/lit/ - Literature

k

>>21359681
I havent read and have no stakes in the topic.
but what do you mean it "references the classics?"
like, classic pulp, or classics like The Iliad, or Classics Like Moby dick.

>>21359681
Hyperion did a better job of integrating classics in genre fiction.

>>21359681
People judge this without reading the entire series. That's like reviewing Star Wars based on the prequel trilogy.

>>21359681
Wolfe is a hack.

>>21359681
most reviewers are full of shit, whats new

>>21360272
He has a cool name though.

>>21359681
BOTNS is good because it is fun to read, and it is fun to read because the episodes and characters are memorable and the style is appealing, simple as

>>21359681
The Shadow of the Torturer by Gene Wolfe, monsieur?

Every character you meet in the story turns up again, hundreds of miles away, to reveal that they are someone else and have been secretly controlling the action of the plot. It feels like the entire world is populated by about fifteen people who follow the narrator around wherever he goes. If the next two books continue along the same lines, then the big reveal will be that the world is entirely populated by no more than three superpowered shapeshifters.

Everyone in the book has secret identities, secret connections to grand conspiracies, and important plot elements that they conveniently hide until the last minute, only doling out clues here and there. There are no normal people in this world, only double agents and kings in disguise. Every analysis I've read of this book mentions that even the narrator is unreliable.

This can be an effective technique, but in combination with a world of infinite, unpredictable intrigue, Wolfe's story begins to evoke something between a soap opera and a convoluted mystery novel, relying on impossible and contradictory scenarios to mislead the audience. Apparently, this is the thing his fans most appreciate about him—I find it to be an insulting and artificial game.

There is simply not enough structure to the story to make the narrator's unreliability meaningful. In order for unreliable narration to be effective, there must be some clear and evident counter-story that undermines it. Without that, it is not possible to determine meaning, because there's nowhere to start: everything is equally shaky.

At that point, it's just a trick—adding complexity to the surface of the story without actually producing any new meaning. I know most sci-fi and fantasy authors seem to love complexity for its own sake, but it's a cardinal sin of storytelling: don't add something into your story unless it needs to be there. Covering the story with a lot of vagaries and noise may impress some, but won't stand up to careful reading.

>>21360841
>meaning
filtered
reminder that Keely literally does not enjoy reading and does it only for the sake of "analysis" (as a substitute for philosophy)
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show/56796222?book_show_action=true&from_review_page=1
>I don't really like reading, which must strain credulity, since I devote so much of my time and energy to doing it. But reading, for me, is never an easy thing.
>And yet I am the one who writes the reviews, whose mind whirls and reels with layered meanings and critical analysis. So I keep reading, though it is can be a chore, as my brain must always perk up and churn along, processing and considering.

>>21360858
That makes his observations more sober since we're dealing with a neutral mind rather than a fanatic. Sorry, wolfefag, but no amount of dirt will refute him.

>>21360901
A person who does not enjoy literature is not exactly the most qualified mind on literature

>>21360911
He never said he doesn't enjoy literature. If fact he's quite fond of the fantasy genre by his own admission. He has a particular taste and particular favorites. You can try to disqualify him all you want but that only means you can't refute his opinion so you attack him as a person instead.

>>21360927
>He never said he doesn't enjoy literature
"I don't really like reading" how is such a statement to be interpreted
>You can try to disqualify him all you want but that only means you can't refute his opinion
Already did, he finds the complexity unpleasant because it fails in "producing new meaning", which an unjust criticism since meaning is not the end of literature, which he cannot grasp because he does not really like reading, which means his opinion is worthless
Look at his reviews, look at his prose, he is just a coxcomb

>>21359681
it's a good book. I didn't like how Severian is supposedly such a ladies' man. I felt the same when reading the savage detectives.
like come on, man.

>>21360841
Good review.

>>21360858
Keep seething retarded wolfefag.

Reading or not reading based on someone else's opinion. You're being a sheep. Baaaaaa.

>>21360272
filtered

>>21359681
I was reading Soldier in the Mist and Soldier of Arete again, and honestly, they're not quite as a good as I remember them being.

>>21359681
I like Wolfe's writing because it's like a Fromsoft game in novel form.

>>21361325
The same story over and over again?

>>21361934
That, and also it's vague in such a way as to encourage endless pretentious speculation.

>>21362519
you must admit that it promotes retention and interest and thought.

>>21362530
I enjoy BOTNS and Fromsoft games and am glad they exist. Doesn't mean that >>21360841

is wrong though. They both have a case of Small World Syndrome and Pretentious Speculation Disorder.

>>21361325
boring and obscurist?

>>21359681
I was interested in The Book of New Sun cause it’s dark fantasy apparently. I have 0 information on it, how many books are there and where should I start for the optimal reading experience?

>>21362551
Not denying, just that its demonstrably an effective method of engagement.
there are many things that are engaging and spawn exceptionally pretentious shit as a result of the open endedness.

Bottum line: Vatividya or whoever whoever the lore youtuber is should be making BotNS content for view farming.

>>21360841
You literally didn't understand the book nor do you fully understand Severian as a character.

>>21362552
obscurist?
yes.
A hack?
quite possibly.
boring?
demonstrably incorrect.

>>21362583
Maybe boring wasn't the word but Souls games are tedious, especially the first ones. I doubt Wolfe is like that, whatever his faults.

>>21362577
>Vatividya or whoever whoever the lore youtuber is should be making BotNS content for view farming.
This genuinely makes me wonder if Vaati and the elden ring lore youtubers would obsess over BOTNS in the same way. From should make their next game in that universe.
>dying world
>only a few characters who do anything
>endless lore speculation from minor lines of text
It's so perfect for the souls style of game.

>>21362578
Elaborate.

>>21362605
No.

>>21362608
He remains unrefuted then.

>>21362603
agreed.
though my gatekeeping contrianism would probably hate it as well when all the filthy casuals start talking about BotNS and repeating shit takes.

>>21362611
Good.

