/lit/ - Literature

>>21391828
Anon did you read Urth, and Long/Short Sun? /lit/ will tell you otherwise, but it's hard to find fantasy that seems similar to Wolfe's level.

>>21391846
I read in another thread that Jack Vance and Ursula le Guin comes close. And, no, I haven't read Urth yet, that will be the next book I read.

>>21391858
jack vance was a direct influence on wolfe, definitely a good recommendation. Le Guin is also great but I read her a while ago and I don't remember her being that similar to wolfe, but she is definitely good.
And heads up, lots of BOTNS threads get derailed by a long-ass copypasta that gets posted so try not to get baited by it.

>>21391864
Yeah I've read those copypastas before, I didn't really intend for this thread to be only about BOTNS but fantasy in general not necessarily with a similar feel but anything similar would be appreciated.

>>21391828
Robert E. Howard

>>21391828
>>21391846
>>21391858
>>21391864
>>21391873
BOTNS=Dying earth for zoomer babbies

>>21391965
name 1 book you have read

>>21391971
Dying earth by jack vance
mogs book of the reddit sun easily

>>21392001
I guess you missed the part where both OP and I talk about vance being his next book to read. It's okay, reading is hard for people with autism. I forgive you.

>>21392007
I guess you missed the part where BOTNs is rightly dogshit masturbatory trash for zoomers who've never read a dying earth novel before?

>>21392028
>zoomers zoomers reddit trash
do you have any opinion that isn't comprised entirely of buzzwords? spoiler:nope

>>21392033
because BOTNS is trash
I don't need to say anything more than that
Shitty masturbatory reddit-tier prose that you retards jack off over because it's, like, le catholic and le unreliable narrator

>>21392035
>I don't need to say anything more than that
and yet you are still here

>>21392035
Serious question, when was the last time you had sex?

>>21391828
Yes, book of the long sun, book of the short sun
Take a break before reading long sun though and read Wizard Knight
Then read the Lyonesse series by Vance
It's kino that revolves around fairy rape

>>21392036
Why shouldn't I be here?
>>21392037
Two years ago
still more sex than what the average botns fanboy gets
>>21392038
No, don't read anything by Wolfe

Wizard Knight is how I typically introduce my friends to Wolfe
It's not super long like the solar cycle but it's enough to get them back into reading

Overall, I found nothing unique in Wolfe. Perhaps it's because I've read quite a bit of odd fantasy; if all I read was mainstream stuff, then I'd surely find Wolfe unpredictable, since he is a step above them. But compared to Leiber, Howard, Dunsany, Eddison, Kipling, Haggard, Peake, Mieville, or Moorcock, Wolfe is nothing special.

Perhaps I just got my hopes up too high. I imagined something that might evoke Peake or Leiber (at his best), perhaps with a complexity and depth gesturing toward Milton or Ariosto. I could hardly imagine a better book than that, but even a book half that good would be a delight--or a book that was nothing like that, but was unpredictable and seductive in some other way.

I kept waiting for something to happen, but it never really did. It all plods along without much rise or fall, just the constant moving action to make us think something interesting is happening. I did find some promise, some moments that I would have loved to see the author explore, particularly those odd moments where Silver Age Sci Fi crept in, but each time he touched upon these, he would return immediately to the smallness of his plot and his annoying prick of a narrator. I never found the book to be difficult or complex, merely tiring. the unusual parts were evasive and vague, and the dull parts constant and repetitive.

The whole structure (or lack of it) does leave things up to interpretation, and perhaps that's what some readers find appealing: that they can superimpose their own thoughts and values onto the narrator, and onto the plot itself. But at that point, they don't like the book Wolfe wrote, they like the book they are writing between his lines.

>>21392044
Why don't you like Wolfe
I'm ruined by him
His girthy lit cock stretched my reading vagina wide open and now nothing else can satisfy me

>>21392044
>he actually told us the last time he had sex
just leave anon, this is embarassing.
>>21392051
here's the copypasta, ignore.

