/lit/ - Literature

>>21382909
there's absolutely no way that a guy who looks like that said those things

>>21382909
How the fuck am I supposed to read that? I'm not scrolling the page horizontally for you.

>>21382935
Phoneposter problems.

>>21382924
Wow judgmental much? Socrates looks like a fat old barkeep.

>>21382924
I think people are idiotically looking down upon native americans without due research other than retarded authors that have never really studied them beyond hearsay or imagination.
Read The Gospel of The Red Man. Pretty comprehensive and short.

>>21382909
>How would someone versed in theology and Christian apologetics refute them?
Any and every way they can. There's no limit to the mental gymnastics involved in Christian apology, because they have to justify their faith in the Resurrection.
>>21382924
The state of the West is a curse upon Christians wiping out the North Americans. At the time of colonialism they were the noblest race on Earth in the eyes of the gods.

>>21382947
There is a reason why you never see 30+ words per line. Ideal amount is 8-12.
I'm not reading this either.

>>21383085
pfft fine I'll pastebin it.
https://pastebin.com/qxBStKmh

>>21383031
>Read The Gospel of The Red Man
Key takeways so I can pretend to have read it?

>>21383069
>At the time of colonialism they were the noblest race on Earth in the eyes of the gods.
Some of them could indeed be pretty based but this is a bit of a stretch.

>>21383096
Thanke for the effort, I'll read it later today and will give it a page 10 bump.

>>21382909
The problem with fedoras appropriating men like him is that the guy was clearly not an atheist, he just didn't think Christianity is right about god. Indeed, the idea that a god would change his form into something less than perfect being illogical goes back to Plato

>>21383069
>At the time of colonialism they were the noblest race on Earth in the eyes of the gods.
lol stfu retard.

>>21383468
>Indeed, the idea that a god would change his form into something less than perfect being illogical
I fail to understand how. It's actually a testament to God's ability to be both perfectly immanent and transcendent of his creation if anything.

Seems like he was unable to accept the love and humility of Jesus, and also projected “fear of death” onto him only to brag about how brave native Americans are out of his own arrogance, so it’s no surprise he didn’t believe. Didn’t read anything besides On the Bible and On Jesus

>>21383477
Because for a perfect being to render itself imperfect would no longer make it the god. it would see no reason to do so.

>>21383504
So you disagree with the Hindus, and Buddhists, and Christians, and Jews and almost every religion on their conceptualization of God?

>>21383504
>imperfect
Jesus Christ is not imperfect, though. He is the Truth

>>21383456
Thank you in advance for your service.

>>21383512
I'm just reiterating Plato's argument. Maybe they are all wrong

Another fat pagang W

>>21382909
Bro, I'm sincerely disappointed. Here I come, detesting the format in which you've created this, but determined to give it a chance. I sidescroll along, reading this man's thoughts, which I expected to be profound, and it is nothing, but trite stupidity. You said elementary school kids thought it? Perhaps, as it is that basic.

Let me say it this way, if you can't refute it yourself, you have spent no time thinking on your own and come here for handouts like a beggar. Go, read your Bible rather than listening to leaders of tribespeople whose animism has done nothing for man, and think on who God is. Do what your Bible says, and build a relationship with God. You'll reach a point you won't need help refuting silly old Lahontan men.
>>21383031
No, although an interesting and not unlikeable people, they were fairly as primitive as most animistic cultures.
>>21383069
What incomprehensible logic. If such grand curses come down upon nations, then, without a doubt, the Natives would have been the one's cursed.

>>21382909
With this: https://pastelink.net/2w1ne

>>21383531
>I'm just reiterating Plato's argument.
You never read Plato

>>21383468
The basic Platonic argument, to my understanding, would be similar to the following:
>A being experiences desire when it either lacks something or incorrectly believes that it lacks something.
>God, being perfect, could neither lack something nor could it be ignorant and believe something which is not true.
>God therefore desires nothing.
>A being only acts with purpose when it has a desire. An intentional action without a desire is incomprehensible.
>Therefore God does not intentionally act.
>Jesus Christ intentionally acted towards a purpose.
>Therefore Jesus Christ is not God.
The weakest premise is 1), but Plato defends it notably in both the Philebus and the Symposium.

>>21382924
you are (to put it delicately) extremely retarded and should be ashamed

>jesus feared death
not sure where he got this facile impression of the scripture. i dismiss his arguments on the basis that he has been misled, and that his proxy was inept.

>>21383783
Clearly ypu haven't since you are not even familiar with his disbelief that Zeus would ever transform into a swan.
Stop being a retard taking everything to heart.

>>21383031
>I think people are idiotically looking down upon native americans without due research
I live around them. The less white mixture in the native, generally the more retarded and primitive they are. The mixed ones aren't anything to write home about either. The chief in OP could have been an extreme outlier though
>The Gospel of The Red Man
sell me on it

>>21383895
>would rather have the cup pass from him
>god, why have you forsaken me
>crying in the garden instead of stoically or even heroically and enthusiastically embracing his faith
>generally being kind of a snake and talking in riddles instead of frankly answering questions
He's definitely not portrayed in the NT as some sort of chad that has no fear of death

>>21384000
>embracing his faith
*fate

>>21383874
Lmao look at the picture bro

>>21384000
This is probably my biggest issue with Christianity. The weeping, “why has God forsaken me”, etc. is in pale contrast to the manner in which Socrates or the Buddha approached their death.

>>21384025
you should read more, 'why hath thou forsaken me' is actually a line from Psalms 22, to show his strong faith, the lad was singing. *singing*. He was being tortured and was singing god's praises. Go read psalms 22 and see for yourselves.

>>21384025
At the very least death by crucifixion seems far more painful than death by drinking a poison or death "by meditation".
>The weeping, “why has God forsaken me”
This has nothing to do with fear of the death itself.

>>21384039
Plenty of other lines in the psalms, there being 124 of them.

>>21384059
I would prefer hemlock to crucifixion as well, but that is a sign of my personal weakness, which is all the more proof that I am just a man. I also cannot believe that God would actually feel pain.

