/lit/ - Literature

Masashi Kishimoto

>>21408987

>>21408987
How is this even a question? Martin is such a terrible writer that he's practically unreadable. At least Herbert understood the basic mechanics of grammar and narrative.

>>21409019
>Martin is such a terrible writer that he's practically unreadable
Why are contrarians like this

>>21409019
meds

Herbert is a plagiarist hack
Sabres of Paradise
>"To kill with the point lacked artistry."
Dune
>Gurney says there's no artistry in killing with the tip, that it should be done with the edge
Sabres of paradise
>Thus, in writing of Shamyl, we must place him first in his time − the first half of the nineteenth century, and then in his place − the mountains – […]
Dune
>To begin your study of the life of Muad'Dib, then, take care that you first place him in his time: born in the 57th year of the Padishah Emperor, Shaddam IV. And take the most special care that you locate Muad'Dib in his place: the planet Arrakis
Sabres of Paradise
>Shamyl, the embodiment of his land, was at once warrior and mystic, ogre and saint, foxy and innocent, chivalrous and ruthless.
Dune
>He was warrior and mystic, ogre and saint, the fox and the innocent, chivalrous, ruthless, less than a god, more than a man. There is no measuring Muad'Dib's motives by ordinary standards.
Sabres of Paradise
>O mountains of Gounib, O soldiers of Shamyl,
>Shamyl’s citadel was full of warriors,
>Yet it has fallen, fallen forever …
Dune
>O Seas of Caladan,
>O people of Duke Leto--
>Citadel of Leto fallen,
>Fallen forever. . .
>-from "Songs of Muad'Dib" by the Princess Irulan

The writing in Dune is absolutely ghastly. Its only merit is innovating numerous sci fi concepts, and that's about it.

>>21408987
Personally I like Dune more. But I think that Dune was poorly written. Every book seems to become extremely convoluted after about halfway through. The aesthetic of space Jihadists is what carried it. But if you think about the core concepts, like the Golden Path... or kwisatz haderach... they don't really make sense.

>>21409115
Cool. McCarthy stole half his book as well. Always fun to see the "great artists steal" thing in practice.

>>21408987
Herbert had far more original ideas, but his prose was clunky. Martin is the far better stylist, despite mostly throwing cool shit others have come up with in a blender. To his credit his works are far better than the sum of their parts, but there's little truly original in them. He's basically the lit equivalent of Tarantino now that I think about it.

>>21408987
Herbert's characters are literal robots without emotions
Martin's best.

>>21408987
Herbert is a writer wanting to be an ecologist, Martin is a dungeon master(TM) wanting to be a writer.
That is all there is to say.

I'm sure objectively speaking one must be better than the other but both of them are so fucking garbage it doesn't really seem like there is any value in finding the answer.

>>21408987
J.R.R. Tolkien

The two are both fundamentally different. The only reason people compare them is in their portrayal of feudal conflicts. Both depict different sects of humanity.

Herbert writes his story from a group of people that are in a state of humanity so altered, that even basic primal instincts are changed. You could argue that all of the villains are shown to be the most human out of the whole cast since all of them are greedy, but even then, Herbert's whole mythos is just humanity on steroids.

GRRM is writing a different sort of conflict altogether. Herbert's world changes each of its characters in one way or another, but in ASOIF, the world is pretty much your textbook low fantasy world, except he portrays it as something very human. GRRM argues the sort of oppesite idea of dune; instead of the characters overcoming human greed for what they see as a better world, the entire story is about flawed, very human characters doing the same thing humanity has done time and time again.

>>21409302
Dune was never interested me

>>21408987
Both are bad but I'd take Martin as his ideas tend to be more interesting

>>21408987
GRRM

Herbert mogs

>>21408987
How is this even a question? Herbert is such a terrible writer that he's practically unreadable. At least Martin understood the basic mechanics of grammar and narrative.