>>21392052
freak
>>21392045
so you introduce your friends to navel gazing trash?
how unfortunate they must be

>>21392058
Pseud, ignoring you now

Then there is the fact that every character you meet in the story turns up again, hundreds of miles away, to reveal that they are someone else and have been secretly controlling the action of the plot. It feels like the entire world is populated by about fifteen people who follow the narrator around wherever he goes. If the next two books continue along the same lines, then the big reveal will be that the world is entirely populated by no more than three superpowered shapeshifters.

Everyone in the book has secret identities, secret connections to grand conspiracies, and important plot elements that they conveniently hide until the last minute, only doling out clues here and there. There are no normal people in this world, only double agents and kings in disguise. Every analysis I've read of this book mentions that even the narrator is unreliable.

This can be an effective technique, but in combination with a world of infinite, unpredictable intrigue, Wolfe's story begins to evoke something between a soap opera and a convoluted mystery novel, relying on impossible and contradictory scenarios to mislead the audience. Apparently, this is the thing his fans most appreciate about him--I find it to be an insulting and artificial game.

I agree with this reviewer that there is simply not enough structure to the story to make the narrator's unreliability meaningful. In order for unreliable narration to be effective, there must be some clear and evident counter-story that undermines it. Without that, it is not possible to determine meaning, because there's nowhere to start: everything is equally shaky.

At that point, it's just a trick--adding complexity to the surface of the story without actually producing any new meaning. I know most sci fi and fantasy authors seem to love complexity for its own sake, but it's a cardinal sin of storytelling: don't add something into your story unless it needs to be there. Covering the story with a lot of vagaries and noise may impress some, but won't stand up to careful reading.

>>21392055
>>21392059
wolfefags BTFO once again

>>21392062
>unique posters hasn't changed
>he's samefagging to try and say we're BTFO
THIS mad all because of one author? That's fucking sad. I genuinely feel pity for you.

>>21392071
Says the wolfefag who spends years on /lit/ shilling his fat, hack author
I don't read books written by fat people. simple as

>>21392076
I like wolfe even more now that I know it triggers retards like you so easily. I personally think Wolfe is the greatest sff writer ever, and possibly one of the best in all of literature.

>>21392081
Delusional Wolfe fan
Fat people cannot write good literature. It's that simple

>>21392082
And yet Wolfe was quite fat, but wrote the best sff series of all time...

>>21392086
>but wrote the best sff series of all time...
No he didn't

>>21392090
and yet, he did...

>>21392062
>>21392071
>>21392076
>>21392081
>>21392082
>>21392086
>>21392090
>>21392092
get a room you two

>>21392038
Long Sun and Short Sun are excellent. I really enjoyed them for different reasons than thr New Sun and Urth. I just wish there was more.

>>21392101
have you read the short stories? The Cat, The Map, The Night Chough etc.

>>21392105
No. I am planning to read them soon. The Night Cough especially. I love Oreb!

>>21392099
>>21392101
>>21392105
reddit

>>21392110
>fish heads!
he's the best

>>21392111
>buzzwords
>copypasta
>samefagging
>getting triggered
none of it has worked, and you are still here. Wolfe lives in your head without paying any rent, doesn't he, anon?

>>21392113
>good bird!
⌒(ё)⌒

Why do Wolfe admirers pretend these books are obscure or underrated when it tops the charts of every sci-fi magazine, has won many awards and the saga is frequently mentioned as the most popular after Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings and Dune?
Strangest case of self delusion i've have seen yet.

>>21392129
why do you care?

>>21392129
Literally never seen it mentioned as much as it is on here. Wolfe discussion is pretty much absent on reddit and LOTR, Dune and harry potter are household names. Most people aren't familiar with BOTNS

>>21391828
>inb4 someone shills gormenghast as some hidden gem

OP you could try the Deathstalker series by Simon Green. Kind of a Byzantine, Machiavellian scifi-fantasy mix unlike anything I have ever read.

>>21392156
>Wolfe discussion is pretty much absent on reddit
just searched it up, he has his own reddit page dedicated to him you retard

>>21392170
what's wrong with Gormenghast?

>>21391858
Yeah Le Guin gets mentioned often as literary fantasy, not my cup of tea.
If you want quality of language, and originality, look at the Victorian age. I don't think any of them are like Wolfe, but nobody is.