>>21384060
it's a psalm about being persecuted for loving the lord, and calling upon him to be close. i can see that your heart is wicked, and your belly yellow. you don't care either way what christ's motivations are, you just want any excuse to attack him. No point in saying anything further.

>>21384039
>He was being tortured and was singing god's praises
Then he should have sang a different Psalm than this obvious lamentation. The content of the Psalm matters. You don't just get to throw away the sentiment in the Psalm just because it's in a collection that also includes praises to God. Jesus is not "singing God's praises", not exactly; he's lamenting his fate and chose a relevant line for this purpose.

>>21384074
again, you are wicked and i won't be giving you any more pearls to trample on, coward hog.

>>21382909
The first sentence is wrong. Genesis isn't an astronomy or biology textbook. Please post relevant excerpts.

>>21384073
No matter what you may think I have no problem with Jesus. Comparing him to the great masses of men who have inhabited this earth, he ranks very highly. I would commend both his conduct and most of the content of his teachings. However I simply cannot accept that he either is God or the Son of God. I admit that I could be wrong but I don’t think I will change my views. I am, I guess, in all things what God made me and I have no choice but to follow my mind.

>>21384066
Jesus has two natures divine and human. If you believe there can be an incarnation of God, what's the problem with God experiencing pain in that incarnation?

>>21384060
This is actually a useless post.

>>21384090
I actually have quite the problem with God incarnating at all, as I state in this post >>21383863
However, granting for the sake of the argument that God could incarnate as a human, does it not follow that the incarnation of God would not have any use for the experience of pain? Being omnipotent, any sensorial content it experiences will be voluntary, and God will also have perfect control over his own actions, thus by making himself experience pin God would be torturing himself to no end.

>>21384091
There are a great many lines which praise God, glorify God, so on and so forth in the psalms. Why say that line in particular? My point here is that the line being included in the Psalms is an insufficient argument.

>>21384109
pain, not pin

>>21384088
St. Athansius's final analysis is that in this world (created that is) all matter and information must be one and as such if you view the words of Christ as salvation then the tree itself, Jesus, must be salvation in material form as well. This is basically the key to understanding Logos as the unformed chaos is extant in all heresies but in Christ's logos alone is matter and form in one. It is more logical than faith but I agree the faith component is a huge ask. I would recommend reading about martyrs as they can inspire you in a way I cannot.

>>21384116
It was to give peace and fellowship to those who were to suffer in the name of the Lord. Pretty simple.

>>21384116
>My point here is that the line being included in the Psalms is an insufficient argument.
Verbatim quoting of a Psalm line is not an argument or whatever reason but merely a fact and nothing more. He quotes a Psalm and that Psalm is 22.

>>21384124
I’m not disputing that. However, there are 124 psalms which all contain numerous lines. Presumably Jesus knew all of them. So the question of why he quoted that particular line is not obviously stupid.

Psalm 22
1
My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from saving me, so far from the words of my groaning?
2
O my God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer, by night, and am not silent.
3
Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One; you are the praise of Israel. [1]
4
In you our fathers put their trust; they trusted and you delivered them.
5
They cried to you and were saved; in you they trusted and were not disappointed.
6
But I am a worm and not a man, scorned by men and despised by the people.
7
All who see me mock me; they hurl insults, shaking their heads:
8
"He trusts in the LORD; let the LORD rescue him. Let him deliver him, since he delights in him."
9
Yet you brought me out of the womb; you made me trust in you even at my mother's breast.
10
From birth I was cast upon you; from my mother's womb you have been my God.
11
Do not be far from me, for trouble is near and there is no one to help.
12
Many bulls surround me; strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
13
Roaring lions tearing their prey open their mouths wide against me.
14
I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint. My heart has turned to wax; it has melted away within me.
15
My strength is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth; you lay me [2] in the dust of death.
16
Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced [3] my hands and my feet.
17
I can count all my bones; people stare and gloat over me.
18
They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing.
19
But you, O LORD, be not far off; O my Strength, come quickly to help me.
20
Deliver my life from the sword, my precious life from the power of the dogs.
21
Rescue me from the mouth of the lions; save [4] me from the horns of the wild oxen.
22
I will declare your name to my brothers; in the congregation I will praise you.
23
You who fear the LORD, praise him! All you descendants of Jacob, honor him! Revere him, all you descendants of Israel!
24
For he has not despised or disdained the suffering of the afflicted one; he has not hidden his face from him but has listened to his cry for help.
25
From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly; before those who fear you [5] will I fulfill my vows.
26
The poor will eat and be satisfied; they who seek the LORD will praise him-- may your hearts live forever!
27
All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD, and all the families of the nations will bow down before him,
28
for dominion belongs to the LORD and he rules over the nations.
29
All the rich of the earth will feast and worship; all who go down to the dust will kneel before him-- those who cannot keep themselves alive.
30
Posterity will serve him; future generations will be told about the Lord.
31
They will proclaim his righteousness to a people yet unborn-- for he has done it.

note that the incorrigible demon flees upon being tasked with reading the scripture. how odd!

>>21383863
This argument does not apply to Christian God(Or God of any other coherent religion), the the mistake is with the fourth premise combined with the first, which hold only if logic had sovereignty over God, which is by definition nonsensical, since logic would then be a higher god, actually not just logic, but dialectics and all that comes with that. You're kind of going in the reverse of the transcendental, but Christian God is the God of transcendental argument. (Christian) God exists precisely because things like telos/purpose, meaning and transcendental categories exist, and they all combine together and manifest coherently, the transcendental argument is that for it to be the case the existence of God has to be assumed. Now subjecting God to logic is as stupid subjecting God to time and space, you can easily demonstrate that God can't be confined in a particular place in space and time, do you infer from it that God doesn't exist then? You only infer that if He exists, he exists outside of space and time. In the same way the only thing you've really shown is that God is not confined in logical notions. That is not to say that God breaks logic or is illogical by the way.
>>21384109
> thus by making himself experience pin God would be torturing himself to no end.
non sequitur, especially if you're a Platonist, since according to Plato you were participating in the One before birth, so whatever pain you feel is not an actual pain too by the same line of reasoning. So if God's pain was not real pain, it at least was not any less real than yours.