>>21360272
>>21360379
The man is dead, you invertebrate

>>21359681
>>21359686
>>21360272
>>21360379
>>21360829
>>21360841
>>21360858
>>21360901
>>21360911
>>21360927
>>21360933
>>21361058
>>21361073
>>21361317
>>21361325
>>21362625
BOTNS=Dying earth for zoomer babbies
remember the time a bunch of wolfefags claimed that wolfe invented the dying earth subgenre?

>>21362638
He did. Who else did otherwise? Wolfe is almost as influential as Tolkien, just wait.

>>21362638
No one ever said that

>>21362638
>Dying earth for zoomer babbies
That's dark souls. Zoomers don't read.

>>21362643
stupid fucking wolfe fanboy
>>21362654
>No one ever said that
The guy above you just did
and your shitty chart even states that BOTNS is the "best rendition" of the dying earth genre AHAHAHAH
>>21362663
Zoomers flood into this board after reading BOTNS claiming that it invented the dying earth genre and that he's the greatest author ever
these retards have no knowledge of any fantasy pre 1980s, the are subhuman midwits

Overall, I found nothing unique in Wolfe. Perhaps it's because I've read quite a bit of odd fantasy; if all I read was mainstream stuff, then I'd surely find Wolfe unpredictable, since he is a step above them. But compared to Leiber, Howard, Dunsany, Eddison, Kipling, Haggard, Peake, Mieville, or Moorcock, Wolfe is nothing special.

Perhaps I just got my hopes up too high. I imagined something that might evoke Peake or Leiber (at his best), perhaps with a complexity and depth gesturing toward Milton or Ariosto. I could hardly imagine a better book than that, but even a book half that good would be a delight--or a book that was nothing like that, but was unpredictable and seductive in some other way.

I kept waiting for something to happen, but it never really did. It all plods along without much rise or fall, just the constant moving action to make us think something interesting is happening. I did find some promise, some moments that I would have loved to see the author explore, particularly those odd moments where Silver Age Sci Fi crept in, but each time he touched upon these, he would return immediately to the smallness of his plot and his annoying prick of a narrator. I never found the book to be difficult or complex, merely tiring. the unusual parts were evasive and vague, and the dull parts constant and repetitive.

The whole structure (or lack of it) does leave things up to interpretation, and perhaps that's what some readers find appealing: that they can superimpose their own thoughts and values onto the narrator, and onto the plot itself. But at that point, they don't like the book Wolfe wrote, they like the book they are writing between his lines.

>>21362643
>Who else did otherwise?
Where do you think the name of that subgenre comes from, faggot? Fucking reddit casuals.

>>21362625
dont see what that has to do with him having a cool name.
>>21362638
retard alert. BotNS and Dying earth have little in common BESIDES taking place in a "latter earth" setting.
Vance its much more focused on creating evocative dreamlike pictures and sensations in the moment, while Wolfe is more investigative and trying to tease out connections as you read. I would think you would read them if you want different things.

>>21362707
>Dying earth
Wolfe fanboy literally sees dying earth and only thinks of vance instead of the entire genre
I'm talking about the dying earth subgenre, retard

>>21362697
Never heard of this guy, so probably a nobody. You are as tiresome as idiots who discredit Tolkien because Dunsany came before. yawn.
>>21362687
Seethe. You cannot refute me.

Never red anything so pretentious. Wolfey might is well of filled the pages with cum instead of words

>>21362715
Maybe its a bit hard to tell when the literal title of Vance's series is "The Dying Earth"

when you (or who) said
>BOTNS=Dying earth for zoomer babbies
that makes me think you are refering to one series being another series for __.

then I thought you were transitioning to the subgenres as a whole for the second statement. also, you (or who) stop massposting.

>>21362728
>Never heard of this guy, so probably a nobody.
Splendid logic, retard.
>You are as tiresome as idiots who discredit Tolkien because Dunsany came before. yawn.
Huh? And you're like the idiots who discredit Jack Vance because Gene Wolfe is marginally more known in sci-fi circles (not even mainstream ones).

>>21359681
This series is 2deep4u bullshit. The author himself has literally admitted most of the shit has no meaning. He just writes strange allegorical-sounding passages with no underlying meaning, and pseuds eat it up; they'd rather pretend to understand it than admit they don't. Thing is, there's nothing there to understand.

>>21362728
you are embarrassing. I hope this is a gaslight.

>>21362768
Seething Vancetranny. Nobody gives a fuck about Vance. Wolfe pioneered (check out the word) a whole genre meanwhile.

>>21362789
>Jack Vance wrote the short story collection The Dying Earth. The collection had several sequels and gave the subgenre its name.
Vance's works gave the name to the entire subgenre. Cope and seethe, wolfecuck.

>>21362810
>wikipedia
Lemayo
>gave it its name
Big fucking deal. Hope Hodgson is prolly more influential than Lovecraft then huh

>>21362822
I remain unrefuted. Also, you're talking about Wolfe as if he was as influential as Tolkien and Lovecraft and not just a 4chan meme kek it's kind of cute.

>wolfefags are now claiming that wolfe invented the dying earth subgenre and that vance and ashton smith and hodgson never existed
Wolfe fans are so fucking insecure

>>21362778
this
>The thorn was a sacred Claw because all thorns were sacred Claws; the sand in my boots was sacred sand because it came from a beach of sacred sand.....everything had approached and even touched the Pancreator, because everything had dropped from his hand. Everything was a relic. All the world was a relic. I drew off my boots, that had traveled with me so far, and threw them into the waves that I might not walk shod on holy ground.
Wolfefags consider this deep prose. Wolfefags have literally converted to catholicism after reading this hideously written pseudo intellectual dreck

>>21362778
>The author himself has literally admitted most of the shit has no meaning.
Interesting. Where did he admit this?

>>21362687
What's the best rendition?

>>21362880
>Wolfefags have literally converted to catholicism after reading this
yes I did

>>21363092
An interview where he says something like "There is no true meaning; it means different things to every reader. Even when I'm writing it I don't know what the truth is." Which essentially means it doesn't mean anything.

>>21359681
the only thing chesterton was ever in the throes of is a brisket binge

>>21363303
A video interview or a text interview?