>>21392247
>I don't think any of them are like Wolfe, but nobody is.
Yeah, they're far better than a fat catholic and his dying earth plagiarism

>>21392249
I doubt you've read much of them tbqh. Btw, Wolfe was a crypto-polytheist.
Btw, my refutation of Keely is unrefuted.

>>21392262
I literally have morris and mcdonald novels from the victorian age
You retard
And you haven't refuted keely at all
Wolfe isn't original. He just copied vance+ashton smith

>And you haven't refuted keely at all
He takes it in the bussy everytime now.
>>21365438
>>21365532
He's a pseud. He probably also pretends to own and read Victorian books.

>>21391828

>>21392281
you didn't disprove any of what keely said
>b-but
Yeah, I do own victorian books
And I'm not fat unlike wolfe
>>21392298
BOTNS is the worst rendition of the dying earth genre

>>21392298
I respect the person responsible for this for steadfastly refusing to include GRRM's Dying of the Light.

>>21392306
What the fuck do you have against Wolfe so much? Was Jolenta your waifu? Are you mad Wolfe not raped her? I know people cumming over and over making threads about something can be annoying, like Blood Meridian as well, but this does not make BOTNS bad at all like you imply.

>>21392322
Some people can't cope with being made to feel stupid.

>>21392322
Because Wolfe is a mid tier author who you retarded pseuds elevate to a godly level for no particular reason
He is middling in every way. if you autistic wolfe fanboys who had never read any fiction but LOTR or sandershit before you picked up wolfe stopped spouting shit like "he is better than proust" or "wolfe invented the dying earth genre" I wouldn't give a shit about him, but because you retards keep shilling /lit/ with your garbage I will continue to crusade against wolfe

>>21392356
Wolfe is midwit the author.
Which is why he appeals to this board so much

>>21391828
Eisenhorn
Horus heresy
ASOIAF
Odyssey
Bible
Borges
Lovecraft

>>21392364
Proust is shit though.

Good fantasy:

Lower end fantasy, less genre fiction.
Borges - absolutely top tier of all writers in the 20th century. Fictions is a good place to start. Library of Babel is a classic.

Pelevin - popular Russian author. Stories are in a modern setting but have magical elements. I didn't like the werewolf book as much but Helmet of Horror and Homozapiens is excellent.

Murakami - weird Japanese fantasy. IQ84 is a cool sprawling epic about a parallel 1984.

I'm also a big fan of 100 Years of Solitude, a classic magical realism book.

More genre fiction focused -
Bakker - The Darkness That Comes Before is my absolute favorite genre fiction. It's less literary than Wolfe, with more roots in the classical mold of the genre.

Hyperion is sci-fi but there are some fantastical elements there too. It's a retelling of the Canterbury Tales, quite good.

For more of a historical fiction type experience, Game of Thrones is actually pretty good, even if the show fell apart.

Also a big fan of pic related although it's not very literary, just fun.

>>21392364
That's pathetic m8
Not good enough reason to be so mad

>>21391828
You have finished with the one of the princes of fantasy. Now you must read the King, the Emperor, Abu Bakker, pbuh.

>>21392422
There's occasionally debate here as to whether Borges and magic realism is fantasy per se. It's too bad, I posted about Pedro Paramo in the general and got no engagement. Fantasy is a huge and rich category if looked at beyond the confines of commercial genre fiction as inspired by Tolkien.

I hated The wizard knight. Is this actually better?

>>21392477
Yeah, New Sun is better than Wizard Knight. But if you didn't like the latter, without being able to read your mind why you didn't like it, it's pretty safe to say you won't like the former.

>>21392422
Thank you, the only non-cringe post in this thread.

So I'm a quarter through Shadow of the Torturer. Protag just fucked up and killed his waifu.
Does this book get better? Will it continue being a story solely about this coming of age secret-born royal kid? The imagery of this world is ok but only through further contemplation of my own. The writing itself doesn't paint too much of a picture.
I came to this after reading The Black Company because I wanted a more mind bender style fantasy novel and always heard of BOTNS as really heady stuff. A little disappointed so far

>>21392477
If you hated The Wizard Knight you might just hate Wolfe, but most people consider BOTNS to be his best work. I like Long Sun a little more personally.