>>21384177
I was making dinner. I can’t spend every waking minute of my life on 4chan, can I?
>>21384146
It’s a nice work, and I appreciate the sentiment, but it’s still fit for a man and not for a God. I simply don’t see it as the sort of thing God would say. Otherwise you would be affirming that God suffers.

>>21382909
I tend to leave Christians alone. Many of the ones i've met that actively choose it are simply afraid of the horrible realities of human existence and want to believe in something that externally validates their desire for goodness and love. It isn't something I personally believe or find satisfactory for myself but I don't enjoy ripping people's coping mechanisms/morality systems up and shitting on them just for the sake of it so long as the core of their ethics is okay.

>>21384204
>I simply don’t see it as the sort of thing God would say
Because you're making a false dichotomy here, which is:
> but it’s still fit for a man and not for a God
Jesus was both God and a man.

>>21384194
Huh?

>>21382989
Socrates was literally called frog-face by his friends, which these days is super ironic.

>>21384194
I’m not a Platonist but I think the argument has merit. It is not I but the Christians who violate the transcendental nature of God by incarnating him. Does God have desires, yes or no? If he does not, then why incarnate? If he does, he is not beyond being but is instead just as being in that respect like any other. God cannot exist in the same way that I do, because otherwise I could simply say, “Where is God?” And I would be right to do so.

>>21384247
huh?

>>21384221
Are the natures different or not? If they’re not, then they must be one nature and Jesus is simply God and not a man. If they are different, then he isn’t God. Furthermore, how can something which is transcendental (God) mix with a being (a man)?

>>21384267
I’m not >>21384227
That is someone else

>>21384227
What did you not understand? You're applying the notions of created telos, desire to God and also confining Him to logic which lies within the creation too. I was not just refuting you talking about Jesus in particular, I refuted you on the fact that God can't do any purposeful actions.
>>21384247
> It is not I
You did violate God transcendence, by making logic, dialectics and purpose into higher gods than God.
>but the Christians who violate the transcendental nature of God by incarnating him
No, they don't. They would violate it if they pointed at the body of Jesus and said that this is all God is.
>Does God have desires, yes or no?
I don't know what you mean by desire, God does not lack anything. and can do purposeful actions. And it is reflected in humans who do purposeful actions of out love.
> God cannot exist in the same way that I do
Yet you expect God to be confined to and thoroughly described by logic whose consistency you can't even prove, lol (Second Gödel's theorem)

>>21384290
>God does not lack anything. and can do purposeful actions
Pretty bold statement from a man who just chastised someone for making logic, dialectics, and purpose into higher Gods.

>>21384268
>Are the natures different or not?
Of course they are,
>If they are different, then he isn’t God
what
> how can something which is transcendental (God) mix with a being (a man)?
What do you mean how? Like should I give you a formula or something? How could something immanent (our world) come from something transcendental(God) is no less of a question.
If you're sincerely interested in that question, go read Maximus the Confessor's debate with Pyrrhus which is about two wills of Christ in particular. Also your other basic platonistic questions would all have been addressed by the Fathers, as the first few centuries of Christian theology was mostly polemics with Greek philosophy.

>>21384294
>Pretty bold statement from a man?
What is bold about it? Did I make God subject to anything?

>>21384290
so nice to see someone else take up the fight against logic. so many men have died at the hands of that false being, how many base their every deed and desire on it, sacrifice their babies, their families entire, their very lives for what is truly an insufficient way to percieve this world around us. i am often troubled by rhetoric and its sway over all of us, and the more i have let go of it, the more i've profited by its absence.

>>21383926
I've read and reread just about every Plato dialogue agreed to be authentic by consensus and I don't recall him ever commenting on Zeus taking the form of a swan. Can you refresh my memory as to which dialogue this was from?

Having read this thread, the native dude was on the money and it mostly boils down the Christian god being a poorly thought out character and Jesus even less so. As a tool for controlling the masses it's handy, but under intense scrutiny none of it holds up. Hell, they didn't even bother to get the birth of the messiah consistent.

>>21384325
Logocentrism is truly the bane of man.

>>21382909
>he was born to die so there's no reason why he should have been afraid of death
This genuinely doesn't make any sense. He follows up with something that sounds vaguely Socratic, but fails to actually say anything that supports what he said here. It's an empty explanation; Nothing to it but pretty words.
What he says about silver is not too different from what you can find in the Bible itself, which is to be expected as he's only affirming what he has already read or had read to him.
>For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
Judging the truth of anything based on the actions of the people who believe in it has always been a bit of a cop out. Lots of people believe that 2+2 will always equal 4. Heliocentrism continues to be practically undisputed. It's tough to find a person who doesn't believe in gravity. Most people who believe those things aren't that smart, but it doesn't stop them from being true, or in the case of heliocentrism, so resistant to change because of how much more convenient it is in regards to calculations of the extraterrestrial. That aside, I can wholly agree with him here.

He also says a bunch of stuff about it being improbable that an "Incomprehensible Being" should turn himself into man, live a miserable life, and so on. This is a big head scratcher, because he himself is describing what he understands to be an incomprehensible being, yet he goes on to limit that being's ability by building false walls which that being could not logically overcome, thereby assuming to know the limits of the being, to be able to comprehend an incomprehensible being.

>>21384365
>dude who comes from a completely alien society has radically alien views from a 2022 cultural christian
Wow, who could have seen that one coming!

>>21384351
aye.

>>21384343
>literally the most influential 'character' on the planet, spawned truly countless arts, cultures, civilizations, philosophies
>poorly thought out
???
you even contradict yourself by saying he's a "handy tool". supposing it is merely a farce, (it isn't), cui bono? the followers of christ were ritualistically slaughtered by the hundreds of thousands during that period, what the heck would they invent that for, for what purpose would they devise their nigh persecution at the hands of their foes, and even their own families? Wtf are you talking about?

>>21384365
it's bizarre anyone would somehow swallow this clearly misinformed and illiterate injun chieftan, and even attempt to use his uninformed arguments to convert people

>>21384412
I'm not sure what this has to do with my post.