>>21363250
>yes I did

>>21362880
>Wolfefags have literally converted to catholicism
Surely they have not. I read the entire thing and could not see how it is a Catholic book

>>21363523
anything that has a wiff of transcendental Idealism gets accusations of Catholicism.

>>21360001
>People judge this without reading the entire series
I did and I'd say the first entry is probably the most solid, if anything because the intro in the citadel manages to create an oppressive and suggestive atmosphere, all the bullshit that happens afterward at least shows some promise, and it is short enough so you don't get too tired of severian being a boring prick
Rest of the series in memorable but only in a sci-fi way, as in it scratches that itch for cool ideas and that's it, especially since they don't really get any development and for the most part are there just to add color to the world and serve as a little diversion and roadbump on the plot and then proceed to the next set piece (wow an ancient emperor who prolonged his life by becoming a two-headed freak. I wonder where this is goi- he killed him, move along)
The only outstanding part was the storytelling competition between three guys to get a girl,and one guy from a dystopian hellhole who can oly talk thriugh propaganda slogans. That was quite brilliant and although I would not say it warrants the comparison with say Borges at least I would understand that more than the reviews in the OP. Whoever wrote those only knows that Proust has good prose and Chesterton was a Catholic and has not read either

>>21362625
Based grammar nazi correcting the midwits who referred to Gene Wolfe in the present tense.

>>21363859
>authors stop existing when they die
"No."

>>21363801
>-he killed him, move along
There's more to Typhon than that. Much more.

>>21364051
I'm sure there is I just have to read the description of that item and then hit the fake wall and oh wait

>>21364076
I was referencing the sequels. Typhon makes a comeback as a god emperor.

>>21364076
I wish there was a dying earth souls game for me to cum on

>>21364085
>I was referencing the sequels
You mean urth of the new sun? I have that one but could not stomach more wolfe after the dreck that came before. My bad for not sitting through the whole thing but I was lead to believe that the first four were the ones to read so I did not bother with the fifth since I did not enjoy the series one bit

>>21364103
No, long sun and short sun. I am sorry you did not enjoy Wolfe.

>>21363911
yes

>>21364116
>long sun and short sun
Wait there are seven more novels?! And you are also supposed to read them multiple times? Fuck me I'm out lord knows I've tried but there's a reason I bailed out of fantasy and science fiction

>>21364133
No, because their work still exists. "Gene Wolfe is a bad writer." Nothing wrong with that.

>>21364116
Good man!
>>21364141
Bad thing!
Jokes aside, nobody should give up with Urth. That's just the first half of the Cycle. Think of it as an intro, a cool little story to get you used to unreliable narrators with multiple identities. If you think Severian's story is complicated, wait until you read Rajan's story, which he wrote in non-linear manner. Also, he never tells you he's fine with his readers pussying out.
If you want a general feel of the latter half of the series, reread chapter from the 2nd book called 'Eschatology and Genesis'.

>>21362880
Gene Wolfe was detrimental in my acceptance of theism. I was a cringelord atheist before his works taught me who Jesus Christ is.

>>21359681
I guess I got filtered. I just finished this book today and it really felt like a chore to complete. It wasn't a bad book, but it just seemed aimless and a bit boring. The world building is a little fun, and there are some interesting ideas, but it just wasn't enough to be compelling. It sounds like there is some deeper meaning you pick up on a 2nd reading or after completing the other 4 books. Since I didn't enjoy the first book, I don't think I'll move onto the other books.

>>21364849
There is no meaning according to the author. It's a messy failure.

>>21364853
Then why do wolfefags say there is?

>lived long enough to see the /lit/ contrarian whirlwind turn on wolfe

>>21365017
if cormac mccarthy's suddenly bad, then certainly gene wolfe's turn was coming

>>21362519
>>21362551
What are some examples of speculation gone too far in BoTNS? It seems like most of the "big questions" raised throughout the series are mostly resolved by the end of Citadel, and even more so in Urth.

>>21365041
Not them, but I've always wondered what Father Inire's deal was. What the hell is he? He doesn't seem like the other Hierodules. I saw some speculation that he is actually Tzadkiel or at least a part of him that budded off. It adds to the mystery too that he is gone in Urth.

>>21365017
>people are tired of Dark Souls after Smellden Ring
>people are suddenly tired of BotNS
Coincidence?

>>21362876
Botns won the poll for the best fantasy after Tolkien. The poll was run by a very knowledgeable bunch and has some legitimacy. He is extremely popular in this niche of writing and very influential. Cope.

Gene Wolfe's first contribution to engineering was the Pringles machine.

The second was a cutting edge filtration system disguised as a book.

>>21365041
>It seems like most of the "big questions" raised throughout the series are mostly resolved by the end of Citadel, and even more so in Urth.
Explain the Atrium of Time, and Severian's observations about Valeria in her home at the end of book 4.

>>21359681
actually, it's a good book

>>21365378
The third was the book-shaped toilet paper.

>>21365385
prove it fagit

The wizard knight was atrocious. Is this better than that?

>>21362693
>nothing unique in Wolfe
This is contrarian pseud posturing; you can dislike New Sun without baldly denying how unique it is. Nobody has ever written anything like it.
Plus the guy is dumbly saying "Wolfe" as if referring to his entire career when he's only talking about New Sun.
>Mieville, or Moorcock
Hahaha. Might as well list Martin and Rowling in there. This guy is trying to flex his reading credentials but fails to mention Hodgson, Smith, or Vance. Why in god's name would a person expect Wolfe to read like Peake or Leiber? Because he's a poser. It's strong evidence right off the hop that this guy is a consumer of mainstream and conventional fantasy, and quite simply too stupid for Shadow of the Torturer.
>I kept waiting for something to happen, but it never really did. It all plods along without much rise or fall, just the constant moving action to make us think something interesting is happening.
He kept waiting for something to happen, but it never did, because all that happens is "constant moving action"? This is incoherent. Please don't tell me you rate this guy's opinion on literature.
>his annoying prick of a narrator
Another 'Severian is evil because he occasionally has sex' guy. Many such cases and never fails to make me chuckle.
>I never found the book to be difficult or complex, merely tiring. the unusual parts were evasive and vague
>The whole structure (or lack of it) does leave things up to interpretation
Another blatant contradiction that belies the truth here. He got filtered and is trying to save face.
I get that New Sun isn't some people's cup of tea, but for most of you, the real issue couldn't be said more loudly and clearly: You are not capable of understanding or appreciating something this complex.