>>21391828
Wolfe is shit

>>21392507
>Protag just fucked up and killed his waifu.
That literally does not happen.

>>21392507
>The imagery of this world is ok but only through further contemplation of my own
That's the entire point. There is no accurate description of the world in BOTNS which is why any visual adaptation of it is bound to fail in some regards. Even the covers/artwork are all entirely misreading. The reader is expected to put in a lot of work when reading Wolfe.

>>21392507
>Does this book get better?
If you are genuinely asking this then yes, you are literally at the point where it starts to get much better and more expansive

>>21392641
ACSHHULLAYY it could be implied Severian sentenced Thecla to death after she basically called him a little boy. He got butthurt and hurried/stamped the papers needed for her torture to commence.

>>21392879
dumbest post on /lit/. This would entirely invalidate the series.

>>21392933
why would it invalidate the series?

>>21392933
>>21392879

>>21392364
You are in every single Wolfe thread 24/7 derailing the threads for over 3 months now. Go get a fucking job NEET.

>>21391828
After I read BOTNS/Urth/Book of the Long Sun I went to Iain M. Banks 'Inversions' as a palette cleanser. It's part of 'The Culture' series but only subtly so. Then I read 'Player of Games' and 'Use of Weapons' and tried to start Book of the Short Sun but just couldn't really get into it. In a very loosely similar theme, Roger Zelazny's 'Lord of Light' is a really fun book to read after talking about BOTNS for a long time. Book of the Long Sun in particular feels unironically like a late 90's Studio Ghibli film and I started to wonder to what extent Wolfe's influences were in Japan, or how much Japan's influences were on Wolfe.

Can you redpill me on BOTNS?

what are your recommendations for writing fantasy?

>>21393090
Thecla would become aware of Severian's execution order which would have led to serious cognitive dissonance after the fake Feast of St. Catherine and every subsequent memory recollection. However, this only works if you believe that Thecla and Severian really did become 'one' after the ritual, and if they did, does this act as the primary motivator for Severian's convenient failures of memory recollection? I postulate that Severian uses the concept of Thecla and her memories when convenient for him but in actuality she is a tool, like all the other women in Severian's life- except for Dorcas, who acts as the eventual cornerstone of his redemption and apotheosis.

>>21391828
Obviously Lotr/Silmarillion and the Dune books (at least the first 4). Bakker is incredible as well, he gets shilled here for good reason.

>>21392422
I tried to learn Spanish just so I could read Borges, his books are easy to get in Spanish, but I gave up. Maybe I should try again. Him, Asimov, Vonnegut were my favorite in high school.

>>21393930
wolfefag seething as usual
and there are multiple people on this board who despise your shitty fat fuck author

>>21394185
You will never be a woman.

>>21394207
Wolfe is beloved by trannies worldwide like yourself

>>21392477
I don't know why these motherfuckers always recommend Wizard Knight to noobs. Trying to "ease in" people to Wolfe with Wizard Knight is retarded because it's just not a very great book. It's okay, but it reminds me of schlocky teen fantasy lit I used to read in middle school. Just recommend BotNS, for fucks sake. It isn't too complex and you look like a dickhead for looking down on people for thinking it would be too complex for them.

>>21394277
>It isn't too complex and you look like a dickhead for looking down on people for thinking it would be too complex for them.
You severally over estimate retard normies

>>21391828
Lord of the Rings
Gormenghast
The Deep
The Broken Sword
Assassin's Apprentice
Song of Ice and Fire
Darkness That Comes Before
Black Leopard Red Wolf

>>21392170
Are you so insecure about being told that you're an idiot every time you bash Gormenghast that you have to bring the novel up before anyone else? It's also not a hidden gem anon, since a lot of people into literature are well aware of those novels

>>21394748
The Deep is an amazing little gem

>>21391846
>lit/ will tell you otherwise, but it's hard to find fantasy that seems similar to Wolfe's level.
I will absolutely not tell him otherwise. The other writers of sci fi and fantasy are mostly all shit, especially the pretentious retards of the last 20 years

>>21392035
>reddit-tier prose
The series is literally unheard of there because it isn’t written by some lgb fag or a woman or some tiktoker

Is there a thread or board about writing fantasy or writing in general? apart from the critique thread here

>>21395175
Writing fantasy you'd want /wbg/ ok /tg/

>>21395181
Don't go to /tg/. They scared off everyone capable of productivity or creativity years ago. They have guys with autism so severe they have to bump the same thread from page 10 for literal months, the worst janitors, and a general fear of reading books let alone writing them.