>>21384421
>nigh infinite*
derp. everyone makes mistakes!

>>21383684
Translation: I have no answer to the chieftain's simple arguments but I still want to LARP as a Christian

>>21384325
Where did I say a word against logic of relying on it? Or that even theology must not employ logic? My only point was that logic is within the creation(as well as purpose, desire and so on), while God is transcendent, so making God confined to it is wrong. That is not the same as to say that God violates logic(that would be the same as saying that logic violates logic because it can't prove its own consistency due to Gödel's second theorem), and our arguments still have to be devoid of logical contradictions.

>>21384290
By making God above logic we actually have it worse, because the ‘Problem of Evil’ becomes insolvable. Basically, God wants the world to reach a point (the Second Coming, etc.), but since he is not subject to the rules of logic why doesn’t he immediately realize his wish? The perceptual events which intervene between the establishment of the Kingdom, why are they necessary? Why time at all? Timeless perfection is much better.

>>21384450
All you've translated is your own childish belief. I won't offer answers because they are better earned than given. You're on a literature thread, you want the answers the Bible has? Go fetch them. You want the understanding which comes through patient thought? Practice it. Stop asking for handouts like a beggar.

>>21382909
Essentially he'a just a brainlet
>If Jesus came here to die then why does he not want to be tortured to death? Don't make no sense mayn

>>21384449
sorry for overestimating you!

>>21384453
>we actually have it worse
By what metric?
>the ‘Problem of Evil’ becomes insolvable
If anything it it's the only way to resolve it.
>but since he is not subject to the rules of logic why doesn’t he immediately realize his wish?
I emphasize for the third time, placing God above logic is not the same as saying God violates logic. And I don't think it's in accordance with Christianity to expect God to violate logic, since whatever comes from God is true. Only in Islam Allah is the master of lies.

>>21384467
If all it took to understand and logically defend Christianity's whacky beliefs was reading the bible, then gorillions of pages of Christian apologetics wouldn't exist. Europeans have been trying to reconcile their Graeco-Roman philosophical heritage with this near Eastern cult worshipping a tribal war god for almost two millennia.

I admire your dedication to the LARP but it's obvious you're adopting a holier than thou attitude because you have no answers that make sense outside of your own Christian mythological belief structure.

>>21382909
>the last section, "On Mony"
big chief needs to cool it with the antisemitic remarks

>>21384515
Reaffirm your ignorance if it pleases you, yet it won't prosper you. No amount of insult will make lies truth. Repent, rather, and seek Christ.

>>21384421
Okay, well Christmas is coming up, which of his birth stories do you think are true and why are the wrong ones on the book to begin with? Well written and influential aren't always the same thing, Disney Marvel movies should have taught even you that by now.

>>21384859
yeah that'll show him lmfao

>>21385009
Christ will show all Himself. I don't need to convince via argument. In fact it would be more effective to pray and fast on his behalf, most likely. Man already knows in his heart God is real, and the Lord reveals Christ to those whom He has foreknown.

Besides, what he said of Christianity was easily refuted, and just to prove the point, I'll do it for your sake.
>If all it took to understand and logically defend Christianity's whacky beliefs was reading the bible, then gorillions of pages of Christian apologetics wouldn't exist.
>If all it took to understand a poet was reading him commentaries wouldn't exist.
>If all it took to prove a theorem was math, the academic process wouldn't exist.
>If all it took to understand philosophy was reading it, then philosophy classes wouldn't exist.
>If all it took to understand a novel was reading it, literary criticism wouldn't exist.
The reality is, for those who have the capacity, or are at the right stage of development, for any of these things, reading, abstract thought, or private experimentation are all that is necessary. Apologists, in my opinion, as well as most theologians, are entirely unnecessary, yet they are necessary for particular people at particular times in their lives. They are not necessary because they actually are, but because of their value to those individuals. God is the colossal, insumountable intellect who speaks a universe into existence - He gets His points across exactly as it pleases Him to do. If He has commanded an apologist to that work, it was His pleasure, if He did not, it was that apologist's vanity, most likely.

>>21385038
If I was created by God to be pleasing to him, how could I not be pleasing to him? Given that he is omnipotent, surely whatever he made is exactly what he wanted to make. And since he is omnipotent, he doesn’t need to go through a process to make what he wants to make, so clearly I am either pleasing to him as I am or else, even though I am not pleasing to him, it is my God-given nature to be not pleasing to him and therefore by being not pleasing to him I am fulfilling my divinely ordained function.

>>21383069
>At the time of colonialism they were the noblest race on Earth in the eyes of the gods.
low quality b8

>>21384207
I find it interesting how atheist either consider Christianity a form of cope or they take the opposite stance and see if as a form on enslavement, which if liberated from would make them happier. Two completely contradictory stances held without ironing.

>>21384467
You're not willing to argue for the hell of it or to convert and possibly save the souls of the audience of lurkers? So, you're no fun and not really a christian.

>>21383684
>no counterarguments for these "simple arguments"
unreal how christcusks can make fucking natives seem intellectually capable, pull it together you retarded ape

>>21382909
why did the transcriber use f to represent the long s? thats stupid, you arent transcribing in hand, use an s.

>>21385196
>wtf people can agree on some ideas and disagree on others
christcucks and their fragility are unmatched even by white women

>>21385231
Yeah it doesn't seem very christian. I though they were supposed to spread the good word instead of going "lol just read the bible until Christ reveals himself to you and dissolves your rational arugments".

>>21382909
People talking about Jesus "debasing" himself by becoming a man and being willing to die seem to miss all the times he declares that human pride and human conceptions of grandeur mean nothing to God, and the proper attitude someone should have is Christ's own attitude: that they be "meek and humble of heart." God clearly has nothing to prove; He has no power or grandeur to prove. Rather, He comes down to a lowly state to remind us that anything grand or magnificent we achieve in this life is fleeting, and comes to nothing in the end.