>>21365409
it's even worse.

>>21365364
>Botns won the poll for the best fantasy after Tolkien. The poll was run by a very knowledgeable bunch and has some legitimacy. He is extremely popular in this niche of writing and very influential. Cope.

>>21365438
>Nobody has ever written anything like it.
what makes it unique? unreliable narrator? it was already done by then. use of archaic language? it was already done by then. dying earth? done before. christian themes in a fantasy novel? done before. medieval future? done before.
> It's strong evidence right off the hop that this guy is a consumer of mainstream and conventional fantasy, and quite simply too stupid for Shadow of the Torturer.
Couldn't be more wrong. He doesn't like Rowling or Martin and thinks Tolkien is middling.

>>21365438
>This is contrarian pseud posturing; you can dislike New Sun without baldly denying how unique it is. Nobody has ever written anything like it.
Cope
There is nothing unique in wolfe
It's literally just Zothique+Vance's dying earth with DUDE LE UNRELIABLE NARRATOR
>Hahaha. Might as well list Martin and Rowling in there. This guy is trying to flex his reading credentials but fails to mention Hodgson, Smith, or Vance. Why in god's name would a person expect Wolfe to read like Peake or Leiber? Because he's a poser. It's strong evidence right off the hop that this guy is a consumer of mainstream and conventional fantasy, and quite simply too stupid for Shadow of the Torturer.
Even Leiber's shittiest writing is ten times better than anything wolfe wrote
>all your other points
Retarded
Wolfe is for retards who think dark souls is "deep" and were filtered by Vance's workmanlike prose

Jack Vance didn't write his Dying Earth series. It was ghostwritten by Gene Wolfe. Vance confessed to it in his book This is Me, Jack Vance!, but I guess no one read it, and it's why a Dying Earth omnibus shows up in BOTNS.

>>21360841
>Every character you meet in the story turns up again, hundreds of miles away, to reveal that they are someone else and have been secretly controlling the action of the plot.
Not true. Go ahead and name all the characters who fit this description.
>It feels like the entire world is populated by about fifteen people who follow the narrator around wherever he goes.
Name the 15 characters.
>If the next two books continue along the same lines, then the big reveal will be that the world is entirely populated by no more than three superpowered shapeshifters.
Did he ever follow up on this? I doubt it because he would have to walk his lies and exaggerations back.
>Everyone in the book has secret identities, secret connections to grand conspiracies, and important plot elements that they conveniently hide until the last minute, only doling out clues here and there.
False. Name the characters and give examples.
>Every analysis I've read of this book mentions that even the narrator is unreliable.
This is an astonishing statement given that he's apparently halfway through the series at the time of writing it. He's ass deep in the story and needs "analysis" to explain what he's reading to him.
>This can be an effective technique
Again, a very telling statement that should be making someone reading his review raise their eyebrows. It "can be" an effective technique? Well, is it?? You are reading the story! You are the reviewer! Tell us whether you think it is an effective technique, based on your reading.
He honest to god can't, because he's an unwitting Dunning-Kruger case study who was not capable of a meaningful reading of New Sun.
>Wolfe's story begins to evoke something between a soap opera and a convoluted mystery novel, relying on impossible and contradictory scenarios to mislead the audience. Apparently, this is the thing his fans most appreciate about him—I find it to be an insulting and artificial game.
This like when you have to write the essay the night before it's due. He has no grasp of the material and nothing to say, and is trying to meet a word count. This continues to the end of the post. Everyone who went to post-secondary school knows what bullshitting like this is, and how to do it.
But the next two parts stand out enough to comment.
>There is simply not enough structure to the story to make the narrator's unreliability meaningful. In order for unreliable narration to be effective, there must be some clear and evident counter-story that undermines it.
I highlight this because he fails to provide any examples from the text to back up his argument.
>I know most sci-fi and fantasy authors seem to love complexity for its own sake
Likewise. Give us examples of the other authors. Give us examples from New Sun. Compare and contrast. Again, he is bullshitting.

>>21365532
He doesn't give evidence if he doesn't want to. The burden of proof lies on the accused.

>>21365017
You can only blame yourself. Had you kept to yourself in the /sffg/ nobody would care and you coild run away with the lie that wolfe transcends genre and becomes literature, but if you start recommending him bringing out fucking proust people are going to get curious and be sorely disappointed once they find out you were talking out your ass

>>21365586
I don't know what coild means

>>21360858
>But reading, for me, is never an easy thing.
>And yet I am the one who writes the reviews, whose mind whirls and reels with layered meanings and critical analysis. So I keep reading, though it is can be a chore, as my brain must always perk up and churn along, processing and considering.
Frigging hilarious m8. Dude is shouldering the world of literary criticism like Atlas, fr, smdh. The layered analyses are just whizzing by his head a mile a minute, whirling like a whirlwind, oh my god, he can't keep up with them, but somehow he musters the energy to drag order, kicking and screaming, from chaos - for us, the uncomprehending goodreads masses.

>>21365383
NTA, but:
In Urth, it's confirmed that Solar Cycle universe's spaceships are also time travel devices. Moving through space also moves you through time, sometines in unexpected ways.
Also in Urth, Severian admits he married Valeria, and he almost wrote her out of his book out of respect for her.
In Green's Jungles canonically states the Citadel was made of spaceships. Atrium of Time was probably somethingike SETI, but for catching messages through time, not just space.

>>21365586
BASED
wolfefags seething

>>21365661
How did you know?

>>21365634
That doesn't explain anything you fucking nigger.

>>21365674
>N word
I knew it. Racists often have too low IQ to understand Gene Wolfe unlike me (a high IQ person).

Gene Wolfe is a dumb person's idea of a complex author.