>>21395203
>and a general fear of reading books let alone writing them.
So, they're /lit/ approved?

>>21395138
It isn't unheard of though
Stupid wolfefag

>>21395484
>nearly 100 posts later and he's still seething in the thread
hilarious. Say hi to the Wolfe that lives in your head for me!

>>21395566
Damn wolfefags really can't stand it when their shitty anime oc tier book series gets the criticism it so rightfully deserves

>>21395589
>the Wolfe inside anons head takes a deep breath, using his big belly to aid him in a bellowing guttural laughter that rings anons ears, making him sob and seethe until the end of time
Something about wolfe triggering autists like you so easily makes me like him more

>>21395594
You really are a freak
Wolfe is dead and I spit on his grave

>>21395138
All I get from this post is that he's chudcore

>>21395633
On a scale of 1 to absolutely seething how mad are you right now? Does Wolfe haunt your nightmares? Is he in the room with us now?

>>21395651
Sorry anon, he's just not that good

>>21395655
Nobody cares that you think he is bad or have a different opinion, but you are still in this thread trying to own the wolfefags even after 100 replies. Have you ever stopped to think WHY you haven't had sex in 2 years?

Fantasy is such an underrated genre around here. Here are some suggestions:
>RE Howard's Conan, Kull, and Bran Mac Morn
>Vance's Lyonesse and Dying Earth
>King Dunsany's King of Elfland's Daughter
>CA Smith's Zothique chronicles
>Ford's The Dragon Waiting
>Tolkien's Children of Hurin, The Silmarillion
>Peake's Gormenghast trilogy (with the novella Boy in Darkness)
>Clarke's Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell
>Lieber's Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser stories
>Schweitzer Mask Of The Sorcerer
I could list many more that I've enjoyed but I'm scatterbrained after work. pic unrelated

>>21395651
>>21395663
wolfefags literally think their middling sci fi author is better than proust and joyce
LMAO

>>21395679
>King Dunsany's King of Elfland's Daughter
A classic. How did I forget that one?

>>21395682
>t. hasn't had sex in 2 years and has to put words in their opponents mouth to win an argument
wew lad you are relentless, keep seething

>>21395688
Says the retard who puts a sci fi author next to proyce and joyce
you're a laughingstock

>>21395693
and yet you're still here, still obsessing over that sci fi author...

>>21391971
le bibble

>>21395696
and yet you're still responding to me because you're mad that wolfe got BTFO

>>21395727
but I'm just a lowly wolfefag, what is your excuse for the obsession, mr intellectual?

>>21395733
because you wolfefags shill your middling book for years and pretend its better than joyce and proust

>>21395770
>been on 4chan for years
>doesn't realise he could just filter the word 'wolfe'

>>21395776
I prefer btfoing wolfefags instead

>>21395828
So wolfe does live in your head rent free? I have a feeling you think about wolfe more than any 'wolfefag' ever would, if you are so obsessed with stopping anybody from reading him... how sad for you

>>21395833
nah i reply to wolfefags when they make their shitty threads to shill their shitty author and make them seethe, as you are doing now

>>21395844
wow! You must love wolfe a lot to dedicate so much of your free time yo him! That's very admirable anon!

>>21395848
Still seething over being BTFO
pretty sad really

>>21395921
Keep going anon! Such a good boy!

The Shelf that broke /sffg/‘s BUCK

>>21392035
>le catholic
>le unreliable narrator
Seethe and cope harder, libtard.

>A day in the life of your average Anti-wolfe retard

>>21391828
Check out Adrian Tchaikovksy’s stand alone Dying Earth novel “Cage of Souls”

>>21392364
Where do you think you are? /lit/ or at least /sffg/ which comes to any fantasy thread has four main groups: people who only read litrpgs and anime web novels or fan fic, normal fantasy and sci-fi fans who like the genre (smallest group), people who think Wolfe is Dante, Proust, and Plato rolled into one writer, and people who think Bakker is Christ, Mohammed, and the Buddha rolled into one Canadian.