That's the thrust of Jesus' entire mission, and why His death opens the way to eternal life for humans. It's in keeping with the spirit of Ecclesiastes, which /lit/ loves so much. "Vanity of vanities, all is vanity." Everything in this world and that exists in history is fleeting, even the things that are grand and beautiful. So Christ teaches us not to trust them, to put our hope in what is eternal. That's why, though Christ hoped not to die, God ultimately strengthened His spirit and gave Him the strength to die; because "he who saves his life will lose it, but he who loses his life for My sake will save it." The lowliness and death of Christ serve, at least in part, to remind us of what is truly important, in the span of eternity.

>>21385231
>>21385239
>>21385285
You already know the Good Word. The Good Word is simple: Christ was God's only Son, born of a virgin, who lived a perfect, sinless life and died on the cross for yours and all our sins. He rose from the dead three days later, and now sits at the throne of God, at the Father's right hand, interceeding on behalf of men until such a time as God sends Him back to this Earth to reign in earnest, and that time is coming soon. Believe in Christ and you will be saved! Repent your sins! Spread this Good Word!

Congratulations. I didn't tell it to you because you already know it, and you know that you do. You simply do not believe it. It is the same reason I do not make argument. Read the Word if you want to know. Seek God while He may be found you wicked men who wish to be catered to to no end!

What you seek is to engage the vanity of your intellects! You do not seek Christ! Hypocrites! Liars!

>>21383096
thanks anon, that image was burning my eyes

>>21385081
This is EXACTLY why I don't talk to you people in earnest. YOU'RE NOT SERIOUS!

BE SERIOUS!

We, OBVIOUSLY, already failed to please Him, and daily do so! This is why Christ became propitiation. The Word tells us it is impossible to please Him. There is only one way, believe in Christ and repent, continuously turning from your wicked ways! All you empty rationalizing is futile when it is done as disingenuously as you've done here!

Your God-given nature was SINNED AGAINST in the Garden, twisted, and is now your flesh nature! Now stop talking to me as if I were God, and read the Word of the Living God for your answers! You a proud, lazy, and inhumble men, and you wish me to put on false humility and cater to your pride!

I WILL NOT! REPENT! SEEK GOD WHILE HE MAY BE FOUND OR DIE AND FACE HIM IN JUDGEMENT AS ALL MUST!

>>21385343
>>21385362
This has to be black propaganda.

>>21385343
I guess my problem is seeking logos has led me to see christianity as a jewish psyop to weaken rome (and then later societies) by installing in them universalist ethics and deference to jews. I did start off earnestly seeking Christ, but you probably won't believe me and call me a demon.

>>21385390
behold, christian universalism
>Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

>And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

>But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

>For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

>But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

>And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

>And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

>>21383684
People who couldn't leave the stone age are talking circles around you. What a horrible legacy the final form of your religion is.

>>21385476
>being fearful or having doubts is judged comparably to murdering, raping and being a literal sorcerer in christianity
epic simply epic

>>21385489
Lol, no they aren't. Hahahaha, not even close. Not to mention, what company do they keep? Many of the greatest minds the world has ever seen were Christians, and most all the rest still deists. The animists were wrecked, and the atheists have given the world little but our present chaos - worsening as their latest collection of pet projects comes to fruition.

I've yet to meet a man who can talk circles round me, and few who can match me, though I'm sure they're out there.

As for final forms, our religion reaches its final form in the new Heaven and the new Earth. That phase begins when Christ returns to the Earth. That time is drawing near, as the signs are showing. Keep watch, both on the signs and the state of your soul. Seek Christ.

>>21385476
Yeah, that is christian universalsim and it is disgusting. It's basically jewish dominion of earth. Christians are supposed recognize the soul equality of all races of people, but jews are allowed to be a special chosen and separate (holy) group.
>all nations (goyim) worship the god of the jews
>all share in the vision of an apocalyptic new jerusalem where the nations (goyim) will be slaughtered or made slaves for jews.
>modern christians and even most secular atheists not only don't see anything wrong with this, but think it's a good and beautiful thing

On the topic of God and Logic; Is God supposed to be above Logic in the Christian faith or visa versa? It was my understanding that God IS Logic itself.

Imagine spending your whole life learning all of this shit, all of the rules and technical details, onlt to find out through someone who can't even read that it was basically on par with Dungeons and Dragons fanfic

How embarrasing!

>>21384025
Understand that the 'weight' of Christ's death is far greater than that of Buddha or Socrates, as Christ paid the cost of original sin.

>>21386122
Yes, he sacrificed so that all the Christians after him don't have to, that's why most Christians are generally such terrible people, because being good requires sacrifice, and someone already did it for them

Christianity is basically all about outsourcing your suffering

>>21386122
This feels like the dumb paradox about God creating a stone so heavy he can’t lift it.
>Can God make a sin so heavy he struggles to redeem it?

>>21386117
kek

>>21382909
>people who write books lie, so the bible, a book written by people probably has lies.

the bible is not a book written by people, it is the historical cannon of the jews, as such it is as accurate as chief balding chinamans own oral traditions. so if the bible is lies then so are his songs and rituals and everything else he believes.

>original sin is evil and unjust

there were no children before adam and eve, they create children as a temporary unification with god. original sin led to the propagation of the human race.

>why would god become a man just to suffer when he knows everything including what that would be like

god is melodramatic and likes to perform as part of his creation. he's an actor-director. the wind blows because if it didn't it wouldn't.

>improbable

why would it be improbable for god to incarnate? in all native american traditions god is constantly incarnating into various animals and elemental forces to teach people lessons.

>unification of man and god

it's a symbolic atonement for original sin

>bro how can god fit inside man, why didn't he come as a lamborghini robot transformer

because it fullfills earlier jewish prophecy and is a necessary completion of their religious cycle and a continuation of the covenant first signed with the jews when moses got the contracts, again this is the god of reality revealing himself to the jews then choosing to expand the enterprise through the jews - who became christians. ur only hearing about it now because he didn't like you enough to sail across the ocean until now, that's why you've been savage cannibals for the past 30,000 years and couldnt figure out a pencil even though you burn fire every day and there's charcoal all around and animal skins are basically paper and so is bark which is everywhere. nice fucking oral tradition btw, it's all gone.
>usual antisemitic conspiracy theories

well well well the penny finally drops

>114 posts
>basic arguments of an uneducated redskin savage from 400 years ago still go unrefuted
So this is the power of Christian theology.