>>21365704
based

>>21365704
redpilled

>>21365704
KEKW

The amount of samefagging in this thread is unreal. Wolfe really did a number on this guy.
Any further coping and seething can be directed to pic related.

>>21365729
Seething wolfefag

>>21365729
Malding wolfefrog

>makes wolfetrannies seethe and cope for all eternity
Kneel

>>21365385
Op didn’t say it was a bad book just that the reasons people say it is good are bullshit.

>>21365762
This. So much this.

>>21365698
I read all those books. I know everything you posted. It's tangentially related to my question at best. It doesn't explain who Valeria is, why her family is important, why Severian married her. You don't directly reference any of the passages from the end of book 4. You don't connect anything about the spaceships directly to the Atrium of Time. You offer nothing.

>>21365017
Because you niggers pretended it was better than the Bible. It’s a good book but the flaws are obvious to anyone not blinded by hype. The fact that Wolfe had to write a sequel years later to tie up loose ends is proof enough that book 4 needed more time in the oven.

>>21365769
You responded to the wrong person. Understandable. I should've mentioned I'm not that Anonymous who you were responding to. Also I didn't read either of your posts.

>>21365470
Are you retarded? Everything was already done by 1200s, why write literature then? You have a child's understanding of how literature works.
Show me one other work that mixes all of that as a complete whole.

>>21362789
Have you never heard of vancian magic

>>21365586
>>21365771
This.

>>21365784
BASED

>>21365779
Explain what makes it unique, then.

>>21365779
>Show me one other work that mixes all of that as a complete whole.
By that logic all works are unique. Fucking retard.

>>21365787
Never before seen combination of words.

>>21365798
Whoa, just like John Green!

>>21365787
Unreliable narrator mixed with catholic reworkings mixed with dying earth mixed with medieval fantasy mixed with science fiction.
Name another series that both mixes all those AND reads similar to BOTNS. Until then it is unique.

>>21365801
John Green?

>>21365804
Yea, he's unique like Gene Wolfe!

>>21365805
Can you explain who John Green is? I don't spend 24/7 on TikTok or whatever it's called.

this book filtered me hard at some parts but regardless I think it’s ridiculous how they build up severian returning home just to have the autarch show up and die so they could wrap things up.

>>21365807
It's a complex author like Gene Wolfe! He writes unique literature. Find me another novel with a girl who's dying of cancer and meets a new possible boyfriend and that is titled after a line from Shakespeare's Julius Caesar. Until then it is unique.

>>21365807
YA author who also has a blog and a shitty educational channel

>>21365802
>Unreliable narrator mixed with catholic reworkings
None of those are good
>mixed with dying earth mixed with medieval fantasy mixed with science fiction
Dying earth is literally medieval fantasy mixed with science fiction you pseud retard

>>21365778
I should have also mentioned that I'm an interdimensional transsexual and your soul-reflection from the future-past. I have also rewritten this post to omit the fact that you have consented. Forgive me, reader, your journey is a tough one!

>>21365794
You are low IQ. By your retarded logic no work is unique because it is written in a comprehensible language that was already formed before the work is written. Yes retard, books are chimeras. A new one is mix of the others that came before it. Read Julie Kristeva's treatise on writing. BOTNS has familiar elements from books that have come before just like every piece of art produced by the human mind; but its method is different from all those others.

>>21365825
>Find me a [...]
Why don't you do it? I'm in bed, wearing PJs, and I'm going to sleep soon. I'm tired right now.

>>21365595
Owned

>>21365829
You are retarded. It still makes it unique no matter how much it might put you pn your period.

>>21365830
This isn't me. Someone is pretending to be me.

>>21365836
Until then it is unique, like Gene Wolfe.

Why are wolfe fanboys so insecure? Why do they go into a frothing rage whenever their slightly better than average but still medicore book series is critcised? why do they pretend BOTNS is some sort of holy mystic text when it's literally just dying earth with some cringey catholic subtext and le unreliable narrator

>>21365834
There are unique works of fiction. BOTNS is just not one of them.

>>21365834
No. The book is clearly trying to be derivative on purpose hence all the mythology and religious references.

>>21365842
The room is a unique movie, it doesn't mean it's good. Call of the crocodile is a unique book, it doesn't mean its good
BOTNS is trash

>>21365846
You mean John Green is unique like Gene Wolfe?

>>21365847
based

>>21365851
Name them.

>>21365847
kek they're delusional, I really don't know why they suck his dick so much. They are like actual religious fanatics.

>>21365854
what makes botns trash? I enjoyed it I just think it is just overrated.

>>21365853
>religious references are derivative
Lmao. Ulysses is probably the most derivative piece of media ever then. Everything is a reference to something else, every chapter is based on a different writing style from past or present.

>>21365865
based

>>21365869
Ulysses is unique. BOTNS isn't.

>>21365866
Pseudshit plagiarism of vance and smith with some shitty catholic themes, badly written and self indulgent

>>21365872
This.

>>21365823
Fuck me that was stupid. Had that happened halfway through the first book pretty much nothing would have changed

>>21365869
Yes but some works borrow more than others. It’s pretty clear wolfes thing is recycling borges and catholic stuff in sci-fi settings.

>BOTNS fans are literally comparing their shitty self indulgent catholic circlejerk book to Ulysses
these people are fucking delusional

>>21365872
>"no no it is unique because so and so but this other thing isn't because so and so"
Shut up tranny.

>>21365873
red pilled

I agree

>>21365878
Learn2read.

>>21365878
Based

Preach, brother.

>>21365882
You're comparing a shitty sff book to Ulysses by James Joyce
You're fucking delusional. This is why people make fun of BOTNS fans. if you just said you liked BOTNS nobody would care but you retards pretend it's a holy text that's on the level of Joyce and Proust and Borges

>>21365876
Borges himself borrowed from idealist philosophers, scriptures and his mentor Macedonio Fernandez. Wolfe can't steal from Borges what never belonged to Jorge. That's the point you fucking retard, no writer invents in a vacuum, they only appropriate elements from what has come before. It seems to me that for midwits originality means how obscure a writer's influences are.