Wolfefags will call you a plebe if you say anything less than glowing about their genius. A Bakkerfags threatened to cut my eyes out and show me my eyeless face once (they really didn't follow their master in the whole neuroscience thing and how eyes work...) for insulting the "warrior-prophet."

It's like /pol/ if there were two different Trumps to follow.

>>21392422
Good Recs here OP.

Pelevin hasn't made quite the splash in the Anglosphere that he has elsewhere, but is very good. Helmet of Horror is an incredibly quick read. Borges is awesome.

The pic is Red Rising and is more of a straight action adventure series. Just be aware that the first book is a huge filter. It isn't bad, but it is a bit more silly and was edited down for the YA market. You get something much better instead of more of the same with Book II.

Hyperion is more like traditional Genre fiction that Wolfe so if you haven't read much I would start there and see if you like it. Bakker is even more like traditional genre fiction. Despite being written by a philosophy PhD and being heavy on ideas, the ideas are all delivered in the context of a large scale fantasy conflict based on the First Crusade, generally as part of the world. A lot is characters restating famous positions in philosophy and showing the intersections and debates, but using a magic system where metaphysics affects magic in a cool way. But this is encased in lots of world building, battles, etc. and so I don't think it would appeal to non -fantasy fans.

>>21396186
>A Bakkerfags threatened to cut my eyes out and show me my eyeless face once
least zealous bakker fan

>>21395679
>Schweitzer Mask Of The Sorcerer
more people need to read this

>>21396126
got some more shiet recently

>>21394277
Gene Wolfe's 'The Sorcerer's House' is the schlocky Teen Fantasy of Gene Wolfe, pure goosebumps-esque Greek fantasy tropes everywhere. I'm not sure how the Wizard/Knight falls into that category. But yes, people should just read Shadow+Claw and if they don't like it by the end of Claw they should give up and read something else.

>>21391828
Please read Dying Earth if you haven't already.

>>21391828
The gods of pegana.

>>21396137

>>21396722
Nice dude. Love your shelf - how do you feel about /sffg/ drones spamming it? Lovely copy of Pastel City, although I went for the 4-in-1 omnibus as I have limited shelf space.

>>21396722
Are there any modern fantasy authors that you enjoy anon? eg Clarke, Miéville?

>>21397879
ya this guy even though this is a book from the 90s, he still is doing stuff. >>21396716 And I recently read Between Two Fires because it was memed hard. Was alright. Next I need to get onto the prince of nothing. Do you recommend any modern writers?

>>21397582
Thanks. I'm glad people are there to share it but if I knew it would be spammed I would have fixed it up/added more things to it. I'll update it sometime

>>21395770
Well, Wolfe may not be better than Proust, but Mervyn Peake definitely is with his writing in Gormenghast. Proust had about half a book that was top tier, and then it just started meandering

>>21397513
>OYYYYYY I OWNED LE HECKIN CHRISTKEKS BROOOOOS
Just admitted that BOTNS filtered you.

>>21396722
Awesome stuff
>>21397455
Who is the "Nihilist" guy a reference to? Fatalist guy is giga based.

>>21398277
How did you acquire these fine specimens?

>>21398527
the internet. The third issue basically doesn't exist for some reason but the first 2 are easy to get

>>21391828
Wolfe is shit.

It's a manga but Blame! might interest you

>>21398393
cope

>>21399437
hey I like Nick Fuentes

>>21395650
he is a bit.
>>21392364
Honestly, the fact that you came into this thread with these ridiculously incorrect points and keep harping the same things imply that you've got some form of mental illness. I'm guessing you're trans or something or maybe you're like a le epin leftist culturewarrior who doesn't like a book being pushed that isn't boring narrative marvel shit.
BOTNS has great prose, this isn't up for debate. The storyline is first class and it's a book that literally gets better the more you read and understand it, which is rare in literature as a whole. It's not my fault you're an illiterate retard so stop shitting up threads with your nonsense.