>>21385940
i don't think you understand what christian universalism even is, anon... it sound like you just picked a term out of hat that seemed like it fit and went with it.

>>21386934
doctrine of original sin is a pure retardation, it is also very funny that jews never had that idea.
Only goyim need to be afraid of hell because by simple existence goyim is evil and only through endless prayer to jewish god goyim can become good

>>21387267
Yeah not using some common textbook term, but I did explain what I meant. Please read what I said and argue against it and don't be autistic. The christian ethic that all souls and races are equal is universalistic, regardless of what "christian universalism" is accepted to mean by you, and that's what I meant. I'm not arguing against some construct in your head, but what I have clearly stated to you.

>>21387526
>Christians are supposed recognize the soul equality of all races of people, but jews are allowed to be a special chosen and separate (holy) group.
You believe that Christian Universalism, or rather, your proposed version of Christian Universalism, holds that the souls of all men are equal, except for those of the Jews, which are special, chosen, separate, and holy. This is an oxymoron. When the soul of the Jew is weighed as being more valuable than the gentile's, then the topic of our conversation ceases to be about Universalism. It is not about the value of souls, but whether or not they will be saved; Whether all will be saved, or if some will face eternal punishment in Hell.

You said you were seeking the Logos, so I'm assuming you've read the Bible at least once, seeing as many people believe that Christian ideas of the Logos were ripped straight from Greek philosophy, namely Heraclitus' and Plato's works. I encourage you to re-read Romans and Ephesians, both in their entirety along with at least Phaedo and Heraclitus' Fragments. Do note the birthplace of Heraclitus, being Ephesus. After that, take another look at Acts, especially Paul's interactions with the Epicurean and Stoic philosophers, and then read Isaiah and John I again.

>What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God. For what if some did not believe? Shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MiARlwIST-o
>ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος. οὖτος ἦν ἐν ἀρχῇ πρὸς τὸν θεόν. πάντα δι᾽ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο, καὶ χωρὶς αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο οὐδὲ ἕν. ὃ γέγονεν.
>In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Finally, recall mentions of the Breath (πνεῦμα), and if you're still interested, read St. John Chrysostom's homilies and sermons.
https://www.tertullian.org/fathers/chrysostom_adversus_judaeos_01_homily1.htm
>When so many blessings from heaven came into their hands, they thrust them aside and were at great pains to reject them. The morning Sun of Justice arose for them, but they thrust aside its rays and still sit in darkness. We, who were nurtured by darkness, drew the light to ourselves and were freed from the gloom of their error. They were the branches of that holy root, but those branches were broken. We had no share in the root, but we did reap the fruit of godliness. From their childhood they read the prophets, but they crucified him whom the prophets had foretold. We did not hear the divine prophecies but we did worship him of whom they prophesied. And so they are pitiful because they rejected the blessings which were sent to them, while others seized hold of these blessing and drew them to themselves.

>>21387827
>You believe that Christian Universalism, or rather, your proposed version of Christian Universalism, holds that the souls of all men are equal, except for those of the Jews, which are special, chosen, separate, and holy. This is an oxymoron
This is what most christians believe and it is stupid and evil. I think races are not equal and jews are not special or above other races.
>You said you were seeking the Logos
The idea of the logos (logic, rationality, an order to the universe). I actually didn't find the bible to have much logos in it. Just because John and others say Christ is the logos doesn't make it so. I don't see how Christ's actions or being represent the Greek idea of logos and I've never heard and argument for why Christ is logos that isn't tautological (and, ironically, anti-logos or rationality).

>>21382909
I refuse to believe that a 17th century Native American, of all people, would come up with fedora arguments like these, especially when the Amerindian people's beliefs are considered kooky by those same fedora standards.

>>21382909
Honestly a lot of his arguments boil down to the sheer culture shock the religion presents.
>punishing the son for the sins of the father
>dealing with 3000 years of debate, fighting, and schism baked into the context of the religion
>dealing with the idea a perfect being would choose to even deal with the imperfect
I think his analysis about the misery coin produces is just correct however.
t. Irish-American Catholic

>simple arguments
>wall of illegible text
>dubious sourcing
>3rd party agenda
sus.

>>21382909
I would tell him to read Ellul.

I don't get why Christians are so concerned about the Bible
it's just a book written and compiled by men, if you don't like some part of it, ignore it

It's not like we know Jesus wrote it
Jesus could have resurrected and the Bible have nothing to do with him
Bible can contain some truth, but not all truth
it's so silly

>>21387877
As we've already seen a Christian confess in this very thread, God/Jesus is above logic and simply ignores it.

>>21387827
Whether you like it or not, that IS what Christian Universalism means, and has always meant. More importantly, it's what all actual Christians, not LARPy goobers on the internet, view it as meaning, and it's what they've meant for millennia. Gentile philosophers have grappled with this, yes, and they keep coming back to the answer: you can't have your cake and eat it too. It's an inherently contradictory position, on the one hand demanding that all races are equal and thus must be mashed into one body with one culture, one language, and one religion, but also holding that one specific race is special and the cause of all that is good in the world, but also that this race is the one that created the religion that demands that all races be smashed together, but also that they're evil for demanding that they be special, but they're also inherently superior so they get to be special.

You have three choices
>Drop the worship of the Chosen Tribe, but keep the Universalism, and thus become a Pro-Palestine Liberal Progressive
>Drop the Universality, but maintain the worship of the Chosen Tribe, and thus become a Noahide
>Drop both, and thus take up some kind of polytheism and become Asatru (I'm assuming that you're White, you can replace this with whatever ethnoreligion you want)

You don't get a fourth choice, you have to make one, and if you don't make the choice yourself it will be made for you by others.

>>21389959
>Whether you like it or not, that IS what Christian Universalism means
No, it isn't. I'm seriously confused as to why you're insisting it is when a google search would show that you're mistaken.