>>21365878
Next thing they'll say it's better than the Bible. I had never seen such insane fandom on /lit/. I rarely visit /ssfg/ because they are all obsessed about that Canadian faggot but I had no idea wolfefags were so delusional. It's sad at this point.

>>21365885
Redpilled. Smh Wolfefags thinking its Ulysses by Joyce of all people. What a delusional bunch.

>>21365885
Learn2read, retard. It is called an analogy. And 100 bux say that you can't for your life, and any dicksuck essay you may write, prove how Ulysses is unique by your metric and Botns isn't.

>>21365890
>Next thing they'll say it's better than the Bible.
Seeing as Wolfe fanboys have literally converted to catholicism after reading Wolfe's shitty prose, yes, these people think BOTNS is equivalent to the bible. They're fucking delusional and get really mad when you even slightly criticise their shitty book/
>>21365894
I don't have to prove anything to a retard who thinks BOTNS is equivalent to Ulysses

>>21365891
>>21365883
>>21365880
>>21365871
>>21365860
>>21365801
>>21365785
>>21365765
Are you some malding man-female?

>>21365890
This. These fags are so delusional. They think BOTNS is a good book, but they don't know that it's not.

>>21365896
>who thinks BOTNS is equivalent to Ulysses
Learn2read retard.

>>21365896
were these retards always here? I only noticed them until now

>>21365873
I still think it was a fun journey up until he started introducing characters like little severian just to kill them off a few chapters later because he ran out of things to do with them.

>>21365851
Still waiting on this>>21365861

>>21365902
This. Where did these days even come from? Reddit?

>>21365900
>>21365904
Learn to read better fiction, faggot
Wolfe was a fat hack who couldn't write for shit
>>21365902
They've always been here they've just gotten even more and more delusional and cancerous over the years, they try to shill their shitty book on /tv/ as well

what is with the autists (or autist?) making this anti-wolfe threads
pretty silly to see posts from someone who clearly hasn't read the book seemingly mad about it being popular on /lit/

>>21365909
>nothing
As expected from a recessed chin book hating tranny faggot.

>>21365916
Wolfefag is fuming over his bad book facing the criticism it deserves

>>21365909
based and redpilled

Wolfe was obese and they still say his books are good.

>>21362561
Start with Shadow and Claw (the first two) and read Sword and Citadel too unless you really didn't like it.
There are four books in BotNS (usually sold in two volumes), but in the larger series there is a total of 12 plus some novellas.
I've only read BotNS and the coda Urth, but I would've have gotten the rest if I could find some decent hardcovers

>>21365915
So you can't criticise Wolfe now? So wolfe is some perfect faultless author who can't face any criticism or scrutiny?

>>21365918
This

>>21362561
It's not dark fantasy. It's a fat catholic author and his self insert plagiarising jack vance and writing muh unreliable narrator to compensate for his shitty prose.
>>21365920
Kill yourself wolfefag

>>21359681
i love a good BOTNS hate thread
>that moment OP realizes his post has just as little substance as the reviews he's bashing

>>21365924
What's with Wolfefags thinking Wolfe is somehow out of every author who ever existed exempt from criticism? These "people" are delusional.

>>21365924
>So you can't criticise Wolfe now?
WHO SAID this? Wolfe has been getting nonstop hate on this board for over half a decade at least, you're a newfag to pretend otherwise

>>21365918
RECESSES CHIN. TRANNY FAGGOT

>>21365935
>WHO SAID this?
This entire thread is full of seething wolfefags unable to take criticism
Apparently if you're not praising the book to the high heavens and pretending BOTNS is equivalent to James Joyce and Proust then you need to "learn to read"

>>21365941
Based. That's what I've been saying.

>>21365941
>>21365586
>>21365885
“there are pages, there are chapters of Marcel Proust that are unacceptable as inventions, and we unwittingly resign ourselves to them as we resign ourselves to the insipidity and emptiness of each day.” --- Jorge Luis Borges


"To be absolutely honest, apart from the opening volume of Proust, I find him crushingly dull." --- Kazuo Ishiguro


"I have read some pages of his. I cannot see any special talent." --- James Joyce in a 1920 letter to Frank Budgen


"I am reading Proust for the first time. Very poor stuff. I think he was mentally defective." --- Evelyn Waugh


"Prout Proust, who was half ghost, immersed himself with extraordinary tenacity in the infinitely watery futility of the rites and procedures that entwine the members of high society, those denizens of the void, those phantoms of desire, those irresolute daisy-chainers still waiting for their Watteau, those listless seekers after implausible Cythereas.
300 pages to learn tutu is sodomizing toto.... it's too much" --- Louis Ferdinand Celine


"Proust? That's not literature" --- Cormac McCarthy

>>21365937
The wolfefag is truly mindbroken. Unable to respond to criticism of his shitty sci fi novel he uncontrollably seethes and starts projecting
Oh, and the "based" wolfe you obessess over? He was a fat, glasses wearing faggot with a recessed chin
Cope more

>>21362561
Book of the new sun is a series of four books:
Shadow of the torturers
Claw of the conciliator
Sword of the lictor
Citadel of the autarch

However you have to read urth of the new sun to get the full story so it really isn’t a standalone series.

>>21365952
Then you are like him, save the intelligence and writing talent.

>>21365952
based

>>21365956
Cope wolfefag
>>21365954
Book of the new sun is a series of badly written books that plagiarise vance and smith

>>21365960
>Clark ashton smith
>the 2nd rate Lovecraft
Lol there is nothing to plagiarize.

>>21365960
KEKW

>>21365949
So the comparison of wolfe to proust was about how he is dull, insipid and not literature? I guess I get it now

Okay, I'm getting bored of trolling about hating Wolfe. I'll confess to something. I never read Gene Wolfe, Jack Vance, or Clark Ashton Smith. Doing this was just something to amuse myself.

>>21365978
Based and redpilled

How is this a Catholic series?

