cessation.


Death constitutes the military of life: the dry paradise; the cold fire; the saintly void, of virtue; the way of resurrection of life, toward God.

Virtuous persistence, and ubiquitous integralness, entail cordiological – temporospatial revolution, which is appositional to the chronological – spatiotemporal one.

>>21415673
not him but what the fuck does this even mean?

>>21415683
He's a tripfag so it's meaningless.

>>21415603
>1. If you really believed that you would have killed yourself already
>2. Don't attach my wife to this nonsense
I don't see why this is an argument. My approach towards suicide is complex and multifacted. I'm simply saying that should you choose to will your own death, it's really the ultimate triumph of the will. Just because I have not done it, does not change anything I have said.

>>21415691
>he believes in the "will"
jej

>>21415664
I have not read runaway horses in a while so maybe I am misremembering but isn’t the primary criticism of Isao in the novel coming from Honda? Honda very clearly represents an overly inward intellectual that was counter to Mishima’s ideals. I find it hard to believe that there was not part of Mishima in Isao given the closeness of the novel’s publication to Mishima’s own death under quite similar circumstances. Even the last line of the novel implies a kind of divine beauty to his nihilistic suicide “The instant that the blade tore open his flesh, the bright disk of the sun soared up and exploded behind his eyelids.” I think Isao is very indicative of Mishima’s own psych.

>>21415691
>multifacted
Yeah I'm thinking you should die immediately

>>21415691
literally "I am so special and quirky" kek

>>21415673
You haven't risen to level of my challenge, and have instead sought to escape into obscurantism.

"THERE WAS A MAN whose only son died of a sudden illness.
He did not mourn for his son, nor was he sad about it. His
friends were curious about his behavior, so they asked him,
“Your only son is dead. You should be heartbroken. Why do
you act as if nothing had happened?”
The man replied, “Before my son came, I had no son. I
was certainly not heartbroken back then. Now I have no son. Why should I be heartbroken now?”"


"At death, everything returns to stillness. At this time, we
know nothing, do nothing, and feel nothing. Our energy is
again united with its source."


"It was at this time that Tzu-kung grew tired of his studies
and thought everything he did was futile. He went to
Confucius and told his teacher he wanted to take a rest.

Confucius said, “As long as you live you will not rest.”

“Then there is no place where I can find rest from my
work?”

Confucius smiled a mysterious smile and said, “Yes,
there are actually plenty of places where you can find rest.
Look carefully in the graveyards, the deep valleys, and the
high mounds. These are all places of rest.”

Tzu-kung then exclaimed, “Oh, now I know why those of
us who are living cannot know what it means to rest,
because rest is only for the dead. Death is indeed
something great! The contented person finds rest in death,
and for the greedy person, death puts an end to his long list
of desires.”

(...)

"The sage Yen-tzu also understood the meaning of death.
He said, “The ancients said that for persons who cultivated
body and mind, and who are virtuous and honorable, death is
an experience of liberation, a long-awaited rest from a
lifetime of labors. Death helps the unscrupulous person to
put an end to the misery of desire. Death, then, for
everyone, is a kind of homecoming. That is why the ancient
sages speak of a dying person as a person who is ‘going
home’ On the other hand, a living person is a traveling
person. Normally, if a traveler fails to find home when his
journeys are over, everyone will agree that this person has
lost his way. However, in the journey of life, many travelers
only know how to wander but do not know how to return
home. And yet people do not see that these travelers have
likewise lost their way."

>>21415804
>Yeah I'm thinking you should die immediately
Simple misspelling. Not like it changes anything. Contextually you know what it means. I am typing on a phone after all.
>>21415811
>literally "I am so special and quirky" kek
Yeah... this is a cope. A bad one too. Its no different than calling me edgy. And I'm the one who isn't supposed to be taken seriously?

>>21414651
>"literally no writer ever lived by the rules they preached."
>says in a thread about Mishima
Retard

>>21416136
Mishima's literally(in the literal sense) the single exception to the rule.

>>21416136
>>21416141
And uncle ted.

>>21413710
mishima, literally vain and gay, what you like about him then? the fact he larps as a samurai?

>>21413680
Dude, I'm already ugly. I'm going to live as much as the universe wants me to.

>>21414933
>My soul is forever young and beautiful, so long as I will it
this doesn't really mean anything. it ironically lacks any essence which you're striving so hard for.

>>21413680
I just want to kill myself generally. Does it really help having someone viscerally present to urge you on, and perhaps even join you?

I feel so pathetic that I presume I must be constitutionally incapable of suicide, despite my most fervent wishes. So ronery...

I had a dream a few months ago. I remember not much about the dream, but a part of it became one of those things that stick in your mind. It was a voice that I could feel as if it had a body, I could feel it come at me almost like a lion, and it said to me in a quite juvenile way a thing that still somehow felt worthy of reverence

"Life sucks! but you've gotta live it!".
The voice sounded like that of a 15 year old girl, and I don't know why, but I feel like I have to believe in this voice more than I have to believe in any philosopher or great mind. It's just a gut feeling, but I'm gonna stick to it, something inside of me is sure she was right. No matter how bad things get, how pessimistic I get, how unfairly life treats me, I'll live through it. And maybe I'll die unhappy, bitter and regretful, but only when fate says so.

A man lives for fifty years.
When compared with the Lowest Heaven,
It’s like a dream, an illusion.
Is there anyone who, given life once,
Never fades away?

>>21413680
I agree on the old part, never should have gotten over 30. But I look better than I did, when I was young, actually.

>>21414933
The only hardships you will get in old age are soiling yourself, not being able to perform even the most simple tasks like feeding and cleaning yourself and being a burden to your children (if your raise them good and they dont park you to a nutsing home) so much that they will pray to god everyday to take your life. Complete and utter humiliation, ive seen this with my own eyes

>>21413680
For hot people who have nothing else going on for them they might be tempted , but there's another option: find a hobby.

Killing yourself over getting old and less pretty is the most pathetic bitch mode idea. You'd have to be a social media hypnotized mind slave to kill yourself over getting old.

Did he really say that though or are you just giving a bastardized misinterpretation based on your own loose reading of him or outright invention?

>>21418891
Having read most of his material a long time ago I recall it being more along the lines of you should live your life with action towards beauty and after your masterpiece is complete (you as an individual for something greater) you should die heroically. Mishima writes in Sun and Steel that he thought he had much time and therefore wasted his youth in inaction and writing (IIRC he called this a twilight lifestyle) and only in his later years did he become active (lifestyle of the sun and grass or something like that).

Too much has happened personally so I don't recall all the things. Used to be very very deep into him (½ no homo).

>>21413680
You should never kill yourself

>>21415007
your writing style screams pseud

>>21414566
>>21413680
you can just tell this faggot is gay
absolute flamer

>>21418776
I dont mind being a burden. Life is give and take. If you are too prideful then I suppose it wouldnt be a bad idea to pickup smoking

>>21413680
No

>>21414900
This. Getting old is absolutely horrific. I do not look forward to it.