>In theological usage, universalism is the doctrine that all human beings—and perhaps all intelligent or volitional beings—will come to final salvation and spend an eternity with heaven in God.
>Christian Universalism contends that an individual’s destiny is not fixed at death, and that ultimately everyone will be saved by Christ.
>Christian universalism is a school of Christian theology focused around the doctrine of universal reconciliation – the view that all human beings will ultimately be saved and restored to a right relationship with God.
>Universalism is the belief that ultimately everybody will be saved.
>“universalism” refers to the position that eventually all human beings will be saved and will enjoy everlasting life with Christ.
>Universalism, belief in the salvation of all souls.

>>21384005
let's see one of you faggot

>>21389959
>Whether you like it or not, that IS what Christian Universalism means
it literally isnt you fucking retarded ape, stop making me defend christcuckery

>>21390038
you sound enslaved

>>21385591
>wewuzism followed by schizobabble
the nonsense has escalated

>>21382909
How the fuck am I supposed to read that? I'm not scrolling the page horizontally for you.

>>21382909
Not going to respond to it all, but just off the top of my head...
>on the Bible
The Bible is one of the most accurately preserved documents of all time. Fragments from the dead sea scrolls, from some two thousand years ago, are largely congruous with copies of the Old Testament you'll find printed today. The New Testament was easily the most trascribed document in late antiquity. Despite this, there are almost no serious discrepancies between the various manuscripts from the first century on.
>On the guilt passed on by the first man and woman
People forget that Adam was not simply the first man; he was the blueprint for "man" itself. Thus, when he sinned, it was as if all human consciousness sinned with him. God, in His mercy, rather than simply destroying the pair and starting over provided Man with a way to reconcile himself to God.

>>21391116
Nigga theres a pastebin link like 8 posts down the thread.

>>21385343
>and that time is coming soon.
sure.

>>21382909
I really hate to be lazy, I don't feel well enough to read this whole thread, can someone link to the few posts in this thread that actually gave some kind of response to the content lol I just see a lot of garbage replies.

>>21382924
Even Jesus looked like a Jew.

>>21385362
>There is only one way, believe in Christ and repent, continuously turning from your wicked ways!
And then what? Be perpetually angry that others aren't? I've been there already. There's no real end goal to doing this; no improvement to be found, it's just stagnancy whilst waiting in vain for the end of the world, like others before you, to no consequence.

Also,
>We, OBVIOUSLY, already failed to please Him, and daily do so! This is why Christ became propitiation. The Word tells us it is impossible to please Him.
'we'? Are we Jews?

This is good point for the topic; is a Huron Indian guilty of the sins of the Jews? Is anybody, really? Of course your reformed judaism religion seems demented to those of us who aren't guilty of following or brainwashed into internalizing the evil nonsenses of the abramic culture. I mean, why would a virtuous Man who has no vice (or anyway has worked consciously to eradicate the vices in his own self) pay any attention to what a viceful Man has to say? We should take moral instruction from a person who is addicted to alcohol, has never dealt with his sexual appetites (hates heterosexuality), has stolen, abused, etc., when doing such awful things and being so stupid in the first place as to do them is far removed from our character..

If your basis of railing at others is your own guilt for your own sins, christlarper, then you should begin by learning humility and not lecturing people better than you as if they were like you in their habits.

>>21389989
>>21390038
>okay well my special snowflake definition of...
That was addressed in >>21389959. YOUR specific formulation is irrelevant, because others do not agree with it.

>>21390523
NTA but universality doesn't mean you need to treat all people equally, only that they have the same spiritual potential to receive salvation. A Christian is allowed a great amount of pragmatism in worldly affairs.
The idea is this: You need to achieve the greatest possible good, and if you've deemed that a race is extremely violent when it is given equal status, then you may bring about a greater evil, by attempting to give them "equality." Modern Christianity is literal kike invented Judeo-Christianity(look up the origin of the term. Popularized, though no coined, during the cold war to "unite" Christians with Israel against the soviets in the middle east). You have valid criticisms so long as you are criticizing this judaic kikery, but historically Christianity has not had the sort of egalitarian universalism that is popularly read into it today.

>>21382924
Based

Sometimes I see Asians with extremely Asian faces, like Genghis Khan incarnate, and then they end up talking with a voice like Alan Moore. Always catches me off guard

>>21387877
>logos is logic
miss me with that shit, clive.

>>21387877
>The idea of the logos (logic, rationality, an order to the universe). I actually didn't find the bible to have much logos in it.
This is a fucking good point. Logos is an actual concept in thought and reason (it's science essentially) which goes far longer back in time than the late hebrews. At some point, since this 'conflation' existed, the christians made a conscious effort to replace all instances of Logos/"Science" with the life and character of Jesus - Archimedes would better exemplify Logos for instance - I don't know how or what happened there but it reeks of suspicion and co-option.

Jesus 'can' be seen as a Logos-speaker to his own barbarian Jews, of course, to stop them from mutilating their children genitals, but to say he embodies Logos better than Archimedes or Galen (or any inventor or doer o science) is just mad.

Not sure what is up with this one but I feel it's going to come around eventually and really sting the christians in their pride.

>>21391905
Do you really understand the Logos? The stoics and early Greeks definitely did not conflate it with science when it was attached to metaphysical and moral principles as well.
Which pre-anno domini philosophical/metaphysical school do you refer to when you make these claims about the Logos? If there is a book, I'd like to read it out of curiosity.

>>21382909
https://discord.gg/vwnmJahn

>>21391920
>If there is a book, I'd like to read it out of curiosity.
Ah for sure, Chrysippus is the place to start I suppose. "If this, then this," the process of correct deduction, etc. felix causas, etc etc.,

There actually was a book of Chrysippus unearthed in Pompeii a few years ago, I presume it hasn't been translated or even opened at this point, it being a chunk of charcoal.

>Which pre-anno domini philosophical/metaphysical school do you refer to when you make these claims
Grammatike, of course.

My use of Logos is in its proper 'rhetoric' context as opposing Pathos and Ethos/Ethnos as its inferior siblings or modes of error; with Logos being the only one of the three able to even 'be' right consistently.

compare also to lucomones, lugos, lucos; light, in latin as well as the greek etymology.