>>21408987
What trips Martin up is his apparent animus against Tolkien, and his jihad to "correct" Tolkien's "errors" by going to the other extreme.
- All 4 hobbits came home safe and sound? Unrealistic. Let's have a narrative where almost everyone you care about gets killed!
- No sex? Puerile. Let's have lots of sex!
etc. etc.
It was when I learned about the character "Samwell Tarly" (obv throwing shade on "Samwise Gamgee") that I gave Martin up as unredeemable.

>>21409019
>unreadable
Get a load of this moron

>>21411990
He's being contrarian, anon. Ignore him

>>21408998
this

>>21409115
>>21409344
There are so many references to so many other works that one would be a fool not to understand that making them traceable was intentional. Dune would actually be much poorer as a literary touchstone if Herbert altered them completely in an attempt to be 'original'. One ought to look at Dune as being in something of a dialectic conversation with those earlier works, and one ought also to see that without their inclusion in Dune they would be even more obscure, or forgotten entirely. Dune keeps them alive.
>>21409554
I agree that Herbert is the lesser prose stylist, at least when Martin isn't phoning it in, like this bit from ADWD (involving food, because of course it does):
>It was, though any stale crust would have tasted just as fine to Davos; it meant he was a guest here, for this one night at least. The lords of the Three Sisters had a black repute, and none more so than Godric Borrell, Lord of Sweetsister, Shield of Sisterton, Master of Breakwater Castle, and Keeper of the Night Lamp … but even robber lords and wreckers were bound by the ancient laws of hospitality. I will see the dawn, at least, Davos told himself. I have eaten of his bread and salt.
>Though there were stranger spices than salt in this sister’s stew. “Is it saffron that I’m tasting?” Saffron was worth more than gold. Davos had only tasted it once before, when King Robert had sent a half a fish to him at a feast on Dragonstone.
>“Aye. From Qarth. There’s pepper too.” Lord Godric took a pinch between his thumb and forefinger and sprinkled his own trencher. “Cracked black pepper from Volantis, nothing finer. Take as much as you require if you’re feeling peppery.
>>21409202
>>21409302
>>21409664
incapable of deep reading
>>21409642
Herbert is a writer wanting to be a philosopher (and a bit of a preacher), and he often is

>>21408987
GRRM. They're both write like shit, but at least GRRM writes it with a bit of fun and charisma. Herbert just exacerbates the curse of cold soullessness robotic-ism that comes with the sci-fi genre.

Not that you would ever catch me reading genre shit anyway...

>>21413348
>incapable of deep reading
This is cope. The pacing of the second half of the first book of Dune, for instance, is complete shit.

>>21413654
>The pacing of the second half of the first book of Dune, for instance, is complete shit.
Now explain how.
>This is cope.
This is projection.

>>21413672
Are you really about to defend the retarded time skip, the fact that the emperor is deposed, the fact that the baron dies, that Paul's sister is born, his son dies, and the Fremen completely beat the Sardakuar... in half of one book. The first Dune book needed to be at least two books. It's bad, it just is. It makes no sense. Just admit it.

>>21413708
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-mLVVJkH7I&t=1230s
Start here, listen until 27:56 for the relevant bit, or listen to the whole thing
Then think about how including those things that you seem to want would have altered the narrative shape of the novel and series, and how detailing the events of the timeskip or spending considerably more time on the warfare between the Fremen and the Sardaukar would have changed the focus, the purpose, and the reader's perspective.
Not everything needs to be explained or catalogued or detailed, and the fact in itself that you want more is some measure of authorial success.

>>21413348
I love that passage what are you on about

>>21408987
I have only read the first book of Dune and I have read all of ASOIAF

Herbert is better at world-building than Martin. Most world-building in Dune is done indirectly or done through dialogue between characters. A lot of Martin's world-building is told straight to the reader which pads the book out immensely.

That being said, that entire middle section of Dune is a slog to read. The first three books of ASOIAF are fun from start to finish. Its not until book four that they start to feel like mostly filler, and book five is without the worst one and where it becomes obvious that he just kind of makes this shit up as he goes along.

I'd say Herbert is better at prose and world-building but Martin produces a more satisfying plot. Their characters are about equal.

Herberts Prose is much better and complex