>>21366004
Severian is a Jesus stand-in

>>21362561
I was thinking about making a guide chart.
There's 12 novels and several short stories which I haven't read yet. Once I do, I'll make it.
Start with the Book of the New Sun and ask yourself do you want a genuine experience full of mindfuck and details you miss, making you need to reread the series once you're done or do you want to read it as a done deal, with most things explained?
If you want a surprise (it will be a bad surprise, most people give up because nothing in these books is explained outright), start with the Shadow of the Torturer.
If you want to spoil yourself and read the series like a historian would read historical fiction, read Lexicon Urthus first.
If you think you'll hate Severian and his style of narration and want something more impersonal set in the same universe, skip BotNS and start with the Book of the Long Sun, continue with the Book of the Short Sun, read Gate of Horn, Book of Silk, and then read BotNS.
Almost nobody has read BotLS or BotSS, so you'll get very little feedback on /lit/ or even reddit.

>>21366007
How? I don't see it at all

>>21366004
Silk is a Moses stand-in

>>21364217
Oh my god it is always like this with you sci-fi guys isn't it? There is always one more book, nay, one more series you have to read, I swear it gets good
Eye of the world is 800 pages of dull derivative dreck? Too bad, power through it, it is necessary set up for the third book, then and only then it get a good. And if it doesn't there is always the fourth. Eventually it is bound to click, if anything by virtue of the sunk cost fallacy. And if you drop the series you still can't criticize it because you did not give it a fair chance
At what point does something stop being a rewarding reading and just becomes Stockholm syndrome?
I think the most frustrating thing about you guys is that you are never fans of the genre, but only of that ip you chose to waste your life on, staying utterly ignorant of everything else that surrounds it. No different from a star wars need who will babble on and on about the more of kotor while never having even seen a flash Gordon episode.
One would be lead to expect better from the literature board, but I guess I should have realized how dire the situation is when halfway through the thread anons started comparing the appeal of botns to fucking videogames
Well here's a vidya quote from you. You know the definition of madness?

>>21364141
>reading is hard

>>21366070
based

>my first time on /lit/
>oh boy a Gene Wolfe thread! Finally I can discuss these books I enjoyed reading
>?????
>Oh no
Welp, that's it for me, I guess

>>21366104
Please throw me a bone here. How is this series a Catholic masterwork? How is the prose proustian? What's so enjoyable about it aside for finding a couple of ideas neat amongst the endless barrage of half-baked concepts that go nowhere and serve no purpose aside for being mildly entertaining in the moment?
Don't resort to name calling. Don't just tell me you need to reread it. And for fucks sake don't bring up videogames

>>21366125
You seem to think I posted in this thread before, and you're continuing to have some ongoing conversation with someone else. This was my first post, and I didn't respond to anything posted here. But since you're asking me directly, I've heard that some people say BoTNS was heavily influenced by Wolfe's Catholicism, but it's difficult for me to properly judge that since I’m Orthodox (not a convert), and not very well versed in Catholic theology. From my own limited understanding of religious themes, I recognized that Severian is revealed to be a Christophany of himself in the end, and I guess that’s pretty Catholic. I think that Catholicism is sort of grandfathered into his works through R.A. Lafferty also, whom Wolfe considered to be his inspiration, as I recall. I’ve never read Proust, so I can’t comment on how Wolfe’s prose is like his, but I enjoyed reading Wolfe very much. He’s very evocative and good at describing particular emotional states that I could identify with.
>amongst the endless barrage of half-baked concepts that go nowhere and serve no purpose
Like what? I think everything is rounded off pretty well in the end of BoTNS, even if you don’t take UoTNS into consideration. It’s a diary of Severian’s journey from his POV, and doesn’t switch narratives, so it doesn’t need to follow up on literally every bit of implied lore or concept he comes across. Your post is just giving me the impression you’re actively looking to take a stance against Wolfe (who’s written a number of great things besides BoTNS) just because more and more people are getting into his books because of Landshark.

I just think he's neat

>>21365931
Why you have to be mad?

>>21365954
>You have to read urth of the new sun to get the full story
Not really desu

>>21366177
>Landshark
le gay twitter e celeb
kill yourself

>>21359681
Wolfe in general 'rewards' rereading because he enjoys making something intelligible only by knowing something from later in a book and paying attention to details.

>>21366177
>Landshark
I have no idea what that is. I have no horse in this race nor a particular bone to pick with the author. I was lead to believe that this series was not only good but comparable to high lit. I read it and found out that was a lie. No big deal, some are winners some are not, but when I come into a wolfe thread and ask the fans to substantiate the claims that made me pick up the series and all they can master is some vague greatness that escapes me or resort to shitflinging that's when I start to feel cheated>>21366177
>Like what?
For instance the kid he takes with him after the monster killed the whole family. You'd expect a relationship to be formed and developed across the following books but nope he dies a few pages later and it's like he never existed afterwards. The super special claw he brought with him for three books? It comes in handy in a couple of plot relevant instances and then he just gives it back to its owners and is never mentioned again as far as I remember. His meeting with the autarch, which should be the culmination of his journey? It just happens almost by chance just in time for him to die in an unrelated event and for severian to take his place as ruler of the world. Here's your epic conclusion bro
Maybe if this was sold to me as a series of pulpy shirt stories a la conan I wouldn't be so sore about wasting my time but as is I can't help but feel like I've fallen victim to some practical joke concocted by the /sffg/

>>21366177
The catholicism in it only goes as far as Wolfe's catholicism, which is hollow fantasy worldbuilding.

Member Vodalus?
Member the exultants?
Member Master Ultan's library? Member that crystal which holds more books than entire libraries?
Member the ape men?
Member House Absolute?
Member the theater?
Member the rape?
Member Jonas?
Member the armigers?
Member the alzabo?
Member the zoanthrops?
Member Typhon and Python?
Member Barbatus, Famulimus and Ossipago?
Member Baldanders?
Member the falchion?
Member the revolver?
Member Loyal to the Group of Seventeen?
Member the Green Man?
Member the homunculus in the jar?
Member when there weren't so many cacogens?
Member Tzadkiel?
Member the ghost in the armor?
Member Valeria?
Member Apu Punchau?
Member the ball game?
Member when Silk was mooching off Blood?
Member Oreb?
Member the dead prostitute?
Member the azoth?
Member Mucor?
Member the lynxes?
Member Dr. Crane?
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Member the windows?
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Member the all-female bisexual army?
Member the Mainframe?
Member the suicide attempt?
Member the teenage sex?
Member Quetzal?
Member when there were only white people in the story?
Member the Lizard Island?
Member Babbie?
Member the rape?
Member the dozens of concubines?
Member Krait?
Member the dead husbands?
Member the lusty maid? Who did she fuck?
Member Duko Rigoglio?
Member the rape?
Member Jahlee?
Member Pig? I didn't understand a word he said.
Member the surgery?