>>21391953
I've only read about Chryssipus from secondary sources so I'll get to him as directly as possible. I've studied a lot on the Logos, and I'm just going to say that the view of Logos being co-opted by Christian ethics isn't something that is well supported, although I do want to see where you're coming from.
I'm typing on a phone so I won't go into detail but the idea is that there is a rational cause and effect to the world and Christ represents the Logos as someone that fully accepts this cause and effect. There's an interesting(although admittedly not detailed) podcast on the topic here: https://notrelated.xyz/audio/s02/S02E02_-_Stoicism_and_Christianity_Trust_the_Logos.ogg
The podcast is the simplest and quickest way to demonstrate this although books will be necessary regardless. Thanks for the recommendation to read Chrysippus anon.

You do have a very good point on Logos being, essentially, science, although the fact that morality and ethics were also part of the metaphysical science is something that may require attention.

>>21383991
When you're brought up and live in nature you're forced to develop a natural physical sort of intelligence for your very survival. Watch a season of Alone, anprim lifestyle takes a specific type of spatial intelligence that moderns (incl natives) absolutely do not possess.

>>21391990
>Logos being co-opted by Christian ethics isn't something that is well supported, although I do want to see where you're coming from.
>I'm typing on a phone so I won't go into detail but the idea is that there is a rational cause and effect to the world and Christ represents the Logos as someone that fully accepts this cause and effect.
That's the point though; if Logos (as science) is the method of discerning and then submitting to cause and effect, then this being equated to a literal deity from a foreign religion is like the inverse to the logos of Galen or Archimedes.

Best case scenario it may offer a proof that Jesus was never taken literally in the way that they demanded he be taken literally in the later centuries; a secular Jesus talking the Abramics out of their primitive theology makes the only real sense to me in how the Roman Stoics would have been sold on the idea (which they certainly were somehow). eh anyway, have fun with Chrysippus :D

> morality and ethics were also part of the metaphysical science is something that may require attention
oh that's the easiest part of it in my opinion; how else do you explain virtue vs. vice to anybody if you can't explain it using cause and effect? sloth vs. diligence, moderation vs. indulgence, etc. it's far simpler than the labyrinthine theological attempts to convey 'similar' (albeit falsely equating vices as if they were virtues; vice of pride in one own religion,etc.)

>>21391990
>Christ represents the Logos as someone that fully accepts this cause and effect.
I hate to sound like a 2000's atheist (and I'm a pantheist a la Hitler, if that matters), but this assumes we've accepted jewish theology as true. Why would we, especially as gentiles, do that?
It would seem to me that any other mythic figure could be said to be fulfilling logos just as well. If we take the nordic religion as a given, then Odin hanging on a tree and learning the runes or Thor slaying that giant serpent during ragnarok would be fulfilling logos. It seems arbitrary unless you can back up the assumption that jewsih theology is right and true. Observing the world and using rationality (logos) has not led me to believe that.

>>21392566
>I hate to sound like a 2000's atheist (and I'm a pantheist a la Hitler, if that matters),
Yeah whatever that's fine. Any sort of non-material ideology is based on supernatural intuitions like faith(granted by the spiritual) or divine revelation. You can't prove a theological framework to "be true" because we can only use the material to construct proofs. If your beliefs could be proven by material observations, then they aren't spiritual or theological, they are just as yet unexplained physics. Your question "Why would we, especially as gentiles, do that?" seems to imply that you want someone to demonstrate that belief in the Christian God could be materially beneficial to you within your own theological framework, which is a bit nonsensical. I may have misunderstood.
Jewish theology doesn't actually view Christ as the embodiment of the Logos. The Jews have a purely material theology- as in, there is no spiritual afterlife and Jews will be physically resurrected. Modern day Jews are descendants of the Pharisees, and their highly materialistic theology is criticized by Jesus many times in the Gospels.
Christian theology, on the other hand, views Christ as someone that is perfectly in tune with the Logos; his will is exactly one with the Logos. He may feel regret, or sadness, or joy at events, but in all cases He understands that what happens is simply meant to be. That does not mean, as Judeo-Christians believe, that one should just do whatever because "God will sort it out" but that one must fulfill his duty and take his place as part of the Logos.

I've gone on a bit of a tangent, but what I'm trying to say is that you can't pick and choose what's true, you must find out yourself. If you try your best, and if there is a supernatural order which can confer to you intuition on the true nature of the spiritual order, then it is a given that you will find it. On the other hand, if there really isn't and you are never bestowed divine revelation, then yeah just believe whatever is beneficial for your aims.
If you say that "all gods are true, but we should pick which one we want to believe" then that's a very naive tik-tok thot kind of belief to hold. Just wanted to address that final possibility.

>>21391905
>It's science essentially

>itt: anons applying middle-school english class rhetoric to greek philosophy

>>21384325
Logic is not about perception, it is not an empirical tool. It is about reason beyond perception. No one can physically witness a convergent infinite sequence converging by nature of the fact of there being infinitely many intermediate terms, but we can deduce via logic that it does in fact converge.

>>21383069
>because they have to justify their faith in the Resurrection.
You nigger that is the only thing I do not have to justify

>>21382909
Yeah I know the answers to all that but I'm on my phone so I'm not gonna tell you. Sorry.

>>21393066
Logic is a tool for considering intuitive processes that are commensurate in some way as identities when it is useful to do so, like conceiving of an infinite series of points as a continuum because it makes calculus "work"

Ultimately the original things being taken as identities (continua, infinite series of points) have to be intuitive (because all thoughts must ultimately rest on or resolve into some kind of intuitively graspable thoughts), and the abstract principle whereby the two intuitive things are taken as one thing for a specific purpose has to be intuitive (logical syntax is intuitive)

But is it "deduced" that infinite points "really do" make a continuum in some "logical" realm? No

>>21391466
You're lazy. Read the Word and meditate on it.

>>21390601
>conveniently overlooks the horrors perpetuated by the prevailing atheist schools of thought
So emotionally motivated.

>>21382909
did you actually expect people to read all this?