>>21366271
>It comes in handy in a couple of plot relevant instances and then he just gives it back to its owners and is never mentioned again as far as I remember.
Thanks for outing yourself as a speed reader and a 100% brainlet. Wolfe is unironically too complex for you.

>>21362858
you have been refuted multiple times plebbit tranny.

>>21365931
>plagiarizing
you are not fooling anyone discord cuck

>>21365919
t. samefagging tranny

>>21366589
Wolfe is shit, can't believe I was tricked into reading this garbage. The next year there's a "top 100" book list on this board, we're voting this hack the fuck off it.

>>21359681
>BOTNS
You're on a writing board. Write out what you mean.

>>21365474
>literally no arguments
nice concession tranny

>>21365017
it's one buttblasted tranny who kvetches over catholicism.

>>21365704
>>21365712
>>21365715
>>21365727
>>21365755
>>21365762
>>21365765
t. samefagging tranny

>>21365943
>>21365941
t. samefagging tranny
there is no better prove that anti wolfefag is dicord troon

>>21366593
>we
take your meds samefagging tranny.

>>21365586
>becomes literature
You mean literary

>>21365532
Thank you. Reading each sentence that fag wrote was like having my teeth pulled. He's such a midwit it's painful.

BotNS is legit a masterpiece.

>>21366720
>BotNS is legit a masterpiece.
Explain why, retard.

>>21366271
Agreed except for the claw. It wasn’t that wasted.

>>21366271
Typhoon was also wasted

>>21366720
>BotNS is legit a masterpiece.
kek

>>21366177
I'm Catholic (born and raised) and I think BOTNS is pretty bad. All the criticisms that Keely brought up are true.

>>21366996
Yeah I mentioned that too earlier and a link got as response is that he comes back for yet another sequel trilogy so fuck that

>>21367122
Another trilogy AND quadrilogy. No skipping the Long Sun, son.
>>21366988
He wasn't wasted. He's done more for Urthlings than Severian did. Read the books.

>>21367473
it doesn’t matter what he did in the latter books it won’t change the fact he hyped himself up as this guy who is going to conquer the world a 2nd time only for him to die like a bitch five minutes later. His appearance in botns was pointless and underwhelming. Also if botns doesn’t make sense without reading the sequels then it should not be billed as a self contained sub series

>>21366016
>read dictionaries and timelines to get everything spoiled when half the fun of the Cycle is piecing together what’s going on and hanging on for the ride
Coal
Besides, other than Short Sun the books are nowhere near as complicated as people act, anyone can still follow the main plot without much trouble. If someone’s going to have a breakdown because a metaphysical aside wasn’t 100% crystal clear, they shouldn’t be reading Wolfe in the first place

>>21359681
>How is this a review in any way? They are just throwing names and references around without saying anything except that is is HOLY FREAKING EPIC.
You have a good point.

>>21360272
>Wolfe is a hack
Wolfe is a genius. Wolfe isn't so much a deep thinker as a perspective skew thinker. He is a very careful, rational writer, yet a very humorous writer. His jokes are sincere, and easy if you understand the skew. We're not intended to understand the skew immediately.

>>21367777
Kek

>>21367799
No kek about it. Here are two examples from TV Tropes:

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Fridge/BookOfTheNewSun
>The narrator discusses a guild of beast trainers, and gives the detail that supposedly they forsake women andtake animals as spouses. While this actually wouldn't be too odd, since there is also a guild oftorturers, the fanon theory that the narrator was confused about the term "animal husbandry" makes a lot of sense, given that there are several otherFuture Imperfectexamples in the novel.-Jordan
>
>The purpose of the great wall at Thrax only became apparent to me on a second reading of the novel. The wall is actually the face of a large hydroelectric dam. Everything Severian describes about Thrax (the city of windowless rooms, since it is in a gorge and uses the abundant hydroelectic power for lighting) is consistent with this explanation. The jail is in one of the now unused bypass tunnels for the dam. Severian describe everything accurately but is to uneducated to really understand it. Lake Diaturna is the reservoir behind the dam.

I LOVE shit like that. Reading something like this isn't just entertaining, it exercises the mind. It calls for a re-examining of the real world, our past, our present, and our future. Just like we can't trust Severian, we shouldn't trust ourselves. Our understanding will always be incomplete. Enter faith.

>>21367832
>TV tropes

>>21359681
>People say that BOTNS is good because it references the classics
I don't think anybody has said this ever

>>21368156
he quoted people that did compare it to the classics however

>>21367473
How many of these faggot books do you need to read to comprehend the plot. Long son, short sun, new sun, gay sun. I'd rather just stick to the classics than read pseudointellectual homo drivel.

>>21368498
There are 12 novels a few short stories and some essays... Sorry, bro. It's all or nothing.

>>21359681
>How is this a review in any way?
Its not, it's simply a flavourful description the writer though to be apt.

>>21359720
One major influence on New Sun was Proust for example. There is also some Dickens, among others.

Ive read these 5 times. My IQ is now 200 I am tall handsome and white

>>21368536
And major influences on the novel I'm writing are video games and hentai. Do I want people to analyze that even after I die? No.
>>21368546
You should have spent a portion of that time reading the remaining 8 novels. You would become tall, nearsighted, one-eyed and you'd walk with a stick. But hey, at least you'd be rocking silvery long hair despite being in your early 40's.

>>21368152
jesus christ anon this is a family-friendly board you can't go posting this stuff

>>21366038
That's the point